Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:41 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:The thing is most of those arguments, are completely ignored. Can't even recall the number of "Did you know Goku likely held back?" comments. Yes people literally knew that...and yet that point is repeated like some users are idiots who never thought of that. No shit they know, and it's normally not their main point, but for some reason there is a need to keep bringing that up.
Well, they wouldn't repeat that stuff if they thought that the opposition actually accepted that answer as valid and/or reasonable, which it is.

As well, it'd help if said opposition was willing to at least hear out rationalizations and not come off as a bunch of know-it-all whiners and/or entitled elitists.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5075
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:42 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:If a has more strength than b and b has more strength than c, then a also has more strength than b, simple Dragon Ball logic,
No, that's not Dragon Ball (or any other kind of) logic. Your conclusion is not supported by your premises as I've already proved.
Pure strength is not like rock-scissors-paper. Perhaps you may want to check several lines from this thread, like the one below.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

That's not entering the merit of Goku being better than Vegeta or maybe Black. Strength is not the only factor to determine a fight's outcome.

User avatar
dbzfan7
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13045
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:55 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:The thing is most of those arguments, are completely ignored. Can't even recall the number of "Did you know Goku likely held back?" comments. Yes people literally knew that...and yet that point is repeated like some users are idiots who never thought of that. No shit they know, and it's normally not their main point, but for some reason there is a need to keep bringing that up.
Well, they wouldn't repeat that stuff if they thought that the opposition actually accepted that answer as valid and/or reasonable, which it is.

As well, it'd help if said opposition was willing to at least hear out rationalizations and not come off as a bunch of know-it-all whiners and/or entitled elitists.
No it's repeated like "Dur did you think of that?" Even though everyone pretty much accepts that answer on a basic level, but that doesn't cover the entire problem people have at all. I don't think anyone is saying that isn't the case. They're saying there's far more to it than that. That's why people start arguments.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:12 pm

Has anyone ever tried........... just NOT starting an argument?

When I say argument, I mean an emotionally charged debate that does neither side any good, as neither side is willing to budge from their position, and neither side is going about things in a calm and rational manner.

That's really the crux of the issues with the Kanzenshuu fan base for the current anime. People don't respect others' criticisms and rationalizations, and there's too much malice and poor etiquette to properly debate.

Yeah yea, it's really cheesy to say that we should all try to get along, but I genuinely believe that doing so would at least solve the issue of these forums breeding narrow-minded elitism.

User avatar
Kanassa
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6265
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:57 am

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Kanassa » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:22 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Has anyone ever tried........... just NOT starting an argument?
That's my bread and butter though, man! And I especially do so while ironically playing ''Why can't we be friends?'' in the background :D
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

User avatar
dbzfan7
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13045
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:55 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by dbzfan7 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:41 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Has anyone ever tried........... just NOT starting an argument?

When I say argument, I mean an emotionally charged debate that does neither side any good, as neither side is willing to budge from their position, and neither side is going about things in a calm and rational manner.

That's really the crux of the issues with the Kanzenshuu fan base for the current anime. People don't respect others' criticisms and rationalizations, and there's too much malice and poor etiquette to properly debate.

Yeah yea, it's really cheesy to say that we should all try to get along, but I genuinely believe that doing so would at least solve the issue of these forums breeding narrow-minded elitism.
Mainly it starts as people just do not like negativity of any kind....unless they hate that thing too. Then it's ok. I personally don't give a crap if people love or hate something, so long as they don't shove it down my throat. You can hate what I like or like what I hate. Though people have a tendency of wanting to tell others what to think. Whether they are pro or against.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Simere » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:52 pm

You can't get a forum to change by saying "please be nice". Only enforcement through moderation will change it. Backseat moderating doesn't help.

I don't have a problem with the tenor of the discussions on this site. A few flare ups here and there, but that's fine. I thought the discussion in this thread was going quite well until Luso Saiyan entered the thread and started line-by-line quote arguments.

User avatar
Asura
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Asura » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:01 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Has anyone ever tried........... just NOT starting an argument?

When I say argument, I mean an emotionally charged debate that does neither side any good, as neither side is willing to budge from their position, and neither side is going about things in a calm and rational manner.

That's really the crux of the issues with the Kanzenshuu fan base for the current anime. People don't respect others' criticisms and rationalizations, and there's too much malice and poor etiquette to properly debate.

Yeah yea, it's really cheesy to say that we should all try to get along, but I genuinely believe that doing so would at least solve the issue of these forums breeding narrow-minded elitism.
Who the hell gets emotionally charged in the debates here? I mean, I'm sure people do, I just question why?

Dragon Ball is nothing more than a collection of fast moving Mongolian cave drawings created by a Mongol war leader famous for his gags. Who would get emotional about such a thing?

No but in all seriousness, people might get frustrated during an argument, but thats what arguments are. It's not always sunshine and rainbows. I mean, do I think the other person is an idiot for not seeing my point of view? ...Yes.

Kidding again, but I hope no one actually gets so emotionally invested about an argument over a children's show. It's fun to argue and debate, but people just need to remember what it is they're debating about. The most emotionally involved I get is trying to argue with someone who's hard-headed and just won't come around to see your point of view. But then again, that could be me too. I guess that's just the beauty of these debates, both sides wind up looking like stubborn idiots and nothing would have changed anyway. But it's all fun and games, as long as you treat it that way... :D

User avatar
Saturnine
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:02 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
Well, Dragon Ball does need Toriyama to maintain its feel. If you leave Toei to their own devices, you end up with a one-dimensional simplification of the series for Paraguayan machos, where there's only screaming, muscles, derivativeness and tons of circle jerk references to previous Toei material at the cost of timeline consistency.

User avatar
Simere
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Simere » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:32 am

Saturnine wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
Well, Dragon Ball does need Toriyama to maintain its feel. If you leave Toei to their own devices, you end up with a one-dimensional simplification of the series for Paraguayan machos, where there's only screaming, muscles, derivativeness and tons of circle jerk references to previous Toei material at the cost of timeline consistency.
You really have it in for Paraguay.

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:34 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Pure strength is not like rock-scissors-paper.
Nobody said it was. But just because A beat B and B beat C, doesn't mean A inherently beats C. That's a fallacy.
Hugo Boss wrote:Strength is not the only factor to determine a fight's outcome.
That only supports my point.

User avatar
Saturnine
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:46 am

Simere wrote:
Saturnine wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Because Toriyama is on board with it, if he wasn't, you'd be getting lynched if you dared to defend any of this shit. Not that there aren't detractors even with Toriyama on board, but the defense force would be a tenth of what it is now without the "Toriyama seal of approval" behind all this BS.

For some reason, this stupid notion that only the original creator can do something well (which has been proven patently false in a multitude of other series & characters) makes people jump in to defend things.
Well, Dragon Ball does need Toriyama to maintain its feel. If you leave Toei to their own devices, you end up with a one-dimensional simplification of the series for Paraguayan machos, where there's only screaming, muscles, derivativeness and tons of circle jerk references to previous Toei material at the cost of timeline consistency.
You really have it in for Paraguay.
Sorry, I was just browsing Google Trends the other day, and Paraguay showed as the country where Dragon Ball gets googled the most in South America :lol:

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:06 pm

I'm telling you guys with the way Super is heading now, by the end of this series we have Yamcha fighting on par with the Grand Priest! Mark my words.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:41 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:I'm telling you guys with the way Super is heading now, by the end of this series we have Yamcha fighting on par with the Grand Priest! Mark my words.
I'd be fine with it, because it'd be rife with comedic material.

Just because I enjoyed how episode 84 handled the martial arts aspects doesn't mean I'm not aware of how the ideas it pushed ruffled people's feathers. I just don't see the value in constantly trying to apply overly-specific powerscaling from the past into the broad-strokes conceptual-utilization that the anime makes use of.

Seriously, think about it........ how many of the supposed inconsistencies you guys have found could be explained away merely by looking at the broad concepts that the writers attempted to convey?

I would propose that it'd be a lot more than people would admit.

User avatar
perucho1990
I Live Here
Posts: 2361
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:04 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by perucho1990 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:51 pm

I already mentioned in the Main Discussion thread and I will say it again.
They are retconning the whole Z logic of "I have more Ki than you so I win", with an approach to PLs similar to JJBA, Hunter x Hunter, OPM, even One Piece uses it.

I understand why, Toei wants to make the support characters useful again instead of just being Goku/Vegeta doing everything like Toriyama wants it(Toyble Manga).

Lets be honest, fans these days prefer strategy/team work in fights over just brute strength/Ki blast spam.
And I'm going to add in the year 2017, fans want to see the support characters being great(besides wanting strong female characters), and Tori made the support characters useless in the Cell/Buu Saga in favor of the Saiyans.

User avatar
omaro34
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1969
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:27 pm
Location: Western Canada

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by omaro34 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:58 pm

Not everybody. I was quick to criticize the show when it portrayed Trunks and those mystical power ups last Arc. And last week's episode I had minor issues with too.

I'm not going to stop calling out the show for its power level inconsistencies, but at this point its become more than a trend in Super that it doesn't bother me as much as when Super was in its early episodes.

There's a reason why I don't post much on the power level thread; far too many inconsistencies to rationalize the numbers.
"Kami is the Morgan Freeman of Dragonball Z"

Check out my Piccolo page: https://www.facebook.com/PiccoloTheSuperNamek/?ref=hl

User avatar
Asura
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Asura » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:07 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Pure strength is not like rock-scissors-paper.
Nobody said it was. But just because A beat B and B beat C, doesn't mean A inherently beats C. That's a fallacy.
Hugo Boss wrote:Strength is not the only factor to determine a fight's outcome.
That only supports my point.
I dunno why this is so hard to accept for some reason, because this isn't a fallacy, but basic logic.

3 > 2 > 1

2 is greater than 1, and 3 is greater than 2, hence 3 is greater than 1. By your logic, 3 is greater than 2, but 1 can sometimes be greater than 3 and we just can't always be sure that 3 > 1, because math isn't concrete or something.

We're not even talking about raw strength here, we're just going off of what the anime showed us, which takes every aspect of a fight into account. Neither is this going into anything related to "power levels" but merely consistency, and power relativity.

It is not so crazy to assume that if Black (A) beats Goku (B) and Vegeta (C), then A > B > C. We're all in agreement on this, yes? Now, skip ahead. We see Vegeta has trained and improved himself, while Goku has gone to learn the Mafuba instead of making himself stronger. We then see, with visual evidence, Vegeta (C) beating Black (A). Considering nothing has changed in regards to power with Goku (B), that means that Black is still stronger than Goku. And since we see Vegeta is stronger than Black, we can now say for certainty that C > A > B. And doing more basic math here, we come to the conclusion that C > B.

If Goku had also trained, but we didn't see him fight, then we couldn't say for sure that Vegeta > Goku. Then you would have a very valid point. But considering the fact that Goku didn't get stronger at all from his last encounter with Black, we now know Vegeta > Black > Goku (obviously this all changes once kaioken gets involved)

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:41 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:I'm telling you guys with the way Super is heading now, by the end of this series we have Yamcha fighting on par with the Grand Priest! Mark my words.
I'd be fine with it, because it'd be rife with comedic material.

Just because I enjoyed how episode 84 handled the martial arts aspects doesn't mean I'm not aware of how the ideas it pushed ruffled people's feathers. I just don't see the value in constantly trying to apply overly-specific powerscaling from the past into the broad-strokes conceptual-utilization that the anime makes use of.

Seriously, think about it........ how many of the supposed inconsistencies you guys have found could be explained away merely by looking at the broad concepts that the writers attempted to convey?

I would propose that it'd be a lot more than people would admit.
Overly-specific powerscaling you say?
That's FAR from what we all have in mind. Anyone and their great grandmother can see that Krillin going toe to toe with freakin current SSJ Blue Goku for crying out loud is a giant inconsistency absolutely not subject to justification.

If we're going to stay rationally minded, we can all see in the blink of an eye that the writers of these series aren't even trying to be consistent in the slightest. It's almost like they're trying to do it in purpose just to piss us off.

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:51 pm

I think more then enoughs been said here to make it clear we are never all going to see eye to eye on this subject.

I and many other can see were the other side is coming from and vice versa. The best we can do here is learn, understand, take from that what we can and agree to disagree. There is a point were enough has been said and the rational among us can just move on.

Its good to hear the opposing side, you dont have to agree but its healthy for your mind.

User avatar
Asura
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

Post by Asura » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:01 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Seriously, think about it........ how many of the supposed inconsistencies you guys have found could be explained away merely by looking at the broad concepts that the writers attempted to convey?
What I bolded right there is the problem. You wrote "attempted", and that's exactly what it is, an attempt, not a success. Why on earth should I be on-board with the writers if they're failing to convey the concept?

And to me, that is the saddest part about the Krillin vs Goku fight. It was an attempt, and a damn good one until SSB and the beam struggle got involved, then once again, the attempt failed.

The attempt was to allow the other, underused characters to catch up on an (almost) even playing field with Goku & the rest, right? I'm personally fine with that, if they want to completely get rid of power levels to make it so the other characters have a chance to shine, that's great.

The problem is, their attempt at doing this has failed every single time and gotten fans angry, because they're not doing it on a basis that makes any sense. It just magically keeps happening without explanation, and that is the problem. They were soooo close to nailing it in this recent episode. Krillin was basically on par with SSJ Goku by his techniques alone. He kept catching him off guard, and he was smart and witty. That is how you get rid of power levels correctly, and that is how you make underused characters shine.

When Goku turned into SSB and asked Krillin what he would do now, that should have been the point where 18 jumped in and went on about teamwork. But nope, their answer to what Krillin, the technique over raw power guy that we just saw 2 minutes ago, should do now is to try and go head-to-head in a raw power struggle. And there goes that "attempt".

The point being, you can hide these inconsistencies through good writing. By all means, Krillin faring well against an SSJ Goku should have been an inconsistency, but we saw it wasn't because of how well written that part was, where we saw exactly how Krillin was able to go head-to-head with him, and how it made sense.

They either need to get their act together and stop being so half-assed with these attempts, or just stop doing them and resort back to power levels. Personally I'd prefer the first option. Until then though, fans will bitch and moan, and not just because of power levels, but because the way in which everything is shown and explained doesn't make any sense. Super just expects us to be completely on board with any character being as strong as they want to be, without giving us any kind of explanation or logic. That is the problem. You don't even need to give the characters a power-up, just give them something unique that shows how yes, they're not as strong as Goku or Vegeta or Gohan, but they have their individual strengths that they can bring to the team (and I suspect they will do this during the tournament, but there will still be inconsistencies that overshadow these things, just like this Krillin situation). "It's just a kid's show" isn't even an excuse, because as noted kids notice this stuff too. They're not dumb.
Last edited by Asura on Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply