Just checked the manga, and it's pretty clear visually that Kibito is the one using the technique, since he's actively touching both Shin and Gohan. However, it does seem to be Shin in Z, and Kibito isn't touching both of them when they arrive. I guess this does muddy the issue a bit, but it's obvious to me that the Z anime made a mistake, and Toriyama made the same one later on. I did learn something neat today though, so there's that.Ikazvyr wrote:I don't know how it is in american dubs since I'm brazilian, but in both japanese and brazilian dub is Shin who yells "Kai Kai". I'm even rewatching DBKai with my girlfriend and saw this episode yesterday. You could say that in manga is difficult to knows who's using, but is pretty clear in anime that's Shin's voiceJinzoningen MULE wrote:But he didn't. Kibito was the one who moved them to and from the Kaioshin Realm. The only time Shin ever had the ability pre-Super was when merged with Kibito. This is easily verifiable. If you really want to stretch, you could say that he just never used it cause reasons (even though I can think of at least once where it would've been real useful), but it's just that, a stretch.Ikazvyr wrote:There's no retcon at all. Shin had this ability since the beginning. He's the one teleporting Gohan to Kaiohshin's Realm.
"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I edited my last post and pointed some things. I don't think this is Toriyama's fault, but of course Toei and Toyotaro got it wrong. Again, sorry for the inconvenienceJinzoningen MULE wrote:Just checked the manga, and it's pretty clear visually that Kibito is the one using the technique, since he's actively touching both Shin and Gohan. However, it does seem to be Shin in Z, and Kibito isn't touching both of them when they arrive. I guess this does muddy the issue a bit, but it's obvious to me that the Z anime made a mistake, and Toriyama made the same one later on. I did learn something neat today though, so there's that.Ikazvyr wrote:I don't know how it is in american dubs since I'm brazilian, but in both japanese and brazilian dub is Shin who yells "Kai Kai". I'm even rewatching DBKai with my girlfriend and saw this episode yesterday. You could say that in manga is difficult to knows who's using, but is pretty clear in anime that's Shin's voiceJinzoningen MULE wrote: But he didn't. Kibito was the one who moved them to and from the Kaioshin Realm. The only time Shin ever had the ability pre-Super was when merged with Kibito. This is easily verifiable. If you really want to stretch, you could say that he just never used it cause reasons (even though I can think of at least once where it would've been real useful), but it's just that, a stretch.
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Those massive Disney Princess eyes make literally anything she does the cutest thing ever.Freeza9000 wrote:Each and every one of Mai's shocked facial expressions in the manga gets me on the fucking floor.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Even this?Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Those massive Disney Princess eyes make literally anything she does the cutest thing ever.Freeza9000 wrote:Each and every one of Mai's shocked facial expressions in the manga gets me on the fucking floor.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
It doesn't have to be wrong. There's nothing saying Kaioushin can't use Kaikai, he just doesn't do it.Ikazvyr wrote:I edited my last post and pointed some things. I don't think this is Toriyama's fault, but of course Toei and Toyotaro got it wrong. Again, sorry for the inconvenience
Like was pointed out, in both Z and Kai it's Kaioushin's voice and in the manga we don't know who said it and we can't see if Kibito is touching Kaioushin as well (although, we can vouch for either case by the way Kaioushin is arguing with Kibito to take Gohan to the Kaioushin Realm). Later, Kaioushin wants to go with Kibito to see Gohan off.
I always got the impression that Kibito was the one having Kaikai but, seeing Super, Kaioushin can use it and there's nothing that contradicts it. It might be strange he'd rely on Kibito if he could do it himself but saying it's the servant's job to do everything should suffice.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Kaioshin was helped by Kibith. Goku and Vegeta can go in an other future and so if they killed in the time of Trunks they will not die. Like Zamas. Zamas used the ring many time and for this he has to be Kaioshin If he is not Kaioshin the fusion will not last but an hour.batistabus wrote:1. Zamasu is not an actual Kaioshin, he just took the potara and called himself god after Black killed Gowasu.Lupin879 wrote:1. The Supreme Kai no longer have healing powers when they are Kaioshin. Zamasu is both Kaioshin both server and maintains both their privileges?
2. Supreme Kai has never had the instant trasmission but now in the manga he has this power? In Majin Buu saga he teleports but only thanks to Kibith.
3. In anime Beerus can kill one in every time, but he can not kill Black, because this is acasual thanks to the ring. It's all OK. In the manga, this is not clear.
4. Then Goku and Vegeta could travel to another time so if they were killed by Black did not die but their death would create an alternate reality.
5. In the manga SSB loses power if one turns over again and again. But they do not pass this defect over three years in rosat but Vegeta overcomes the defect in a bit 'of time
2. The kai-kai has been retconned. It is stated in guidebooks, and the anime for Super has this as well. Because this change exists in both the anime and manga (and guidebooks), it's possible that this change was created by Toriyama and there's nothing that the anime/manga could explain.
3. Black doesn't wear the ring in the manga. He is able to stay in the parallel future without it. In the anime, they make it seem like Black should die once they kill the Zamasu from their timeline, but the manga doesn't give this impression.
4. If Goku and Vegeta died in Trunks' timeline, that would not create a parallel world. Zamasu's death created a parallel world because the future version of him had gone to the future, and due to a visit from Trunks, was killed before those events could unfold. The only way Goku and Vegeta dying would create a parallel world would be if someone went back in time to kill them.
5. In the three years, they were simply trying to become stronger. Super Saiyan Blue is something that is unnatural and didn't exist until Goku/Vegeta discovered it, so it's not unreasonable that they might spend 3 years with it but still not master it. When Vegeta went in by himself, he had that previous experience and was working solely on overcoming this weakness.
Zamas is not a Kaioshin? Good, he can not use the ring and the fusion last one hour
Zamas is a Kaioshin? Good he can not have anymore the healing powers.
If one can change status also Kaioshin est can
In the anime Kaiohshin has only a special kai kai only to go to Zeno
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
wrong thread, please delete.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
About Kaioshin knowing kai-kai while before only Kibith knew it, a few more possible explanations:
- He may have learned through using it as Kibitoshin in the past years. Cell learned Goku's instant tansmission (which took a year for Goku to learn) after being transported by him only once...
- Kaikai seems to be the norm for Kaioshins, in Super. As reaching Zeno's palace by flying would require two days for Whis, which is the faster flyer of U7, a such technique is very important.
- U7 kaioshin always gave the impression of being "young" and unexperienced... maybe he's been "training" under the elder kaioshin and now he's a bit more competent than before, and learned such important technique...
About red/blue... on one hand I like that red is not forgotten, and the other hand, it changes the muscle mass (slimmer in red), so it looks a bit strange one can do such change continuously without side effects...
... but who cares, this is fiction! Let's just enjoy the show!
- He may have learned through using it as Kibitoshin in the past years. Cell learned Goku's instant tansmission (which took a year for Goku to learn) after being transported by him only once...
- Kaikai seems to be the norm for Kaioshins, in Super. As reaching Zeno's palace by flying would require two days for Whis, which is the faster flyer of U7, a such technique is very important.
- U7 kaioshin always gave the impression of being "young" and unexperienced... maybe he's been "training" under the elder kaioshin and now he's a bit more competent than before, and learned such important technique...
About red/blue... on one hand I like that red is not forgotten, and the other hand, it changes the muscle mass (slimmer in red), so it looks a bit strange one can do such change continuously without side effects...
... but who cares, this is fiction! Let's just enjoy the show!
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I'm super hyped for the next chapter, I certain someone may or may not be eating a shoe when that drops
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How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Who's eating the shoe, again? (*cough*Gogetaisn'thappening*cough*)ekrolo2 wrote:I'm super hyped for the next chapter, I certain someone may or may not be eating a shoe when that drops
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Yeah, I also thought that way, but because I actually saw him using in anime. Like I said, in chapter 509, Kibitoshin is very specific when telling it's one of Kibito's abilities. I believe it's pretty possible he learned (from fusing, from the now demerged Kibito or from the elder Kaiohshin, who's constantly yelling that Shin is inexperient), and not explain this may be considered an error. To me, it's a little mistake not because he learned and we didn't know, but because they apparently didn't know Shin hadn't this ability and followed the anime, but this little mistake is not too grave to be demanded explanation or be pointed as plot hole or retcon. He now can teleport and it's all we need to knowalakazam^ wrote:It doesn't have to be wrong. There's nothing saying Kaioushin can't use Kaikai, he just doesn't do it.Ikazvyr wrote:I edited my last post and pointed some things. I don't think this is Toriyama's fault, but of course Toei and Toyotaro got it wrong. Again, sorry for the inconvenience
Like was pointed out, in both Z and Kai it's Kaioushin's voice and in the manga we don't know who said it and we can't see if Kibito is touching Kaioushin as well (although, we can vouch for either case by the way Kaioushin is arguing with Kibito to take Gohan to the Kaioushin Realm). Later, Kaioushin wants to go with Kibito to see Gohan off.
I always got the impression that Kibito was the one having Kaikai but, seeing Super, Kaioushin can use it and there's nothing that contradicts it. It might be strange he'd rely on Kibito if he could do it himself but saying it's the servant's job to do everything should suffice.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Come on, Toyotaro. Give us the Fusion Dance.Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Who's eating the shoe, again? (*cough*Gogetaisn'thappening*cough*)ekrolo2 wrote:I'm super hyped for the next chapter, I certain someone may or may not be eating a shoe when that drops
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I went to check the chapter and you're right although I guess it could kinda be interpreted that's something Kibito specializes in but not really exclusive to him but yeah, it's not that important in the big picture.Ikazvyr wrote:Yeah, I also thought that way, but because I actually saw him using in anime. Like I said, in chapter 509, Kibitoshin is very specific when telling it's one of Kibito's abilities. I believe it's pretty possible he learned (from fusing, from the now demerged Kibito or from the elder Kaiohshin, who's constantly yelling that Shin is inexperient), and not explain this may be considered an error. To me, it's a little mistake not because he learned and we didn't know, but because they apparently didn't know Shin hadn't this ability and followed the anime, but this little mistake is not too grave to be demanded explanation or be pointed as plot hole or retcon. He now can teleport and it's all we need to know
Zamasu could do it as well, apparently.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
If Absolute Zamasu retains the Kaioshin abilities the potential is there for an interesting fight. I believe we never saw these type of techniques being used by the superior fighter.
How many more chapters does everyone think the arc has? I'm going for two more. I remember when people predicted the arc would end in January.
Although I did predict it would end in March...
How many more chapters does everyone think the arc has? I'm going for two more. I remember when people predicted the arc would end in January.
Although I did predict it would end in March...
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I think it will end with two more chapter,I did predict this might end in may or June,I hope this ends at may, meanwhile in summer,the universal survival arc begin, let's see if he include the matches with the dangerous trio and toppo, toyotaro better improve with these matches and give screentime to Gohan and buuLightBing wrote:If Absolute Zamasu retains the Kaioshin abilities the potential is there for an interesting fight. I believe we never saw these type of techniques being used by the superior fighter.
How many more chapters does everyone think the arc has? I'm going for two more. I remember when people predicted the arc would end in January.
Although I did predict it would end in March...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Viz translated chapter 21.
https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... er-21/5582
https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... er-21/5582
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Viz are just one chapter behind.mfwlegend3 wrote:Viz translated chapter 21.
https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... er-21/5582
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Locked in my region. Any suggestions?mfwlegend3 wrote:Viz translated chapter 21.
https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... er-21/5582
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Filler and canon discussions are "meh"
English is not my first language!
Filler and canon discussions are "meh"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Read 20 pages to get up to this point. I don't want to tell people how to enjoy a story, but goddamn. A lot of people here complain about the most inane stuff. "Why didn't X do Y." The obvious answer is it's a story and they're characters. They're not omniscient machines that do the most logical thing every single time. Come on, people. Have some perspective.
In addition, when will you people stop forming judgments based on leaked pages instead of just waiting for the chapter?
Good chapter. This arc in the manga is far better than the anime.
In addition, when will you people stop forming judgments based on leaked pages instead of just waiting for the chapter?
Good chapter. This arc in the manga is far better than the anime.
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Are you just noticing? People are absolutely batshit insane nonsensical when evaluating this manga, to say the least. It's held up to an absurd standard by many people who's opinions might normally hold some weight. Often it's the case that if these certain members liked the anime's portrayal of something (or someone), and they refuse to accept anything that deviates from their own narrow expectations, even if the changes are minor. I get that it's a common trend in this fandom in general, but it's no less obnoxious than it ever has been.TKA wrote:Read 20 pages to get up to this point. I don't want to tell people how to enjoy a story, but goddamn. A lot of people here complain about the most inane stuff. "Why didn't X do Y." The obvious answer is it's a story and they're characters. They're not omniscient machines that do the most logical thing every single time. Come on, people. Have some perspective.
In addition, when will you people stop forming judgments based on leaked pages instead of just waiting for the chapter?
Good chapter. This arc in the manga is far better than the anime.
Mini-rant #1 over.
All that said, Toyotaro has gotten on my nerves a bit with the last two chapters. Someone needs to tell him that it's okay for a chapter of his to be similar to the anime. He seems to be going out of his way to make his version as unique as possible, which would be fine, I'm glad the manga has its own identity, but this makes two months he's gone so far as to sacrifice the integrity of the story itself for the sake of being different. There's a fine line between creativity and attention whoring, this is seeming more and more like the latter.
Last time, Toyotaro decided to fuck with time travel rules for some godforsaken reason, implementing totally arbitrary rules, some or which directly contradict the original story by most accounts. All this after he did so well to avoid some of the problems that the anime was plagued by, yet he feels the need to dig his own holes. This time (aside from the whole Gowasu ordeal being obvious fluff-drama, which recurs enough in DB separate from him for me not to care), he made such a bloody mess of the divine transformations. While I don't like Vegeta having achieved Red at all, I really wouldn't have minded if Toyotaro left it there. Naturally, he didn't, but essentially gutted the whole point for SSB to begin with, officially establishing that it's a stamina-eater (previously, only the act of transforming drained stamina, which was fine in my book). Down to the very core of its design, Blue is representative of calm, efficiency, control, and Toyotaro throws that obvious visual symbolism out the window cause reasons? His like of one form over another doesn't make that an okay thing to do.
Mini-rant #2 over.
I definitely disagree that the manga arc is better than the anime. At this point, I consider both more or less equally mediocre. Although I have to say that I lean towards the anime at this point, if only because I'm in love with several of those animators.
Maybe I'm sounding too harsh, so let me end on this: I don't hate the manga. I still plan to follow it every single month for now, but I don't like the direction it's headed. I'm already less-than enthused by the anime at the moment, so Toyotaro's increasing number of miscalculations is more off-putting than usual. Maybe I do just need to take a break from this, get into One Piece or something for a while
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