Super Saiyan Grade 3 vs Super Saiyan 2

[TheUltimateNinja]

Cell doesn't need to show his true power to admit inferiority to Trunks. Trunks is stronger than Cell as stated by Cell himself. Period. I have never seen this much denial for something this clear cut.
No, Cell didn't show his true power. All he did was inflate his muscles with ki. His true power is what he was stated to use against Gohan, not his Buff form.

Cell also told Goku this:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.”
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.”

So does this mean Goku's close to being Cell's equal? Of course not. But according to you it's totally clear cut that Cell and Goku are on the same level, right?

Relatively speaking by Cells own subjective reasoning, they are close to a certain extent. Goku is strong enough to make him use the majority of his power.

Grade 3 Trunks>Cell is clearly stated by Cell. The opposite stance requires so many mental gymnastics that it's clear that bias is at play there.

That is immediately contradicted by Buff Cell > Trunks. It's clearly a form that augments his power, Trunks even says Cell's making the same mistake he did and focusing too much on power when he uses it against Gohan.

Also, the fear on Trunks' face when Cell uses the buff form clearly shows that Cell is stronger than him, why would he be so afraid of someone who is still inferior in terms of power? Cell already explained that he was much faster, so why does Trunks only show fear when Cell displays this form? And why would Cell demonstrate the form if it's weaker than Trunks?



Furthermore, why wouldn't Vegeta use Grade 3 to kill Cell while he was beam struggling with Gohan? Speed wouldn't be an issue since Cell couldn't move.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Cell also told Goku this:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.”
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.”

So does this mean Goku's close to being Cell's equal? Of course not. But according to you it's totally clear cut that Cell and Goku are on the same level, right?

Relatively speaking by Cells own subjective reasoning, they are close to a certain extent. Goku is strong enough to make him use the majority of his power.

Grade 3 Trunks>Cell is clearly stated by Cell. The opposite stance requires so many mental gymnastics that it's clear that bias is at play there.

That is immediately contradicted by Buff Cell > Trunks. It's clearly a form that augments his power, Trunks even says Cell's making the same mistake he did and focusing too much on power when he uses it against Gohan.

Also, the fear on Trunks' face when Cell uses the buff form clearly shows that Cell is stronger than him, why would he be so afraid of someone who is still inferior in terms of power? And why would Cell demonstrate the form if it's weaker than Trunks?



Furthermore, why wouldn't Vegeta use Grade 3 to kill Cell while he was beam struggling with Gohan? Speed wouldn't be an issue since Cell couldn't move.

As I said before, mental gymnastics.
You're coming up with all of these weird justifications for ignoring Cell's statement, but the statement stands no matter how many loopholes you try to find. Cell buffed up to show Trunks that the power granted by Grade 3 was useless.

Even if Buff Cell was stronger than Grade 3 Trunks, it doesn't matter since he doesn't consider going buff his true power as he said himself when he powered up against Gohan. The form is useless, so he isn't taking it into account.

[Son_Gohan]

No, Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him and that's really all it boils down to. You don't get to cherrypick statements. You have to reconcile the fact that Trunks is stronger than Cell with Krillin's statement. Period. You don't have another option.

If you're claiming that Goku is stronger than Trunks in Grade 3, then it is by default wrong since Cell stated that Trunks surpassed him, yet Goku was much weaker than Cell.
At that point in the story, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power and no fighter recognizes inflating their muscles with ki as their true power, hence why Cell doesn't go Buff when he states that he will show Gohan his true power.

Krillin's statement applies to the current Z-fighters. At that point, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power, so Krillin's statement is logically correct even if it doesn't take into account Grade 3, interpretations aside.

Now both statements are true

-Trunks is stronger than Cell.
-Goku outstrips everyone.

There's no need to, since Krillin's statement doesn't really contradict Cell's, if you want to get specific. In the original Japanese line, Cell doesn't explicitly use the term 'true power' or even a term for 'power' at all; he simply uses the inflected verb 超えている/koete iru; indicating that Trunks surpasses him. But when understood through context that he's in a suppressed state, there's no necessity to interpret it as Trunks surpassing his full power.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him and that's really all it boils down to. You don't get to cherrypick statements. You have to reconcile the fact that Trunks is stronger than Cell with Krillin's statement. Period. You don't have another option.

