What if Yamcha survived the Saibaiman

[Dragon Sponge]

What would happen if Yamcha realized that the beaten Saibaiman wasen't dead, dodged his grabbing Attack and gave him the finishing Blow right afterward, as it was ilustrated in this Fanart here:

http://bk-81.deviantart.com/art/One-mom ... -150612321

Would it prevent Krillin from destroying all the remaining Saibaimen by himself so that the other Fighters would fight the ramaining Saibais one by one? If yes how would Son Gohan and Chiaozu fare in their Saibaiman Battles? Would the longer Fight help Son Goku to return in Time to save everybody? And how would Yamcha contribut to the Nappa Fight? Would his Sokidan Attack be useful against Nappa and could he possebly alter how the Fight went out?

What do you Guys think?

[floofychan333]

Here's my perspective:
Everyone is able to beat their Saibamen except Gohan. Piccolo takes out Gohan's. Yamcha would probably fall against Nappa because Tenshinhan did and he was stronger. Nappa would maybe be somewhat weakened after fighting every Z Fighter so let's say Kuririn and Gohan are able to finish him off together. Goku shows up and defeats Vegeta, and the story continues as it's supposed to.

[nickzambuto]

Maintaining the Saibaman tournament would definitely, at the very least, allow Goku to arrive before Piccolo dies. At best? Yamcha or Tenshinhan could survive as well. I doubt they'd be able to beat Nappa, but Yamcha's presence should provide enough of a split of Nappa's attention that one of them could survive.

Chiaotzu is still doomed though because self destruction was literally his opening move. I guess that means the one to die will be Tenshinhan, actually, because he purposefully sacrificed himself.

I wonder how Yamcha would affect the attempted three-way ping pong of Nappa that Gohan failed?

Either way I'm going to say Yamcha survives, does whatever he can in the battle with Vegeta, and overall the team wins the day a little bit easier. Yamcha goes with them to Namek, and will get his potential unlocked by the Great Elder, putting him and Kuririn on an even playing field, and ironically Tenshinhan will be the one to lag behind.

Nothing really changes all that much on Namek. Yamcha being there will just split the enemies' attentions more, so maybe the team will suffer less overall. But they won in the end any way so it doesn't really change anything. Yamcha will remain only one step behind Kuririn for the rest of the series. The plot won't change, but Yamcha will probably be a better character thanks to this.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This probably belongs in the What If thread. Anyway, Yamcha being alive doesn't make a difference at all, Piccolo may live long enough for Goku to arrive if he's there but that's it.

[Israelite Wolfman]

If Yamcha had survived the Saibaman jihad then I see things going in this order: since Krillin never had that explosion of rage over his death, all Z-Fighters fight their respective Saibaman; Krillin managed to defeat his one with ease, Chiaotzu who had a power level of 610 went next and had the toughest time before pulling a "Lock & Load" move using his body bind+Dodonpa trick to pierce his one out, Gohan snapped after a temporal beat up by the Saibaman and killed the last one.

Nappa steps in, all Z-Fighters use their best moves at him, managing to brutally injuring him with their team work, even though it costs the life of Chiaotzu who will try to save everyone with a self-destruct, Tien goes next trying to avenge him, Piccolo survives till Goku arrived thanks to the 3 hours wait for him begins much later than in the original timeline.

Piccolo who is dying from the battle with Nappa helps Goku (who killed or caused Vegeta to get rid of Nappa with a Kaioken) take down Vegeta alongside Yamcha, Krillin & Gohan who stalled him after Yajirobe stepped in and took him out of his Ozaru form, Piccolo collapses from his injuries and dies, Vegeta who is dying is spared by Goku and goes off to get treatment on Planet Frieza 79.

Thanks to this the Z-Fighters decide to go to Planet Namek to use their Dragon Balls to revive their fallen ones, the chaos on Namek begins thanks to Frieza overhearing Vegeta & Nappa's talk about using Planet Namek's balls. Yamcha, Krillin & Gohan goes first with Bulma while Goku is left waiting a few more days for a Senzu bean to grow in the hospital. Piccolo, Tien & Chiaotzu made their way to King Kai's Planet much faster than Goku did a year before and began their intense training to surpass the Saiyan.

Everything goes as usual with Frieza's Top Henchmen: Cui, Dodoria & Zarbon getting slain by Vegeta only with Yamcha's involved too, while Krillin, Yamcha & Gohan are forced to stay on the planet after Banan & Sui destroyed their/Kami's spaceship. Yamcha & Gohan protect Bulma in the cave as Krillin leaves with Dende to Guru's place, he gets his Potential Unlocked and asks Guru if he'll agree to do the same to his friends, the Grand Elder agrees and then Yamcha & Gohan (who stole one of Vegeta's Dragon Balls on the way, despite encountering the Saiyan prince) got their power levels higher. I'd say Yamcha should be at 12,000 if Krillin is at 13,000.

