"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Which is why a lot of people want OVAs/Movies of the manga arcs. They can all fit neatly into 2 hour movies, if even that much time is needed.

I'd love to get movie adaptations of Toyotaro's manga arcs so I could have five fun extra stories within a consistent medium to come back to, instead of two fun movies and a manga, or a TV show I don't particularly feel holds together. The ship has probably sailed on that though.

[mfwlegend3]

Which is why a lot of people want OVAs/Movies of the manga arcs. They can all fit neatly into 2 hour movies, if even that much time is needed.

I'd love to get movie adaptations of Toyotaro's manga arcs so I could have five fun extra stories within a consistent medium to come back to, instead of two fun movies and a manga, or a TV show I don't particularly feel holds together. The ship has probably sailed on that though.

I feel like this would be a good "thank you" for Toyotaro on working on the manga. He's done a good job, and Toriyama agrees. I'd be all for a film, as the animation would be top notch (for Toei standards) and very fitting.

[Cipher]

I feel like this would be a good "thank you" for Toyotaro on working on the manga. He's done a good job, and Toriyama agrees. I'd be all for a film, as the animation would be top notch (for Toei standards) and very fitting.

It'd be rad, but I don't see Toei shelling out to re-adapt material so quickly (though I'd have said you were crazy if you told me they'd re-adapt the new movies for TV two years ago, and may even have posts on this board to that exact effect).

Last post on the subject, but I really want to praise the manga's handling of the Universe 6 arc in particular. I find it interminably boring in the anime, but it really clicked on this read, and, more than just being tolerable, came away feeling extremely fun. Everything feels like quirky little action/comedy set pieces until the flashy centerpiece fight against Hit, which I think is how it's actually designed to play out. Vegeta effectively throwing his run in the tournament to guide Cabba works. Goku's Super Saiyan God strategy against Hit comes as a genuine surprise, as is his more clearly throwing the match so he can watch Monaka fight. Hit is actually more fun the less fleshed out he is; we get just enough of him here (and I think his gimmicks are better utilized in the manga). Even Frost, whom I'd remembered as feeling half-baked compared to the anime, works better. He isn't a beguiling Freeza-lite. He's just an asshole; a famous warrior who puts on a kind public persona but is completely self-absorbed and petty. Piccolo wonders if "from this point on he'll become more like Freeza." Perfect send-off. He doesn't need an elaborate backstory or a sub-plot about trying to make off with his reward (and in fact his justification for cheating in the manga is that he simply wants to be done with this "no-payment tournament" as quickly as possible). I don't feel like serializing this material and stretching it so thin in the TV version does it any justice. Had it been the third movie, though, I might have loved it.

[Doctor.]

Yes, his training probably consisted of achieving SSG, since it's clearly implied he didn't have the form before this point, and mastering his strategy, which is what Goku stated his training consisted of. If his power had increased, characters would have told us it increased (hell, even Black says Vegeta isn't much too different).

My job as a reader isn't to explain what the author can't be bothered to explain. You take what you get, you don't make up excuses for the author.

It is never implied in the manga that Vegeta didn't have the form before. Hell, it's not even stated in the anime that Vegeta can't access that form...just that he attained god ki without the ritual. Black says Vegeta doesn't look different in base form...which he doesn't. Black is soon made to eat those words.

In writing, the author shouldn't be expected to hold your hand to understand basic implications. It's unnecessary and makes for redundant reading. The RoSaT is a place that puts tremendous strain on a persons body, so even IF Vegeta didn't do a single thing but work on this technique the entire time, he would've toughened up anyway. Just because this is a manga for children, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to read between the lines.

It's clearly implied by the fact that Vegeta never used it before AND he says he needed this form to defeat Black. If Vegeta doesn't look too different in base form, then it's only logical that his power didn't increase. And if his power didn't increase much in base, then it didn’t in Super Saiyan Blue either. Which means Vegeta should have still been defeated by SS Black, let alone SSR.

The ROSAT is useless at this point. It's good for getting a lot of training in a short amount of time, but beyond that, what will 10x gravity and a denser atmosphere accomplish? Him and Goku barely got any stronger after three years of training together and you're telling me Vegeta got strong enough to push himself from Super Saiyan Black's level to Rosé's in one year? That does not make any sense, regardless of whatever other incredible boosts in strength in the original series (which most likely also make no sense, depending on the examples you're willing to give).

