Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

[pacz360]

I don't think most people are even looking at specifically who did what unless they are trying to defend their choice of media. Most people just don't like it regardless of who did it. If it was revealed that Toriyama was responsible for SS Rage, many would still dislike it. Further if we find out the spirit sword is from Toriyama, I doubt that would make people switch their opinions on it. People didn't like Golden Frieza and we know that came from Toriyama. I don't think who did what is the problem as much as this stuff exists in "canon" in the first place. I think the things that are getting the most hate are the ones that retroactively change people's understanding or assumptions about a narrative.

-Goku never kissing - For many fans they may feel it retroactively means Goku never had a truly mature, romantic relationship with Chi-chi. It makes him less human and well adjusted in their eyes. Further, for some people the fact that they have kids despite not having a romantic relationship may be even more off- putting.

-Frieza never trained- For fans, it really makes the SSJ form feel less special. It seems like all Frieza had to do was 5 minutes of training and he would have won... Further If Frieza had spent just one day kicking his subordinates butts they probably would have won their respective fights.

- 28 planets with life- It literally makes the Dragon World much smaller than fans imagined. Its disappointing to think there may not be many places of interest to visit within the current universe.

- Beerus telling frieza to destroy the saiyans, killing the dinosaurs, and sealing Elder kai....I dont even want to get into this one...

Anyway, my whole point is to say this. Super manages to do something that not even GT manages to do. Retroactively change your understanding of the Dragonball universe and the characters and their relations to each other. Its easy to assume that a lot of people liked things the way they were in their own minds so when Super comes along and changes those perceptions can you blame people for being unhappy with them?

Retroactively changing your understanding isn't necessary a bad thing, as long as it's from Toriyama. Yes I need it to be from Toriyama because he is the original author, it's his world so whatever he does with it, like it or not, you have to accept it.
You should have known that a new Dragon Ball serie was inevitably going to change your understanding of Dragon Ball in some way. It's harder now because Super comes many years after the ending of the manga. Imagine if the "Z" portion of the serie came 20 years after the chapter where Goku spares Piccolo Jr's life: how many people would accept Goku's backstory as an alien? Though at this point that piece of information is seen by the almost every single fan (myself included) as one of the highlights of the serie. Making Goku an alien from a badass race of warriors is probably what made this franchise this successful, you can't deny it.

I think this is what people refer to as blind fanaticism. Just because its from Toriyama doesn't make it good, neither does it not being from him. There are certainly changes people are ok with and like, however not everyone is going to like the changes. That's the expectation. Why should people "like" something just because it came from Toriyama?

This just because it has akira name on it doesn't mean its good look at minus and rof most parts of the fanbase hated them.

[Ki Breaker]

This just because it has akira name on it doesn't mean its good look at minus and rof most parts of the fanbase hated them.

Not really, plenty like both, the version of rof which gets most hate is super's version and rightfully so..
I myself like both with the movie version of rof in consideration

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Retroactively changing your understanding isn't necessary a bad thing, as long as it's from Toriyama. Yes I need it to be from Toriyama because he is the original author, it's his world so whatever he does with it, like it or not, you have to accept it.
You should have known that a new Dragon Ball serie was inevitably going to change your understanding of Dragon Ball in some way. It's harder now because Super comes many years after the ending of the manga. Imagine if the "Z" portion of the serie came 20 years after the chapter where Goku spares Piccolo Jr's life: how many people would accept Goku's backstory as an alien? Though at this point that piece of information is seen by the almost every single fan (myself included) as one of the highlights of the serie. Making Goku an alien from a badass race of warriors is probably what made this franchise this successful, you can't deny it.

I think this is what people refer to as blind fanaticism. Just because its from Toriyama doesn't make it good, neither does it not being from him. There are certainly changes people are ok with and like, however not everyone is going to like the changes. That's the expectation. Why should people "like" something just because it came from Toriyama?

This just because it has akira name on it doesn't mean its good look at minus and rof most parts of the fanbase hated them.

ROF is like the most hated db movie along with Bio Broly to. This agrument really falls apart very fast and is completely invaild.

[pacz360]

This just because it has akira name on it doesn't mean its good look at minus and rof most parts of the fanbase hated them.

Not really, plenty like both, the version of rof which gets most hate is super's version and rightfully so..
I myself like both with the movie version of rof in consideration

Well i concede on the movie version it was at least enjoyable the anime version just....fucking terrible

[emperior]

I think this is what people refer to as blind fanaticism. Just because its from Toriyama doesn't make it good, neither does it not being from him. There are certainly changes people are ok with and like, however not everyone is going to like the changes. That's the expectation. Why should people "like" something just because it came from Toriyama?

This just because it has akira name on it doesn't mean its good look at minus and rof most parts of the fanbase hated them.

Or ROF, this agrument really falls apart very fast and is completely invaild.

You guys are totally missing my point. I will quote myself from my other post since it seems to have been overlooked:

I never said you have to like it, but you have to accept it. Which is different.

It's impossible for Toriyama to please all of the fanbase. Though I wouldn't like it if Toei started to change our understanding of the serie through Super (a serie which is being published as written by Toriyama as the continuation of his manga), writing things without the consent of Toriyama. I don't necessary like everything Toriyama does, or did, with Dragon Ball but I respect, and accept, what he does with his creation. Sure he could probably mess it up so much - in my view - that I could stop watching it (I'm sure some people stopped watching Super) but I would be happier to quit Dragon Ball Super after the original author messes it up rather than a 3rd party like Toei or Toyotaro (if he ever starts writing it without Toriyama's supervision)

I'm not some blind Toriyama fanboy and I don't think it's reasonable to be one.

[Kanassa]

I'm not some blind Toriyama fanboy and I don't think it's reasonable to be one.

That sounds like something a blind Toriyama fan boy would say!

[emperior]

I'm not some blind Toriyama fanboy and I don't think it's reasonable to be one.

That sounds like something a blind Toriyama fan boy would say!

You got me. I pray to his picture every morning and every evening.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Because Super is generally liked by people and that attracts those who like to defend the things they like no matter how nonsensical it appears to others and those who don't have much of a problem with consistency, but don't like all the negativity, that comes in power level debates.
There's probably also something about its blurry canon status, as now there is no manga straight from Toriyama to show, the "true" version of events, so they get to say the anime is the "true" version of events anyways and thus it must simply be defended even more vigorously.

/Thread.

Simple fact is Super liked by the large and vast majority and they are gonna defend some thing that they like. Don't know why people are gave out reasons more than this.

[Kassavo]

Because the cool character interactions and emotional moments are worth way more then power level consistencies on balance, so we judge the show on it's overall balance of merits.

We also realised early in that this show was going to be less consistent with this and while it's very mildly annoying we collectively decided not to go into each episode thread and whine about the same thing every single week in a selfish attempt to suck the joy and fun out of it ( having db back after 20 years) for everyone else.

We also realised no one from Toei reads these forums so complaining literally can't help, it can only kill other peoples buzz, and why would a civilised person do that?

robbed the thoughts straight out of my brain!

[HybridSaiyan]

Why are people talking as if GT had no good interactions? I enjoyed most of the interactions in GT. We had Gohan and pan moments, A solid Gohan and Piccolo moment, the whole baby ideal and how Goku showed concern when his friends were possessed. Honestly, you just bash on GT for the fun of it now.

[Asura]

Why are people talking as if GT had no good interactions? I enjoyed most of the interactions in GT. We had Gohan and pan moments, A solid Gohan and Piccolo moment, the whole baby ideal and how Goku showed concern when his friends were possessed. Honestly, you just bash on GT for the fun of it now.

I don't really see anyone bashing GT for not having good character interactions in this thread, but I think the character interactions between Goku and Pan are some of the best the entire series has to offer, and it definitely shows how mature Goku has become and how much he really cares about protecting and looking out for her. One thing I really like about GT is it shows that there is more to Goku than "WAKU WAKU I'm GETTING EXCITED LETS FIGHT" which is basically what Super Goku is non-stop. It gets really old after awhile.

[HybridSaiyan]

Why are people talking as if GT had no good interactions? I enjoyed most of the interactions in GT. We had Gohan and pan moments, A solid Gohan and Piccolo moment, the whole baby ideal and how Goku showed concern when his friends were possessed. Honestly, you just bash on GT for the fun of it now.

I don't really see anyone bashing GT for not having good character interactions in this thread, but I think the character interactions between Goku and Pan are some of the best the entire series has to offer, and it definitely shows how mature Goku has become and how much he really cares about protecting and looking out for her. One thing I really like about GT is it shows that there is more to Goku than "WAKU WAKU I'm GETTING EXCITED LETS FIGHT" which is basically what Super Goku is non-stop. It gets really old after awhile.

Yeah sorry, I was just talking in general haha. Although I agree with you there completely. GT SSJ4 Goku was shown more to be than just a battle hungry idiot. He had such a protective and manly side to his portrayal that I simply admire. His relationship with Pan digged deeply into the whole family bonding feel, and you could tell he loved his grandchild so much. The whole scenario with Ice shenron is a perfect example of a mature Goku who's willing to put his family ahead of his battles.

[Simere]

I'd be more than willing to go in depth on each and every one of these points (and have in the past), but I worry it would just come off as a personal attack if I keep doing it.

[...]

As much as I loathe the scaling debates, I find the fandom psychology behind it fascinating and want to learn more about it. That's why I keep coming back to discussions I theoretically don't even enjoy in the first place. But every time I do, people personally remind me why I shouldn't bother.

I don't want to listen to the podcast just yet, but in your Reddit post you talk about enjoying the emotional context. For me, power scaling is emotional. Goku getting stronger means a tremendous amount to me: the unabating fire that is his drive to keep striving, even as others around him stagnate and lose their own sparks. The purity of purpose and spirit with which he does it, no malice in his heart as he betters himself for the sake of bettering himself...whenever that's rewarded by surpassing his limits yet again...it means a lot. Every time.

Not having clear and consistent power scaling hurts that emotional payoff. Without the context of where they started from, and where they're at now, I can't appreciate how far they've come. Further, the payoff isn't as great if I feel their new heights are unearned or are (too) inexplicably gained. Further further:

Can you explain to me how that's a slap in the face to the original manga?

I just can't follow your logic, when you handwave precisely the same kinds of writing problems in the original (magic water and near-death powerups). "This isn't as bad as that." OK, but why? I need YOU to explain the WHY of that, the same way you need ME to explain the WHY of the Genki-Dama Sword working.

This is why I run up against constantly. People have made up their minds about their rules for internal consistency, and there's no budging. I can't converse with that. You make it so frustrating that I just give up bothering to explain my position. You're not interested in hearing it.

The phrase "slap in the face" is amusingly loaded for me, so I'd never say that. But I don't see how it can be denied that it cheapens things to some degree. Goku worked for the Genki Dama. He trained for it. As Hit!! said in earlier in the thread, Genki Dama is a technique, not something you wish really hard for and it happens. Or at least it was.

For Trunks to just be given what others had to work for...I was not emotionally satisfied by that. Sorry to anyone it bothers, but it was satisfying to me that his unearned powers weren't enough for him to ultimately prevail.

[dbs fanboy]

WTF is even happening here? what is this, fucking youtube?

I mean, people are pretty much calling each other out (i'm generalizing now) saying "well these people defend too much and it's unfair and biased" "oh and those people overexagerate too much" "y'all are just doing this to feel superior to everyone else "..... and blah, blah, blah. Seriously, on Kanzenshuu?

I'm really dissapointed of seeing things like this.

First off, super is a succesful show that a lot of people like, there are some that just like it because nostalgia, there may be some that only like it because they hate GT, but that doesn't give anyone here the right to start generalizing talking shit, saying that super is not hated or doesn't receive any criticism, because it does, it fucking does, you have people like Zeon who's a great reviewer, you have a lot of channels with videos like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_RpH9UCeP8
or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECf6JGnrVJw
and more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saV6wf7rdHg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5u0gir5bzA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17tNxs5Tn0o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7jO9ZDGGeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vxpXKFgoS8

Now read each comment section and you'll see what i'm talking about. For fuck sake, there are even times where people are just hating for the sake of hating or trying to make people hate the show, why am i saying this?, cause i have seen videos like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZgIBJwQY5I&t=20s

And then you have people who doesn't even know a single fuck of what are they talking about, and with these i'm talking about the people that take an in between shot and call it bad animation or people from this comment section https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RkD8r42fmk complaining because "it looks better than super" when it's the exact same piece of animation.

