Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

It doesn't make sense for Base Gohan and Goku to be at the same level they were at during the Buu saga.

Basil was strong enough to kick around Buu and survive having his head bashed in. Lavender is probably at least as strong and Bergamo would be even stronger and Base Gohan and Goku were handling them just fine.

The preview shows Base Goku even fighting against Buu, possibly a stronger Buu. He might transform but then he might not.

Super Saiyan Goku was weaker than Good Buu in the Buu saga but he was stronger in the Zen Exhibition Tournament.

[ZombieVito]

It doesn't make sense for Base Gohan and Goku to be at the same level they were at during the Buu saga.

Basil was strong enough to kick around Buu and survive having his head bashed in. Lavender is probably at least as strong and Bergamo would be even stronger and Base Gohan and Goku were handling them just fine.

The preview shows Base Goku even fighting against Buu, possibly a stronger Buu. He might transform but then he might not.

Super Saiyan Goku was weaker than Good Buu in the Buu saga but he was stronger in the Zen Exhibition Tournament.

If Boo isn't serious then anyone can kick him around and you are forgetting that Basil eat that strange fruit. We don't know how strong that fruit made him.

Indeed Goku is fighting in base but we don't know if Boo is serious or not. Let's wait for the episode but if Goku turns Super Saiyan and fights evenly with a more serious Boo then that would confirmed things once and for all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't Future Trunks said when attacking SSJ3 Goku that he was going to use his full power? That would mean he pushed Goku while suppressed. That plus his training with Vegeta and powering up by rage on episode 57 should make base F.Trunks > SSJ kid Trunks possible me thinks.

Rage Boosts aren't permanent (if he even got one, the reason he did so well against Black may be because he caught him off guard & Black didn't expect him to appear), and I don't think his training with Vegeta increased his power much. I can't see a realistic scenario with a base Saiyan surpassing a Super Saiyan without Ultimate or SSG power.

It doesn't make sense for Base Gohan and Goku to be at the same level they were at during the Buu saga.

Basil was strong enough to kick around Buu and survive having his head bashed in. Lavender is probably at least as strong and Bergamo would be even stronger and Base Gohan and Goku were handling them just fine.

Boo was holding back. He was showing more & more power as the fight went on, and Basil was never a real threat to him.

The preview shows Base Goku even fighting against Buu, possibly a stronger Buu. He might transform but then he might not.

Super Saiyan Goku was weaker than Good Buu in the Buu saga but he was stronger in the Zen Exhibition Tournament.

Wait for the next episode to come out before coming to conclusions.

[ZombieVito]

Didn't Future Trunks said when attacking SSJ3 Goku that he was going to use his full power? That would mean he pushed Goku while suppressed. That plus his training with Vegeta and powering up by rage on episode 57 should make base F.Trunks > SSJ kid Trunks possible me thinks.

Rage Boosts aren't permanent (if he even got one, the reason he did so well against Black may be because he caught him off guard & Black didn't expect him to appear), and I don't think his training with Vegeta increased his power much. I can't see a realistic scenario with a base Saiyan surpassing a Super Saiyan without Ultimate or SSG power.

Black sure as hell implied they are in episode 64 and if they aren't then how did Goku catch up to Vegeta so fast?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't Future Trunks said when attacking SSJ3 Goku that he was going to use his full power? That would mean he pushed Goku while suppressed. That plus his training with Vegeta and powering up by rage on episode 57 should make base F.Trunks > SSJ kid Trunks possible me thinks.

Rage Boosts aren't permanent (if he even got one, the reason he did so well against Black may be because he caught him off guard & Black didn't expect him to appear), and I don't think his training with Vegeta increased his power much. I can't see a realistic scenario with a base Saiyan surpassing a Super Saiyan without Ultimate or SSG power.

Black sure as hell implied they are in episode 64 and if they aren't then how did Goku catch up to Vegeta so fast?

Black wasn't talking about rage boosts, he was talking about the power of rage but not in the meaning of rage boosts. It was through his rage that Vegeta became so much stronger through training, and it was through his rage that Black discovered his new technique. Goku simply caught up to Vegeta after the arc ended through training.

[Hugo Boss]

This episode gave me the impression the anime will try to avoid power consistency in order to develop the strategy part of the tournament. Personally, I'm a bit surprised they were that audacious, but I like it. It entertains me more than strictly calculated power comparisons. No. 18 personified the part of me that cared about powerlevels, but once she realized it doesn't have to be one-on-one anymore she gave up her preconceptions and engaged along with Krillin. Go for it, Super.

[Marlowe89]

Wait for the next episode to come out before coming to conclusions.

This is basically what I've been stressing. There's almost a clear pattern in the show here - Goku tends to get pushed to the point that he resorts to a transformation almost every time we see him fight, so we needn't hold to the assumption that he won't do the same against Buu. He might not ever become a Super Saiyan during the next episode, but it wouldn't be shocking in the slightest if he does.

And really, we can't seriously use the Trio de Dangers as a means of comparing these characters. The only time the dialogue compares the brothers is when Bergamo is called the "strongest" in his universe, and that statement could have been attributed entirely to his special ability as opposed to his base strength. Their power could be roughly equal if we don't account for the "tricks" they were known for and it wouldn't outright contradict anything.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Kuririn's power in Super:
Personally, I believe that Kuririn (along with Tenshinhan & Yamcha) came close to the base Saiyans back when they all trained for the Artificial Humans (and not weaker than 2nd Form Freeza as many believe). This episode proves this, as it shows that Kuririn is weaker than base Goku & Gohan, but strong enough to overpower them with tricks, as Goku was forced to use Super Saiyan. The reason he used Super Saiyan Blue appears to be because he wanted to see what Kuririn would do against a powerful opponent so he went all out, but he was clearly holding back a lot when he used the Kamehameha.

Gohan's power in Super:
Gohan was clearly Ultimate Gohan in BoG arc, and clearly wasn't in FnF arc due to his lack of training. He expected Tagoma, who was still suppressing his power, to be at the same level as his in his base at full power, but it turned out that Tagoma was stronger than Piccolo, and Ginyu showed Tagoma's full power was even greater than that. Gohan tried to draw out his Ultimate power against Ginyu-Tagoma, but was unable to do so, which is why he went Super Saiyan to easily overpower him. He briefly started training with Piccolo after that, but soon stopped once again. Gohan seems to be currently at the same level he was in Boo arc before he became Ultimate except he can't use Super Saiyan 2 & rage boosts, but will soon become Ultimate Gohan once again.

Goku's power in Super:
In BoG, it looks like he is still at around the same level as he was in Boo arc. After he became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power, his base & Super Saiyan forms became about as strong as Super Saiyan God, and through further training with Whis his Super Saiyan form became Super Saiyan Blue, since Super Saiyan Blue is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. After even more training with Vegeta inside the Room of Spirit and Time, they learned how to control the power of SSG, so they didn't use it in the tournament against Universe 6 (which is why their SS form is golden & not blue), but they obviously used it in the incident against Copy-Vegeta, as base Copy-Vegeta (who is exactly as strong as Vegeta) was much stronger that SS3 Gotenks, and base Goku was equal with him. He also didn't use the power of SSG at any point in the Future Trunks arc, but Goku Black was using the power of SSG which is why he was so strong in his base form. Yes, the two base theory is a thing so get over it already. Seems like the two base theory really is a thing, or everything falls apart. Besides, Super Saiyan Blue by its definition always confirmed it (and every time we see Goku, Vegeta, Copy-Vegeta, and Goku Black being super-powerful in their base forms, the only transformation they use is Super Saiyan Blue/Rosé... coincidence?).


So, the mortals so far that have reached the level of gods (Hakaishin & Angels, the Kamis, Kaios, and Kaioshins are all weak flies to them) are these:

Universe 6
Hit

Universe 7
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto
Super Saiyan God/Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Final Form/Golden Freeza

Universe 10
Merged Zamasu
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black

Universe 11
Jiren
Toppo


Goku & Vegeta in ther regular base, SS, SS2, and SS3 forms are a little stronger than they were in Boo arc, and everyone else (Gohan, Piccolo, base/SS/SS2 Future Trunks, Kuririn, Cabba, Frost, Present/Future Zamasu, etc) all fall somewhere between them, but they are nowhere near SSG level.


This last episode made things very clear, and it's been a long time since I took the anime seriously as far as battle powers are concerned. Now my faith to the anime is finally restored.

Excellent post.

So you think base Goku and Vegeta are just moderately stronger than their Boo arc self's without the power of Super Saiyan God? What do you make of Future Trunks battle with Super Saiyan Kid Trunks? Maybe Future Trunks is still getting Zenkai's so he became way stronger than Goku and Vegeta on equal forms? Maybe the kids aren't as strong as we thought.

Also, should't Future Zamasu also be god tier?

I agree with all of this. Krillin is still weaker than Android #18 who is weaker than Base Gohan, who is approximately Base Goku. I am really liking the following idea: pre-BOG Goku just had Base/SS1/SS2/SS3 and Vegeta just had Base/SS1/SS2. During BOG Vegeta has Base/SS1/SS2 Mutation and Goku goes into SSG, but it is absorbed and he has Base SSG. Vegeta goes to train with Whis and he unlocks SSG, which merges with him too. Goku and Vegeta have only Base SSG form. They then practice ki control and reach the new level of SSB, so when they fight Frieza they have Base SSG/SSB. Then during the three years of training before U6, they learn to better control their ki even more and learn suppression so Goku gets Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Base SSG/SSB and Vegeta has Base/SS1/SS2 Mutation/Base SSG/SSB.

The Two-Base Theory seems to fit things together well. I have been treating SS Beyond God as Semi-Merged Super Saiyan God and SBG as Merged Super Saiyan God (It orients things better to think of it this way; otherwise, we would have a Base form stronger than a Super Saiyan form). It's almost like ... in normal instances a Saiyan drops SSG and becomes Base. Goku dropped SSG and was SS because he was in it during the ritual, as the crew used SS to focus. He then dropped SS during the sun ball attack and used the last of his power to defeat the attack. This fully merged the SSG into his Base. He didn't get god ki because SS and Base forms do not have god ki, so the Merged Super Saiyan God form didn't have god ki.

Hit, SSG Goku, SMSSG Goku, MSSG Goku, MSSG Vegeta, SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSBKK Goku, Toppo, Jiren, Bergamo (with a lot of Goku's power), MSSG Copy-Vegeta, SSB Copy-Vegeta, MSSG Vegito, SSB Vegito, MSSG Goku Black, SSRose Goku Black, SSRage Trunks, Spirit Bomb Sword Trunks, Merged Zamasu, Final Form Frieza (After Training), and Golden Frieza are all around Hakaishin level.

I believe Goku Black was using the Base SSG form ever since we met him; however, he was unable to access the full power yet. It took him some time and getting used to the body before he reached the full Base SSG power. That was when he was getting tanked by SSB Vegeta the first time. He then could unlock SSB, but since he was a Kaioshin mixed with Goku the color became Rose. After harnessing his frustration (a better word for it), Vegeta trained and got stronger in the RoSaT, and Goku and Trunks caught up from Zenkais fighting Goku Black (no, zenkais were never gone). Goku Black also harnessed his frustration and improved from it using the scythe.

Future Zamasu was doing so well against SSB Goku because of his immortality. SS2 Trunks was able to defeat him, and would have killed him if it were not for his immortality. We know that SS2 Future Trunks is around the power of SS2 Goku, who outmatched Present Zamasu. There is an issue with Trunks' power level during Ep. 57, though. It shouldn't be that high, so I assumed that Trunks used the SS2 Improved (basically, Super Saiyan Grade 7) that manga Trunks used against SS3 Goku. Manga Goku had to use SSG for a moment to beat Trunks, so that fixes the powerscaling on that. We can say that Trunks got this SS2 Improved during off-screen training with Vegeta, or even a Zenkai from the training with Vegeta. So I'd say, as of Ep. 57, SSRose Goku Black is stronger than SSBlue Goku, who is stronger than SS2 Improved Trunks, who is stronger than Future Zamasu, who is stronger than SS2 Goku, who is stronger than Present Zamasu. Also, yeah, SS Kid Trunks is probably stronger than Base Future Trunks. We can assume this since we never saw it.

[MasterVampire]

This latest episode made this thread even more toxic

[pacz360]

Didn't Future Trunks said when attacking SSJ3 Goku that he was going to use his full power? That would mean he pushed Goku while suppressed. That plus his training with Vegeta and powering up by rage on episode 57 should make base F.Trunks > SSJ kid Trunks possible me thinks.

Rage Boosts aren't permanent (if he even got one, the reason he did so well against Black may be because he caught him off guard & Black didn't expect him to appear), and I don't think his training with Vegeta increased his power much. I can't see a realistic scenario with a base Saiyan surpassing a Super Saiyan without Ultimate or SSG power.

It doesn't make sense for Base Gohan and Goku to be at the same level they were at during the Buu saga.

Basil was strong enough to kick around Buu and survive having his head bashed in. Lavender is probably at least as strong and Bergamo would be even stronger and Base Gohan and Goku were handling them just fine.

Boo was holding back. He was showing more & more power as the fight went on, and Basil was never a real threat to him.

The preview shows Base Goku even fighting against Buu, possibly a stronger Buu. He might transform but then he might not.

Super Saiyan Goku was weaker than Good Buu in the Buu saga but he was stronger in the Zen Exhibition Tournament.

Wait for the next episode to come out before coming to conclusions.

Buu had to resort to using a full power Kamehameha to put basil down even then basil survived it and was willing to continue hadn't for the drug wearing off and lack of stamina
Buu even mention Basil was strong
If he wasn't buu would've gave him the same treatment like he did before he took the drug.

