Super has the right idea, but it doesn't work at this point: strategy's place in battle

[Doctor.]

Super has been emphasizing tactics, strategy, sneak attacks, teamwork, unique abilities and so on in favor of raw power. Now, I find this commendable. Toei's writers, Toriyama, Toyotaro or whoever decides to implement these aspects in the stories they write is doing a fantastic thing; raw power being the only deciding factor in a fight limits the series way too much.

The problem is... it doesn't work at this point. The series has gone for far too long proving that raw strength is the only win that will eventually win you a fight (and it's not even a Z thing, contrary to popular belief, DB displayed the same mentality countless times too). Even if you get some sneak attacks in, it's still pretty much useless in the face of overwhelming strength. Even if you fight as a group, it's useless. The series has strutted this mentality that raw power is the most important thing, above everything else, that deviating from it and doing the exact opposite now just seems unbelievable and inconsistent with what was previously shown.

And the fanbase seems divided. You've got one side who thinks this is great and couldn't care less about powerlevel debates as long as characters can get to do cool stuff. And you've got the other side, who's so completely blinded by numbers that they can't accept anything other than their meticulously calculated outcome. Both sides are looking at things without understanding the other side, but I really can't say one is more correct than the other.

Consistency and variety are both needed in a series and it seems that you can't have both. Which one's more important to you?

[kinisking]

The problem here is that they could be executing it much better. Just give these characters powerups already. Even if it's a bullshit one, people would get over it eventually. But I don't think they'll ever get over them consistently trashing the power scale.

[Doctor.]

The problem here is that they could be executing it much better. Just give these characters powerups already. Even if it's a bullshit one, people would get over it eventually. But I don't think they'll ever get over them consistently trashing the power scale.

That's just doing what the series has done right up to this point: give them power-ups and fuck everything else; only raw power matters.

[Ki Breaker]

but I really can't say one is more correct than the other.

I can, it's a show for entertainment, if it makes sense great if it dosen't watch them do cool stuff and be entertained..
As long as it's not trunks spirit sword level garbage it's not worth getting your panties in a bunch

[Big Black Sayian]

It's never too late to make fights interesting. I appreciate what this arc is trying to do.

[namekiansaiyan]

Give them all powerups and everything will be good for future fights.

[dragonballgeek]

but I really can't say one is more correct than the other.

I can, it's a show for entertainment, if it makes sense great if it dosen't watch them do cool stuff and be entertained..
As long as it's not trunks spirit sword level garbage it's not worth getting your panties in a bunch

Depends how you look at it, but this tactic stuff could be just as bad.

he was right when he said that tactics at some point don't matter. That they were so powerful that all their attacks were useless.

This may be silly but this is what I told myself as a kid. Since beings like Cell, Frieza, Androids aren't human their skin is obviously harder than everyone elses. Which is why krillins destructo disk didn't work on Cell anymore or Trunks sword was shattered by 18 because she was made of metal.

I guess if we are reaching for explanations we can just say that human/saiyan skin, regardless of how strong you are is still durable. So no Goku wouldn't be able to take those destructo disks.


By no means am I opposed to bringing up Tien Roshi and Krillin power wise. There just needs to be a reasonable explanation behind it. The tactic part would work if there wasn't such a giant gap in power between fighters. If they closed the power gap in a reasonable manner, I'm pretty sure both sides of the debate would be happy. Having a weight room has never really been a dragon ball approach. And I doubt Krillin had enough weight plates to make him struggle.

[kinisking]

The problem here is that they could be executing it much better. Just give these characters powerups already. Even if it's a bullshit one, people would get over it eventually. But I don't think they'll ever get over them consistently trashing the power scale.

That's just doing what the series has done right up to this point: give them power-ups and fuck everything else; only raw power matters.

Not necessarily. With powerups, their use of tactics to win would make more sense than now. Right now, no type of tactics should put them anywhere near Goku and Vegeta.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The series has never been in this position though before, it isn't unbelievable or inconsistent at all, this isn't a generic tournament. We have been limited by rules such as no killing, no weapons, you have to physically chuck your opponent out so KO'ing them is no good etc, it is one match, 80 contestants, this has never happened. I can understand your point if this was your typical life and death battle with singular villain and they're pushing this but it isn't.

[dragonballgeek]

The problem here is that they could be executing it much better. Just give these characters powerups already. Even if it's a bullshit one, people would get over it eventually. But I don't think they'll ever get over them consistently trashing the power scale.

That's just doing what the series has done right up to this point: give them power-ups and fuck everything else; only raw power matters.

Not necessarily. With powerups, their use of tactics to win would make more sense than now. Right now, no type of tactics should put them anywhere near Goku and Vegeta.

Exactly. Their only real option to not cause so much controversy is to bring Krillin and the rest of the crew up to par with everyone else. They're just so far behind that tactics should be useless.

Every time the fighters peaked in Z, they received training from Kami or King Kai to get stronger. It would not be too hard for Whis to take a break from training Goku And vegeta to focus on the stragglers. This seems like a blown opportunity to fix their inconsistencies and get everything squared away.

[dbs fanboy]

For me it depends, there are certain situations where i can look past the inconsistences, like in #66, i wasn't so bothered because i liked the symbolism and the meaning behind it's ending, #57 in the other way was actually worse, Trunks only survived that Kamehameha because plot armor.

It depends on the situation, and on what the autor/writer was intending with that said scene.

[LightBing]

Strategy and teamwork always had a place in Dragon Ball, Vegeta against everybody else is the best example that can be given. That's not to say that Super isn't trying to bend the rules, I just had to preface the idea.

Does it work to the degree they are modifying it? The tournament will give final say. The last episode needed a combination of suspension of disbelief and understanding Goku's intention. Like couldn't Goku just blitz Kuririn after going Super Saiyan? Yeah, but he was expectant to what Kuririn could do. Would Kuririn really hold SSJB Goku's Kamehameha for so long? No, suspension of disbelief is needed to make it work.

They focused on the tournament rules, mainly the killing and ring out aspects. Kuririn didn't damage neither Goku or Gohan. The way they are explaining it works for me(for the most part) logically within the series.
It now depends on how far they go: will we have Kame-Sennin surviving punches from God tiers? Stuff like that goes too far. Will he help Goku by being a nuisance to a God Tier character, while failing to deal any damage and providing tactics? Then it works for me, even within the original manga logic.

[Asura]

Strategy and teamwork always had a place in Dragon Ball, Vegeta against everybody else is the best example that can be given.

How do you figure that? There wasn't much strategy or teamwork in that fight at all. By the time Gohan, Krillin (and Yajirobe) arrived, Goku was already down for the count. Yajirobe was able to cut off his tail, but there was no teamwork or discussed strategy involved in that, he just decided to be courageous for once. After that, it's mostly just a 1v1 between Gohan and Vegeta until Krillin launches the spirit bomb. I guess Gohan bouncing the bomb back can be considered teamwork? After that though it was just blind luck that Gohan's tail came back, and everyone was barely able to survive as a result. There was no strategy though, and the only plans were "cut off his tail" and "throw this giant ball of energy at him"

[Doctor.]

Strategy and teamwork always had a place in Dragon Ball, Vegeta against everybody else is the best example that can be given.

It wasn't a Vegeta vs everyone. It was Vegeta vs Goku, then an incredibly tired and hurt Vegeta vs everyone.

[LightBing]

Strategy and teamwork always had a place in Dragon Ball, Vegeta against everybody else is the best example that can be given.

How do you figure that? There wasn't much strategy or teamwork in that fight at all. By the time Gohan, Krillin (and Yajirobe) arrived, Goku was already down for the count. Yajirobe was able to cut off his tail, but there was no teamwork or discussed strategy involved in that, he just decided to be courageous for once. After that, it's mostly just a 1v1 between Gohan and Vegeta until Krillin launches the spirit bomb. I guess Gohan bouncing the bomb back can be considered teamwork? After that though it was just blind luck that Gohan's tail came back, and everyone was barely able to survive as a result. There was no strategy though, and the only plans were "cut off his tail" and "throw this giant ball of energy at him"

You don't have to discuss it for it to be teamwork. Kuririn and Gohan distracted Vegeta allowing Yajirobe to cut his tail, that's a team effort even if it wasn't planed. Kuririn having the skill to use the Genki Dama and Gohan distracting Vegeta for the attack to hit is teamwork.
You can reduce it to "cut off his tail and throw this giant ball of energy at him", it still doesn't take away from the fact that it worked and defeated a stronger opponent. It's exactly the same thing that's being preached in Super.
How complex it is has no bearing in it.

It wasn't a Vegeta vs everyone. It was Vegeta vs Goku, then an incredibly tired and hurt Vegeta vs everyone.