Now if we're using these logic of "why isn't anyone calling out super's flaws" then i ask "why isn't anyone from these people talking about the actual good stuff?". Super is liked by many people, but also hated as well, and i honestly think that this argument is pretty much weak, considering the amount of people here who critizice super's flaws, some of them are even super fans trying to be fair judging the series.


Now, power consistence it's important, we all know, that, but what's also true is that the impact or importance of these kind of things depend on other factors, and those factors are your own fucking criteria , not everyone is going to react in the same way, and we all have our reasons for expecting something or not, nobody here is like trying to "feel superior" because everyone here follows their own standards that could change any time in any god damn situation/moment.

Geeez people (not trying to offend anyone but seriously)

[Kanassa]

WTF is even happening here? what is this, fucking youtube?

You mean, it's not? On a serious note, I never got when anyone talks like youtube comment section is any worse. In my eyes, all boards of discussion and feedback from comments to forums are generally the same in regards to the range of insightfulness and childishness.

[dbs fanboy]

WTF is even happening here? what is this, fucking youtube?

You mean, it's not? On a serious note, I never got when anyone talks like youtube comment section is any worse. In my eyes, all boards of discussion and feedback from comments to forums are generally the same in regards to the range of insightfulness and childishness.

Yeah, but at least most of the time here i actually see some people critizicing both the good and the bad, in youtube most of the time either you completely praise it or completely hate it, and if the other disagrees, you hate him/her as well.

This really caught me off guard (and one of the reasons of why i came here was to hide from the comment section in youtube......)

[dbzfan7]

I don't remember anyone making these excuses for GT. "Why is base GT Goku so powerful?" "How could base GT Goku do things SSJ4 couldn't?" "How is SSJ4 Vegeta as strong as SSJ4 Goku?" No one really tried to rationalize these questions, most just admitted it didn't make sense and wasn't great writing, which is just what it boils down to. So why is it all of a sudden different for Super? It really feels like people are just way too lenient on Super sometimes, because they're afraid that if they criticize it, they might have another GT on their hands. I have never seen people make as many excuses for an anime series, valid or not, than I have with Super (Berserk 2016 is a close second, but Super is lightyears ahead of that pile of shit), and the question is why?

I find it odd probably because I was in the era where things like that, was all you had to say for GT. Heck you can compare so much of Super's shit outside of even power levels that was the same in GT, but for some reason it's now ok. I take it as maybe some fans grew up perhaps. Though it's odd how all of these moments were so harshly criticized in GT, but in Super people ask you to ignore it and it doesn't matter no more.

As Doctor pointed out. Power levels are not just for "Hur dur who is stronger strongest figthty fighter. Power levels are important to the story people whether you like it or not. It has to do with consistency. You can of course lobby for how consistent things are, but overall power levels are extremely important in the story itself. Otherwise tension and literally all investment would die out. So if someone magically pulls out a win, or someone not at all story portrayed is suddenly the one saving the day, it sucks people right out of the story.

It'd be like if you have Darkseid kicking the shit out of Superman, and then suddenly the condiment king just starts wailing on Darkseid and saving the world with his silly gadgets. Why would anyone buy into it? If it's supposed to be a parody or joke sure, but if the story wants to be taken seriously, it takes you right out of it. All stories have internal logic. The internal logic says Mr. Satan would not fight against powerful foes as he'd lose. But then what if he suddenly off screen or out of nowhere started handling people left and right? With the answer being he just trained or something.....it'd be hard to believe considering the characters typical bumbling nature, and we had no time to really adjust to such a new direction. Or in Goku's case, movie 13 where he pulls a magical dragon out of his ass. Where was this technique? Where'd it come from? Goku just got it and it looks cool ok?!

Not caring about blatant power level inconsistencies is now seen as the "cool" and "mature" thing for some Dragon Ball fans to do.

You will find a lot of said people on this website where some users really like to go against what they perceive casual fans to like about the show.

For example you'll have many posts calling Goku nothing but a dumbass martial arts hillbilly with zero depth while ignoring all his heroic traits in the manga all because more casual fans perceive Goku to be a straight up hero.

