Super has the right idea, but it doesn't work at this point: strategy's place in battle

[Jinzoningen MULE]

...The reason why i (and many other "powerlevel enthousiasts") like the dragon ball series so much, is because it's ultimately a series that's based on power, strength, improvement, evolution! Goku and Vegeta are of course the only full blooded saiyans in town, (hence the only one qualified to join the ranks of the celestials, since they belong to a "warrior race" afterall) who have managed to come across all odds, and managed to evolve themselves to levels beyond even SSJ God. Like i said, Gohan is welcome to join them. if anyone was going to have a chance to join Goku and Vegeta, it would be Gohan for obvious reasons. (His POTENTIAL) as demonstrated on a very young age. While the kids just don't seem to have it in them, (or rather, the writers want to keep Goten and Trunks on the same level as they've always had been, or so it seems)

Powerscaling is one of THE most important factors into keeping it a "consistent" show, especially when it comes to a show like this...

If that were true, the power-scaling enthusiasts wouldn't have to bend over backwards while repeatedly leaping over volcanoes to make their numbers work. If that's what the series was about, you wouldn't have the conundrum that you do right now, where none of the fights make sense to you. At a certain point, the problem just can't be everything else.

[GodVegetto91]

if someone is the best, than he should stay the best imo.

Well with that logic Goku shouldn't surpass anyone. He wasn't always and still isn't the best. It just kind of flies in the face of what Gokus all about don't you think? To be the best? How can he do that if the guy that's the best stays the best? Which I think is odd because you yourself said one of the things this show is based off is Improvement.

Well perhaps i should've been more clear about it i admit. What i actually mean is Goku and Vegeta should stay the best now. (In relation to all the other Z Fighters) And the only people qualified to surpass stronger opponents ofcourse are Goku and Vegeta. Since they are a rapidly evolving species afterall.

[Boo Machine]

if someone is the best, than he should stay the best imo.

Well with that logic Goku shouldn't surpass anyone. He wasn't always and still isn't the best. It just kind of flies in the face of what Gokus all about don't you think? To be the best? How can he do that if the guy that's the best stays the best? Which I think is odd because you yourself said one of the things this show is based off is Improvement.

Well perhaps i should've been more clear about it i admit. What i actually mean is Goku and Vegeta should stay the best now. (In relation to all the other Z Fighters) And the only people qualified to surpass stronger opponents ofcourse are Goku and Vegeta. Since they are a rapidly evolving species afterall.

That makes a little more sense. I heavily disagree that it should just be them, but you're a little clearer.

[ekrolo2]

I don't see how the rules are magically gonna keep you from being speed blitzed. Instead of being instantly neck snapped you instantly get smashed out of bounds.

If everyone was forced to fight on the same level of power this tactics shit would work fine but the rules aren't gonna save you from getting ground into dust.

[VegettoEX]

The reason why i (and many other "powerlevel enthousiasts") like the dragon ball series so much, is because it's ultimately a series that's based on power, strength, improvement, evolution!

and if someone is the best, than he should stay the best imo.

These two points are at direct odds with each other.

Time and time again in the series we've seen characters (Goku above all else, but certainly other characters) NOT be the strongest. They've fought and they've lost. Goku lost two tournaments before he finally won. Goku lost to Demon King Piccolo. Goku effectively lost to Vegeta. And so on and so forth.

What made all of these fights interesting? The surrounding context. 21st tournament? Turtle sage's analysis of the younger generation, their increasing leaps in power, and the need to give them the moral/ethical self-awareness to deal with it (which, I'd argue, never actually happened with Goku, or if it did, he fell back on it, which continues to be interesting). 22nd tournament? Fairly balanced final fight, with external factors contributing to his loss. Piccolo fight? SMASHED. Absolutely smashed, following by a magical water that suddenly made everything OK. Raditz? Took a team-up between rivals (and a sacrifice due to incompetence and naivety). Vegeta fight? Took tons of character deaths, a bit of arrogance and excitement, and the return of characters who couldn't let well enough alone to bring it to a close.

That stuff is dramatic storytelling and it's what makes things INTERESTING.

You can't want characters to stagnate as the best of the best while simultaneously wanting them to evolve further. Goku's always looking to best HIMSELF, sure, but even he has a little bit of envy looking to Vegeta. He seemingly still loves the macguffin that is Monaka as a bit of driving force. Vegeta's constantly looking to surpass Goku, even now. The other characters? Kuririn, for example, has consistently told us how afraid he is of Goku's power, but respects him and always wants to help.

THIS is the stuff I love about the series. I'd argue it's what YOU love about the series too, but you're missing the forest for the trees in your self-analysis.

[GodVegetto91]

The reason why i (and many other "powerlevel enthousiasts") like the dragon ball series so much, is because it's ultimately a series that's based on power, strength, improvement, evolution!

and if someone is the best, than he should stay the best imo.

These two points are at direct odds with each other.

Time and time again in the series we've seen characters (Goku above all else, but certainly other characters) NOT be the strongest. They've fought and they've lost. Goku lost two tournaments before he finally won. Goku lost to Demon King Piccolo. Goku effectively lost to Vegeta. And so on and so forth.

What made all of these fights interesting? The surrounding context. 21st tournament? Turtle sage's analysis of the younger generation, their increasing leaps in power, and the need to give them the moral/ethical self-awareness to deal with it (which, I'd argue, never actually happened with Goku, or if it did, he fell back on it, which continues to be interesting). 22nd tournament? Fairly balanced final fight, with external factors contributing to his loss. Piccolo fight? SMASHED. Absolutely smashed, following by a magical water that suddenly made everything OK. Raditz? Took a team-up between rivals (and a sacrifice due to incompetence and naivety). Vegeta fight? Took tons of character deaths, a bit of arrogance and excitement, and the return of characters who couldn't let well enough alone to bring it to a close.

That stuff is dramatic storytelling and it's what makes things INTERESTING.

You can't want characters to stagnate as the best of the best while simultaneously wanting them to evolve further. Goku's always looking to best HIMSELF, sure, but even he has a little bit of envy looking to Vegeta. He seemingly still loves the macguffin that is Monaka as a bit of driving force. Vegeta's constantly looking to surpass Goku, even now. The other characters? Kuririn, for example, has consistently told us how afraid he is of Goku's power, but respects him and always wants to help.

THIS is the stuff I love about the series. I'd argue it's what YOU love about the series too, but you're missing the forest for the trees in your self-analysis.

You seem to be completely missing my point.
Goku and Vegeta obviously never were the strongest with no potential threats against them. They've had many losses and beatdowns and got right back up. That's what i love about the series too. Especially since they're Saiyans and thus are a rapidly evolving species. A "Growing Race" as opposed to most of the other characters.

So i love that. But i'm merely arguing that i can not tolerate mere humans, such as krillin, approaching a level where they can more or less provide a slight degree of resistance against a heavily holding back Goku in his SSJ Blue state.

[emperior]

What some people haven't realized is that strategy will only work in this Tournament of Power, which is a battle royal with no killing allowed where teamwork is essential and the only way to win is via ring out. Strategy obviously plays a big part in it because even someone like Goku can get caught off guard and fell off the ring. It's not the same thing as it has been before. There was no point in emphasizing strategy this much when we had 1vs1 tournaments because it's difficult to get caught off guard when you are fighting just one person, though strategy can also be important in 1vs1 and we have seen it plenty of times throughout the serie, but someone like Freezer, Cell or Majin Buu can't be killed with strategy alone by a weaker warrior - it's impossible. I saw some people saying "if strategy was ever that important then why didn't Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin kill Freezer on Namek" completely ignoring the point of that battle was to kill Freezer, not to ring him out. Some people also forget how much strategy played a big part in the battle against Raditz and Oozaru Vegeta, and against Nappa and Freezer to a certain degree.

[PsionicWarrior]

I'm merely arguing that i can not tolerate mere humans, such as krillin, approaching a level where they can more or less provide a slight degree of resistance against a heavily holding back Goku in his SSJ Blue state.

I 100% agree with you and was outraged by the scene but someone made a good point here.

If Beerus, prior to becoming a part of the central cast, can show enough restraint in his power to slap Bulma and not kill her instantly, then it's really not far-fetched at all for Goku being able drastically restrain his strength, even as a Super Saiyan Blue, against Krillin in a sparring match. Especially since Super Saiyan Blue is all about perfect ki control.

I think I can accept that explanation actually, the perfect Ki control. If Krillin is a joke during the battle royale when it comes to fighting but can outsmart and contribute with great team backup strategy instead it might just turn out great. Fingers crossed.

[TheMikado]

...The reason why i (and many other "powerlevel enthousiasts") like the dragon ball series so much, is because it's ultimately a series that's based on power, strength, improvement, evolution! Goku and Vegeta are of course the only full blooded saiyans in town, (hence the only one qualified to join the ranks of the celestials, since they belong to a "warrior race" afterall) who have managed to come across all odds, and managed to evolve themselves to levels beyond even SSJ God. Like i said, Gohan is welcome to join them. if anyone was going to have a chance to join Goku and Vegeta, it would be Gohan for obvious reasons. (His POTENTIAL) as demonstrated on a very young age. While the kids just don't seem to have it in them, (or rather, the writers want to keep Goten and Trunks on the same level as they've always had been, or so it seems)

Powerscaling is one of THE most important factors into keeping it a "consistent" show, especially when it comes to a show like this...

If that were true, the power-scaling enthusiasts wouldn't have to bend over backwards while repeatedly leaping over volcanoes to make their numbers work. If that's what the series was about, you wouldn't have the conundrum that you do right now, where none of the fights make sense to you. At a certain point, the problem just can't be everything else.

I don't really understand this point, this is exactly what people are complaining about right?

In the past it has be established that if the power gap was too great, there was literally nothing an opponent could do to hurt the other. Toriyama himself established the trope that POWER trumps all. This was not a fan creation for Dragon Ball. When our friend Krillin is literally incapable of doing anything at all against Perfect Cell, and this is the norm. What do you expect the fans to think when there are power gaps of even greater magnitudes. You CANNOT argue that Toriyama himself didn't establish this precedent. That being said, as I have said in other threads. The work and struggle each character faces on the road to over come these obstacles is what makes the series so great. There is no denying Toriyama himself put an emphasis of power above all, however the other troupe which is so prevalent is that sheer will power, determination, and sacrifice will give you the power to overcome those obstacles. The "power levels" are merely representations of concrete obstacles which characters work to overcome.

[Lord Beerus]

I actually appreciate is tossing out the unofficial battle power rule book and is experimenting in other areas to make the Tournament of Power interesting. The approach to it could have certainly been handled better, but for what it worth, I have no bones at all for Super going out its way to make guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien more relevant to the plot instead of making a Saiyan heavy party, much like what we got from Cell's debut and on-wards in the original story. They got off to a good start with Krillin. With the heavy emphasises on how much of a pragmatic and cunning fight he is, despite the odds not being in his favour in the battle power department. And I'm very intrigued to say the very least how they will handle the deeper and more detailed reasoning for guys like Roshi and Tien being included in the team. Super can still make the approach work very well and has been taking a step in the right direction for, despite it's minor hiccups in the narrative. And if Super fumbles with this concept then that's on them for dropping the ball with the supporting cast.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

I actually appreciate is tossing out the unofficial battle power rule book and is experimenting in other areas to make the Tournament of Power interesting. The approach to it could have certainly been handled better, but for what it worth, I have no bones at all for Super going out its way to make guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien more relevant to the plot instead of making a Saiyan heavy party, much like what we got from Cell's debut and on-wards in the original story. They got off to a good start with Krillin. With the heavy emphasises on how much of a pragmatic and cunning fight he is, despite the odds not being in his favour in the battle power department. And I'm very intrigued to say the very least how they will handle the deeper and more detailed reasoning for guys like Roshi and Tien being included in the team. Super can still make the approach work very well and has been taking a step in the right direction for, despite it's minor hiccups in the narrative. And if Super fumbles with this concept then that's on them for dropping the ball with the supporting cast.

Roshi is legit the only perseon they will have problems and because how much I see people praise Tien, I don't think anybody will have a problem with him.

And unless people want the Goku and Vegeta show or another saiyan show like half of what z was, they should at least some what okay with this.

[TheMikado]

I actually appreciate is tossing out the unofficial battle power rule book and is experimenting in other areas to make the Tournament of Power interesting. The approach to it could have certainly been handled better, but for what it worth, I have no bones at all for Super going out its way to make guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien more relevant to the plot instead of making a Saiyan heavy party, much like what we got from Cell's debut and on-wards in the original story. They got off to a good start with Krillin. With the heavy emphasises on how much of a pragmatic and cunning fight he is, despite the odds not being in his favour in the battle power department. And I'm very intrigued to say the very least how they will handle the deeper and more detailed reasoning for guys like Roshi and Tien being included in the team. Super can still make the approach work very well and has been taking a step in the right direction for, despite it's minor hiccups in the narrative. And if Super fumbles with this concept then that's on them for dropping the ball with the supporting cast.

Roshi is legit the only perseon they will have problems and because how much I see people praise Tien, I don't think anybody will have a problem with him.

And unless people want the Goku and Vegeta show or another saiyan show like half of what z was, they should at least some what okay with this.

The problem is the narrative made it that way.