If you're claiming that Goku is stronger than Trunks in Grade 3, then it is by default wrong since Cell stated that Trunks surpassed him, yet Goku was much weaker than Cell.
At that point in the story, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power and no fighter recognizes inflating their muscles with ki as their true power, hence why Cell doesn't go Buff when he states that he will show Gohan his true power.

Krillin's statement applies to the current Z-fighters. At that point, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power, so Krillin's statement is logically correct even if it doesn't take into account Grade 3, interpretations aside.

Now both statements are true

-Trunks is stronger than Cell.
-Goku outstrips everyone.

There's no need to, since Krillin's statement doesn't really contradict Cell's, if you want to get specific. In the original Japanese line, Cell doesn't explicitly use the term 'true power' or even a term for 'power' at all; he simply uses the inflected verb 超えている/koete iru; indicating that Trunks surpasses him. But when understood through context that he's in a suppressed state, there's no necessity to interpret it as Trunks surpassing his full power.

If Trunks is weaker than Cell, then he didn't surpass him. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Cell being suppressed is irrelevant since he doesn't need to power up to full to assess whether someone surpassed him.
He doesn't need to say "true power". Him saying that he has been surpassed says the exact same thing.

[TheUltimateNinja]

As I said before, mental gymnastics.
You're coming up with all of these weird justifications for ignoring Cell's statement, but the statement stands no matter how many loopholes you try to find. Cell buffed up to show Trunks that the power granted by Grade 3 was useless.

Even if Buff Cell was stronger than Grade 3 Trunks, it doesn't matter since he doesn't consider going buff his true power as he said himself when he powered up against Gohan. The form is useless, so he isn't taking it into account.

Why would he do that if he still ends up weaker than Trunks? He already explained that the reason Trunks was losing was because of his lack of speed, showing a form that's weaker than his Grade 3 after that would be pointless.

Karin did take that form into account and still told Goku he could only guess at what Cell's true capabilities are. This means that Cell's true power is at least far greater than what he displayed against Trunks.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Why would he do that if he still ends up weaker than Trunks? He already explained that the reason Trunks was losing was because of his lack of speed, showing a form that's weaker than his Grade 3 after that would be pointless.

Karin did take that form into account and still told Goku he could only guess at what Cell's true capabilities are. This means that Cell's true power is at least far greater than what he displayed against Trunks.

You're arguing an irrelevant point. All that matters here is that Trunks is stronger than Cell as stated by Cell himself. Even if Cell was stronger than Trunks in buff form, he doesn't consider that part of his power.

Cell didn't show his true power. All he did was bulk up his muscles. That isn't representative of his true capabilities no matter how strong he was in that form and this is stated by Cell himself when he says that the form is useless regardless of it's power. This is getting beyond ridiculous.
I don't know where you got the idea that Karin thinks that Cell's buff form has anything to do with his true power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Why would he do that if he still ends up weaker than Trunks? He already explained that the reason Trunks was losing was because of his lack of speed, showing a form that's weaker than his Grade 3 after that would be pointless.

Karin did take that form into account and still told Goku he could only guess at what Cell's true capabilities are. This means that Cell's true power is at least far greater than what he displayed against Trunks.

You're arguing an irrelevant point. All that matters here is that Trunks is stronger than Cell as stated by Cell himself. Even if Cell was stronger than Trunks in buff form, he doesn't consider that part of his power.

Cell didn't show his true power. All he did was bulk up his muscles. That isn't representative of his true capabilities no matter how strong he was in that form and this is stated by Cell himself when he says that the form is useless regardless of it's power. This is getting beyond ridiculous.
I don't know where you got the idea that Karin thinks that Cell's buff form has anything to do with his true power.

Cell also states that he never thought someone stronger than him could exist when he fights Gohan.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Cell also states that he never thought someone stronger than him could exist when he fights Gohan.

According to you that wouldn't be the case since Cell could just go buff and be stronger than anyone that surpassed him, but expanding your muscles is a useless way of increasing your power as Cell said himself.

Trunks>Cell as Cell stated himself, but Trunks' way of powering up made it useless. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Cell also states that he never thought someone stronger than him could exist when he fights Gohan.

According to you that wouldn't be the case since Cell could just go buff and be stronger than anyone that surpassed him, but expanding your muscles is a useless way of increasing your power as Cell said himself.

Trunks>Cell as Cell stated himself, but Trunks' way of powering up made it useless. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

No, according to me even buffing up wouldn't put Cell on Gohan's level, in much the same way that even buffing up wouldn't help Trunks. I've no clue where you got that strawman.

Nobody besides Gohan > Cell, as stated by Cell himself.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Cell also states that he never thought someone stronger than him could exist when he fights Gohan.

According to you that wouldn't be the case since Cell could just go buff and be stronger than anyone that surpassed him, but expanding your muscles is a useless way of increasing your power as Cell said himself.

Trunks>Cell as Cell stated himself, but Trunks' way of powering up made it useless. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

No, according to me even buffing up wouldn't put Cell on Gohan's level, in much the same way that even buffing up wouldn't help Trunks. I've no clue where you got that strawman.

Nobody besides Gohan > Cell, as stated by Cell himself.

Cell didn't say that and it doesn't contradict Trunks surpassing him in raw power.
According to what you're saying, Cell doesn't expect anyone to be stronger than him, no matter the degree that he was surpassed. If someone was 1 percent stronger than him, according to your logic he could just go buff and surpass them.

Trunks>Cell as Cell stated himself but his power is useless. Your argument is beyond desperate at this point.

[Son_Gohan]

If Trunks is weaker than Cell, then he didn't surpass him. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Cell being suppressed is irrelevant since he doesn't need to power up to full to assess whether someone surpassed him.
He doesn't need to say "true power". Him saying that he has been surpassed says the exact same thing.

'You surpass me [as I am now]'. If you're not reading the material straight from the original source, then you haven't truly understood it's full meaning through context that gets lost in translation anyway. You're just arguing from a perspective of your own.

If we were to apply your logic to this line in the Buu arc, for example...

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

It wouldn't work, despite how clear Goku is on the matter, it's a complete contradiction to what occurs later. Not only does he boast the opposite but Goku's SSJ3 is far beyond Vegeta's true strength rather than there being "no gap". So simply isolating a single statement to define how it plays out in the whole story is inherently flawed; character's can be lying, wrong, retconned, and therefore a necessity arises to look at it from a big picture to evaluate the truth of something.

[dbgtFO]

Besides before taking on a fully buffed Trunks, Cell told Trunks this:

Chapter: 386 (DBZ 192), P13.4-6, P14.1-2
Context: after Trunks lead Cell away from Vegeta so Kuririn could move him.
Cell: “Can you finally fight freely? Now that Vegeta’s safe?”
Trunks: “! I didn’t expect you to knowingly let him go.”
Cell: “Naturally. I'm no longer interested in him. [My interest] is in your true power. This will be fun. The time has come for me to know the strength of my perfect form.”

So Cell didn't actually know his own strength, strengthening the fact, he only compared Trunks' power with the power he was currently using and also showing us why he thought he could take on SS2 Gohan, despite the extreme power gap.

[TheUltimateNinja]

According to you that wouldn't be the case since Cell could just go buff and be stronger than anyone that surpassed him, but expanding your muscles is a useless way of increasing your power as Cell said himself.

Trunks>Cell as Cell stated himself, but Trunks' way of powering up made it useless. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

No, according to me even buffing up wouldn't put Cell on Gohan's level, in much the same way that even buffing up wouldn't help Trunks. I've no clue where you got that strawman.

Nobody besides Gohan > Cell, as stated by Cell himself.

Cell didn't say that and it doesn't contradict Trunks surpassing him in raw power.
According to what you're saying, Cell doesn't expect anyone to be stronger than him, no matter the degree that he was surpassed. If someone was 1 percent stronger than him, according to your logic he could just go buff and surpass them.

Trunks>Cell as Cell stated himself but his power is useless. Your argument is beyond desperate at this point.

What's unclear about this statement?

Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”

According to your logic wouldn't that be the exact same as him facing Trunks? He's inferior in terms of power but can settle the fight through other means.

That statement clearly shows that nobody besides Gohan has surpassed Cell.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

'You surpass me [as I am now]'. If you're not reading the material straight from the original source, then you haven't truly understood it's full meaning through context that gets lost in translation anyway. You're just arguing from a perspective of your own.

If we were to apply your logic to this line in the Buu arc, for example...

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

It wouldn't work, despite how clear Goku is on the matter, it's a complete contradiction to what occurs later. Not only does he boast the opposite but Goku's SSJ3 is far beyond Vegeta's true strength rather than there being "no gap". So simply isolating a single statement to define how it plays out in the whole story is inherently flawed; character's can be lying, wrong, retconned, and therefore a necessity arises to look at it from a big picture to evaluate the truth of something.

Goku lied while Cell isn't shown or stated to be lying.
We already know the context of the entire fight. Trunks surpassed Cell, but it was useless since he couldn't maintain equality in speed. If Trunks maintained equality in speed, he would've beaten Cell. There is no indication from Cell that he lied to Trunks.

What's unclear about this statement?

Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”

According to your logic wouldn't that be the exact same as him facing Trunks? He's inferior in terms of power but can settle the fight through other means.

That statement clearly shows that nobody besides Gohan has surpassed Cell.

Clearly not, since Cell himself states that Trunks surpassed him in brute strength. What's unclear about Cell bluntly stating that Trunks surpassed him? Nothing, but you're apparently not comprehending it.

Gohan surpassed Cell in everything power related, while Trunks' power only allowed him to surpass Cell in brute strength.

[dragonball0900]

Cell didn't say that and it doesn't contradict Trunks surpassing him in raw power.
According to what you're saying, Cell doesn't expect anyone to be stronger than him, no matter the degree that he was surpassed. If someone was 1 percent stronger than him, according to your logic he could just go buff and surpass them.

Trunks>Cell as Cell stated himself but his power is useless. Your argument is beyond desperate at this point.

You are really forgetting that Cell powered up against Goku. The power he used to fight Vegeta and Trunks is not the same as the power used to fight Goku. Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than Cell but only in his suppressed state.

And again, Trunks sensed 50% Goku, and that was stated to be the biggest ki at the moment, that means that it surpassed Grade 3 Trunks too in strenght.

[Son_Gohan]

Goku lied while Cell isn't shown or stated to be lying.
We already know the context of the entire fight. Trunks surpassed Cell, but it was useless since he couldn't maintain equality in speed. If Trunks maintained equality in speed, he would've beaten Cell. There is no indication from Cell that he lied to Trunks.

It is not evident that Cell was speaking in terms of his true power when he made the statement or even later on. Since as dbgtFO points out, Cell didn't know himself exactly what his full power was at the time to even make such a claim. For there to be a lie, the statement would have to assert the idea to begin with; it merely stems from your own interpretation.

[TheUltimateNinja]

What's unclear about this statement?

Cell: “Unbelievable..! To think that someone like this could exist in this world…I’m completely losing in terms of power…But a battle’s outcome is a different matter…”

According to your logic wouldn't that be the exact same as him facing Trunks? He's inferior in terms of power but can settle the fight through other means.

That statement clearly shows that nobody besides Gohan has surpassed Cell.

Clearly not, since Cell himself states that Trunks surpassed him in brute strength. What's unclear about Cell bluntly stating that Trunks surpassed him? Nothing, but you're apparently not comprehending it.

Gohan surpassed Cell in everything power related, while Trunks' power only allowed him to surpass Cell in brute strength.

The Trunks Special anime comic says SSJ2, then Grade 5, was the strongest transformation. This means Grade 3 can't be any stronger than SSJ2.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It is not evident that Cell was speaking in terms of his true power when he made the statement or even later on. Since as dbgtFO points out, Cell didn't know himself exactly what his full power was at the time to even make such a claim. For there to be a lie, the statement would have to assert the idea to begin with; it merely stems from your own interpretation.

You're adding layers to his statement. Cell stated that Trunks surpassed him. That is as logically conclusive as Cell saying "true power" interpretations aside. He didn't say that Trunks was stronger than a specific level of power that he was using. Cell knew the actual ki amount that he possessed, hence why he made the comparison between himself and Trunks. He didn't yet know what he could do with the power he possessed.

The Trunks Special anime comic says SSJ2, then Grade 5, was the strongest transformation. This means Grade 3 can't be any stronger than SSJ2.

Other sources clarify the Grade 3 multiplier as 10x Grade 2 and Trunks powers up from SSJ2 to Grade 3 in Super, hence the anime comic simply point to SSJ2 being a stronger form overall, not in brute strength. That wraps up everything, this discussion is over.

[dragonball0900]

Other sources clarify the Grade 3 multiplier as 10x Grade 2 and Trunks powers up from SSJ2 to Grade 3 in Super, hence the anime comic simply point to SSJ2 being a stronger form overall, not in brute strength. That wraps up everything, this discussion is over.

That source of the transformation being 10x stronger is not that official, it doesn't make sense. I can probably agree with you that the form is stronger than SSJ2, but it's not that big of an increase to be a 10 times stronger transformation, no way. I already explained my reasons before.

[cheddarsword]

is it just me or does this look like a super saiyan pissing contest?

maybe it's just me...