King Cold can transform

[Kamiccolo9]

Their ki were described as similar in size and feel, from what I remember.

Also, let's not forget that King Cold was mentioned by Freeza himself to be the only one able to inflict pain (or was it "harm"?) on his original form, so he can't really be that weak.

Or maybe Cold just spanked him when he was a kid. Let's try not to read too much into a throwaway line that has no exposition.

[Doctor.]

What's with everyone saying that Cold was weaker than Freeza? Didn't at least two people explicitly state that Cold had "a ki even more terrifying than Freeza"?

Yes, right after Gohan stated that Freeza was massively suppressed.

He's weaker than Freeza and he can't transform, the previous story arc would make no sense if he could, nor would his death make any sense either.

[Ringworm128]

It makes sense if you take in to consideration the fact that he thought the sword was all he needed.

[Gog]

What's with everyone saying that Cold was weaker than Freeza? Didn't at least two people explicitly state that Cold had "a ki even more terrifying than Freeza"?

Yes, right after Gohan stated that Freeza was massively suppressed.

He's weaker than Freeza and he can't transform, the previous story arc would make no sense if he could, nor would his death make any sense either.

The point of the forms are too suppress your strength. For all we know King Cold's suppression form only suppresses about 10% of his strength, which could be a reason for why he never bothered to transform against Trunks.

[Doctor.]

What's with everyone saying that Cold was weaker than Freeza? Didn't at least two people explicitly state that Cold had "a ki even more terrifying than Freeza"?

Yes, right after Gohan stated that Freeza was massively suppressed.

He's weaker than Freeza and he can't transform, the previous story arc would make no sense if he could, nor would his death make any sense either.

Do you have any proof of King Cold being unable to transform? And besides the point the forms suppress your strength. For all we know King Cold's suppression form only suppresses about 10% of his strength, which could be a reason for why he never bothered to transform against Trunks.

No, I don't have any proof, it's all an assumption, just like stating otherwise. I'm saying, from a story-standpoint, it'd make no sense if he could transform.

It makes sense if you take in to consideration the fact that he thought the sword was all he needed.

Doesn't work either considering he died to Goku in the future timeline, who didn't have any sword.

[Ringworm128]

We have never been given the details of that fight. For all we know he could have transformed and went to max power.

[Gog]

Yes, right after Gohan stated that Freeza was massively suppressed.

He's weaker than Freeza and he can't transform, the previous story arc would make no sense if he could, nor would his death make any sense either.

Do you have any proof of King Cold being unable to transform? And besides the point the forms suppress your strength. For all we know King Cold's suppression form only suppresses about 10% of his strength, which could be a reason for why he never bothered to transform against Trunks.

No, I don't have any proof, it's all an assumption, just like stating otherwise. I'm saying, from a story-standpoint, it'd make no sense if he could transform.

How is stating that he's capable of transforming an assumption? And of course it makes no sense from a story stand point, it's the equivalent of bringing Freeza back only to kill him off five minutes later. But from an in universe stand point he has to be capable of transformation.

[Doctor.]

We have never been given the details of that fight. For all we know he could have transformed and went to max power.

And again, that raises the question of why he didn't transform against Trunks. He had the chance. Yeah, he thought the sword was the key to Trunks' power but it evidently wasn't, and he still didn't try to buy time to transform. And he was so quick to call Trunks the strongest in the universe once Freeza died, too.

How is stating that he's capable of transforming an assumption?

Because it's never said in the series. If it's never said in the series, and you're saying something that wasn't said in the series based on evidence, then you're making an assumption, not asserting a truth.

But from an in universe stand point he has to be capable of transformation.

It doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective either, or else Freeza wouldn't think of himself as the strongest in the universe nor would Cold suppress himself against Trunks/Goku.

[Ringworm128]

But, he did try to buy time. "I'l give you an entire solar system". If Trunks hadn't just killed him who knows what would have happened.

[Gog]

Because it's never said in the series. If it's never said in the series, and you're saying something that wasn't said in the series based on evidence, then you're making an assumption, not asserting a truth.

Then it's more of a theory then, not an assumption. Also I do have a lot of evidence here.

It doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective either, or else Freeza wouldn't think of himself as the strongest in the universe nor would Cold suppress himself against Trunks/Goku.

But here's the thing, what's to say that King Cold's suppression form halved his strength or lowered it by 10%? Once again these are suppression forms, you can choose how much you want these forms to suppress your power. And King Cold being unable to transform makes less in universe.

[Doctor.]

But, he did try to buy time. "I'l give you an entire solar system". If Trunks hadn't just killed him who knows what would have happened.

And never once did he power-up. If he was getting that desperate to start bargaining with Trunks, you'd think he would just say fuck it and try to transform regardless of the situation he was in. But he didn't.

Then it's more of a theory then, not an assumption. Also I do have a lot of evidence here.

Theories and assumptions go hand-in-hand. Evidence which isn't conclusive.

But here's the thing, what's to say that King Cold's suppression form halved his strength or lowered it by 10%? Once again these are suppression forms, you can choose how much you want these forms to suppress your power. And King Cold being unable to transform makes less in universe.

Freeza's forms were made specifically because his power was so huge he couldn't control it. If Cold has other forms and made suppression forms, we can assume it was for the same reason. So, why would he leave his form at such a high power?

It doesn't make less sense in-universe because we know absolutely nothing about Freeza's family or species within the manga itself.

[Gog]

Theories and assumptions go hand-in-hand. Evidence which isn't conclusive.

Eh, theory sounds better.

Freeza's forms were made specifically because his power was so huge he couldn't control it. If Cold has other forms and made suppression forms, we can assume it was for the same reason. So, why would he leave his form at such a high power?

It doesn't make less sense in-universe because we know absolutely nothing about Freeza's family or species within the manga itself.

Then yes that does in fact make sense with what Akira Toriyama has stated about them. They're both mutants the only difference is King Cold decided to suppress less of his strength while Freeza suppressed more.

It makes absolutely no sense with what Akira Toriyama has stated, what has been shown in universe and with the designs shown. Also we do know quite a bit about the race.

[Doctor.]

They're both mutants the only difference is King Cold decided to suppress less of his strength while Freeza suppressed more.

Or their true forms just aren't similar. We're talking about fictional alien creatures.

It makes absolutely no sense with what Akira Toriyama has stated, what has been shown in universe and with the designs shown. Also we do know quite a bit about the race.

The manga takes precedence over Toriyama's interviews post-serialization or potential retcons in sequels. At least I was only talking about the manga.

[Gog]

Or their true forms just aren't similar. We're talking about fictional alien creatures.

Nah, evidence points against that fact. And their fictional alien creatures with clear defined rules on what they look like.

The manga takes precedence over Toriyama's interviews post-serialization or potential retcons in sequels. At least I was only talking about the manga.

Even if you ignore Toriyama's statements, the manga still contradicts the idea that King Cold is in his true form with Second Form Freeza.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Ringworm128]

It was in in a matter of seconds. In fact if I recall Trunks killed him mid sentence. He was given no time.

[Doctor.]

Nah, evidence points against that fact. And their fictional alien creatures with clear defined rules on what they look like.

It doesn't, really. Genetics is your argument. It's true that offspring of an asexual creature are perfect clones, but the difference is that king Cold is specifically stated to be a mutant and that his mutant traits were passed down to Freeza. We don't know what the full extent of these "mutant traits" are. Freeza could have initially looked like Cold but his "mutant traits" manifested in different ways when he was being conceived or during his childhood as he was developing.

Not to mention we have an example of asexual reproduction in the series where the offspring look different: king Piccolo and his minions as well as Piccolo Jr.

Even if you ignore Toriyama's statements, the manga still contradicts the idea that King Cold is in his true form with Second Form Freeza.

Is Lunch a Super Saiyan because she has blonde hair? Is Kaioken a form of Super Saiyan God because it's red? Appearances mean nothing.

It was in in a matter of seconds. In fact if I recall Trunks killed him mid sentence. He was given no time.

Then he's an idiot for not transforming before fighting him. You know, the guy that suggested to blow up Earth from space, showcasing a relatively pragmatic personality.

I don't get why people want to justify this headcanon of theirs at the expense of the story.

[Ringworm128]

Except it's established that Lunch isn't a Saiyan and the Kaioken is just a technique. It's also established that Cold is of the same race as Freeza and that his form is almost identical to Freeza's 2nd. And in Super it seems that Freeza's race all seem to share similar transformations.

[Doctor.]

Except it's established that Lunch isn't a Saiyan and the Kaioken is just a technique. It's also established that Cold is of the same race as Freeza and that his form is almost identical to Freeza's 2nd. And in Super it seems that Freeza's race all seem to share similar transformations.

And we go back to the beginning: making assumptions.

Frost is specifically stated to be Freeza's counterpart. It's a stretch to think they have the same transformations, but it's not totally unbelievable. Not like it matters because I was referring to the information in the manga.

[Gog]

Before we continue... Debating against you is fun.

It doesn't, really. Genetics is your argument. It's true that offspring of an asexual creature are perfect clones, but the difference is that king Cold is specifically stated to be a mutant and that his mutant traits were passed down to Freeza. We don't know what the full extent of these "mutant traits" are. Freeza could have initially looked like Cold but his "mutant traits" manifested in different ways when he was being conceived or during his childhood as he was developing.

Genetics isn't my only argument. But here's the thing Freeza was stated to be 'in strong possession of his father's mutant traits', he wasn't stated to be far more mutated than his father is. The problem with that is that would mean King Cold originally looked liked his second form before he mutated even further beyond too the finial form. The mutation is not different.

Not to mention we have an example of asexual reproduction in the series where the offspring look different: king Piccolo and his minions as well as Piccolo Jr.

We have no idea whenever or not that was just some fancy magic trick, as no Namekian has ever shown the ability to do such a thing but Piccolo Daimo.

Is Lunch a Super Saiyan because she has blonde hair? Is Kaioken a form of Super Saiyan God because it's red? Appearances mean nothing.

Do appearances mean nothing when every finial form in the franchise that has been designed by Akira Toriyama himself, has always had a similar design scheme. And not once has that design scheme been breached or changed once?

[Ringworm128]

But we have evidence to back up our "assumption". At worst it's a theory.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts