Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

[Doctor.]

It's still somehow less hated than GT, the Boo arc or even Episode of Bardock which blows my mind when it suffers from all their problems.

It was many more high points than any of those 3, though.

[sintzu]

A mentality I find extremely moronic when every superhero ever has been done infinitely better down the line by people besides their original creators but you don't hear anyone bitching and moaning that Avengers is a piece of shit because it wasn't written by Stan Lee now do you?

I think the reason for this is because Superheroes are known to be thrown around from writer to writer while manga is known to be the work of one person.

Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit.

You're right, it would still have defenders but nowhere near as many as it does now. I'll go as far as to say that fans would hate it before even watching it just because his name wasn't on it.

[Boo Machine]

Why doesn't anyone crap on Super? Plenty of people crap on it.

Nowhere near the ferver you're gonna get that you do with GT though. Even though Super is the embodiment with EVERYTHING wrong with Dragon Ball that the Freeza fight started and Toriyama ran into the ground.

Maybe so but why does one thing need the equal amount of hate of the other? There are just more people who enjoy series A than Series B. That's not so strange is it?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Are....are you kidding me?

I could say the same, why are people so quick to criticise Super yet seemingly ignore when something similar happened in DB/Z? People want to rationalise Super because maybe they just want to, I'm sorry but saying "because they're afraid that if they criticize it, they might have another GT on their hands." is incredibly pretentious with absolutely zero basis. If someone wants to criticise Super then they will. This is all subjective, just because someone has criticism does NOT mean it has to be shared!

I have never seen a show as long as Super been complained about and fans still waste their time watching something they dislike, why is that?

I am sorry but if you hate Super and continue to watch then you do not have the right to suddenly complain "why are people defending Super". I see folks threaten to quit Super all the time, don't and then have the freaking cheek to moan about when people want to defend certain plot points, I am sorry but that is where I draw the fucking line, I do not usually swear but that is how mad this thread has gotten me.

[Asura]

In this series power levels matter so little and I still don't know why there is so much attention on it.

Because people want consistency. I guarantee you that the majority of the power level people you stereotype into being exact formula number nerds are actually just people who want a consistent basis for who is stronger than who. Otherwise we just have what you implied, which is "oh, that sure did look cool! It didn't make much sense in terms of power consistency, but it sure was cool!"

It's just so weird to me that there are so many people who don't care about consistency. The writing could be done by a toddler and you'd still defend it because you enjoy the flashing images on the screen because it looks cool. And hey, there are people like that, who really just want to see cool things happen and cool fights regardless of whether or not they "make sense" in the DBverse, but I don't understand that.

Except we do have consistency about who is stronger than who. In the past we had trunks landing some hits on black and Zamasu. Cool but it's clear who is stronger because he lost. This past episode had Krillin beam clashing Goku. We know Goku is stronger because Krillin was losing and had to be saved. You say people just want a consistent basis for who is stronger than who but we have that. It's doesn't sound like people just want to know who is stronger but instead want hard science and numbers and have it fit into a little box in their heads because for some reason making a few leaps in logic in a series that throws out logic from time to time to suit the plot is a huge no no.

It seems like you're conveniently ignoring the gigantic elephant in the room that is so huge the fanbase divided into 2 under its weight, which was the Trunks defeating Merged Zamasu nonsense. Not only that, but another example. Trunks is somehow able to fight both Zamasu & SSR Black for an entire day by himself. Just because he loses in the end doesn't somehow justify the act that was taking place. Goku was also somehow magically able to overtake Merged Zamasu, yet Vegeta & Trunks could not, despite Goku surely not being more powerful than both Trunks & Vegeta combined.

We definitely do not have any kind of consistent basis. The Future Trunks arc was anything but consistent. It was an absolute mess in the category of consistency. What you define as consistency is insanely broad and doesn't get anyone anywhere. Goku beats Krillin, Goku is stronger. We all knew that, we all continue to know that. People who are annoyed at this latest episode though want to know how their strength difference has apparently been so narrowed that even with Goku holding back, Krillin can still somehow put up a decent struggle against SSB. They want to know, how can SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta get slaughtered by Black & Zamasu, yet Trunks can tank them both at the same time for an entire day. Does that mean Trunks is stronger than Goku & Vegeta? Who the hell knows!

I understand if people want to just enjoy the show, and enjoy things that make no sense because they fit the plot, or have good emotional impact, or whatever. I get it, I understand it, and I totally grasp it in the case of Krillin vs Goku. But for those same people to sit there and imply that the show is doing a great job at being consistent, and all of the painfully obvious "what the fuck, how is that possible?" moments in the show can all be explained under the premise of "it's consistent, just don't think about it or else we'll berate you for wanting sensical writing" is just nonsense.

Like, I really have no problem with people who don't care about power levels and etc. and are happy with doing away for them in exchange for a good plot, re-introduction of old, underpowered characters, etc. - I totally get it, I even agree with a lot of it. Just don't imply that the show is still being consistent and pretending like nothing's changed.

Are....are you kidding me?

I could say the same, why are people so quick to criticise Super yet seemingly ignore when something similar happened in DB/Z? People want to rationalise Super because maybe they just want to, I'm sorry but saying "because they're afraid that if they criticize it, they might have another GT on their hands." is incredibly pretentious with absolutely zero basis. If someone wants to criticise Super then they will. This is all subjective, just because someone has criticism does NOT mean it has to be shared!

I have never seen a show as long as Super been complained about and fans still waste their time watching something they dislike, why is that?

I am sorry but if you hate Super and continue to watch then you do not have the right to suddenly complain "why are people defending Super". I see folks threaten to quit Super all the time, don't and then have the freaking cheek to moan about when people want to defend certain plot points, I am sorry but that is where I draw the fucking line, I do not usually swear but that is how mad this thread has gotten me.

Perhaps you should calm down and re-read what has been said. I never once claimed I hated Super, and I've no idea where you got that from. Nor did I ever threaten to "quit" Super. I also have no idea as to what you're referring to in regards to criticizing Super for something Z did.

[ekrolo2]

Maybe so but why does one thing need the equal amount of hate of the other? There are just more people who enjoy series A than Series B. That's not so strange is it?

I find it very strange that the latest thing that has all the problems of the before stuff is somehow less crap than the before stuff because of some arbitrary reasons.

I think the reason for this is because Superheroes are known to be thrown around from writer to writer while manga is known to be the work of one person.

It's not just superheroes, though. Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, Transformers, TMNT, and a whole slew of other things have had different iterations with different writers and those don't have this built in OG creator favoritism. Hell, we've had 4 different versions of Sherlock Holmes in the span of a decade each with their own gimmick. One where he's essentially a superhero (Downey's), old as hell (McKellen), and two modern ones with Cumberbatches and Elementary.

It's still somehow less hated than GT, the Boo arc or even Episode of Bardock which blows my mind when it suffers from all their problems.

It was many more high points than any of those 3, though.

I mean, it has cool moments the same way the Cell arc does with the Final Flash, Instant Kamehameha but it's the same problem around them: cool stuff in badly constructed stories.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Perhaps you should calm down and re-read what has been said. I never once claimed I hated Super, and I've no idea where you got that from. Nor did I ever threaten to "quit" Super. I also have no idea as to what you're referring to in regards to criticizing Super for something Z did.

I wasn't specifically talking about you in that paragraph hence the word "folks", people replying in this very thread have done that is why I brought it up.

And for eg, people complained about Ikari came out of nowhere yet were okay when Trunks showed up in Z with SS or even better Goku getting super angry and suddenly turning Blonde with spikey hair and green eyes because that certainly didn't come out of nowhere!

[Asura]

I wasn't specifically talking about you in that paragraph hence the word "folks", people replying in this very thread have done that is why I brought it up.

And for eg, people complained about Ikari came out of nowhere yet were okay when Trunks showed up in Z with SS or even better Goku getting super angry and suddenly turning Blonde with spikey hair and green eyes because that certainly didn't come out of nowhere!

Trunks was an entirely new character introduced at the time in Z. We know how he went Super Saiyan, we know why he went Super Saiyan. We quickly learn right after who Trunks is, which is that he's Vegeta's son. The manga and the anime both explain this to us. This wasn't an inconsistency, or a surprise that didn't make sense.

In the Goku situation, it didn't come out of nowhere at all. Literally the entire Freeza saga was foreshadowing the Super Saiyan legend. It wasn't inconsistent, it wasn't an ass pull, it was planned and foreshadowed for us.

In comparison you have Super Saiyan Rage/Ikari which still has no explanation, had no foreshadowing, didn't even have a name given to it in the anime, and no one could really deteremine how powerful it was because of how inconsistent Trunks' power was throughout the entire arc that made it rise and fall on a moment's notice to fit the plot.

[Kanassa]

Trunks is somehow able to fight both Zamasu & SSR Black for an entire day by himself.

Thats kind of Trunk's character, surviving against an opposition that is easily more powerful than him.

[Asura]

Trunks is somehow able to fight both Zamasu & SSR Black for an entire day by himself.

Thats kind of Trunk's character, surviving against an opposition that is easily more powerful than him.

Very true. In the case of 17 and 18 though, they could have destroyed him whenever they wanted to, just like they did with Gohan. But they toyed around and played with him.

In comparison, Zamasu & Black had zero reason to let him live. I know for sure in the manga that Black literally says he no longer has any use for Trunks and is going to kill him now that Goku & Vegeta are gone. I maybe remember that happening in the anime as well, but I don't know.

Trunks only survives because his opponent is playing with him every time. We saw it with 17 & 18, we saw it with Cell, and we saw it with Black.

[Boo Machine]

It seems like you're conveniently ignoring the gigantic elephant in the room that is so huge the fanbase divided into 2 under its weight, which was the Trunks defeating Merged Zamasu nonsense. Not only that, but another example. Trunks is somehow able to fight both Zamasu & SSR Black for an entire day by himself. Just because he loses in the end doesn't somehow justify the act that was taking place. Goku was also somehow magically able to overtake Merged Zamasu, yet Vegeta & Trunks could not, despite Goku surely not being more powerful than both Trunks & Vegeta combined.

I'm not ignoring anything. It another one of those moments where "Logic be damned". Though it's also one that's understandable if people don't want to accept it. But a lot of people aren't mad about because the ending was abrupt and shits on trunks, people are mad because power scaling, and I just find that the priorities are a little skewed. Same with Goku overtaking Merged Zamasu. It doesn't make sense sure, but it's not so outlandish that it can't be overlooked. I don't see why the act of Trunks fighting doesn't make sense. New power up. (Bull shit or not) and we don't even know if he fought for an entire day. They cut out, then when we go back to the future Trunks is out cold. He lost. We know who is stronger and the power up didn't help much. What's so confusing about who is stronger than who? Do we need bigger number to crush smaller number in a single blow before we can retain the information? Again. Not trying to justify bullshit, but more trying to understand why "Bullshit" isn't acceptable in any capacity.

We definitely do not have any kind of consistent basis. The Future Trunks arc was anything but consistent. It was an absolute mess in the category of consistency. What you define as consistency is insanely broad and doesn't get anyone anywhere. Goku beats Krillin, Goku is stronger. We all knew that, we all continue to know that. People who are annoyed at this latest episode though want to know how their strength difference has apparently been so narrowed that even with Goku holding back, Krillin can still somehow put up a decent struggle against SSB. They want to know, how can SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta get slaughtered by Black & Zamasu, yet Trunks can tank them both at the same time for an entire day. Does that mean Trunks is stronger than Goku & Vegeta? Who the hell knows!

I don't see why being broad is a bad thing. I thought people just wanted to know who was stronger than who. Well we know. It may be broad but it doesn't make the answer any harder to reach. We know why the power gap narrowed. Plot. Doesn't have the bells and whistles of hard numbers and scaling but it's a fair answer as it's been used not just in dragonball but many other stories as well. And even then the gap isn't even that narrow. It's still plainly obvious. It's just not as wide as people assumed it was and that makes people angry. We do know why Trunks can do that. Because New transformation. Whether someone likes or doesn't like the transformation and how it's achieved is a different matter. The point is that he has it and it helps him stand up to them. And again he still gets his butt kicked and vegeta comes back and does a way better job than he did. So we know who is stronger. Which is apparently all people want to know.

I understand if people want to just enjoy the show, and enjoy things that make no sense because they fit the plot, or have good emotional impact, or whatever. I get it, I understand it, and I totally grasp it in the case of Krillin vs Goku. But for those same people to sit there and imply that the show is doing a great job at being consistent, and all of the painfully obvious "what the fuck, how is that possible?" moments in the show can all be explained under the premise of "it's consistent, just don't think about it or else we'll berate you for wanting sensical writing" is just nonsense.