There's nothing to read under the lines here. You're just making up excuses to justify an oversight in Toyotaro's/Toriyama's writing. Goku explained what Vegeta's training consisted of and we know that the ROSAT doesn't give monumental boosts anymore. It's a manga for children where the author meticulously tries to explain every little dubious thing in order to make it make sense. Yet, he doesn't do it this time, because it's a mistake.

[ekrolo2]

I still don't get how the hell Vegeta's strategy is working if Black was pounding SSB Vegeta into the dirt even before going Rosé. I know Vegeta is getting the upperhand due to the quick burst in speed and power, but that quick burst shouldn't matter in the slightest, considering how Black should be massively above him.

And further, if the two God forms are so close in power that Vegeta is comfortable using SSG against Black, and yet Blue has such massive stamina drain when transforming and even when active, then why the fuck is Blue even useful? Rosé doesn't seem to have the same issues, Black is using it just fine.

It doesn't work because Toyotaro is acting like God and Blue have different stats besides the power & energy drain when they don't. Like that SSGod is apparently good for avoiding Black, implying its faster when there's literally no precedent for it in anything. He's acting like God and Blue are SS and Grade 2 or 3 in the way they work but they don't.

[Basako]

I still don't get how the hell Vegeta's strategy is working if Black was pounding SSB Vegeta into the dirt even before going Rosé. I know Vegeta is getting the upperhand due to the quick burst in speed and power, but that quick burst shouldn't matter in the slightest, considering how Black should be massively above him.

And further, if the two God forms are so close in power that Vegeta is comfortable using SSG against Black, and yet Blue has such massive stamina drain when transforming and even when active, then why the fuck is Blue even useful? Rosé doesn't seem to have the same issues, Black is using it just fine.

It doesn't work because Toyotaro is acting like God and Blue have different stats besides the power & energy drain when they don't. Like that SSGod is apparently good for avoiding Black, implying its faster when there's literally no precedent for it in anything. He's acting like God and Blue are SS and Grade 2 or 3 in the way they work but they don't.

But they do. SSG body is much fitter than any other state, meaning it can affect the agility and speed, which Vegeta uses to avoid attacks from Black. He uses the blue just in the moments he hits. How does he do that? He trained in the RoSaT and developed this way of fighting.

There are precedents on body shape affecting speed like the ultra SS form, increadibly strong, but totally useless. The blue form is not slow, but it has stamina problems.

[mfwlegend3]

I like to think that the manga and anime take place in alternate universes, tbh. Makes it more interesting and cool that way.

[ekrolo2]

I still don't get how the hell Vegeta's strategy is working if Black was pounding SSB Vegeta into the dirt even before going Rosé. I know Vegeta is getting the upperhand due to the quick burst in speed and power, but that quick burst shouldn't matter in the slightest, considering how Black should be massively above him.

And further, if the two God forms are so close in power that Vegeta is comfortable using SSG against Black, and yet Blue has such massive stamina drain when transforming and even when active, then why the fuck is Blue even useful? Rosé doesn't seem to have the same issues, Black is using it just fine.

It doesn't work because Toyotaro is acting like God and Blue have different stats besides the power & energy drain when they don't. Like that SSGod is apparently good for avoiding Black, implying its faster when there's literally no precedent for it in anything. He's acting like God and Blue are SS and Grade 2 or 3 in the way they work but they don't.

But they do. SSG body is much fitter than any other state, meaning it can affect the agility and speed, which Vegeta uses to avoid attacks from Black. He uses the blue just in the moments he hits. How does he do that? He trained in the RoSaT and developed this way of fighting.

There are precedents on body shape affecting speed like the ultra SS form, increadibly strong, but totally useless. The blue form is not slow, but it has stamina problems.

The problem is that's never mattered after the grade forms, everyone gets ridiculously muscle-bound by the Boo arc without transforming and it doesn't impede their abilities at all. If Toyotaro set it up beforehand that SSGod's leaner body type lends itself to better speed, this would work a lot better but there isn't. God is all around inferior to Blue in ever way besides the stamina problem.

[Basako]

It doesn't work because Toyotaro is acting like God and Blue have different stats besides the power & energy drain when they don't. Like that SSGod is apparently good for avoiding Black, implying its faster when there's literally no precedent for it in anything. He's acting like God and Blue are SS and Grade 2 or 3 in the way they work but they don't.

But they do. SSG body is much fitter than any other state, meaning it can affect the agility and speed, which Vegeta uses to avoid attacks from Black. He uses the blue just in the moments he hits. How does he do that? He trained in the RoSaT and developed this way of fighting.

There are precedents on body shape affecting speed like the ultra SS form, increadibly strong, but totally useless. The blue form is not slow, but it has stamina problems.

The problem is that's never mattered after the grade forms, everyone gets ridiculously muscle-bound by the Boo arc without transforming and it doesn't impede their abilities at all. If Toyotaro set it up beforehand that SSGod's leaner body type lends itself to better speed, this would work a lot better but there isn't. God is all around inferior to Blue in ever way besides the stamina problem.

But, he doesn't have to explain it, I mean, we actually see Vegeta avoiding every attack from Black. It explains itself. Too much muscles do affect, like in the USS form, so fitter body could affect too in the opposite direction.

[ekrolo2]

But they do. SSG body is much fitter than any other state, meaning it can affect the agility and speed, which Vegeta uses to avoid attacks from Black. He uses the blue just in the moments he hits. How does he do that? He trained in the RoSaT and developed this way of fighting.

There are precedents on body shape affecting speed like the ultra SS form, increadibly strong, but totally useless. The blue form is not slow, but it has stamina problems.

The problem is that's never mattered after the grade forms, everyone gets ridiculously muscle-bound by the Boo arc without transforming and it doesn't impede their abilities at all. If Toyotaro set it up beforehand that SSGod's leaner body type lends itself to better speed, this would work a lot better but there isn't. God is all around inferior to Blue in ever way besides the stamina problem.

But, he doesn't have to explain it, I mean, we actually see Vegeta avoiding every attack from Black. It explains itself. Too much muscles do affect, like in the USS form, so fitter body could affect too in the opposite direction.

Vegeta avoiding any attack from Black is already dubious in and out of itself. Black should be massively above him in every regard and unless SSGod is dozens of times faster than Blue, a difference so vast it WOULD have been mentioned by someone by this point, this is a flimsy excuse.

Then you've got plenty of other instances where characters are ridiculously muscle-bound and it does nothing to their speed at all, it's always treated as a Grade 3 specific problem and not a persistent issue that varies depending on forms.

[Basako]

The problem is that's never mattered after the grade forms, everyone gets ridiculously muscle-bound by the Boo arc without transforming and it doesn't impede their abilities at all. If Toyotaro set it up beforehand that SSGod's leaner body type lends itself to better speed, this would work a lot better but there isn't. God is all around inferior to Blue in ever way besides the stamina problem.

But, he doesn't have to explain it, I mean, we actually see Vegeta avoiding every attack from Black. It explains itself. Too much muscles do affect, like in the USS form, so fitter body could affect too in the opposite direction.

Vegeta avoiding any attack from Black is already dubious in and out of itself. Black should be massively above him in every regard and unless SSGod is dozens of times faster than Blue, a difference so vast it WOULD have been mentioned by someone by this point, this is a flimsy excuse.

Then you've got plenty of other instances where characters are ridiculously muscle-bound and it does nothing to their speed at all, it's always treated as a Grade 3 specific problem and not a persistent issue that varies depending on forms.

Man, you are saying the USS body shape is unrelated to its low speed? You don't even believe that. I'm saying the SSG fit body could affect those variables too and also basing it in the fact that Vegeta is able to dodge Black's attacks very effectively. We saw it, I don't need someone explaining it.

[Rhuagh]

What I would love to see adapted into animation is Trunks' Buu Arc. It looks amazing in the manga. Trunks in Kaio clothes, in the Kaioshin world training with the Z Sword, then fighting Babidi and Dabura alongside Kibito and Shin, awakening Super Sayajin 2. They win the battle at the cost of Kaoishin's life (and by extension Beerus, sending Whis into shutdown), preventing Majin Buu's revival. Ends with Black observing from distance.

They can expand into what the manga didn't show. How is human civilization doing many years after Trunks defeated the Androids and before Black came. Beginning of Trunks relationship with Mai, more of Future Bulma. Kaoishin recruiting and training Trunks. The fights with Pui Pui and Yakon.

[ekrolo2]

But, he doesn't have to explain it, I mean, we actually see Vegeta avoiding every attack from Black. It explains itself. Too much muscles do affect, like in the USS form, so fitter body could affect too in the opposite direction.

Vegeta avoiding any attack from Black is already dubious in and out of itself. Black should be massively above him in every regard and unless SSGod is dozens of times faster than Blue, a difference so vast it WOULD have been mentioned by someone by this point, this is a flimsy excuse.

Then you've got plenty of other instances where characters are ridiculously muscle-bound and it does nothing to their speed at all, it's always treated as a Grade 3 specific problem and not a persistent issue that varies depending on forms.

Man, you are saying the USS body shape is unrelated to its low speed? You don't even believe that. I'm saying the SSG fit body could affect those variables too and also basing it in the fact that Vegeta is able to dodge Black's attacks very effectively. We saw it, I don't need someone explaining it.

I never said that, my point is that Vegeta's overall stats are lowered in God so Black should be able to speed blitz him since he'd bee to slow physically to even see him move, let alone react to him fast enough to flip Blue on and off at a moments notice. Considering the fact Goku has a whole page where he explains shit to Trunks, throwing in a line about SSGod being faster, even this late would be appreciated. Dragon Ball, especially the new stuff, already hinges on vague statements and perpetually shifting rules that you need a convoluted web of headcannon horseshit to make sense of any of it and I REALLY don't feel like doing it anymore.

[Cipher]

I'm mad Toyotaro didn't include an essay with the last chapter outlining his theories on Vegeta's power so I could understand this complicated-ass shit.

[TheMikado]

Yes, his training probably consisted of achieving SSG, since it's clearly implied he didn't have the form before this point, and mastering his strategy, which is what Goku stated his training consisted of. If his power had increased, characters would have told us it increased (hell, even Black says Vegeta isn't much too different).

My job as a reader isn't to explain what the author can't be bothered to explain. You take what you get, you don't make up excuses for the author.

It is never implied in the manga that Vegeta didn't have the form before. Hell, it's not even stated in the anime that Vegeta can't access that form...just that he attained god ki without the ritual. Black says Vegeta doesn't look different in base form...which he doesn't. Black is soon made to eat those words.

In writing, the author shouldn't be expected to hold your hand to understand basic implications. It's unnecessary and makes for redundant reading. The RoSaT is a place that puts tremendous strain on a persons body, so even IF Vegeta didn't do a single thing but work on this technique the entire time, he would've toughened up anyway. Just because this is a manga for children, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to read between the lines.

It's clearly implied by the fact that Vegeta never used it before AND he says he needed this form to defeat Black. If Vegeta doesn't look too different in base form, then it's only logical that his power didn't increase. And if his power didn't increase much in base, then it didn’t in Super Saiyan Blue either. Which means Vegeta should have still been defeated by SS Black, let alone SSR.

The ROSAT is useless at this point. It's good for getting a lot of training in a short amount of time, but beyond that, what will 10x gravity and a denser atmosphere accomplish? Him and Goku barely got any stronger after three years of training together and you're telling me Vegeta got strong enough to push himself from Super Saiyan Black's level to Rosé's in one year? That does not make any sense, regardless of whatever other incredible boosts in strength in the original series (which most likely also make no sense, depending on the examples you're willing to give).

There's nothing to read under the lines here. You're just making up excuses to justify an oversight in Toyotaro's/Toriyama's writing. Goku explained what Vegeta's training consisted of and we know that the ROSAT doesn't give monumental boosts anymore. It's a manga for children where the author meticulously tries to explain every little dubious thing in order to make it make sense. Yet, he doesn't do it this time, because it's a mistake.

What a minute, your premise is false because Goku specifically stated SSG is the form preceding SSB, implying that form MUST be achieved first prior to SSB. Basically stating that Vegeta had SSG at least prior to the first time he went SSB. As for the power gains and whatever. I don't think there's any excuse for it. My only thought is that SSG gives a speed advantage and SSB gives a raw power advantage which is actually a very cool way to use different Saiyans forms rather than them all scaling linearly on all stats. So to recap, no the power levels aren't going to make much sense, but if the two forms grant slightly different stat bonuses I think that's a novel way to make multiple forms relevant. Just my take on it.

[MathSSJ]

What a minute, your premise is false because Goku specifically stated SSG is the form preceding SSB, implying that form MUST be achieved first prior to SSB. Basically stating that Vegeta had SSG at least prior to the first time he went SSB.

Doesn't work, otherwise why would Vegeta show Cabba the Blue form if God needs to be achieved beforehand while not saying anything about the ritual before?

[Basako]

What a minute, your premise is false because Goku specifically stated SSG is the form preceding SSB, implying that form MUST be achieved first prior to SSB. Basically stating that Vegeta had SSG at least prior to the first time he went SSB.

Doesn't work, otherwise why would Vegeta show Cabba the Blue form if God needs to be achieved beforehand while not saying anything about the ritual before?

Because the SSB is the strongest form and he wanted to show him that, why doesn't it work? The ritual may be a way to obtain the SSG state, but not the only one. We are not sure how Vegeta obtained his red form, neither the blue.

[Lord Beerus]

What a minute, your premise is false because Goku specifically stated SSG is the form preceding SSB, implying that form MUST be achieved first prior to SSB. Basically stating that Vegeta had SSG at least prior to the first time he went SSB.

Doesn't work, otherwise why would Vegeta show Cabba the Blue form if God needs to be achieved beforehand while not saying anything about the ritual before?

Because the SSB is the strongest form and he wanted to show him that, why doesn't it work? The ritual may be a way to obtain the SSG state, but not the only one. We are not sure how Vegeta obtained his red form, neither the blue.

And that's my major gripe with the whole scenario. I've torn into the anime for this and I'm not giving the manga any leeway either. It's just fucking lazy writing. I absolutely detest the notion that the manga is strongly implying that Vegeta achieved SSJG by just training in the ROSAT because it undermines damn near everything about Battle Of Gods.

[Black Hawk]

Agreed. I think it also helps make it clear that Toriyama isn't outlining stories to provide the types of serials he wrote during the original run. Rather, these seem to be designed as short insert stories, to borrow your phrase, operating on only slightly more complex terms than the recent movies. And that makes so much more sense for the mid-quels they are. I find part of my frustration with the TV version actually comes from Toei's attempts to expand them past their natural breaking points, shining spotlights on characters and elements that don't need them. Fun inserts become weak expanded story lines.

100% agreement. I feel like the anime adaptation tries too hard to make these short insert story outlines into drawn-out story arcs like the original manga and anime were, when they don't seem to have been written to be entire story arcs in the first place. Imagine trying to turn the 2008 Jump Special into an entire story arc with multiple episodes; I feel like doing so would do nothing but add non-essential elements and unnecessarily break apart the natural flow of the story. I hope it isn't too out of line for me to say that I feel Toei is doing exactly that with the anime adaptation of Super.

Going back to my earlier comment on Toyotaro's art being less exciting than Toriyama's, I've realized that part of what lends to this feeling (other than his genuinely not being as skilled) is that his pages are set up to include about twice as many panels as Toriyama's on average. It's probably a concession to the schedule and needing to move the story so far along each month. Some of his pages can almost be broken into what would be two clear Toriyama-esque pages stacked vertically. There isn't quite as much room for awe and impact. Despite this, he still manages to get good pacing and action out of them, occasionally with really stellar choreography. It does limit the impact though. C'est la vie.

My thoughts exactly! I always felt that Toyotarō was having to cram around double the content on each page in comparison to the original manga due to the circumstances, and yet he still somehow makes it work well and, in my opinion, makes it just as appealing and fun-to-read as the original manga. I applaud the man!

I'm mad Toyotaro didn't include an essay with the last chapter outlining his theories on Vegeta's power so I could understand this complicated-ass shit.

I was hoping for something like this too. Maybe we'll get something in an interview somewhere down the road, perhaps?

[Basako]

Doesn't work, otherwise why would Vegeta show Cabba the Blue form if God needs to be achieved beforehand while not saying anything about the ritual before?

Because the SSB is the strongest form and he wanted to show him that, why doesn't it work? The ritual may be a way to obtain the SSG state, but not the only one. We are not sure how Vegeta obtained his red form, neither the blue.

And that's my major gripe with the whole scenario. I've torn into the anime for this and I'm not giving the manga any leeway either. It's just fucking lazy writing. I absolutely detest the notion that the manga is strongly implying that Vegeta achieved SSJG by just training in the ROSAT because it undermines damn near everything about Battle Of Gods.

But the Manga doesn't imply that, Goku isn't even surprised to see Vegeta in the red form, that would be implying that. Goku even explains to Trunks that it is the transformation before blue. If anything, it's implied he had it before the blue, but we just never saw him using it.