How do you make the human characters useful in battle without it being contrived, inconsistent or fanficy?

[Totamo]

To make them useful in the saiyan saga, they trained with kami for a year and got stronger than Goku, Piccolo and Raditz. But Goku did the same training for 3.


Tien used the tribeam to hold back cell and blast away super buu's blast, but that didn't make any sense in terms of power.


You can say, they should train with Whis but for what reason and how strong should they possibly get?


Z made this extremely difficult to do. Super is trying to make them useful again and Toriyama is used to writing himself out of corners but the things he did back then would look like the things i mention before now.


Any suggestions?

[Freeza9000]

Simple, have Krillin kill Zen'o at the end of the arc with the Kienzan and have him be the new King of All.

[Simere]

Anything will feel contrived after so long with them being not useful, even if it's perfectly plausible. Actually, in order to not feel fanficy, it would be better if it felt contrived and inconsistent.

[MisteryOne]

I trough the creation of a tournament where power doesn't matter that much and tactics would be way more important was pretty much a perfect way to do it. It was simple. But no, lets make Krillin God Tier for no reason. Seriously, why on hell did the make him fight SSB Goku? There is no point on the whole «oh yeah power levels not matter that much in the tournament, lets use Roshi» bit them make the human that strong. Its just a so obvious contradiction that I don't get how its possible that the writers didn't trough of it. They are even more inconsistent that Toriyama never was.

So, to answer the question: just allow them to use tactics, to defeat stronger oponents by team work or new tecniques. It isn't hard at all. Champa arc showed us that being God tier is something difficult to archieve, so most of the opponents should be way weaker than Gokj and Vegeta. There is literally no reason at all to make ot contrived, inconsistent or «fanficy» (what does that word mean anyway? There are a hell lot of fanfics better writed than Super)

[MisteryOne]

To make them useful in the saiyan saga, they trained with kami for a year and got stronger than Goku, Piccolo and Raditz. But Goku did the same training for 3.


Tien used the tribeam to hold back cell and blast away super buu's blast, but that didn't make any sense in terms of power.


You can say, they should train with Whis but for what reason and how strong should they possibly get?


Z made this extremely difficult to do. Super is trying to make them useful again and Toriyama is used to writing himself out of corners but the things he did back then would look like the things i mention before now.


Any suggestions?

What do you mean with «for what reason» should they train with Whis? He has a fucking magical staff that's like a ROSAT but better. Why not use it, even if its just for some hours? It would not contradict anything and human characters being God tier would make sense (But again, is not necesary at all! Just use fucking tactical fights!)

[Totamo]

I trough the creation of a tournament where power doesn't matter that much and tactics would be way more important was pretty much a perfect way to do it. It was simple. But no, lets make Krillin God Tier for no reason. Seriously, why on hell did the make him fight SSB Goku? There is no point on the whole «oh yeah power levels not matter that much in the tournament, lets use Roshi» bit them make the human that strong. Its just a so obvious contradiction that I don't get how its possible that the writers didn't trough of it. They are even more inconsistent that Toriyama never was.

So, to answer the question: just allow them to use tactics, to defeat stronger oponents by team work or new tecniques. It isn't hard at all. Champa arc showed us that being God tier is something difficult to archieve, so most of the opponents should be way weaker than Gokj and Vegeta. There is literally no reason at all to make ot contrived, inconsistent or «fanficy» (what does that word mean anyway? There are a hell lot of fanfics better writed than Super)

Are you kidding? Do you know how many people are complaining about krillin, tien and roshi being in the tournament and not goten, trunks and yamcha because the latter 3 are stronger?! Or that U7 best 10 are from the same planet?!

And it's written and they are ton worst out there too like the GOTEN BLACK THEORISTS!

[Totamo]

To make them useful in the saiyan saga, they trained with kami for a year and got stronger than Goku, Piccolo and Raditz. But Goku did the same training for 3.


Tien used the tribeam to hold back cell and blast away super buu's blast, but that didn't make any sense in terms of power.


You can say, they should train with Whis but for what reason and how strong should they possibly get?


Z made this extremely difficult to do. Super is trying to make them useful again and Toriyama is used to writing himself out of corners but the things he did back then would look like the things i mention before now.


Any suggestions?

What do you mean with «for what reason» should they train with Whis? He has a fucking magical staff that's like a ROSAT but better. Why not use it, even if its just for some hours? It would not contradict anything and human characters being God tier would make sense (But again, is not necesary at all! Just use fucking tactical fights!)

Whis trained Goku and Vegeta to be rivals to be beerus and because they give him food. What can the humans gI've that those 2 can't. He also has no stakes in this tournament and giving everyone god ki ruins the special concept of it Hence why many were mad about super saiyan god vegeta.

Whis training the z fighters to match goku and vegeta or enter their tier would be just like when they did it with kami in the saiyan saga. It was contrived and undermine Goku's training.

[MisteryOne]

I trough the creation of a tournament where power doesn't matter that much and tactics would be way more important was pretty much a perfect way to do it. It was simple. But no, lets make Krillin God Tier for no reason. Seriously, why on hell did the make him fight SSB Goku? There is no point on the whole «oh yeah power levels not matter that much in the tournament, lets use Roshi» bit them make the human that strong. Its just a so obvious contradiction that I don't get how its possible that the writers didn't trough of it. They are even more inconsistent that Toriyama never was.

So, to answer the question: just allow them to use tactics, to defeat stronger oponents by team work or new tecniques. It isn't hard at all. Champa arc showed us that being God tier is something difficult to archieve, so most of the opponents should be way weaker than Gokj and Vegeta. There is literally no reason at all to make ot contrived, inconsistent or «fanficy» (what does that word mean anyway? There are a hell lot of fanfics better writed than Super)

Are you kidding? Do you know how many people are complaining about krillin, tien and roshi being in the tournament and not goten, trunks and yamcha because the latter 3 are stronger?! Or that U7 best 10 are from the same planet?!

And it's written and they are ton worst out there too like the GOTEN BLACK THEORISTS!

Have you even read my comment? Goten, Trunks and Yamcha being excluded made sense because it was a tournament where power didn't matter. Now they are making clear that is THE OPPOSITE and they are just being excluded because they don't have Krillin/Saitama's level of asspull.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Not possible.

Do people forget the only reason Whis trained Goku and Vegata was that there were both GoD choices?

[Yedis]

Too late now in hindsight they probably could have scaled down the Saiyans gaining ridiculous amount of power by punching air for a few months

[ChaosLordBrandon]

I trough the creation of a tournament where power doesn't matter that much and tactics would be way more important was pretty much a perfect way to do it. It was simple. But no, lets make Krillin God Tier for no reason. Seriously, why on hell did the make him fight SSB Goku? There is no point on the whole «oh yeah power levels not matter that much in the tournament, lets use Roshi» bit them make the human that strong. Its just a so obvious contradiction that I don't get how its possible that the writers didn't trough of it. They are even more inconsistent that Toriyama never was.

So, to answer the question: just allow them to use tactics, to defeat stronger oponents by team work or new tecniques. It isn't hard at all. Champa arc showed us that being God tier is something difficult to archieve, so most of the opponents should be way weaker than Gokj and Vegeta. There is literally no reason at all to make ot contrived, inconsistent or «fanficy» (what does that word mean anyway? There are a hell lot of fanfics better writed than Super)

SSJ and Freeza were big deals in the freeza arc and was suprassed by androids from earth in the next arc . and I don't know any db ones since 95% of them are just evil saiyans vs goku

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Too late now in hindsight they probably could have scaled down the Saiyans gaining ridiculous amount of power by punching air for a few months

Z raised the bar way to high for Super or even GT to make the sides characters being useful with it being inconsistent, contrived or fancficy.

[MisteryOne]

To make them useful in the saiyan saga, they trained with kami for a year and got stronger than Goku, Piccolo and Raditz. But Goku did the same training for 3.


Tien used the tribeam to hold back cell and blast away super buu's blast, but that didn't make any sense in terms of power.


You can say, they should train with Whis but for what reason and how strong should they possibly get?


Z made this extremely difficult to do. Super is trying to make them useful again and Toriyama is used to writing himself out of corners but the things he did back then would look like the things i mention before now.


Any suggestions?

What do you mean with «for what reason» should they train with Whis? He has a fucking magical staff that's like a ROSAT but better. Why not use it, even if its just for some hours? It would not contradict anything and human characters being God tier would make sense (But again, is not necesary at all! Just use fucking tactical fights!)

Whis trained Goku and Vegeta to be rivals to be beerus and because they give him food. What can the humans gI've that those 2 can't. He also has no stakes in this tournament and giving everyone god ki ruins the special concept of it Hence why many were mad about super saiyan god vegeta.

Whis training the z fighters to match goku and vegeta or enter their tier would be just like when they did it with kami in the saiyan saga. It was contrived and undermine Goku's training.

I know this is going to sound rude, but what you are saying is the most stupid thing I have ever read on this forum
- It doesn't neccesary has to be like in the Saiyan saga. In that saga it was contraived because of the DURATION of rhe training, not for the training itself. If Krillin trains a few hours inside RoSAT and is not as strong as actual Blue Goku (WAY weaker than when he trained with Whis, remember?) But close to it there is no reason for it to be contraived.
- Yeah, giving everyone God Ki arruins the concept of it and a human who was way weaker than Frieza in Namek months ago being able to be GOD LEVEL doesn't arruin the concept of it. Do you even read before writing? IT COMPLETELY ARRUINS IT. Why train with an angel, why become a God with an ancient ritual, why train fro YEARS to become a SS2 ,a SS3 and a SSBlue training in special enviroments, WHY, if you can just stop training like Krillin and then return to the fight so months later you are GOD level? Seriously, by using your logic, you are saying Krillin actually EARNING God Ki trough a HARD training, even if he doesn't get to Blue level, arruins God Ki, but not doing ABSOLUTELY anything for months yet being at that level doesn't ruin it? Same goes for 18, who aparently was surprassed by a hell lot of people, but without TRAINING AT ALL she can just kick out A GOD KAME HAME HA! The same attack that DAMAGED MERGED ZAMASU! Why would you bother to obtain God Ki if you can just do nothing? How does this not arruin it? Why did Zamasu stole Goku's body, became a SSRose, why did he fused with his inmortal future self, if the problem he gained could have been archieved by just doing what Krillin said? Whats the point of God Ki? What's so special about it anymore apart from not being sensed? (Which is nlt true anymore since Cabba sensed Blue Vegeta and Krillin sensed Goku Black)

- They don't need to give Whis anything. Even ignoring that there are MILLIONS of different food combinations they can give him (even cook them in Yamcha's case), it has been said that until the Hakaishin dies, the Angel has to serve him. If Beerus was not a stupid and completely ineficient GoD, he would just tell him to train them. Do I have to rememeber you that Whis DIDN'T want Goku and Vegeta to enter in his staff so soon yet Beerus told him to do it and he did it?

And yeah, before anyone says nothing, I know this will probably be deleted and I will banned. I don't really care anyomore. Its just too anoying the amount of nonsensical fanboyism some people show just to try to make sense of something that is not trying to be consistent at all. I will just stick around in the Fan Created Works section I suppose.

[MisteryOne]

I trough the creation of a tournament where power doesn't matter that much and tactics would be way more important was pretty much a perfect way to do it. It was simple. But no, lets make Krillin God Tier for no reason. Seriously, why on hell did the make him fight SSB Goku? There is no point on the whole «oh yeah power levels not matter that much in the tournament, lets use Roshi» bit them make the human that strong. Its just a so obvious contradiction that I don't get how its possible that the writers didn't trough of it. They are even more inconsistent that Toriyama never was.

So, to answer the question: just allow them to use tactics, to defeat stronger oponents by team work or new tecniques. It isn't hard at all. Champa arc showed us that being God tier is something difficult to archieve, so most of the opponents should be way weaker than Gokj and Vegeta. There is literally no reason at all to make ot contrived, inconsistent or «fanficy» (what does that word mean anyway? There are a hell lot of fanfics better writed than Super)

SSJ and Freeza were big deals in the freeza arc and was suprassed by androids from earth in the next arc . and I don't know any db ones since 95% of them are just evil saiyans vs goku

And? The gap of power between a non-android human and Namek Freeza is way SMALLER rhan the gap between Krillin and a Super Saiyan Blue. Not only that, but villains surpasing heroes with less effort is a way to move tje plot. It has nothing to do with Krillin's case, with is not important for the plot since there was NO reason at ALL for make him fight SSB Goku and have a similar power, since this is a tournament NOT ABOUT POWER! Seriously, just reread my comments. Its a simple thing, but the problem is that you are trying to justify something that not even Toei's writers tried to. Saying that 95% of the fanfics are like that just shows your ignorance. Even on this forum you can see fanfics with a writing and consistency quality hundreds of times better than Super, because the authours actually care about what they are writing.

[Totamo]

What do you mean with «for what reason» should they train with Whis? He has a fucking magical staff that's like a ROSAT but better. Why not use it, even if its just for some hours? It would not contradict anything and human characters being God tier would make sense (But again, is not necesary at all! Just use fucking tactical fights!)

Whis trained Goku and Vegeta to be rivals to be beerus and because they give him food. What can the humans gI've that those 2 can't. He also has no stakes in this tournament and giving everyone god ki ruins the special concept of it Hence why many were mad about super saiyan god vegeta.

Whis training the z fighters to match goku and vegeta or enter their tier would be just like when they did it with kami in the saiyan saga. It was contrived and undermine Goku's training.

I know this is going to sound rude, but what you are saying is the most stupid thing I have ever read on this forum
- It doesn't neccesary has to be like in the Saiyan saga. In that saga it was contraived because of the DURATION of rhe training, not for the training itself. If Krillin trains a few hours inside RoSAT and is not as strong as actual Blue Goku (WAY weaker than when he trained with Whis, remember?) But close to it there is no reason for it to be contraived.
- Yeah, giving everyone God Ki arruins the concept of it and a human who was way weaker than Frieza in Namek months ago being able to be GOD LEVEL doesn't arruin the concept of it. Do you even read before writing? IT COMPLETELY ARRUINS IT. Why train with an angel, why become a God with an ancient ritual, why train fro YEARS to become a SS2 ,a SS3 and a SSBlue training in special enviroments, WHY, if you can just stop training like Krillin and then return to the fight so months later you are GOD level? Seriously, by using your logic, you are saying Krillin actually EARNING God Ki trough a HARD training, even if he doesn't get to Blue level, arruins God Ki, but not doing ABSOLUTELY anything for months yet being at that level doesn't ruin it? Same goes for 18, who aparently was surprassed by a hell lot of people, but without TRAINING AT ALL she can just kick out A GOD KAME HAME HA! The same attack that DAMAGED MERGED ZAMASU! Why would you bother to obtain God Ki if you can just do nothing? How does this not arruin it? Why did Zamasu stole Goku's body, became a SSRose, why did he fused with his inmortal future self, if the problem he gained could have been archieved by just doing what Krillin said? Whats the point of God Ki? What's so special about it anymore apart from not being sensed? (Which is nlt true anymore since Cabba sensed Blue Vegeta and Krillin sensed Goku Black)

- They don't need to give Whis anything. Even ignoring that there are MILLIONS of different food combinations they can give him (even cook them in Yamcha's case), it has been said that until the Hakaishin dies, the Angel has to serve him. If Beerus was not a stupid and completely ineficient GoD, he would just tell him to train them. Do I have to rememeber you that Whis DIDN'T want Goku and Vegeta to enter in his staff so soon yet Beerus told him to do it and he did it?

And yeah, before anyone says nothing, I know this will probably be deleted and I will banned. I don't really care anyomore. Its just too anoying the amount of nonsensical fanboyism some people show just to try to make sense of something that is not trying to be consistent at all. I will just stick around in the Fan Created Works section I suppose.

I am done speaking with you. Go read your stupid fanfics for all I care.

[Totamo]

Whis trained Goku and Vegeta to be rivals to be beerus and because they give him food. What can the humans gI've that those 2 can't. He also has no stakes in this tournament and giving everyone god ki ruins the special concept of it Hence why many were mad about super saiyan god vegeta.

Whis training the z fighters to match goku and vegeta or enter their tier would be just like when they did it with kami in the saiyan saga. It was contrived and undermine Goku's training.