Even hurt Vegeta was stronger than everything else. So what's your point? I didn't deny Goku did the heavy lifting, however alone he would have lost. With help their combined efforts defeated Vegeta. It's as straightforward as that.

[Asura]

Strategy and teamwork always had a place in Dragon Ball, Vegeta against everybody else is the best example that can be given.

How do you figure that? There wasn't much strategy or teamwork in that fight at all. By the time Gohan, Krillin (and Yajirobe) arrived, Goku was already down for the count. Yajirobe was able to cut off his tail, but there was no teamwork or discussed strategy involved in that, he just decided to be courageous for once. After that, it's mostly just a 1v1 between Gohan and Vegeta until Krillin launches the spirit bomb. I guess Gohan bouncing the bomb back can be considered teamwork? After that though it was just blind luck that Gohan's tail came back, and everyone was barely able to survive as a result. There was no strategy though, and the only plans were "cut off his tail" and "throw this giant ball of energy at him"

You don't have to discuss it for it to be teamwork. Kuririn and Gohan distracted Vegeta allowing Yajirobe to cut his tail, that's a team effort even if it wasn't planed. Kuririn having the skill to use the Genki Dama and Gohan distracting Vegeta for the attack to hit is teamwork.
You can reduce it to "cut off his tail and throw this giant ball of energy at him", it still doesn't take away from the fact that it worked and defeated a stronger opponent. It's exactly the same thing that's being preached in Super.
How complex it is has no bearing in it.

It wasn't a Vegeta vs everyone. It was Vegeta vs Goku, then an incredibly tired and hurt Vegeta vs everyone.

Even hurt Vegeta was stronger than everything else. So what's your point? I didn't deny Goku did the heavy lifting, however alone he would have lost. With help their combined efforts defeated Vegeta. It's as straightforward as that.

I mean, if what you consider to be the #1 example of teamwork in DBZ boils down to "go be a distraction while I charge this thing", then that is a pretty piss poor example of teamwork.

Now Goten & Trunks as the Mighty Mask vs #18, that is definitely teamwork.

[LightBing]

I mean, if what you consider to be the #1 example of teamwork in DBZ boils down to "go be a distraction while I charge this thing", then that is a pretty piss poor example of teamwork.

Now Goten & Trunks as the Mighty Mask vs #18, that is definitely teamwork.

Well, yeah. That's the core of it. Piccolo and Goku against Raditz is the same type of teamwork. That's because power is King, if you're weaker then you distract or use a powerful attack. More interesting teamwork rises when the opponents are in the same relative level or there's an exploitable weakness.

Super is going for this. #18 saving Kuririn shows this. The weaker characters will only defeat people due to techniques or ring out. If this was life or death it would be like Vegeta vs Earth and Goku, Piccolo and Gohan vs Raditz.

[dbgtFO]

It is of course completely contrived, but that's par for the course in virtually any series.
For this to work against much stronger opponents, the opponent has to be a moron, whose overconfidence becomes their downfall, when up against an inferior opponent.

Fact of the matter is, base Gohan and base Goku should have speedblitzed Krillin(Goku even has teleportation up his sleeve!). There simply is no answer to someone, who moves so fast you literally can't see them before you're lying on the floor, defeated with one hit.
Super already showed this was the case, when SS Cabba got one shotted by Vegeta Blue and even an incredibly nervous, borderline PTSD Krillin, easily avoided all the blows of Freeza's soldiers, before pulling himself together and beating them easily.
As we see back in Z, a proper fighter who is aware of his opponents can keep himself from being caught off-guard:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
That is a ring out, right there!

[Jinzoningen MULE]

You've got one side who thinks this is great and couldn't care less about power level debates as long as characters can get to do cool stuff.

That's me. Yeah, I really don't care who's canonically stronger. That's not to say that I don't understand those who want more consistency, but we're way passed the point that it could be implemented in an interesting way.

[Hirovoid]

The problem here is that they could be executing it much better. Just give these characters powerups already. Even if it's a bullshit one, people would get over it eventually. But I don't think they'll ever get over them consistently trashing the power scale.

That's just doing what the series has done right up to this point: give them power-ups and fuck everything else; only raw power matters.

Not necessarily. With powerups, their use of tactics to win would make more sense than now. Right now, no type of tactics should put them anywhere near Goku and Vegeta.

Agreed. The show would be much better if they went on a two-episode journey to planet Zuputo to find the divine alien recluse who'll give them the super ultra divine seeds they can use to power them up to SSG levels.