[Bullza]

What do people make of Android 18's comment in both the Resurrection F movie and saga where she says

"I'll come too. My battle power is much higher than you guys."

Wouldn't that imply she was more powerful than Base Gohan but even Piccolo as well? She definitely shouldn't be stronger than Piccolo but some things do seem as though as he was nerfed.

Also Krillin did seem concerned about Frieza showing up and wondered if he'd be killed again so yeah he should be weaker than Frieza on Namek.

[ZombieVito]

What do people make of Android 18's comment in both the Resurrection F movie and saga where she says

"I'll come too. My battle power is much higher than you guys."

Wouldn't that imply she was more powerful than Base Gohan but even Piccolo as well? She definitely shouldn't be stronger than Piccolo but some things do seem as though as he was nerfed.

Also Krillin did seem concerned about Frieza showing up and wondered if he'd be killed again so yeah he should be weaker than Frieza on Namek.

Not a single thing implies Piccolo got nerfed.

[Bullza]

Not a single thing implies Piccolo got nerfed.

He struggled with a punk like Shisami in the movie who wouldn't even be as strong as Frieza in his First Form upon his revival when he was even weaker than he was on Namek.

He's weaker than Base Gohan and it depends how strong he is if Android 18 said she's stronger than "you guys".

[pacz360]

What do people make of Android 18's comment in both the Resurrection F movie and saga where she says

"I'll come too. My battle power is much higher than you guys."

Wouldn't that imply she was more powerful than Base Gohan but even Piccolo as well? She definitely shouldn't be stronger than Piccolo but some things do seem as though as he was nerfed.

Also Krillin did seem concerned about Frieza showing up and wondered if he'd be killed again so yeah he should be weaker than Frieza on Namek.

Not a single thing implies Piccolo got nerfed.

Exactly They all sensed how powerful freeza was way different than before
And nothing implies piccolo was nerfed unless you think she's stronger than ssj gohan which we know is bullshit let alone piccolo.

[pacz360]

Not a single thing implies Piccolo got nerfed.

He struggled with a punk like Shisami in the movie who wouldn't even be as strong as Frieza in his First Form upon his revival when he was even weaker than he was on Namek.

He's weaker than Base Gohan and it depends how strong he is if Android 18 said she's stronger than "you guys".

Nothing he really says he was nerfed if anything shisami was freeza training partner in the movie version while tagoma was in the super version
Plus nothing implies gotten weaker at all he's not gohan here.

[HybridSaiyan]

ROF...we don't talk about power levels in that movie...

[ZombieVito]

Not a single thing implies Piccolo got nerfed.

He struggled with a punk like Shisami in the movie who wouldn't even be as strong as Frieza in his First Form upon his revival when he was even weaker than he was on Namek.

He's weaker than Base Gohan and it depends how strong he is if Android 18 said she's stronger than "you guys".

Shisami was not compared to Zarbon and Dodoria in Toriyama's script or the promo manga. Even if you discard that, we don't know if he trained or not after Freeza's revival. Thankfully he didn't do anything inconsistent in Super either way.

Everything points to Gohan not having Ultimate form at all, so his base is not stronger than Piccolo.

If we take 18 on his word then she's stronger than Boo since she never specified who she meant with "you guys". It's obvious she meant the humans.

I don't think there's been a single instance in the entire history of Dragon Ball where a character gets weaker even when he trains.

[Bullza]

Nothing he really says he was nerfed if anything shisami was freeza training partner in the movie version while tagoma was in the super version

Nothing implied Shisami was Frieza's training partner either.

Frieza was resurrected, he wasn't as strong as he was on Namek but he was still far stronger than Tagoma and Shisami. Piccolo struggled against Shisami.

Even in that movie Frieza pointed out that Gohan, not Piccolo, could wipe out the entire army in an instant if he really wanted to.

Then in the series Sorbet went and said that Tagoma had surpassed the Ginyu Force. Not King Cold or Frieza before his training, just the Ginyu Force and Tagoma beat the tar out of Piccolo.

[quote="ZombieVito]Everything points to Gohan not having Ultimate form at all, so his base is not stronger than Piccolo.[/quote]

The Ultimate power up isn't a form. Elder Kai just brought out all his potential. He stopped training and his strength decreased considerably but it didn't decrease to the extent he was inferior to Piccolo.

Tagoma didn't even have to block Piccolo's punch. He did block Gohan's though even after he powered up more.

[ZombieVito]

Ultimate is definitely a form in Super.

[DBZ Macky]

Shisami and Tagoma aren't the problem here. If Freeza was able to improve so much then why not them? The real problem is characters like Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo. If they could really attain God-tier strength or even SS3 tier just by training a bit, then why didn't they do so in the Cell arc or the Buu arc?