Frieza summons his most elite Ginyu Force and Vegeta is forced to join forces with the Earthlings, the rumble goes on: Guldo vs. Gohan & Krillin, Recoome vs. Vegeta & Yamcha, the latter joins the fighting after Vegeta interfered the first battle and killed Guldo. Recoome who despite taking a surprise Sokidan from underneath his ground right to the groin is still proven too much for the heroes, who with Yamcha's help managed to cause him more damage than in Toriyama's version of the events. Goku arrives and dispatches of Recoome & Burter. Jeice flees to call Captain Ginyu, while they're back the Earthlings goes to Frieza's Ship to locate the stolen balls, the Ginyu-Goku scenario goes on with Yamcha helping in, EVENTUALLY Goku obtain his original body and Ginyu is forced into a Namekian frog's shell. They proceed to heal Goku in Frieza's recovery tank and Vegeta gives the Earthlings Frieza's Soldiers' armors for protection for the upcoming battle with the tyrant: Yamcha gets Raditz's model since he's the tallest around.

Vegeta goes to sleep, Yamcha send Krillin to go get the password from Guru, Dende meets him not so far away, they return, Yamcha & Gohan who protected the balls kicked Ginyu-Frog off and plot to use the wishes under Vegeta's nose. The same scenario of Piccolo being revived and brought to Namek with two wishes only for Vegeta to lose the last wish for immortality occurs. When Vegeta holds Dende's throat Frieza appears, the battle begins, Yamcha's now at 65,000 if Krillin is at 75,000. The tyrant transforms into his second form and stabs Krillin who was sheltering Dende, Krillin is thought to be a goner, Yamcha is frozen with shock of Frieza's power level, Gohan snaps, Vegeta is too scared to move, Krillin is taken out of the water by Dende while Frieza is tasked with Gohan and is healed, he returns to the frontlines and fires a Destructo Disc at Frieza whose tail is chopped. Yamcha realizes Krillin won't last long and while Dende is healing Gohan fires a Sokidan to stall Frieza who goes back towards him, just before laying a hand at Yamcha Piccolo appears, he takes down 2nd form Frieza, Gohan takes his 3rd form, and the final showdown begins, Dende is the first victim after healing Vegeta (who got shot by Yamcha instead of Krillin), all but Vegeta tries to avenge Dende while fighting Frieza who is only using a fracture of his true power and fail to even touch him. Vegeta the "Super Saiyan" is the second victim of this fight after challenging the tyrant who defeats him with 3% of his true might. Goku arrives and everything goes as planned: Spirit Bomb, Piccolo is getting shot to the heart, Krillin's demise, Super Saiyan transformation.

Goku orders Gohan & Yamcha to go find Bulma and go back to his spaceship where he'll be coming soon after taking care of Frieza. Gohan carries Piccolo's beaten body to the ship while Yamcha goes to find Bulma, Gohan remembers all that happened today on Namek while flying above the Ginyu Force's bodies, they wait there long enough for Gohan to lose it and fly back to the battle with Yamcha & Bulma calling him to come back. Gohan is landing a few blows at a relaxed Frieza before his father shows up and yell for him to go back and to wait with Bulma & Yamcha, he eventually does that. Meanwhile on Earth, Kami and Popo had collected all the Dragon Balls and asked for the revival of all of Frieza and his men's victims on Namek, Guru is revived and Dende uses the last wish to transport everyone from Namek to Earth except for SSJ Goku and Frieza.

Frieza threw the Death Ball and Namek's "5 minutes" montage begins, the planet explodes with Goku who landed a self chopped Frieza some of his ki before shoting other part of it at him, managed to take one of the Ginyu Force's ships and leave Namek with 0.001 seconds to spare. Yamcha & Bulma decide to tie the nuts of their love and marry, Vegeta comes out of the closet and realizes that other than Nappa no one would like to have him in his life, so he ditches Earth and becomes a Frieza Force bounty hunter for the Galactic Patrol (a Change of Heart a-la-Jaco). Tien & Chiaotzu who stayed at King Kai's planet learnt the Kaioken & Genki Dama are revived and goes back to their quiet Earth lives. King Cold finds Frieza and his medics turned him into Mecha-Frieza, they invade Earth, forcing Goku to stop his 1 year break on Yardrat and move his ass towards Earth again. The Z-Fighters including Vegeta, who after slaying most of Frieza's planets known to him stayed on Earth raising a Saibaman he nicknamed "Nappa" in the Capsule Corp's garden when he's not gravity training, fought King Cold's soldiers but failed to even scratch Frieza's new tail with their combined efforts, once Frieza charges a ki blast at them Goku uses Instant Transmition and stops him, he comment on Frieza's growth in power and turns SSJ, King Cold suggest they'll fight together, Frieza declines, stating he wishes to at least try fighting on his own for the test of his new strength, he proves nothing in comparison to Goku and is destroyed, Cold steps in and after breaking his armor he transforms to his 3rd form, fails to harm Goku, goes into his Final Form and proves equal in power to his SSJ form, the two have a Kamehameha-DEATH BEAM fight a-la-Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan, with Yamcha & Co. aiding from the side with their remaining powers without much effect. The battle ends with Earth triumphant.

