Two more levels to a Super Saiyan 4 theory

[innocent_rage]

I was thinking about how the standard ssj form can be mutated/forced into stronger forms such as ssj2 and ssj3......so what about ssj4 ?
ssj4 to me isn't a follow up to ssj3 and is a completely new form on its own,for example,if goku had a tail in the cell games saga and transformed into a golden oozaru and pushed even further there's a chance he could have
become a ssj4.

so since ssj4 is new form and only at level 1 ,can there be a chance to mutate/force that power into ultra ssj 4 ,and even level 2/3 like the golden ssj forms ?

[Vertical]

SSJ4 is, as you said, completely different to SSJ.

...so why would it follow a similar path?

Also, you have to go through Golden Oozaru to achieve it, so wouldn't it count as a "level 2" transformation by your standards?

[cheddarsword]

SSJ4 is, as you said, completely different to SSJ.

...so why would it follow a similar path?

Also, you have to go through Golden Oozaru to achieve it, so wouldn't it count as a "level 2" transformation by your standards?

or level 3 if you consider standard Oozaru as a more than just a base form. it is technicaly a transformation.

i get the idea though. Super Saiyan God, then Super Saiyan form within Super Saiyan god (SSB) and so on should Super take that route.

not to mention standard Oozaru followed by Golden Oozaru, which can be considered Super Saiyan Oozaru.

the logic is there, but i'm just not sure it would apply to Super Saiyan 4, given how much of a twisting of the Oozaru form that it is.

of course, there is the argument that SS4 gogeta having red hair instead of black could have meant he had attained a new form within SS4... but i'm hesitant to open up the DBAF can of worms.

[Saturnine]

SSj4 is Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru's glorified fanfic OC creation. Can it progress to higher forms with golden fur? Well how the hell are we supposed to know?

Anyway, most folks seem to follow the gray-haired SSj5 design in their headcanons

[TheMikado]

So I've written on this before, but my belief is that SSJ4 granted a baseline of x500 over base. This is the SSJ multiplier 50 x the oozaru multiplier 10.

This would be the equivalent to SSJ grade 1. I personally believe because it is based on the SSJ levels it allows for grades. I think this is evident in SSJ4 Full Power. Which I have estimated is the equivalent of SSJ2. Meaning it likely gives a multiplier of around x1000 over base.

It may be theoretically possible to push SSJ4 beyond its natural states but I think would have no idea what that looks like. But yes, I believe a SSJ4 based on SSJ3 should be theoretical possible but not easily.

[cheddarsword]

one possibility is that if needed, you could add in Ascended and Ultra states. it wouldn't be too far fetched if you think about it. look at Broly when he has SS4 form in the games. buff as hell, just like his LSS form, which theoretically is just the next step in pushing super saiyan to it's limits after ultra.

as for broly not being canon, and the games even less so... you're talking about GT here. canon has left the building.

[innocent_rage]

one possibility is that if needed, you could add in Ascended and Ultra states. it wouldn't be too far fetched if you think about it. look at Broly when he has SS4 form in the games. buff as hell, just like his LSS form, which theoretically is just the next step in pushing super saiyan to it's limits after ultra.

as for broly not being canon, and the games even less so... you're talking about GT here. canon has left the building.

ah right i forget about ssj4 broly ,he was in his ultra ssj state wasn't he

[innocent_rage]

SSj4 is Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru's glorified fanfic OC creation. Can it progress to higher forms with golden fur? Well how the hell are we supposed to know?

Anyway, most folks seem to follow the gray-haired SSj5 design in their headcanons

yes no one would know for sure,but i guess ill stick to at-least ultra ssj4 a possibility.

[innocent_rage]

SSJ4 is, as you said, completely different to SSJ.

...so why would it follow a similar path?

Also, you have to go through Golden Oozaru to achieve it, so wouldn't it count as a "level 2" transformation by your standards?

well yes ssj4 doesn't need to follow the golden ssj stages i guess ,but i'm just asking a "what if" or can it be possible .

[innocent_rage]

So I've written on this before, but my belief is that SSJ4 granted a baseline of x500 over base. This is the SSJ multiplier 50 x the oozaru multiplier 10.

This would be the equivalent to SSJ grade 1. I personally believe because it is based on the SSJ levels it allows for grades. I think this is evident in SSJ4 Full Power. Which I have estimated is the equivalent of SSJ2. Meaning it likely gives a multiplier of around x1000 over base.

It may be theoretically possible to push SSJ4 beyond its natural states but I think would have no idea what that looks like. But yes, I believe a SSJ4 based on SSJ3 should be theoretical possible but not easily.

thanks for your input TheMikado

[cheddarsword]

one possibility is that if needed, you could add in Ascended and Ultra states. it wouldn't be too far fetched if you think about it. look at Broly when he has SS4 form in the games. buff as hell, just like his LSS form, which theoretically is just the next step in pushing super saiyan to it's limits after ultra.

as for broly not being canon, and the games even less so... you're talking about GT here. canon has left the building.

ah right i forget about ssj4 broly ,he was in his ultra ssj state wasn't he

not really. the "LSS" form is somewhat different from Ultra, which is apparently called Grade 3... didn't know they had official names until recently.

if you're curious, i've started a topic on differences in power scaling between Ascended (Grade 2), Ultra (Grade 3) and LSS (which i personaly consider either Grade 4 or Grade 5.)

[Berserker1921]

Personally I see ssj4 as like a fusion between a great ape and super saiyan transformation. The books mentioned ssj4 is 4000x base. So as I see it. It's ssj3 x great ape form. Gives you the pros of both super saiyan and great ape. And none of the cons.

[cheddarsword]

Personally I see ssj4 as like a fusion between a great ape and super saiyan transformation.

no offense, but isn't that what golden oozaru is?

the rest of your statement makes sense otherwise.

personaly, i see it as a manipulation of the great ape form. or even mastery over it.

the biggest problem i have with super saiyan 4 in fact, is this: WHY THE HELL DIDN'T OLD KAI PULL THIS OUT OF HIS ASS DURING THE BUU SAGA WHEN IT WOULD HAVE HELPED!? i mean really! toriyama isn't even THAT inconsistent! usually!

[Berserker1921]

Personally I see ssj4 as like a fusion between a great ape and super saiyan transformation.

no offense, but isn't that what golden oozaru is?

the rest of your statement makes sense otherwise.

personaly, i see it as a manipulation of the great ape form. or even mastery over it.

the biggest problem i have with super saiyan 4 in fact, is this: WHY THE HELL DIDN'T OLD KAI PULL THIS OUT OF HIS ASS DURING THE BUU SAGA WHEN IT WOULD HAVE HELPED!? i mean really! toriyama isn't even THAT inconsistent! usually!

Golden great ape is the unmastered form of that. Also toriyama didn't really help with Gt. Mostly a toei thing. If it did exist in db canon. Then yes this form would be helpful before ssj God discovery.

[cheddarsword]

Personally I see ssj4 as like a fusion between a great ape and super saiyan transformation.

no offense, but isn't that what golden oozaru is?

the rest of your statement makes sense otherwise.

personaly, i see it as a manipulation of the great ape form. or even mastery over it.

the biggest problem i have with super saiyan 4 in fact, is this: WHY THE HELL DIDN'T OLD KAI PULL THIS OUT OF HIS ASS DURING THE BUU SAGA WHEN IT WOULD HAVE HELPED!? i mean really! toriyama isn't even THAT inconsistent! usually!

Golden great ape is the unmastered form of that. Also toriyama didn't really help with Gt. Mostly a toei thing. If it did exist in db canon. Then yes this form would be helpful before ssj God discovery.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that the really should have used someone else as the source of information for SS4. using old kai, who was arround in the buu saga when the form would have been helpful, makes it seem like such an ass pull.

[szopman]

The problem is that DBS retconned SSJ3. It's just an additional level, like USSJ. You don't really need to obtain this transformation to go further (Vegeta and Trunks didn't and went superior levels). + It's better to master SSJ2 (just like mastering SSJ1 is better than using USSJ).

Moreover, between SSJ3 and 4 we have many other levels: Rage, God, Blue. So these numbers don't have any sense now

[cheddarsword]

OK, maybe it's just me, but I've seen some old topics being posted in lately. This one however, has gone nearly a month without a new post, so I have to ask.

What counts as necro posting on this site? Just curious. No offense to the staff intended.

For that matter, the new post doesn't seem all that relevant... Granted though, it's more on topic than me right now but meh.

[Captain Strawberry]

Not sure if I understand but my answer is mo because SSj4 is states to be a different species in the guidebooks as far as I know

[szopman]

I've always assumed that there are only 2 types of Saiyan transformations:
1) the fundamental levels, which are the evolution chain of SSJ transformations. They can't be ommited, and you have to master one to be able to reach another. That would be SSJ1, SSJ2, God, Blue, Golden Oozaru and SSJ4.
2) the additional levels/mutations that are only some additions, improvements but aren't part of the "evolution" of SSJ. For eg. you don't have to reach USSJ to become SSJ2. In my opinion, these would be ASSJ, USSJ, SSJ3, Mystic and LSSJ.

I'm not sure about SSJ Rage. We don't know much about this level. Is it one of the "fundamental" levels or just some additional power-up? We don't know if for eg. Vegeta reached Rage before God. Or maybe it's some kind of hybrid-saiyans's version of SSJGod? Maybe they will explain this some day

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It may be theoretically possible to push SSJ4 beyond its natural states but I think would have no idea what that looks like. But yes, I believe a SSJ4 based on SSJ3 should be theoretical possible but not easily.

They could probably power up SS4, but I don't believe they can transform ontop of SS4, because its a complete physical overhaul completely, so transforming into a SS4 ontop of it seems redundant. (Like the logic people apply to Ultimate Gohan going SS which should be impossible). At best, to my head canon, with God ki I would say it would be possible to go SS4 Blue, but nothing beyond that. The normal SS power is already accumulated ki into their SS4 power (though that is also semi-head canonical as SS4 seems to be the least draining form they had).

Anyway, most folks seem to follow the gray-haired SSj5 design in their headcanons

I honestly don't see the fascination with a white-haired form. It never looked powerful to me conceptually, like what Toriyama said: it makes them look to "old" and I have to agree.