I know this is going to sound rude, but what you are saying is the most stupid thing I have ever read on this forum
- It doesn't neccesary has to be like in the Saiyan saga. In that saga it was contraived because of the DURATION of rhe training, not for the training itself. If Krillin trains a few hours inside RoSAT and is not as strong as actual Blue Goku (WAY weaker than when he trained with Whis, remember?) But close to it there is no reason for it to be contraived.
- Yeah, giving everyone God Ki arruins the concept of it and a human who was way weaker than Frieza in Namek months ago being able to be GOD LEVEL doesn't arruin the concept of it. Do you even read before writing? IT COMPLETELY ARRUINS IT. Why train with an angel, why become a God with an ancient ritual, why train fro YEARS to become a SS2 ,a SS3 and a SSBlue training in special enviroments, WHY, if you can just stop training like Krillin and then return to the fight so months later you are GOD level? Seriously, by using your logic, you are saying Krillin actually EARNING God Ki trough a HARD training, even if he doesn't get to Blue level, arruins God Ki, but not doing ABSOLUTELY anything for months yet being at that level doesn't ruin it? Same goes for 18, who aparently was surprassed by a hell lot of people, but without TRAINING AT ALL she can just kick out A GOD KAME HAME HA! The same attack that DAMAGED MERGED ZAMASU! Why would you bother to obtain God Ki if you can just do nothing? How does this not arruin it? Why did Zamasu stole Goku's body, became a SSRose, why did he fused with his inmortal future self, if the problem he gained could have been archieved by just doing what Krillin said? Whats the point of God Ki? What's so special about it anymore apart from not being sensed? (Which is nlt true anymore since Cabba sensed Blue Vegeta and Krillin sensed Goku Black)

- They don't need to give Whis anything. Even ignoring that there are MILLIONS of different food combinations they can give him (even cook them in Yamcha's case), it has been said that until the Hakaishin dies, the Angel has to serve him. If Beerus was not a stupid and completely ineficient GoD, he would just tell him to train them. Do I have to rememeber you that Whis DIDN'T want Goku and Vegeta to enter in his staff so soon yet Beerus told him to do it and he did it?

And yeah, before anyone says nothing, I know this will probably be deleted and I will banned. I don't really care anyomore. Its just too anoying the amount of nonsensical fanboyism some people show just to try to make sense of something that is not trying to be consistent at all. I will just stick around in the Fan Created Works section I suppose.

Ok, Now I'm back and cooled off. I hate to stoop to this level of commenting. I made that mistake once, I won't do it again. I will say my opinion respectfully and unlike you, I will not try to antagonize.

The human training with kami was not contrived because of the duration, it was because of the power jump to make them useful again. Goku, Piccolo and Raditz are warrior aliens possessing far greater potential than the humans and they are no slackers, so tell me how making those 3 more powerful than them just using training not feel forced? How was that power jump natural for characters that were weaker than teen goku who struggled during his time

Second, no krillin being able to match super saiyan blue does not destroy the god concept. Only if you equate it to power then i must ask you is that all dragon ball Thats like saying 2 teenagers made with tech far below freeza's, defeating super saiyans destroys that concept. Sure, they were stronger but its dumb that the form used to take down the universal dictator was outdone by cyborgs made on Earth. What destroyed the super saiyan concept is not when it was beaten or equaled, it was when everyone got it that ruined it and its the same with god ki.

Third, if whis doesn't want to do something, beerus can't make him. Beerus literally asks, bribe your father so he can get us out of the tournament, whis insults him. Whis is also spared of destruction and just has to wait for another. I also wouldn't use character statements as your evidence as the show has a tendency to contradict it. Whis has been shown to go against Beerus multiple times and even If they did train them and they did get close to Goku, its the power jump that will be contrived like the saiyan saga and god ki will be like giving everyone candy. Thats how things are ruined when everyone has it.

Fourth, Fanboyism is annoying but so are watching the same people complain about a show they know will not change, we are almost 90 episodes in and super has used the same formula yet you are still here. and trying to make sense out of something not trying to be consistent. Akira Toriyama has said it himself that he throws things when he is odne with them and forgets about about them to move on and if he did the best things in dragon ball never would have happened.


Fan created works are nice but take one project and make it long running with no source material under a big cooperation divide it among several other writers all not working on the same episode, give them a deadline, set plotpoints yet their own freedom to add ideas even if they make no sense and then we will see how consistent and wellwritten it is and considering how most fans only seem to care about power and don't even know ball, my guess is a fanservice galore with little story.

[Basako]

By making a team tournament event with the rules of not killing and lasting in the game as far as they can. From 70 opponents, many could have their same power level.

[VegettoEX]

And yeah, before anyone says nothing, I know this will probably be deleted and I will banned. I don't really care anyomore. Its just too anoying the amount of nonsensical fanboyism some people show just to try to make sense of something that is not trying to be consistent at all.

Then... I mean, just... don't visit and don't post.

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