Turns out one of Yamcha's home runs hitted Dr. Gero's spy robot shortly before the battle listed above and broke the shit out of it. Since Gero never had a sample of King Cold or Frieza (as if he died in the explosion & Cold never invaded Earth) his statistic data for battle powers in his computer was much weaker and so does he and his androids, Chiaotzu is still on the Z-Fighters due to Future Trunks never existing and stealing his place on the roster so Yamcha never got jobbed by Gero who is found by Chiatozu, then all the plot line goes the same only with Vegeta (who now's basically living the exact "love life" as Yajirobe and Korin with "Nappa") using his "Super Vegeta" state to break the hell out of Imperfect Cell who intends to absorb Android 18, since he wants the show to end or at least get cancelled so he'll be free to spend his life with "Nappa". alone! Android 18 asks Krillin out for a comforting date after she noticed his willingness to protect her from Cell, and mostly since her twin delinquent brother is now a broken piece of screws and plastic amongst Cell's remains. While Krillin is more relieved/cool talking to girls now and just don't care/stressed anymore about losing his virginity as Yamcha fixed him up with his own groupies after marrying Bulma.

The years pass and the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai happens: ALL THE Z-FIGHTERS ENTER, Kaioshin & Kibito enter as well and warn them about Babidi's plans, Goten got written out or at best was given a different appearance than a rehash of kid Goku, turns out Gohan was never ruined and thanks to growing up next to the Michael Jordan of Dragon Ball's world MLB, Yamcha, he's now so cool all the girls in class just wish he'd stare at them.

Yamcha is selected to fight Jewel, Tien vs. Killa, Chiaotzu vs. Yamu, Videl vs. Spopovitch, Gohan vs. Kibito, Piccolo vs. Shin, Krillin vs. Pintar, Goku vs. Vegeta, Mr. Satan (who lost his chance to claim he killed Cell & turned into the "World's Hero" by fighting against REALITY TV) vs. Android 16 (who came along since he wanted to see the wildlife on Papaya Island) & Android 18 vs. Mighty Mask. Spopovitch smacks Videl with his Majin enhancement and Gohan shows Kibito his SSJ powers, before his energy gets drained by Yamu & Spopovitch, ALL, but Gohan & Videl who are led by Kibito, leave the World Tournament follow them right away.

They reach Babidi's ship and learnt of Majin Buu on the way while Gohan and Kibito join them. The madoshi decides to get rid of his human servants and kills Spopovitch with overpowering him, Pui Pui kills Yamu. Dabura waits a second after his underling & boss enter the spaceship and zapps into the Z-Fighters & Core People. He shots a ki blast from 0 range at Kibito, killing him in an instant, leaving all but Goku & Vegeta in fear, he takes the two head on before knocking them to the side and proceeds to spit at Chiaotzu, Krillin, Yamcha, Tien & Piccolo (who got angry for the spitting at his friends and tried to punch the demon). They all quickly turned into stones, forcing the Saiyans & Shin inside the ship to eventually cause the revival of the dormant Majin Buu.

Vegeta takes on Pui Pui, Goku kills Yakon, and Gohan manages to cause Dabura to flee with the inch of his life after going SSJ 2 with the anger he got from blaming himself his friends were turned into garden statues. Vegeta is told by Babidi that his pet Saibaman is utter garbage and that the wizard can raise him better if he'll just allow him to use a 3M and draw an M on his forehead, the prince agrees and Majin Vegeta happens. He then proceeds to fight Kakarot, wins with cheating and goes to fight Majin Buu who got free during his rampage. Dabura was eaten like an oreo cookie and all Z-Fighters go back to their flesh and blood self.

Gohan uses SSJ2 but his power isn't enough to kill the beast, the monster causes Vegeta to use self-destruct (despite Chiaotzu's comment it won't work) and loses his life in vain, Goku arrives to the scene, goes SSJ3 from the anger within he'll now be forced to raise "Nappa" and defeats the fat child like being, Majin Buu gets frustrated over his defeat and released his evil thin somali self out, Goku calls the UN for weight inspection and the evil demon commits suicide cause he knows the UN are worthless and don't wish to be associated with them. Mr. Satan who ran a few marathons to get a way from the herd of imaginary women in his head who wanted to sleep with him after winning another title (winning against the lackeys who stayed and after 18 let him win for a bribe) found the good and fat Buu and decided to take him home as his Mr. Drummond.

The World King who is a a dog is taken into inspection after the song "who let the dogs out" was released In-Universe and led to riots against his allegedly dictatorship, elections are held, Mr. Satan avoids running as he's not a political person, donald trump wins somehow and is taken out by a Mafuba.

The series ends with Yamcha winning his who-knows-how-many MVP award and championship. DBZ proves us all that the West City Titans did a great job with signing this talented free agent who despite being undrafted (never entering the baseball draft) had proven that being a devoted martial artist who fought local and intergalactic wars makes one better than regular top picks.

[Gog]

Nothing important would change.

[Shlugo]

If they fight Saibmen one by one, things might get dragged to the point Goku arrives before Piccolo is killed. Aside from that nothing else of note.

[TheMathemagician]

Here's my perspective:
Everyone is able to beat their Saibamen except Gohan. Piccolo takes out Gohan's. Yamcha would probably fall against Nappa because Tenshinhan did and he was stronger. Nappa would maybe be somewhat weakened after fighting every Z Fighter so let's say Kuririn and Gohan are able to finish him off together. Goku shows up and defeats Vegeta, and the story continues as it's supposed to.

Kuririn didn't fall against Nappa, and he was weaker than Ten.

[TheMathemagician]

Maintaining the Saibaman tournament would definitely, at the very least, allow Goku to arrive before Piccolo dies. At best? Yamcha or Tenshinhan could survive as well. I doubt they'd be able to beat Nappa, but Yamcha's presence should provide enough of a split of Nappa's attention that one of them could survive.

Chiaotzu is still doomed though because self destruction was literally his opening move. I guess that means the one to die will be Tenshinhan, actually, because he purposefully sacrificed himself.

I wonder how Yamcha would affect the attempted three-way ping pong of Nappa that Gohan failed?

Either way I'm going to say Yamcha survives, does whatever he can in the battle with Vegeta, and overall the team wins the day a little bit easier. Yamcha goes with them to Namek, and will get his potential unlocked by the Great Elder, putting him and Kuririn on an even playing field, and ironically Tenshinhan will be the one to lag behind.

Nothing really changes all that much on Namek. Yamcha being there will just split the enemies' attentions more, so maybe the team will suffer less overall. But they won in the end any way so it doesn't really change anything. Yamcha will remain only one step behind Kuririn for the rest of the series. The plot won't change, but Yamcha will probably be a better character thanks to this.

Yeah, nothing really changes on Namek. That would just be one extra person Recoome would trash. Afterwards, Yamcha would help in the Ginyu-Goku fight, and he'd possibly die to Frieza.

[nickzambuto]

Here's my perspective:
Everyone is able to beat their Saibamen except Gohan. Piccolo takes out Gohan's. Yamcha would probably fall against Nappa because Tenshinhan did and he was stronger. Nappa would maybe be somewhat weakened after fighting every Z Fighter so let's say Kuririn and Gohan are able to finish him off together. Goku shows up and defeats Vegeta, and the story continues as it's supposed to.

Kuririn didn't fall against Nappa, and he was weaker than Ten.

Was he really weaker than? I know their official power levels say one thing, but power levels fluctuate. Kuririn felt some intense emotions during that battle, and it can't be denied that he outperformed Tenshinhan when he obliterated all those Saibamen with barely a sweat, and also when he blitzed Nappa and nearly finished him with the Kienzan.

[dragonball0900]

Here's my perspective:
Everyone is able to beat their Saibamen except Gohan. Piccolo takes out Gohan's. Yamcha would probably fall against Nappa because Tenshinhan did and he was stronger. Nappa would maybe be somewhat weakened after fighting every Z Fighter so let's say Kuririn and Gohan are able to finish him off together. Goku shows up and defeats Vegeta, and the story continues as it's supposed to.

Kuririn didn't fall against Nappa, and he was weaker than Ten.

Was he really weaker than? I know their official power levels say one thing, but power levels fluctuate. Kuririn felt some intense emotions during that battle, and it can't be denied that he outperformed Tenshinhan when he obliterated all those Saibamen with barely a sweat, and also when he blitzed Nappa and nearly finished him with the Kienzan.