You will also find a lot of these users defending Gohan being given the hard shaft for so long making fans sound silly for wanting a character in an action, adventure, martial arts anime to participate in some action and do some martial arts by saying something like "Gohan's a scholar and has a family you should be happy for him if you only like him when he's punching people you were never a true Gohan fan"

This is basically a way for said users to feel a sense on superiority when comparing themselves with other Dragon Ball fans and that caring about power levels is beneath them and that they enjoy Dragon Ball on a superior level that lesser fans couldn't understand.

In order to do this they will even defend bad writing to the death just to achieve this warped sense of self-satisfaction.

They will never admit that with Dragon Ball Super's piss poor writing all sense of tension and suspense has reached an all time low for the series (this is a series named after wish granting balls for god's sake it's gotten that bad) this is because now characters can just 'get stronger' no explanation needed they just 'get stronger' and ascend to God tier power out of nowhere just because. While the manga at its worst had magic water and zenkai bargain sales.

And these fans will defend it with by saying stuff like "it was fun" and "haha this is gonna get Power Level fans so mad xD"

But DBS really has a strangely dedicated defence force, like some will never admit that Goten, Trunks and Marron not ageing a day since the series began and Future Trunks' hair being blue all of a sudden is just silly.

I agree with all of this entirely. Especially the whole users wanting to feel like superior fans. So much talk about how such talk is beneath such common sense, or you just don't understand the series so just have fun with it ok.

"Z did possibly something comparable so shut up." "Well GT also in the same logic did the same thing so..." "Shut up GT sucks."


Not sure where all this other talk about the recent movies being hated and stuff is coming from. The majority like Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. F probably has a more vocal disdain, but it's still in the minority. It's still rated commonly higher than most of the Z movies. I think Minus and Episode of Bardock are the only ones universally disliked for the most part.

[TheMikado]

I actually don't have much more to contribute to this conversation because it looks like the right conclusions have been reached. Different aspects of the franchise matter to different people, some more so than others and that's OK. But power consistency is a huge part of the story that drive the narrative forward and poor execution of that can affect other areas of the story you enjoy.

[MozillaVulpix]

Kind of agreeing with VegettoEX here. This isn't a discussion about the series; it's a discussion about a narrative over whether a series is getting the criticism some people think it deserves. Even though people here are clearly complaining about power level inconsistencies and many other people are very clearly agreeing with those criticisms. In terms of pure scale, I think I've seen more people complain about the power scale than people defending it. Maybe the people defending it have somewhat louder voices or bigger audiences, but that doesn't mean people disagreeing with those louder voices are any less indicative of the fans as a whole.

But if you want an actual answer: I think the fact the series isn't over has something to do with it. It's easy to criticise something when it's a complete product and you can understand reasoning behind why all the things that may be inconsistencies happened in the first place.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Heck you can compare so much of Super's shit outside of even power levels that was the same in GT, but for some reason it's now ok. I take it as maybe some fans grew up perhaps. Though it's odd how all of these moments were so harshly criticized in GT, but in Super people ask you to ignore it and it doesn't matter no more.

There's definitely truth to that. It's likely due to the fact that one comes with a complimentary Toriyama sticker and one doesn't. Additionally, when many argue against GT, they will excessively and instinctively parrot the ever-so popular phrases "Good ideas, bad execution" and "Pan is so annoying" and the like. Rare will you see anyone go into a deeper, worthwhile analysis of GT. To be more basic, I think the problem comes from the fact that many of only seen GT once, and quite a while ago (if at all). Secondly, you have these catch-all regurgitated phrases (mentioned above) that people can use as placeholders for actual analysis, whereas Super is new enough that it hasn't developed those yet.

Here's something funny that I noticed in my recent re-watch of GT: A lot of those old, notorious criticisms of GT are totally made up. The first one that comes to mind is the "Trunks injured by a car crash" complaint, which was quite a popular critique at one time (though luckily you don't hear it much anymore). However, if you've actually watched GT, you'd know that such an event never happened. What those who once argued that position were probably doing is echoing someone who misremembered the scene where Trunks was initially attacked by 17. That's not the only one, although it's certainly one of the more prominent faux-criticisms, to be fair.

I don't think we can deny that at the very least, people are far more biased against GT than Super