You can't suddenly go from this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B1LkjuDJ-0

to Krillin beam struggling SSB, even is Goku is holding back enormously how does that help Krillin in the tournament.
The outcome, not matter his tactics should pretty much be the same as it was for Cell. Shoot when we have Base level Vegeta doing this to SSJ3 Gotenks, the expectation is established that Krillin literally cannot even catch a character off guard who would have a power level above base Goku level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zlxeIcvrKc


Right now, his primary worth, in terms him actually having a direct affect on an enemy would be to spam solar flare x 100. Otherwise its not consistent with what both Z and Super showed us.


Look I applaud the effort, but like the OP says the time for this is far too late and the gap is much too wide to make characters like Krillin have any believable relevance without a very specific plot device.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

I actually appreciate is tossing out the unofficial battle power rule book and is experimenting in other areas to make the Tournament of Power interesting. The approach to it could have certainly been handled better, but for what it worth, I have no bones at all for Super going out its way to make guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien more relevant to the plot instead of making a Saiyan heavy party, much like what we got from Cell's debut and on-wards in the original story. They got off to a good start with Krillin. With the heavy emphasises on how much of a pragmatic and cunning fight he is, despite the odds not being in his favour in the battle power department. And I'm very intrigued to say the very least how they will handle the deeper and more detailed reasoning for guys like Roshi and Tien being included in the team. Super can still make the approach work very well and has been taking a step in the right direction for, despite it's minor hiccups in the narrative. And if Super fumbles with this concept then that's on them for dropping the ball with the supporting cast.

Roshi is legit the only perseon they will have problems and because how much I see people praise Tien, I don't think anybody will have a problem with him.

And unless people want the Goku and Vegeta show or another saiyan show like half of what z was, they should at least some what okay with this.

The problem is the narrative made it that way.

You can't suddenly go from this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B1LkjuDJ-0

to Krillin beam struggling SSB, even is Goku is holding back enormously how does that help Krillin in the tournament.
The outcome, not matter his tactics should pretty much be the same as it was for Cell. Shoot when we have Base level Vegeta doing this to SSJ3 Gotenks, the expectation is established that Krillin literally cannot even catch a character off guard who would have a power level above base Goku level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zlxeIcvrKc


Right now, his primary worth, in terms him actually having a direct affect on an enemy would be to spam solar flare x 100. Otherwise its not consistent with what both Z and Super showed us.


Look I applaud the effort, but like the OP says the time for this is far too late and the gap is much too wide to make characters like Krillin have any believable relevance without a very specific plot device.

He held back, If Beerus can salp Bulma without her dieing zero problems, Don't see how Goku can't do some thing along the same lines to.

And SSB is about perfect ki control.

Edit: "without"

[TheMikado]

Roshi is legit the only perseon they will have problems and because how much I see people praise Tien, I don't think anybody will have a problem with him.

And unless people want the Goku and Vegeta show or another saiyan show like half of what z was, they should at least some what okay with this.

The problem is the narrative made it that way.

You can't suddenly go from this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B1LkjuDJ-0

to Krillin beam struggling SSB, even is Goku is holding back enormously how does that help Krillin in the tournament.
The outcome, not matter his tactics should pretty much be the same as it was for Cell. Shoot when we have Base level Vegeta doing this to SSJ3 Gotenks, the expectation is established that Krillin literally cannot even catch a character off guard who would have a power level above base Goku level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zlxeIcvrKc


Right now, his primary worth, in terms him actually having a direct affect on an enemy would be to spam solar flare x 100. Otherwise its not consistent with what both Z and Super showed us.


Look I applaud the effort, but like the OP says the time for this is far too late and the gap is much too wide to make characters like Krillin have any believable relevance without a very specific plot device.

He held back, If Beerus can salp Bulma without her dieing zero problems, Don't see how Goku can't do some thing along the same lines to.

And SSB is about perfect ki control.

Edit: "without"

Look if Beerus powered up to his most powerful and then charged his death ball and slapped Bulma, everyone would be saying WTF too..
But look ill even play your game, I'll accept your premise of Ki control.
But what does that do for Krillin in the tournament where if any opponent is stronger than base Goku, Krillin should be complete lunch meat.
Its not like they are going to have a reason to hold back. What happens when Krillin is taking on SSJ Goku or SSB level opponents? Then what will the reasoning be?

[Ki Breaker]

The problem is the narrative made it that way.

