Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

[dragonballgeek]

Goku was holding back in SSJB and was only giving Krillin a sense of what it feels like when being confronted with such power. Hence why Kakarot said to him "what will you do now?" knowing Krillin can't compete with Blue but it's called Goku proving Krillin for the upcoming battle. To get use to this type of power.

Trunks had a power up due to rage boost. He also used the power of the people of that future world...It's called Genki Dama... This is nothing new in Dragonball.

The reason why people claim there is "inconsistency" because they just don't like how characters won or lost.

I feel like you completely missed the point here... I recommend reading some of these posts.

[dragonballgeek]

Please Miracles, please tell me how Trunks used the spirit bomb without it being a slap in the face to the original manga and makes sense because you really, really can't

Because a genki dama is filled with the hopes of all the earth [canon].
That world hoped for Trunks to defeat Zamasu and so it was.
Nothing complicated about it.

My goodness... I really hope other people see this.


THIS is exactly what people are talking about. Turning a blind eye and convincing yourself it makes sense


Let's just completely forget Goku having to exclusively learn this technique from King Kai. Let's just give it to Trunks and the kids because they really want to win. Nevermind the process/training Goku had to go through to master that technique.

[Hit!!]

Please Miracles, please tell me how Trunks used the spirit bomb without it being a slap in the face to the original manga and makes sense because you really, really can't

Because a genki dama is filled with the hopes of all the earth [canon].
That world hoped for Trunks to defeat Zamasu and so it was.
Nothing complicated about it.

Genki dama is a technique, not something that just happens!!!

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Please Miracles, please tell me how Trunks used the spirit bomb without it being a slap in the face to the original manga and makes sense because you really, really can't

Because a genki dama is filled with the hopes of all the earth [canon].
That world hoped for Trunks to defeat Zamasu and so it was.
Nothing complicated about it.

Genki dama is a technique, not something that just happens!!!

You didn't notice those Genki-Dama's falling all over the place in the background of the original manga? Yeah... no. Sorry Miracles, the same nonsensical explanation that Super gave doesn't suddenly work just because you repeat it in addition to saying ""Nothing complicated about it" or putting the word canon in parenthesis. I know forcing continuity is kind of your thing, but it literally cannot jive given the precedents set by the entire series previous.

[pacz360]

Not caring about blatant power level inconsistencies is now seen as the "cool" and "mature" thing for some Dragon Ball fans to do.

You will find a lot of said people on this website where some users really like to go against what they perceive casual fans to like about the show.

For example you'll have many posts calling Goku nothing but a dumbass martial arts hillbilly with zero depth while ignoring all his heroic traits in the manga all because more casual fans perceive Goku to be a straight up hero.

You will also find a lot of these users defending Gohan being given the hard shaft for so long making fans sound silly for wanting a character in an action, adventure, martial arts anime to participate in some action and do some martial arts by saying something like "Gohan's a scholar and has a family you should be happy for him if you only like him when he's punching people you were never a true Gohan fan"

This is basically a way for said users to feel a sense on superiority when comparing themselves with other Dragon Ball fans and that caring about power levels is beneath them and that they enjoy Dragon Ball on a superior level that lesser fans couldn't understand.

In order to do this they will even defend bad writing to the death just to achieve this warped sense of self-satisfaction.

They will never admit that with Dragon Ball Super's piss poor writing all sense of tension and suspense has reached an all time low for the series (this is a series named after wish granting balls for god's sake it's gotten that bad) this is because now characters can just 'get stronger' no explanation needed they just 'get stronger' and ascend to God tier power out of nowhere just because. While the manga at its worst had magic water and zenkai bargain sales.

And these fans will defend it with by saying stuff like "it was fun" and "haha this is gonna get Power Level fans so mad xD"

But DBS really has a strangely dedicated defence force, like some will never admit that Goten, Trunks and Marron not ageing a day since the series began and Future Trunks' hair being blue all of a sudden is just silly.

He also used the power of the people of that future world...It's called Genki Dama... This is nothing new in Dragonball.

Case in point right here.

Please Miracles, please tell me how Trunks used the spirit bomb without it being a slap in the face to the original manga and makes sense because you really, really can't

Something like this I agree with.
Trunks spirit bomb sword crap was the worst shit I ever and straight detest.

[pacz360]

Please Miracles, please tell me how Trunks used the spirit bomb without it being a slap in the face to the original manga and makes sense because you really, really can't

Because a genki dama is filled with the hopes of all the earth [canon].
That world hoped for Trunks to defeat Zamasu and so it was.
Nothing complicated about it.

My goodness... I really hope other people see this.


THIS is exactly what people are talking about. Turning a blind eye and convincing yourself it makes sense


Let's just completely forget Goku having to exclusively learn this technique from King Kai. Let's just give it to Trunks and the kids because they really want to win. Nevermind the process/training Goku had to go through to master that technique.

That I agree with you it would been much if vegito and trunks work together to put zamasu down instead of that shit we witness

[TheMikado]

In reference to the Trunks thing, I have to be honest.
I barely blinked an eye because characters have been pulling out random techniques that we never saw, foreshadowed, or even mentioned them developing throughout the entirety of Super. Trunks had been pulling off random techniques the whole time so I didn't even blink when he did this. Granted some are from the movies but its just modern Dragonball as a whole.

You have the never hinted at SSG form but apparently is part of ancient Saiyan lore, Vegeta's sudden rage form, Gohan going SSJ (didn't even know he could lose the Ultimate form), Trained/Golden Frieza, SSB, KK x SSB (Which somehow Vegeta didn't notice and Goku seems to have mastered now), Father/son attacks, Sythe manifestations, SSR, Shadow clones and tearing holes in reality to the Shadow realms, Trunks super speed demon wave learning, the list literally goes on and on of random out of nowhere stuff. I swear I literally didn't blink an eye.
So I honestly didn't even think about Krillin learn x100 solar flare despite not training for years and apparently figuring it out in 10 days.. This is all just par for the course at this point.

[Ki Breaker]

In reference to the Trunks thing, I have to be honest.
I barely blinked an eye because characters have been pulling out random techniques that we never saw, foreshadowed, or even mentioned them developing throughout the entirety of Super. Trunks had been pulling off random techniques the whole time so I didn't even blink when he did this. Granted some are from the movies but its just modern Dragonball as a whole.

You have the never hinted at SSG form but apparently is part of ancient Saiyan lore, Vegeta's sudden rage form, Gohan going SSJ (didn't even know he could lose the Ultimate form), Trained/Golden Frieza, SSB, KK x SSB (Which somehow Vegeta didn't notice and Goku seems to have mastered now), Father/son attacks, Sythe manifestations, SSR, Shadow clones and tearing holes in reality to the Shadow realms, Trunks super speed demon wave learning, the list literally goes on and on of random out of nowhere stuff. I swear I literally didn't blink an eye.
So I honestly didn't even think about Krillin learn x100 solar flare despite not training for years and apparently figuring it out in 10 days.. This is all just par for the course at this point.

I am leaning towards ignoring rof and ft arc completely..
They both were garbage, whatever ft arc had built up they shat on that so hard their anus exploded on our faces, and I don't appreciate that..

Never should Trunks level bull be pulled to make a character relevant, even if he stays a rag doll for the entire arc

[dragonballgeek]

Because a genki dama is filled with the hopes of all the earth [canon].
That world hoped for Trunks to defeat Zamasu and so it was.
Nothing complicated about it.

My goodness... I really hope other people see this.


THIS is exactly what people are talking about. Turning a blind eye and convincing yourself it makes sense


Let's just completely forget Goku having to exclusively learn this technique from King Kai. Let's just give it to Trunks and the kids because they really want to win. Nevermind the process/training Goku had to go through to master that technique.

That I agree with you it would been much if vegito and trunks work together to put zamasu down instead of that shit we witness

Glad that we can agree on something haha

[dragonballgeek]

In reference to the Trunks thing, I have to be honest.
I barely blinked an eye because characters have been pulling out random techniques that we never saw, foreshadowed, or even mentioned them developing throughout the entirety of Super. Trunks had been pulling off random techniques the whole time so I didn't even blink when he did this. Granted some are from the movies but its just modern Dragonball as a whole.

You have the never hinted at SSG form but apparently is part of ancient Saiyan lore, Vegeta's sudden rage form, Gohan going SSJ (didn't even know he could lose the Ultimate form), Trained/Golden Frieza, SSB, KK x SSB (Which somehow Vegeta didn't notice and Goku seems to have mastered now), Father/son attacks, Sythe manifestations, SSR, Shadow clones and tearing holes in reality to the Shadow realms, Trunks super speed demon wave learning, the list literally goes on and on of random out of nowhere stuff. I swear I literally didn't blink an eye.
So I honestly didn't even think about Krillin learn x100 solar flare despite not training for years and apparently figuring it out in 10 days.. This is all just par for the course at this point.

I am leaning towards ignoring rof and ft arc completely..
They both were garbage, whatever ft arc had built up they shat on that so hard their anus exploded on our faces, and I don't appreciate that..

Never should Trunks level bull be pulled to make a character relevant, even if he stays a rag doll for the entire arc

Honesty the whole Trunks power level issue would've been fixed for me if we saw him training more and someone explaining to him how to access divine energy. That's all it would've taken to satisfy me. For some reason I'm not cool with Vegeta beating him senseless as a way for him to power up..

But there's no way I could ever justify the sword spirit bomb, no matter how much I like Trunks.

[emperior]

To be honest I always see people pointing out power levels inconsistencies, so I perceive quite the opposite from what you are saying - last episode (ep84) for example was fine in my opinion though it got heavily criticized, especially on this forum, for how it handled the battles and power levels. I'm the first one who is quite annoyed at how we never know where Goku and Vegeta stand compared to Beerus, how we no idea what their power is while they are in base - and there are also other power levels-related problems in Super, but there aren't as many as some people claim out to be.

By the way, Super is continuing the trend from the Buu arc, so it's not like Toriyama's work never had these problems. I will never excuse something just because it's from Toriyama, though I'm quite annoyed when people start bashing Toei for some stuffs when we don't have any idea how much is from Toei and how much is from Toriyama (ex. Goku kiss gag, many people bashed Toei for it, and now we know it's 99% from Toriyama considering the manga also had the same exact gag) I'm not saying to not criticize, but at least don't direct your criticism to Toei unless you are sure its their idea.

[TheMikado]

In reference to the Trunks thing, I have to be honest.
I barely blinked an eye because characters have been pulling out random techniques that we never saw, foreshadowed, or even mentioned them developing throughout the entirety of Super. Trunks had been pulling off random techniques the whole time so I didn't even blink when he did this. Granted some are from the movies but its just modern Dragonball as a whole.

You have the never hinted at SSG form but apparently is part of ancient Saiyan lore, Vegeta's sudden rage form, Gohan going SSJ (didn't even know he could lose the Ultimate form), Trained/Golden Frieza, SSB, KK x SSB (Which somehow Vegeta didn't notice and Goku seems to have mastered now), Father/son attacks, Sythe manifestations, SSR, Shadow clones and tearing holes in reality to the Shadow realms, Trunks super speed demon wave learning, the list literally goes on and on of random out of nowhere stuff. I swear I literally didn't blink an eye.
So I honestly didn't even think about Krillin learn x100 solar flare despite not training for years and apparently figuring it out in 10 days.. This is all just par for the course at this point.

I am leaning towards ignoring rof and ft arc completely..
They both were garbage, whatever ft arc had built up they shat on that so hard their anus exploded on our faces, and I don't appreciate that..

Never should Trunks level bull be pulled to make a character relevant, even if he stays a rag doll for the entire arc

Honesty the whole Trunks power level issue would've been fixed for me if we saw him training more and someone explaining to him how to access divine energy. That's all it would've taken to satisfy me. For some reason I'm not cool with Vegeta beating him senseless as a way for him to power up..

But there's no way I could ever justify the sword spirit bomb, no matter how much I like Trunks.

I'll be honest once again. I can tolerant anything Dragon Ball throws at me, just throw me a bone with some stupid one liner explanation.
For instance, One line throw-a-ways I would hate but accept:

Supreme Kai taught me a variation on the Spirit Bomb, because we trained with the Z sword it took the form of sword.
After experiencing God ki, Trunks began to learn to partially channel the God ki. Combined with Vegeta's genetic trait of rage boosts made a God ki rage boosted form.

^ I literally hate the above two reasons just like I hate the 4 months Frieza training reason, but I accept it.
It honestly feels like the reasoning is so awful they feel like they don't even have to try and justify any "cool" moments they make anymore, and as part of the audience that pisses me the hell off. I like a good, concrete, and consistent narrative that connects in-universe no matter the BS fictional reason. Now they aren't even bothering to give me that much respect..

[TheMikado]

To be honest I always see people pointing out power levels inconsistencies, so I perceive quite the opposite from what you are saying - last episode (ep84) for example was fine in my opinion though it got heavily criticized, especially on this forum, for how it handled the battles and power levels. I'm the first one who is quite annoyed at how we never know where Goku and Vegeta stand compared to Beerus, how we no idea what their power is while they are in base - and there are also other power levels-related problems in Super, but there aren't as many as some people claim out to be.

By the way, Super is continuing the trend from the Buu arc, so it's not like Toriyama's work never had these problems. I will never excuse something just because it's from Toriyama, though I'm quite annoyed when people start bashing Toei for some stuffs when we don't have any idea how much is from Toei and how much is from Toriyama (ex. Goku kiss gag, many people bashed Toei for it, and now we know it's 99% from Toriyama considering the manga also had the same exact gag) I'm not saying to not criticize, but at least don't direct your criticism to Toei unless you are sure its their idea.

I don't think most people are even looking at specifically who did what unless they are trying to defend their choice of media. Most people just don't like it regardless of who did it. If it was revealed that Toriyama was responsible for SS Rage, many would still dislike it. Further if we find out the spirit sword is from Toriyama, I doubt that would make people switch their opinions on it. People didn't like Golden Frieza and we know that came from Toriyama. I don't think who did what is the problem as much as this stuff exists in "canon" in the first place. I think the things that are getting the most hate are the ones that retroactively change people's understanding or assumptions about a narrative.

-Goku never kissing - For many fans they may feel it retroactively means Goku never had a truly mature, romantic relationship with Chi-chi. It makes him less human and well adjusted in their eyes. Further, for some people the fact that they have kids despite not having a romantic relationship may be even more off- putting.

-Frieza never trained- For fans, it really makes the SSJ form feel less special. It seems like all Frieza had to do was 5 minutes of training and he would have won... Further If Frieza had spent just one day kicking his subordinates butts they probably would have won their respective fights.

- 28 planets with life- It literally makes the Dragon World much smaller than fans imagined. Its disappointing to think there may not be many places of interest to visit within the current universe.

- Beerus telling frieza to destroy the saiyans, killing the dinosaurs, and sealing Elder kai....I dont even want to get into this one...

Anyway, my whole point is to say this. Super manages to do something that not even GT manages to do. Retroactively change your understanding of the Dragonball universe and the characters and their relations to each other. Its easy to assume that a lot of people liked things the way they were in their own minds so when Super comes along and changes those perceptions can you blame people for being unhappy with them?

[emperior]

To be honest I always see people pointing out power levels inconsistencies, so I perceive quite the opposite from what you are saying - last episode (ep84) for example was fine in my opinion though it got heavily criticized, especially on this forum, for how it handled the battles and power levels. I'm the first one who is quite annoyed at how we never know where Goku and Vegeta stand compared to Beerus, how we no idea what their power is while they are in base - and there are also other power levels-related problems in Super, but there aren't as many as some people claim out to be.

By the way, Super is continuing the trend from the Buu arc, so it's not like Toriyama's work never had these problems. I will never excuse something just because it's from Toriyama, though I'm quite annoyed when people start bashing Toei for some stuffs when we don't have any idea how much is from Toei and how much is from Toriyama (ex. Goku kiss gag, many people bashed Toei for it, and now we know it's 99% from Toriyama considering the manga also had the same exact gag) I'm not saying to not criticize, but at least don't direct your criticism to Toei unless you are sure its their idea.

I don't think most people are even looking at specifically who did what unless they are trying to defend their choice of media. Most people just don't like it regardless of who did it. If it was revealed that Toriyama was responsible for SS Rage, many would still dislike it. Further if we find out the spirit sword is from Toriyama, I doubt that would make people switch their opinions on it. People didn't like Golden Frieza and we know that came from Toriyama. I don't think who did what is the problem as much as this stuff exists in "canon" in the first place. I think the things that are getting the most hate are the ones that retroactively change people's understanding or assumptions about a narrative.

-Goku never kissing - For many fans they may feel it retroactively means Goku never had a truly mature, romantic relationship with Chi-chi. It makes him less human and well adjusted in their eyes. Further, for some people the fact that they have kids despite not having a romantic relationship may be even more off- putting.

-Frieza never trained- For fans, it really makes the SSJ form feel less special. It seems like all Frieza had to do was 5 minutes of training and he would have won... Further If Frieza had spent just one day kicking his subordinates butts they probably would have won their respective fights.

- 28 planets with life- It literally makes the Dragon World much smaller than fans imagined. Its disappointing to think there may not be many places of interest to visit within the current universe.

- Beerus telling frieza to destroy the saiyans, killing the dinosaurs, and sealing Elder kai....I dont even want to get into this one...

Anyway, my whole point is to say this. Super manages to do something that not even GT manages to do. Retroactively change your understanding of the Dragonball universe and the characters and their relations to each other. Its easy to assume that a lot of people liked things the way they were in their own minds so when Super comes along and changes those perceptions can you blame people for being unhappy with them?

Retroactively changing your understanding isn't necessary a bad thing, as long as it's from Toriyama. Yes I need it to be from Toriyama because he is the original author, it's his world so whatever he does with it, like it or not, you have to accept it.
You should have known that a new Dragon Ball serie was inevitably going to change your understanding of Dragon Ball in some way. It's harder now because Super comes many years after the ending of the manga. Imagine if the "Z" portion of the serie came 20 years after the chapter where Goku spares Piccolo Jr's life: how many people would accept Goku's backstory as an alien? Though at this point that piece of information is seen by the almost every single fan (myself included) as one of the highlights of the serie. Making Goku an alien from a badass race of warriors is probably what made this franchise this successful, you can't deny it.

[Kanassa]

Making Goku an alien from a badass race of warriors is probably what made this franchise this successful, you can't deny it.

Goku being an alien isn't what upped the success rate, just what being an alien allowed him to do.

[TheMikado]

To be honest I always see people pointing out power levels inconsistencies, so I perceive quite the opposite from what you are saying - last episode (ep84) for example was fine in my opinion though it got heavily criticized, especially on this forum, for how it handled the battles and power levels. I'm the first one who is quite annoyed at how we never know where Goku and Vegeta stand compared to Beerus, how we no idea what their power is while they are in base - and there are also other power levels-related problems in Super, but there aren't as many as some people claim out to be.

