Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

[emperior]

Super in a way has no where else to go with their power. The problem was they went at it the wrong way. Instead of bringing gods, angels and all kinds of ridiculous statements about their power. What they should of done was work with ssj3 a little longer and have a much slower progression. Em

There are no new toys to sell if you keep it at Super Saiyan 3 (especially with how much Heroes don't give a fuuuuuuuuuuck about what everyone else is doing), and you're going to lose the younger audience if you stagnate with a slower progression.

Remember, this series isn't for us: it's for the kids, and if we happen to like it as well, that's cool.

The target audience is kids but that doesn't mean they shouldn't put effort into pleasing the older fans, considering there are still many out there. They can also make SSJ3 Vegeta toys without him actually ever going SSJ3 and the kids would still buy them. They also don't necessarily need new transformations to make toys, look at Pokèmon for example.

By the way, do Dragon Ball toys really sell that much?

[TheMikado]

Super in a way has no where else to go with their power. The problem was they went at it the wrong way. Instead of bringing gods, angels and all kinds of ridiculous statements about their power. What they should of done was work with ssj3 a little longer and have a much slower progression. Em

There are no new toys to sell if you keep it at Super Saiyan 3 (especially with how much Heroes don't give a fuuuuuuuuuuck about what everyone else is doing), and you're going to lose the younger audience if you stagnate with a slower progression.

Remember, this series isn't for us: it's for the kids, and if we happen to like it as well, that's cool.

The target audience is kids but that doesn't mean they shouldn't put effort into pleasing the older fans, considering there are still many out there. They can also make SSJ3 Vegeta toys without him actually ever going SSJ3 and the kids would still buy them. They also don't necessarily need new transformations to make toys, look at Pokèmon for example.

By the way, do Dragon Ball toys really sell that much?

The kid argument isn't even really valid, my 8 year old cousin hates it because it makes no sense. He would rather watch Ben ten because he knows what each alien can do and what they are weak against, same with Pokémon. Kids aren't idiots, Pokémon is complex in the use of attributes, individual level, abilities, and evolutions.

Example, A 8 year old understands that a level 10 water Pokémon has an edge over a level 10 fire Pokémon. Furthermore they understand the effects of something like slash or stun. In addition they understand a level 10 charmander and a level 10 charlizard are not equal as one has higher base stats. But a level 100 charmander would have an edge. They understand scaling, strategy, training, etc. the excuse of this being a kids show is bogus unless it's for 2 year olds. All DB has to do is keep a consistent hierarchy of who is stronger and make feats scale accordingly and they can't even do that in Super.

[VegettoEX]

OK but Pikachu beat Lt. Surge and here we are approximately eight hundred episodes later. Justify that.

[Luso Saiyan]

Are you confusing the anime with the manga? What realization?

No. The realization he explains in his speech against Black during their fight.

[Xiao Long Li]

OK but Pikachu beat Lt. Surge and here we are approximately eight hundred episodes later. Justify that.

Pikachu outsped Raichu rather than trying to beat it with just raw strength, because Matis/Surge was a brute who evolved his Pikachu before it could learn any of the speed-boosting moves that it can only learn as a Pikachu, which was a strategy that was explained in the episode.

Granted the Pocket Monsters example is a bit of a badly-explained example since it's not supposed to be a 1:1 adaptation of the games (thus you can't explain it in "stats" or numerical RPG levels) and is a separate universe of its own, and the power-scaling hasn't been consistent since the DP series. Either way, One Piece would have been a better comparison as it's more popular than Dragon Ball in Japan, aimed at the same age group, nearing 800 episodes still on-going, and not needing so many transformations to keep an interesting sense of progression in its series scale of power.

[Simere]

Are you confusing the anime with the manga? What realization?

No. The realization he explains in his speech against Black during their fight.

That was gloating, not a realization. He didn't say "You're not a true Saiyan, which means you can't do <whatever>" and exploited some flaw in his technique. He was beating him because he became more powerful than him training in the RoSaT, plain and simple.

[GodVegetto91]

I agree. Kids aren't stupid. Even as a kid i already cared heavily about powerscaling. "Everything is numbers, number rules all" — Pythagoras

[Lord Frieza]

Yes because numbers mean everything in life. Everything we value can be mathematically calculated. People dont make choices or mistakes and life is 100% fair.

And when fighting with his best friend Goku would defiantly use his full power to try and kill him because numbers .

[WittyUsername]

And when fighting with his best friend Goku would defiantly use his full power to try and kill him because numbers .

The problem with that argument is that Goku went Super Saiyan Blue during the sparring match. If his goal was to hold back, why would he transform like that in the first place? Giving Kuririn a confidence boost wouldn't even make sense as an explanation, since Kuririn already knows how horribly outclassed he is compared to Goku.

[Israelite Wolfman]

Sorbet losing his mind over Tagoma being over the Ginyu Force after he one shotted (off-guard) Shisami & Gohan made me realize the writers really suck in terms of understanding power levels as (most) fans do. The Ginyu Force stopped being a meance the same day they landed and were killed on Planet Namek, about 17 years before Resurrection 'F' took place, so this phrase makes no sense towards a person who is in the higher Buu Saga tier that is in the range of hundred millions to a few billions (base Gohan, Tagoma - who's equal to his maximum at base form, SSJ Gotenks).

Edit: link to support this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzr5vj3gItk

[Lord Frieza]

And when fighting with his best friend Goku would defiantly use his full power to try and kill him because numbers .

The problem with that argument is that Goku went Super Saiyan Blue during the sparring match. If his goal was to hold back, why would he transform like that in the first place? Giving Kuririn a confidence boost wouldn't even make sense as an explanation, since Kuririn already knows how horribly outclassed he is compared to Goku.

Easy because Toei need to keep marketing for no reason. Again proving numbers not matter because they make an illogical choice.

[Luso Saiyan]

The problem with that argument is that Goku went Super Saiyan Blue during the sparring match.

So that Krillin can feel and overcome the pressure the form puts him under. The same pressure he will have to face in the tournament from others. Seriously, even when they spelled out the character's feelings in the dialogue people still question things...

That was gloating, not a realization.

No. Gloating was the whole "saiyajin no oji" part. Everything else was him explaining to Black the realization he made, as the dialogue itself shows.

[Lord Frieza]

And when fighting with his best friend Goku would defiantly use his full power to try and kill him because numbers .

The problem with that argument is that Goku went Super Saiyan Blue during the sparring match. If his goal was to hold back, why would he transform like that in the first place? Giving Kuririn a confidence boost wouldn't even make sense as an explanation, since Kuririn already knows how horribly outclassed he is compared to Goku.

And there is this augment to, thank you.

[Yomi]

I kinda like the new approach to powers scalling, before it was like "Your power level is like a couple thousand lower than the others, you are completely useless trash now, to the heap with you" I like that techniques have been becoming more gimmicky and unique. Like hit's time-skip/kamui, the trio of dangers etc, and I like that they're bringing back old characters simply for their tactics and techniques not just RAW SAIYAN POWAAAAAHHHH!!!.

[dbgtFO]

So we can determine who is stronger than who based on the outcome, but we can't determine Vegeta is stronger than Goku, even though the outcome of Goku vs Black was a win for Black(thus Goku < Black) as opposed to Vegeta beating Black in their rematch (thus Black < Vegeta and hence Goku < Vegeta too).

Rock beats scissors.

Scissors beats paper.

Following your flawed logic, rock beats paper.

With enough strength, it certainly will.
But no. Wrong series. That works for Pokemon as has already been brought up with their type weaknesses and stuff.

You posted it yourself, which you of course conveniently ignored in your reply to me:

The point is that we do know who is stronger and who is weaker due to the outcome, which is what you were arguing against.

So the outcome determines, who is stronger than who... Black beat Goku, so he's stronger than him according to you, Vegeta then beat Black, so he became stronger than Black(confirmed in the episode and the following), again because the outcome shows so.
If a has more strength than b and b has more strength than c, then a also has more strength than b, simple Dragon Ball logic, as has always been the case(power levels and what not).

Nonsense indeed, but not from me.

I suppose there are those, who are too caught up in their own delusions, they can't have any objective view of themselves whatsoever.

[Simere]

No. Gloating was the whole "saiyajin no oji" part. Everything else was him explaining to Black the realization he made, as the dialogue itself shows.

There was nothing else. Oh, wait...I'm sorry, you're right:

Black: Why is there such a difference in strength?
Vegeta: Would you like to know? It's because I'm the Saiyan prince...Vegeta-sama! That's why!

Yes, an astounding revelation indeed. Being the fighting genius that he is, I'm sure he must have figured that out quickly and just spent most his time refining the technique.

"I am Vegeta..."
"I am Vegeta."
I AM Vegeta."
"I AM VEGETA."
"I AM VEGETA!"
"I AM VEGETA-SAMA!"

[Luso Saiyan]

With enough strength, it certainly will.

Huh?!

But no. Wrong series. That works for Pokemon as has already been brought up with their type weaknesses and stuff.

No, it has nothing to do with Pokémon. It has to do with basic logic. My analogy is merely an example that exposes your fallacy.

So the outcome determines, who is stronger than who... Black beat Goku, so he's stronger than him according to you, Vegeta then beat Black, so he became stronger than Black(confirmed in the episode and the following), again because the outcome shows so.

Yes. Nothing to do with Vegeta vs Goku.

If a has more strength than b and b has more strength than c, then a also has more strength than b, simple Dragon Ball logic,

No, that's not Dragon Ball (or any other kind of) logic. Your conclusion is not supported by your premises as I've already proved.

as has always been the case(power levels and what not).

Power levels are not a reliable measure of strength or power. That's why they were dropped to begin with.

I suppose there are those, who are too caught up in their own delusions, they can't have any objective view of themselves whatsoever.

Definitely (can't help but notice the irony).

[TheMikado]

OK but Pikachu beat Lt. Surge and here we are approximately eight hundred episodes later. Justify that.

Pikachu outsped Raichu rather than trying to beat it with just raw strength, because Matis/Surge was a brute who evolved his Pikachu before it could learn any of the speed-boosting moves that it can only learn as a Pikachu, which was a strategy that was explained in the episode.

Granted the Pocket Monsters example is a bit of a badly-explained example since it's not supposed to be a 1:1 adaptation of the games (thus you can't explain it in "stats" or numerical RPG levels) and is a separate universe of its own, and the power-scaling hasn't been consistent since the DP series. Either way, One Piece would have been a better comparison as it's more popular than Dragon Ball in Japan, aimed at the same age group, nearing 800 episodes still on-going, and not needing so many transformations to keep an interesting sense of progression in its series scale of power.

Thank you, finally. This was inadvertently a perfect example. In DB universe everything scales linearly. If you're stronger you're also faster and have bigger ki blasts. They exceptions being grade 3. DB use to have the better defines traits like Pokémon but at a certain point it was all lazily thrown into a general power tier level. Super took that trend and really inflated it for no reason.
The example above was so excellent, it shows the proper way to emphasize proper training technique and planning. In this example DB has become Raichu, literally brute strengthing their way through plot point by emphasizing straight power. As I stated, the latest power inflation took it to a realm of no return for someone like Roshi.

But anyway this example was Soooooooo good!!!

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, I think the general idea of the thread misses some crucial points.

I defend the anime's inconsistencies greatly. Why?

Because the people who go about deconstructing and criticizing them never do so with any regard to the feelings of others, always with insults, bile, and general negativity. Basically, if you can calmly and constructively explain your grievances without coming off as overly hateful, you got a good point.

Otherwise, we defenders will fight back with teeth and claws.

I hope you guys understand, I'm not forgiving the inconsistencies. I'm defending the obligation of the fan criticizing them to do so with respect for the show and others' opinions.

[dbzfan7]

The thing is most of those arguments, are completely ignored. Can't even recall the number of "Did you know Goku likely held back?" comments. Yes people literally knew that...and yet that point is repeated like some users are idiots who never thought of that. No shit they know, and it's normally not their main point, but for some reason there is a need to keep bringing that up.