I would like to think Krillin was still weaker than Tien at this point. The reason why Krillin got stronger than Tien later on is because of his potential unlock from Guru, but at the Nappa battle I doubt that Krillin has surpassed Tien at that point.

Although I have to be honest here, Krillin did improve more in his training for the saiyan battle than Tien did. The reason is because Krillin, who was 206, improved 8.5 times his strenght to 1,770. While Tien only improved from his 250 to 1830, a 7.5. Krillin manages to close the gap between him and Tien. And even Yamcha improved more than Tien, given how he increases from 177 to 1,480, although he improves less than Krillin.

Even so, Krillin's attacks to Nappa were more off guard than Tien's, and Krillin is also more intelligent. Imagine that it was Krillin the one who Nappa goes first instead of Tien. Instead of trying to battle Nappa like Tien did, he would do what Piccolo tried to tell Tien about dodging the attack, doing better than what Tien did, although Krillin would still get beaten up in the end, and getting killed faster than Tien. The thing is, Krillin was more cautious through the whole battle, something that I don't know if Tien would do the same thing if the roles were interchanged.

[TheMathemagician]

Kuririn didn't fall against Nappa, and he was weaker than Ten.

Was he really weaker than? I know their official power levels say one thing, but power levels fluctuate. Kuririn felt some intense emotions during that battle, and it can't be denied that he outperformed Tenshinhan when he obliterated all those Saibamen with barely a sweat, and also when he blitzed Nappa and nearly finished him with the Kienzan.

I would like to think Krillin was still weaker than Tien at this point. The reason why Krillin got stronger than Tien later on is because of his potential unlock from Guru, but at the Nappa battle I doubt that Krillin has surpassed Tien at that point.

Although I have to be honest here, Krillin did improve more in his training for the saiyan battle than Tien did. The reason is because Krillin, who was 206, improved 8.5 times his strenght to 1,770. While Tien only improved from his 250 to 1830, a 7.5. Krillin manages to close the gap between him and Tien. And even Yamcha improved more than Tien, given how he increases from 177 to 1,480, although he improves less than Krillin.

Even so, Krillin's attacks to Nappa were more off guard than Tien's, and Krillin is also more intelligent. Imagine that it was Krillin the one who Nappa goes first instead of Tien. Instead of trying to battle Nappa like Tien did, he would do what Piccolo tried to tell Tien about dodging the attack, doing better than what Tien did, although Krillin would still get beaten up in the end, and getting killed faster than Tien. The thing is, Krillin was more cautious through the whole battle, something that I don't know if Tien would do the same thing if the roles were interchanged.

This. Tenshinhan was stronger, but Kuririn was the one with the biggest gains from training with Kami.

[nickzambuto]

Kuririn didn't fall against Nappa, and he was weaker than Ten.

Was he really weaker than? I know their official power levels say one thing, but power levels fluctuate. Kuririn felt some intense emotions during that battle, and it can't be denied that he outperformed Tenshinhan when he obliterated all those Saibamen with barely a sweat, and also when he blitzed Nappa and nearly finished him with the Kienzan.

I would like to think Krillin was still weaker than Tien at this point. The reason why Krillin got stronger than Tien later on is because of his potential unlock from Guru, but at the Nappa battle I doubt that Krillin has surpassed Tien at that point.

Although I have to be honest here, Krillin did improve more in his training for the saiyan battle than Tien did. The reason is because Krillin, who was 206, improved 8.5 times his strenght to 1,770. While Tien only improved from his 250 to 1830, a 7.5. Krillin manages to close the gap between him and Tien. And even Yamcha improved more than Tien, given how he increases from 177 to 1,480, although he improves less than Krillin.

Even so, Krillin's attacks to Nappa were more off guard than Tien's, and Krillin is also more intelligent. Imagine that it was Krillin the one who Nappa goes first instead of Tien. Instead of trying to battle Nappa like Tien did, he would do what Piccolo tried to tell Tien about dodging the attack, doing better than what Tien did, although Krillin would still get beaten up in the end, and getting killed faster than Tien. The thing is, Krillin was more cautious through the whole battle, something that I don't know if Tien would do the same thing if the roles were interchanged.

I kind of enjoy the growth of Kuririn's power if we look at it in the sense that he always had the most potential of the Earthlings, physically, mentally, and spiritually, but was always having to catch up to his older and more physically developed counterparts, Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Yamcha and Tenshinhan had their rivalry for the strongest human, but unbeknownst to them, Kuririn was climbing closer and closer to them both with every tournament.