By the way, Super is continuing the trend from the Buu arc, so it's not like Toriyama's work never had these problems. I will never excuse something just because it's from Toriyama, though I'm quite annoyed when people start bashing Toei for some stuffs when we don't have any idea how much is from Toei and how much is from Toriyama (ex. Goku kiss gag, many people bashed Toei for it, and now we know it's 99% from Toriyama considering the manga also had the same exact gag) I'm not saying to not criticize, but at least don't direct your criticism to Toei unless you are sure its their idea.

I don't think most people are even looking at specifically who did what unless they are trying to defend their choice of media. Most people just don't like it regardless of who did it. If it was revealed that Toriyama was responsible for SS Rage, many would still dislike it. Further if we find out the spirit sword is from Toriyama, I doubt that would make people switch their opinions on it. People didn't like Golden Frieza and we know that came from Toriyama. I don't think who did what is the problem as much as this stuff exists in "canon" in the first place. I think the things that are getting the most hate are the ones that retroactively change people's understanding or assumptions about a narrative.

-Goku never kissing - For many fans they may feel it retroactively means Goku never had a truly mature, romantic relationship with Chi-chi. It makes him less human and well adjusted in their eyes. Further, for some people the fact that they have kids despite not having a romantic relationship may be even more off- putting.

-Frieza never trained- For fans, it really makes the SSJ form feel less special. It seems like all Frieza had to do was 5 minutes of training and he would have won... Further If Frieza had spent just one day kicking his subordinates butts they probably would have won their respective fights.

- 28 planets with life- It literally makes the Dragon World much smaller than fans imagined. Its disappointing to think there may not be many places of interest to visit within the current universe.

- Beerus telling frieza to destroy the saiyans, killing the dinosaurs, and sealing Elder kai....I dont even want to get into this one...

Anyway, my whole point is to say this. Super manages to do something that not even GT manages to do. Retroactively change your understanding of the Dragonball universe and the characters and their relations to each other. Its easy to assume that a lot of people liked things the way they were in their own minds so when Super comes along and changes those perceptions can you blame people for being unhappy with them?

Retroactively changing your understanding isn't necessary a bad thing, as long as it's from Toriyama. Yes I need it to be from Toriyama because he is the original author, it's his world so whatever he does with it, like it or not, you have to accept it.
You should have known that a new Dragon Ball serie was inevitably going to change your understanding of Dragon Ball in some way. It's harder now because Super comes many years after the ending of the manga. Imagine if the "Z" portion of the serie came 20 years after the chapter where Goku spares Piccolo Jr's life: how many people would accept Goku's backstory as an alien? Though at this point that piece of information is seen by the almost every single fan (myself included) as one of the highlights of the serie. Making Goku an alien from a badass race of warriors is probably what made this franchise this successful, you can't deny it.

I think this is what people refer to as blind fanaticism. Just because its from Toriyama doesn't make it good, neither does it not being from him. There are certainly changes people are ok with and like, however not everyone is going to like the changes. That's the expectation. Why should people "like" something just because it came from Toriyama?

[VegettoEX]

Not caring about blatant power level inconsistencies is now seen as the "cool" and "mature" thing for some Dragon Ball fans to do.

You will find a lot of said people on this website where some users really like to go against what they perceive casual fans to like about the show.

For example you'll have many posts calling Goku nothing but a dumbass martial arts hillbilly with zero depth while ignoring all his heroic traits in the manga all because more casual fans perceive Goku to be a straight up hero.

You will also find a lot of these users defending Gohan being given the hard shaft for so long making fans sound silly for wanting a character in an action, adventure, martial arts anime to participate in some action and do some martial arts by saying something like "Gohan's a scholar and has a family you should be happy for him if you only like him when he's punching people you were never a true Gohan fan"

This is basically a way for said users to feel a sense on superiority when comparing themselves with other Dragon Ball fans and that caring about power levels is beneath them and that they enjoy Dragon Ball on a superior level that lesser fans couldn't understand.

In order to do this they will even defend bad writing to the death just to achieve this warped sense of self-satisfaction.

They will never admit that with Dragon Ball Super's piss poor writing all sense of tension and suspense has reached an all time low for the series (this is a series named after wish granting balls for god's sake it's gotten that bad) this is because now characters can just 'get stronger' no explanation needed they just 'get stronger' and ascend to God tier power out of nowhere just because. While the manga at its worst had magic water and zenkai bargain sales.

And these fans will defend it with by saying stuff like "it was fun" and "haha this is gonna get Power Level fans so mad xD"

But DBS really has a strangely dedicated defence force, like some will never admit that Goten, Trunks and Marron not ageing a day since the series began and Future Trunks' hair being blue all of a sudden is just silly.

I'd be more than willing to go in depth on each and every one of these points (and have in the past), but I worry it would just come off as a personal attack if I keep doing it.

I don't know how many times I can say over and over that I have huge issues with Super, but it's like no-one pays attention to that.

Please Miracles, please tell me how Trunks used the spirit bomb without it being a slap in the face to the original manga and makes sense because you really, really can't

Can you explain to me how that's a slap in the face to the original manga?

I just can't follow your logic, when you handwave precisely the same kinds of writing problems in the original (magic water and near-death powerups). "This isn't as bad as that." OK, but why? I need YOU to explain the WHY of that, the same way you need ME to explain the WHY of the Genki-Dama Sword working.

This is why I run up against constantly. People have made up their minds about their rules for internal consistency, and there's no budging. I can't converse with that. You make it so frustrating that I just give up bothering to explain my position. You're not interested in hearing it.

As much as I loathe the scaling debates, I find the fandom psychology behind it fascinating and want to learn more about it. That's why I keep coming back to discussions I theoretically don't even enjoy in the first place. But every time I do, people personally remind me why I shouldn't bother.

Don't drive people away from these types of discussions if your goal is to convince them of something.

(I'm sure I have a lot to learn from that final statement, too, and I'm always working on it!)

[pacz360]

My goodness... I really hope other people see this.


THIS is exactly what people are talking about. Turning a blind eye and convincing yourself it makes sense


Let's just completely forget Goku having to exclusively learn this technique from King Kai. Let's just give it to Trunks and the kids because they really want to win. Nevermind the process/training Goku had to go through to master that technique.

That I agree with you it would been much if vegito and trunks work together to put zamasu down instead of that shit we witness

Glad that we can agree on something haha

Just because we disagree on the recent episode doesn't mean we can't agree on subjects on the franchise

[emperior]

I don't think most people are even looking at specifically who did what unless they are trying to defend their choice of media. Most people just don't like it regardless of who did it. If it was revealed that Toriyama was responsible for SS Rage, many would still dislike it. Further if we find out the spirit sword is from Toriyama, I doubt that would make people switch their opinions on it. People didn't like Golden Frieza and we know that came from Toriyama. I don't think who did what is the problem as much as this stuff exists in "canon" in the first place. I think the things that are getting the most hate are the ones that retroactively change people's understanding or assumptions about a narrative.

-Goku never kissing - For many fans they may feel it retroactively means Goku never had a truly mature, romantic relationship with Chi-chi. It makes him less human and well adjusted in their eyes. Further, for some people the fact that they have kids despite not having a romantic relationship may be even more off- putting.

-Frieza never trained- For fans, it really makes the SSJ form feel less special. It seems like all Frieza had to do was 5 minutes of training and he would have won... Further If Frieza had spent just one day kicking his subordinates butts they probably would have won their respective fights.

- 28 planets with life- It literally makes the Dragon World much smaller than fans imagined. Its disappointing to think there may not be many places of interest to visit within the current universe.

- Beerus telling frieza to destroy the saiyans, killing the dinosaurs, and sealing Elder kai....I dont even want to get into this one...