You can't suddenly go from this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B1LkjuDJ-0

to Krillin beam struggling SSB, even is Goku is holding back enormously how does that help Krillin in the tournament.
The outcome, not matter his tactics should pretty much be the same as it was for Cell. Shoot when we have Base level Vegeta doing this to SSJ3 Gotenks, the expectation is established that Krillin literally cannot even catch a character off guard who would have a power level above base Goku level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zlxeIcvrKc


Right now, his primary worth, in terms him actually having a direct affect on an enemy would be to spam solar flare x 100. Otherwise its not consistent with what both Z and Super showed us.


Look I applaud the effort, but like the OP says the time for this is far too late and the gap is much too wide to make characters like Krillin have any believable relevance without a very specific plot device.

He held back, If Beerus can salp Bulma without her dieing zero problems, Don't see how Goku can't do some thing along the same lines to.

And SSB is about perfect ki control.

Edit: "without"

Look if Beerus powered up to his most powerful and then charged his death ball and slapped Bulma, everyone would be saying WTF too..
But look ill even play your game, I'll accept your premise of Ki control.
But what does that do for Krillin in the tournament where if any opponent is stronger than base Goku, Krillin should be complete lunch meat.
Its not like they are going to have a reason to hold back. What happens when Krillin is taking on SSJ Goku or SSB level opponents? Then what will the reasoning be?

Using full power all the time lowers your stamina and power, nobody would bother using full power against Krillin when they know they can beat him easy and that's when Krillin catches them offguard

[VegettoEX]

The entire point of this tournament is that there are going to be dozens and dozens of fighters out there. It's a battle royale!

Some will be looking to take out as many low-level folks as they can. We've also already been told that plenty are going to be going straight for Goku right from the start.

This leaves a perfect opportunity for Kuririn to be crafty and help take out some unsuspecting foes during all the madness.

This isn't excusing bad writing; this is praising good writing.

[TheMikado]

Toriyama himself has shown If the enemy is powerful enough they don't even have to be paying attention or using any stamina at all. I've referenced these instances. Just by them sheer existing, Krillin wasn't able to do anything to an enemy with a substantial power gap.

What I've been saying is that is the gap is significant enough there's no such thing as "catching them off guard".

I won't deny there may be low level fighters, but as I stated, based on how Toriyama himself wrote the Dragonball narrative. Any fighter stronger than base Goku in the Super anime should yield the same effects of Krillin vs Cell or SSJ3 Gotenks vs. base Copy Vegeta. This idea of catching opponents off guard if their is a HUGE power gap is a myth, that really isn't supported by what we have seen. We have seen fighters who are a tier or two below a fighter catch an opponent off guard, however Toriyama time and time again has shown if the power gap is too significant. There is almost nothing you can do.

You can't establish something for years in-universe and suddenly say oh nevermind that doesn't apply. Actually you can, but that doesn't make good writing.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

The entire point of this tournament is that there are going to be dozens and dozens of fighters out there. It's a battle royale!

Some will be looking to take out as many low-level folks as they can. We've also already been told that plenty are going to be going straight for Goku right from the start.

This leaves a perfect opportunity for Kuririn to be crafty and help take out some unsuspecting foes during all the madness.

This isn't excusing bad writing; this is praising good writing.

Agreed. Also:

Goku could be fighting Jiren for the entire royal.

lol don't know why people are acting like all the ssbb can't just fight each other.

leaving their weaker members to fight amongst themselves.

[VegettoEX]

This idea of catching opponents off guard if their is a HUGE power gap is a myth, that really isn't supported by what we have seen. We have seen fighters who are a tier or two below a fighter catch an opponent off guard, however Toriyama time and time again has shown if the power gap is too significant. There is almost nothing you can do.

You can't establish something for years in-universe and suddenly say oh nevermind that doesn't apply. Actually you can, but that doesn't make good writing.

In this case, it's not about catching them off-guard and... I dunno, killing them; all someone has to do is get a ring-out. I mean, see: Goku vs. Botamo.

I really, really, really don't see the issue here.

[MathSSJ]

Toriyama himself has shown If the enemy is powerful enough they don't even have to be paying attention or using any stamina at all. I've referenced these instances. Just by them sheer existing, Krillin wasn't able to do anything to an enemy with a substantial power gap.

What I've been saying is that is the gap is significant enough there's no such thing as "catching them off guard".

Nappa was getting constantly hammered by Kurrin and Piccolo, despite being massively stronger and even if there was no real damage done, the blows still had all the impact. Freeza at 50% was knocked away by a Piccolo using scraps of Gohan and Kuririn's energy. Super Saiyan kid Trunks kicked Majin Boo hard enough to have a lengthy chat with Vegeta.

The Cell situation is an exception, not the rule.