There's some precedence to this if we assume Yamcha was much stronger than Kuririn at the start of the series (being something of a rival to Goku while Kuririn was nothing) and take his superior performance at Baba's tournament to mean he was still stronger then as well.

Yamcha's performance at the 22nd against Tenshinhan always struck me as more impressive than Kuririn's against Goku (Goku was barely even trying) so Yamcha was stronger then. But three years later, in his fight with Ma Junior, Kuririn proves the immense fruits of his training now that he is a young man instead of a teenager, surpassing Yamcha, but still below Tenshinhan. Then, more years later, Kuririn again proves his gains with his exemplary showing against the saiyans, clearly outperforming Tenshinhan and surpassing him as well.

His boost in the Namek arc then logically propels him to a whole new world from the others. He surpassed them naturally by having the most conviction, and after this, it was no longer even a competition.

I realize this theory isn't close to perfect so don't take it seriously in a battle sense. It's just the way I like to think of the story.

[TheMathemagician]

Was he really weaker than? I know their official power levels say one thing, but power levels fluctuate. Kuririn felt some intense emotions during that battle, and it can't be denied that he outperformed Tenshinhan when he obliterated all those Saibamen with barely a sweat, and also when he blitzed Nappa and nearly finished him with the Kienzan.

I would like to think Krillin was still weaker than Tien at this point. The reason why Krillin got stronger than Tien later on is because of his potential unlock from Guru, but at the Nappa battle I doubt that Krillin has surpassed Tien at that point.

Although I have to be honest here, Krillin did improve more in his training for the saiyan battle than Tien did. The reason is because Krillin, who was 206, improved 8.5 times his strenght to 1,770. While Tien only improved from his 250 to 1830, a 7.5. Krillin manages to close the gap between him and Tien. And even Yamcha improved more than Tien, given how he increases from 177 to 1,480, although he improves less than Krillin.

Even so, Krillin's attacks to Nappa were more off guard than Tien's, and Krillin is also more intelligent. Imagine that it was Krillin the one who Nappa goes first instead of Tien. Instead of trying to battle Nappa like Tien did, he would do what Piccolo tried to tell Tien about dodging the attack, doing better than what Tien did, although Krillin would still get beaten up in the end, and getting killed faster than Tien. The thing is, Krillin was more cautious through the whole battle, something that I don't know if Tien would do the same thing if the roles were interchanged.

I kind of enjoy the growth of Kuririn's power if we look at it in the sense that he always had the most potential of the Earthlings, physically, mentally, and spiritually, but was always having to catch up to his older and more physically developed counterparts, Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Yamcha and Tenshinhan had their rivalry for the strongest human, but unbeknownst to them, Kuririn was climbing closer and closer to them both with every tournament.

There's some precedence to this if we assume Yamcha was much stronger than Kuririn at the start of the series (being something of a rival to Goku while Kuririn was nothing) and take his superior performance at Baba's tournament to mean he was still stronger then as well.

Yamcha's performance at the 22nd against Tenshinhan always struck me as more impressive than Kuririn's against Goku (Goku was barely even trying) so Yamcha was stronger then. But three years later, in his fight with Ma Junior, Kuririn proves the immense fruits of his training now that he is a young man instead of a teenager, surpassing Yamcha, but still below Tenshinhan. Then, more years later, Kuririn again proves his gains with his exemplary showing against the saiyans, clearly outperforming Tenshinhan and surpassing him as well.

His boost in the Namek arc then logically propels him to a whole new world from the others. He surpassed them naturally by having the most conviction, and after this, it was no longer even a competition.

I realize this theory isn't close to perfect so don't take it seriously in a battle sense. It's just the way I like to think of the story.

Eh maybe but 21st Kuririn > 21st Yamcha. 22nd Kuririn stated that 22nd Yamcha was about even with him. Yamcha wasn't stronger. Kuririn trained with Yamcha, and there's no reason for Kuririn to lie. Not to mention, I recently re-read Goku vs. Kuririn and Ten vs. Yamcha. The anime definitely made Yamcha look better. He got maybe one hit on Ten and that was about it. Saying Goku was barely trying when Ten himself was barely trying against Yamcha. Ten didn't get remotely serious until he fought Roshi.

I do understand that, but even from a story standpoint, there's very little indicating some of this stuff being true.

[dragonball0900]

I kind of enjoy the growth of Kuririn's power if we look at it in the sense that he always had the most potential of the Earthlings, physically, mentally, and spiritually, but was always having to catch up to his older and more physically developed counterparts, Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Yamcha and Tenshinhan had their rivalry for the strongest human, but unbeknownst to them, Kuririn was climbing closer and closer to them both with every tournament.

There's some precedence to this if we assume Yamcha was much stronger than Kuririn at the start of the series (being something of a rival to Goku while Kuririn was nothing) and take his superior performance at Baba's tournament to mean he was still stronger then as well.

Yamcha's performance at the 22nd against Tenshinhan always struck me as more impressive than Kuririn's against Goku (Goku was barely even trying) so Yamcha was stronger then. But three years later, in his fight with Ma Junior, Kuririn proves the immense fruits of his training now that he is a young man instead of a teenager, surpassing Yamcha, but still below Tenshinhan. Then, more years later, Kuririn again proves his gains with his exemplary showing against the saiyans, clearly outperforming Tenshinhan and surpassing him as well.

His boost in the Namek arc then logically propels him to a whole new world from the others. He surpassed them naturally by having the most conviction, and after this, it was no longer even a competition.

I realize this theory isn't close to perfect so don't take it seriously in a battle sense. It's just the way I like to think of the story.

Your theory was a very interesting take on the story. I kinda agree with most of your points. The only little problem would be that Krillin was stated to be stronger than Yamcha in the 21st Budokai since he was trained by Roshi. And in the pre-eliminaries, Yamcha said that it was not possible for him to win second place in the tournament if Krillin was there. There was a big gap between the two, specially since we take into consideration their respective battles against Jackie Chun.

Although after training with Roshi for 3 years to the 22nd Budokai, Yamcha manages to catch up to him, being at least equal to him. But what favours Yamcha are his techniques that are much superior to Krillin's. As you said, Yamcha's battle against Tien was better than Krillin's against Goku (although Tien wasn't really trying). I'd like to think that Krillin was a rival to Yamcha at that point, as well as the 23rd Budokai (where Krillin finally surpasses Yamcha). Later in the saiyan arc, he would be more of a rival to Tien since their powers are so similar, and Krillin was closer to Tien than how he was from Yamcha. From the Namek Arc and up, we already know who is the stronger one...

So yeah. Krillin would be the earthling with the most potential, from being the weakest earthling to being as strong as Yamcha, from being as strong as Yamcha to being as strong as Tien, until he's finally the strongest earthling. Krillin would most likely be the "Goku" of the humans!

[FoolsGil]

Yamcha may very well do as he intended - fight all the rest of the Saibamen. After he beats them, he would have his neck snapped by Nappa. (Yamcha's lasting role in Dragonball is to be a jobber, even when he does amazing, he still has to lose, sadly)

However his death by Nappa may alert everyone better. Tenshinhan may not end up a deer in the headlights if Nappa charges him. Perhaps a more focused Z team can keep up with Nappa long enough until Goku shows up, though either Piccolo, Chaozu, and/or Krillin must still die to get a journey to Namek.

[nickzambuto]

I would like to think Krillin was still weaker than Tien at this point. The reason why Krillin got stronger than Tien later on is because of his potential unlock from Guru, but at the Nappa battle I doubt that Krillin has surpassed Tien at that point.

Although I have to be honest here, Krillin did improve more in his training for the saiyan battle than Tien did. The reason is because Krillin, who was 206, improved 8.5 times his strenght to 1,770. While Tien only improved from his 250 to 1830, a 7.5. Krillin manages to close the gap between him and Tien. And even Yamcha improved more than Tien, given how he increases from 177 to 1,480, although he improves less than Krillin.

Even so, Krillin's attacks to Nappa were more off guard than Tien's, and Krillin is also more intelligent. Imagine that it was Krillin the one who Nappa goes first instead of Tien. Instead of trying to battle Nappa like Tien did, he would do what Piccolo tried to tell Tien about dodging the attack, doing better than what Tien did, although Krillin would still get beaten up in the end, and getting killed faster than Tien. The thing is, Krillin was more cautious through the whole battle, something that I don't know if Tien would do the same thing if the roles were interchanged.

I kind of enjoy the growth of Kuririn's power if we look at it in the sense that he always had the most potential of the Earthlings, physically, mentally, and spiritually, but was always having to catch up to his older and more physically developed counterparts, Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Yamcha and Tenshinhan had their rivalry for the strongest human, but unbeknownst to them, Kuririn was climbing closer and closer to them both with every tournament.

There's some precedence to this if we assume Yamcha was much stronger than Kuririn at the start of the series (being something of a rival to Goku while Kuririn was nothing) and take his superior performance at Baba's tournament to mean he was still stronger then as well.

Yamcha's performance at the 22nd against Tenshinhan always struck me as more impressive than Kuririn's against Goku (Goku was barely even trying) so Yamcha was stronger then. But three years later, in his fight with Ma Junior, Kuririn proves the immense fruits of his training now that he is a young man instead of a teenager, surpassing Yamcha, but still below Tenshinhan. Then, more years later, Kuririn again proves his gains with his exemplary showing against the saiyans, clearly outperforming Tenshinhan and surpassing him as well.

His boost in the Namek arc then logically propels him to a whole new world from the others. He surpassed them naturally by having the most conviction, and after this, it was no longer even a competition.

I realize this theory isn't close to perfect so don't take it seriously in a battle sense. It's just the way I like to think of the story.

Eh maybe but 21st Kuririn > 21st Yamcha. 22nd Kuririn stated that 22nd Yamcha was about even with him. Yamcha wasn't stronger. Kuririn trained with Yamcha, and there's no reason for Kuririn to lie. Not to mention, I recently re-read Goku vs. Kuririn and Ten vs. Yamcha. The anime definitely made Yamcha look better. He got maybe one hit on Ten and that was about it. Saying Goku was barely trying when Ten himself was barely trying against Yamcha. Ten didn't get remotely serious until he fought Roshi.

I do understand that, but even from a story standpoint, there's very little indicating some of this stuff being true.

I think the difference between then at the 21st was small enough that we can just wink it off, if you know what I mean. Especially considering Yamcha's implied superiority at Baba's tournament. And I know Kuririn and Yamcha were stated to be about even after their training together, but the operative word is "about." I don't see why their can't be an ultimate difference in their capabilities, with the wiser and more experienced Yamcha logically having the edge over his companion, even if they were respectably close.

The anime definitely doesn't portray Yamcha as better, Tenshinhan was outright toying with him in the anime. I'm referring to the manga where they both worked up a sweat, and Ten definitely wasn't giving it his all, but the gap had to be smaller than Kuririn and Goku's. Kuririn had to rely wholly on exploiting Goku's weaknesses and Goku being gentle. He used tactics to stay ahead of the game, but ultimately, he couldn't even see Goku. Yamcha had no such edge to rely on against Tenshinhan. Their bout was pure hand to hand. And Yamcha kept up.

[dragonball0900]

This does raise me a question...

Do you think that around the making of the 22nd Budokai and the King Piccolo arc, Toei thought that Yamcha was stronger than Krillin? The reasons why I say this is:

- Even though Tien was toying with Yamcha, they still made a really good fight in the anime. Krillin and Goku did it too, but it wasn't as impressive as the former one, specially since Goku was clearly more dominating the fight.

- The way Krillin and Yamcha fought Tambourine. In the filler, they made Krillin losing to Tambourine easily, without even landing a single hit. With Yamcha, however, they made him battling better against Tambourine, and he was even with his leg broken, not at full power.

- Through the filler scenes when they were training and going to Korin's tower, between the King Piccolo arc and the 23rd Budokai (when Goku was training with Popo), you can see through their training that Yamcha was keeping on par with Tien, with Krillin and Chiaotzu falling behind.

Do you think those are some evidences to say that Toei thought that Krillin was weaker than Yamcha at that point of the series?

[nickzambuto]

Absolutely. Toei has always portrayed Yamcha as stronger than Kuririn every chance they got. I can list a dozen examples, but the two that stand out to me are his and Ten's epic sparring at Kami's place while Kuririn was danced around by Yajirobe just for the sake of comic relief, as well as their respective performances against the Cell Jrs where Kuririn was just utterly helpless and abused the entire time, while Yamcha had at least a couple moments of competency. And also the Tambourine fight, which you mentioned.

[dragonball0900]

Also looking closely at the Cell Jr fight, Krillin couldn't land a single hit to the Cell Jrs, but Yamcha manages to defend himself (as well as Tien), holding his own, and we later see the scene of both beating one of them. Then there's Yamcha lasting longer than Krillin in Kami's training when they travelled to the past to fight two saiyans.

My interpretation has always been that Toei thought that Tien and Yamcha were stronger than Krillin. Maybe they wanted Yamcha to be nearly on par Tien because of their so similar size, and just judged Krillin by his small size. Or maybe is just that Toei wanted them to have shining moments considering that they are not used that much. Or maybe because they are not used that much in the series Toei just didn't know their strenght (that wouldn't explain why they made Yamcha stronger than him back in the King Piccolo arc though, since he did appear a lot during that time).

Strangely, the scene when Bulma was reading through Raditz's scouter the numbers of 177 and 250 for Yamcha and Tien was taken out. Do you think that maybe they did that to avoid Yamcha being weaker than Krillin?

But what I'm saying are just possibilities that are probably not true. Although considering the scenes we did see through the series, at least one or two of these possibilities is likely.