Anyway, my whole point is to say this. Super manages to do something that not even GT manages to do. Retroactively change your understanding of the Dragonball universe and the characters and their relations to each other. Its easy to assume that a lot of people liked things the way they were in their own minds so when Super comes along and changes those perceptions can you blame people for being unhappy with them?

Retroactively changing your understanding isn't necessary a bad thing, as long as it's from Toriyama. Yes I need it to be from Toriyama because he is the original author, it's his world so whatever he does with it, like it or not, you have to accept it.
You should have known that a new Dragon Ball serie was inevitably going to change your understanding of Dragon Ball in some way. It's harder now because Super comes many years after the ending of the manga. Imagine if the "Z" portion of the serie came 20 years after the chapter where Goku spares Piccolo Jr's life: how many people would accept Goku's backstory as an alien? Though at this point that piece of information is seen by the almost every single fan (myself included) as one of the highlights of the serie. Making Goku an alien from a badass race of warriors is probably what made this franchise this successful, you can't deny it.

I think this is what people refer to as blind fanaticism. Just because its from Toriyama doesn't make it good, neither does it not being from him. There are certainly changes people are ok with and like, however not everyone is going to like the changes. That's the expectation. Why should people "like" something just because it came from Toriyama?

I never said you have to like it, but you have to accept it. Which is different.

It's impossible for Toriyama to please all of the fanbase. Though I wouldn't like it if Toei started to change our understanding of the serie through Super (a serie which is being published as written by Toriyama as the continuation of his manga), writing things without the consent of Toriyama. I don't necessary like everything Toriyama does, or did, with Dragon Ball but I respect, and accept, what he does with his creation. Sure he could probably mess it up so much - in my view - that I could stop watching it (I'm sure some people stopped watching Super) but I would be happier to quit Dragon Ball Super after the original author messes it up rather than a 3rd party like Toei or Toyotaro (if he ever starts writing it without Toriyama's supervision)

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Okay, then why doesn't anyone crap on Super which is considerably shittier than almost everything you listed above except Minus? Why is GT the second Holocaust when Super does EVERYTHING wrong like GT did, like the Cell & Boo arcs did, that F and Minus did but Super still gets away with it because "its canon!".

Super doesn't really get away with anything though. It's more whiteknighted than GT, sure, but even GT started having fans ever since Super came out (or they just came out of hiding, which just proves how Super is hated now, that GT fans feel comfortable admitting they're GT fans).Super is still massively hated everywhere, especially the anime. It's the manga that is mostly praised.[/quote]

I don't even like the super manga and only start bashing it because how much praise I USE TO SEE for it, but nowhere everywhere do I see it being mostly praised anywhere anymore in the past like six months and I see WAY WAY MORE love for the anime than I do for the manga now. And I haven't really seen this massive super hate since the champa arc started and around the time a lot of people started to hate on the manga massively, besides for episodes 66,67,Future Trunks in general lol,the Botamo and Frost fight. is the only time I have see massive hate for the super anime and majority hating it a lot.

And I was one the of the first people on this site first to start bashing the manga since chapter 10,(hell if look at my history you can find it if you look hard enough.) And since then that I never seen the majority of people prefer the manga over the anime. Most people don't even read the manga to even come to that conclusion anyways.

Hell most people on this topic on this very forum said the anime was better than the manga. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=38030

Or just go read the manga thread and I see more people saying how anime is better and that SSG Vegeta is stupid, everytime a chapter is out its a legit shitstorm with people that hate the manga and people that like the manga vs each other its been case since SSBKK was not in the manga.

Also If the Super anime was hated as much as you say it when been canceled over a year ago by now, like GT was.

This is coming from me a guy who likes Gt and thinks SSJ4 is best form and think that Baby is the best villain with Zamasu.

Super is far far far more defended than GT ever was and this coming from some who likes them both, but Super way more lol.

This is only place where I seen people think the super anime still hated by the majority, Because if this was true it been canceled like well over 40 episodes ago