Fair enough. If it doesn't fit then it doesn't fit. But that doesn't mean that making a few leaps in logic in order to enjoy it is a bad thing nor does it make those people less intellectual like I feel you have been implying. If you're not then I apologize but that's how I read some of your post.

Like, I really have no problem with people who don't care about power levels and etc. and are happy with doing away for them in exchange for a good plot, re-introduction of old, underpowered characters, etc. - I totally get it, I even agree with a lot of it. Just don't imply that the show is still being consistent and pretending like nothing's changed.

Fair enough. But I also feel it's fair to say that we shouldn't pretend that the show or episode should be considered ruined because of a few "Power scaling inconsistencies".

Maybe so but why does one thing need the equal amount of hate of the other? There are just more people who enjoy series A than Series B. That's not so strange is it?

I find it very strange that the latest thing that has all the problems of the before stuff is somehow less crap than the before stuff because of some arbitrary reasons.

Probably because people find more high point in one than the other that they're willing to let some crap slide. Which I think it totally reasonable.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Did anyone ever care about power levels? Maybe it's more that the people who didn't care and the people who did are actually interacting now.

[Hirovoid]

Did anyone ever care about power levels? Maybe it's more that the people who didn't care and the people who did are actually interacting now.

Remember Broly and how he's so awesome because his power level is so high!?

[Kanassa]

Trunks is somehow able to fight both Zamasu & SSR Black for an entire day by himself.

Thats kind of Trunk's character, surviving against an opposition that is easily more powerful than him.

Very true. In the case of 17 and 18 though, they could have destroyed him whenever they wanted to, just like they did with Gohan. But they toyed around and played with him.

They don't really seem to 'play around' with Trunks, only Gohan. By the time Trunks comes in they''re rather annoyed with him, but he continually survives. The point still stands that Trunks over his years against 18 and 17 is experienced in how to avoid and surprise greater opponents... Well, until he actually starts to believe he can beat them. Then he goes and gets his arse kicked and screws up. Which is actually displayed in his fight against Black, as soon as he gets a leg up in the fight and pushes Black back, he gets to confident and thinks he can take out Zamasu by blowing himself up, allowing Black to easily stab him.

[Asura]

Did anyone ever care about power levels?

What kind of question is that?

@BooMachine - It seems like a lot of your answers just boil down to "Well sure it doesn't make sense but it's not that big of a deal to me" - which okay, that's fine. But again, if it's not that big a deal to you (and this isn't just directed at you, but in general to anyone) why do you try and defend it as if it does make sense? Like you're flat out admitting that the examples I brought up don't make sense, while still basically saying "Well, maybe if we leaped really far, it could be consistent." Why stretch? Why reach for the stars to try and prove something that you yourself admit doesn't make sense?

Like I said, I'm fine with people just not caring, but its when (not saying this is you btw) people who don't care who then proceed to try to tell others that it all makes sense and if you don't agree you're just a "insert power level related insult here". It's mindboggling to me. If you don't care about it not making sense, then fine, just don't try and make gigantic leaps in logic to try and prove that it makes sense. If you have to do that, it means that the writing is bad. People should just admit it doesn't make sense and either they don't care, or they do care and they voice their complaints about it (like me) but I just can't for the life of me understand the people who berate others just for wanting a consistent scale of power in the series.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Did anyone ever care about power levels?

What kind of question is that?

Not a particularly confusing one, but not literal either.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that everyone cared about power levels before, but suddenly stopped after Super started. That's just not the case. What I suspect happened is, consciously or not, you changed your interactions after the show started.

[Totamo]

Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.

Considering how much hate the buu saga, battle of gods, resurrection f and dragon Ball minus got, I think that's a weak argument.


Plus toei doesn't exactly have the best record when it comes to this franchise see the many movies and episode of bardock for example


In fact, I can only think of a handful of things in dragon Ball that did not have toriyama's name on it that were good and maybe a handful of things that were bad with his name on it.

The toriyama element does have an effect on some but if something is undeniably good, it won't make much of a difference.. Father of bardock and the trunks special prove that.

Okay, then why doesn't anyone crap on Super which is considerably shittier than almost everything you listed above except Minus? Why is GT the second Holocaust when Super does EVERYTHING wrong like GT did, like the Cell & Boo arcs did, that F and Minus did but Super still gets away with it because "its canon!".

because people like it, dude. Did you ever think that? People actually enjoy this show, yes I know, shocker.Not everyone values in dragon Ball what you value. Trust me, super is generally liked if it wasn't it be killed like GT was. Sorry, if people liking something YOU think is bad offends you.

People don't like GT so they attack it. It did not provide what they wanted and yes some of it is bandwagon but it can be also seen as some of those who like GT do it to simple be different or to bash super. You can't generalize a group of people like that. Especially when a lot of them are kids who don't even know who Toriyama is.

Hell, some adults don't even know who the man is.

My point is, if your argument is that people defend super because toriyama, you are going have to explain why Minus and Resurrection F were hated and the specials weren't.

P.S you can't say anything close to quality related or people didn't know toriyama had something or nothing to do with those works because then your argument dies

[Boo Machine]

@BooMachine - It seems like a lot of your answers just boil down to "Well sure it doesn't make sense but it's not that big of a deal to me" - which okay, that's fine. But again, if it's not that big a deal to you (and this isn't just directed at you, but in general to anyone) why do you try and defend it as if it does make sense? Like you're flat out admitting that the examples I brought up don't make sense, while still basically saying "Well, maybe if we leaped really far, it could be consistent." Why stretch? Why reach for the stars to try and prove something that you yourself admit doesn't make sense?

Like I said, I'm fine with people just not caring, but its when (not saying this is you btw) people who don't care who then proceed to try to tell others that it all makes sense and if you don't agree you're just a "insert power level related insult here". It's mindboggling to me. If you don't care about it not making sense, then fine, just don't try and make gigantic leaps in logic to try and prove that it makes sense. If you have to do that, it means that the writing is bad.

Yeah, that's pretty much most of my answers in a nut shell.

Well, if I had to reach for the stars for the answer of why people do this, I'd have to say that, this is a discussion forum and people want to share their views with the opposing view to try to persuade or understand a certain point of view and why they can or can't find logic in what going on. Who knows maybe someone will say something that makes sense. I've had my mind changed a few times while I've been on here. So that's why I do it. And even if something doesn't make much sense some of those people will try to make sense of it because, like the other point of view, it's comforting to have things make sense. Though I understand that some people can get a bit overzealous.

[Asura]

Did anyone ever care about power levels?

What kind of question is that?

Not a particularly confusing one, but not literal either.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that everyone cared about power levels before, but suddenly stopped after Super started. That's just not the case. What I suspect happened is, consciously or not, you changed your interactions after the show started.

Like I said in my opening post, where was the gigantic fanboy defense force when people were asking how come Base GT Goku was so insanely powerful? I've never actually heard a defense of that, all I've ever heard was agreement of "Yep, doesn't make sense, bad writing."

Yet somehow now that Super exists, issues that are relevant to the Base GT Goku power-scaling issue comes up, and you could build a mile long list of excuses as to how it somehow makes sense.

It's definitely not my interactions that have changed, because like I said you can go look up the Base GT Goku example and see how many people defend it and make excuses for it. A hint: not very many.

[VegettoEX]

I am 100% sick to death of all this "these people" and "those people" and "those fans". Stop generalizing a boogyman to argue against. Of course you're going to win that fight, when you completely fabricate someone out of thin air just to argue down.

Can you actually point to a specific person that's (1) 100% on-board with power scaling being an (the?) essential feature to their fandom, (2) has gone on-record with appropriate negative statements about GT for those specific reasons, and (3) is simultaneously defending Super for these egregious faults while propping up the author as their sole reason?

Or are you just making someone up in your mind? Are you attributing different quotes from different people all to the same imaginary person?

People are complicated creatures. We all like different things for different reasons. Sometimes these reasons change. It can be with age and general maturity, it can be due to exposing oneself to different literature, etc. Sometimes we like things in spite of what we otherwise hold up as valid reasons to otherwise DISLIKE something.

Equally sick of this "bad writing" stuff, especially the "stop lying to yourself" argument. "Bad writing" is entirely subjective. See again: people like different things for different reasons, and have different thresholds for these aspects affecting our enjoyment. It's not "excusing" bad writing; it's having different expectations.