Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SaiyanGod117]

Pretty sure thats a feat for krillin, not the other way around.

So how did he reach Buuhan level?

He didn't. He made smart use of distraction and predicted specific actions from Goku to throw him off-guard and attempt a ring out. It was only at the very end of their spar that it even became something close to a power struggle, and even then it wasn't really about power anyways.

Well the way they show it is poor, I'm all for tactics and quick-thinking winning fights. Even so, all that should be obsolete in the face of overwhelming power. Logically Krillin should have no chance with even Base Goku, him forcing Goku to go Super Saiyan is absurd. But really I could get off over something like that, my main gripe with Krillin is Toei expects the viewer to believe, he got as strong as he did with run-of-the-mill training equipment.

[julianix]

Base Goku fights slim Buu in base

Ssj Goku fights ssj gohan

Ssjb Goku fights krillin

Ssjb will fight #17

Base Goku fights 4rth form Freeza

Freeza in 4rth form is a million times stronger than ssj Gohan.

Buu is much stronger than krillin

Why is Goku using anything above base to fight gohan and krillin?

Stop making sense of this shit you guys can't.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

OR........ We try to make sense of it because we enjoy the show and it's better to try and make gold out of coal then it is to just admit it's just coal.

This is why I made an Inconsistency Rationalization Thread in the In-Universe forum board in the first place, because people don't even wanna make the effort anymore.

[pacz360]

Base Goku fights slim Buu in base

Ssj Goku fights ssj gohan
gohan trained for 8 months and trained again with big green
Ssjb Goku fights krillin
Krillin never had a chance goku wanted test his resolve
Ssjb will fight #17
10 years and if Frieza and trunks can get stronger in a short amount of time why can't 17 who had a fixed level higher than both?
Base Goku fights 4rth form Freeza
Don't see any problem
Freeza in 4rth form is a million times stronger than ssj Gohan.
Well of course the dude trained
Buu is much stronger than krillin
And that's bad?
Why is Goku using anything above base to fight gohan and krillin?
Cause he want to show krillin the level of opponents that will be in the tournaments
Stop making sense of this shit you guys can't.

Its not hard really your overreacting some of it been explained especially with krillin.

[Lord Beerus]

So how did he reach Buuhan level?

He didn't. He made smart use of distraction and predicted specific actions from Goku to throw him off-guard and attempt a ring out. It was only at the very end of their spar that it even became something close to a power struggle, and even then it wasn't really about power anyways.

Well the way they show it is poor, I'm all for tactics and quick-thinking winning fights. Even so, all that should be obsolete in the face of overwhelming power. Logically Krillin should have no chance with even Base Goku, him forcing Goku to go Super Saiyan is absurd. But really I could get off over something like that, my main gripe with Krillin is Toei expects the viewer to believe, he got as strong as he did with run-of-the-mill training equipment.

Well, if Piccolo can make monster gains with basic training, why can't the Earthlings?

[Doctor.]

I've made my list for Z+Super battle powers. It starts off at the millions, because that's what people really care about, the big numbers.

[spoiler]Freeza arc:

Goku: 3
-- Super Saiyan: 150

Freeza: 120

Android arc:

Mecha Freeza: 140
-- Suppressed: 70

King Cold: 70

Trunks: 3
-- Super Saiyan: 150

Goku: 3.7
-- Super Saiyan: 185

-- 3 years later --

Goku: 3.8
-- Super Saiyan: 190
-- post-absorptions: 120

Vegeta: 5
-- Super Saiyan: 250

Artificial Human #19: 75
-- post-absorptions: 150

Artificial Human #20: 80

Piccolo: 100

Artificial Human #18: 370
Artificial Human #17: 375

-- Cell stuff --

Piccolo: 300
-- no weights: 375

Cell: 285
-- post-absorptions: 465

Artificial Human #16: 465

Semi-Perfect Cell: 650

Vegeta: 12
-- Super Saiyan: 600
-- Grade 2 (x70): 840

Trunks: 11.9
-- Super Saiyan: 595
-- Grade 2: 833
-- Grade 3 (x100): 1,190

Perfect Cell: 1,000

-- Cell Games --

Piccolo: 1,650

Trunks: 25
-- Super Saiyan: 1,250
-- Grade 2: 1,750

Vegeta: 25
-- Super Saiyan: 1,250
-- Grade 2: 1,750

Cell Jr.: 1,700

Goku: 25
-- Mastered Super Saiyan (x100): 2,500

Gohan: 35
-- Mastered Super Saiyan: 3,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 7,000

Perfect Cell: 2,500
-- vs Gohan: 3,600
-- full power: 4,000
-- Super Perfect Cell: 6,800

Boo arc:

Piccolo: 1,750
Kaioshin: 2,000

Gohan: 25
-- M. Super Saiyan: 2,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 5,000

Dabra: 5,250

Goten: 20
-- M. Super Saiyan: 2,000

Trunks: 22
-- M. Super Saiyan: 2,200

Vegeta: 33
-- post Majin: 40
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 8,000

Goku: 40
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 8,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 32,000

Fat Boo: 28,000
-- Grey Boo: 16,800
-- Mr. Boo: 11,200

-- Z-Sword stuff --

Gohan: 42
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,200
-- Super Saiyan 2: 8,400
-- ultimate: 175,000

Gotenks: 75
-- post-training: 150
-- M. Super Saiyan: 15,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 30,000 (in order to make the power levels a bit more minimalist, let's just assume that Goku thought the kids would be able to go SS2 to face Boo; it makes it so that the latter part of the Boo arc, and Super as a consequence, has less bloated numbers)
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000

Super Boo: 105,000
-- Gotenks Boo: 225,000
-- Gohan Boo: 280,000

Vegetto: 4,000
-- Super Saiyan: 400,000

Kid Boo: 35,000

Battle of Gods:

Goku: 45
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 9,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 36,000
-- Super Saiyan God: 6,000,000

Vegeta: 45
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 9,000
-- enraged: 900,000

Beerus: 100,000,000
Whis: 300,000,000

Resurrection 'F':

Gohan: 42
-- Super Saiyan: 4,200

Piccolo: 1,900

Tagoma: 2,500
Ginyu: 2,900

Goku, Saiyan beyond God: 170,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,500,000

Vegeta, Saiyan beyond God: 171,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,550,000

Freeza: 175,000
-- Golden Freeza: 9,500,000

Champa arc:

Goku: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000
-- Kaioken x2: 17,500,000
-- x10: 87,500,000

Vegeta: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000

Piccolo: 2,000

Mr. Boo: 11,200

Botamo: 45

Frost: 40
-- second form: 50
-- final form: 2,300

Cabba: 50
-- Super Saiyan: 2,500

Hit: 8,250,000
-- improvement: 17,500,000

Champa: 99,000,000

Copy Vegeta arc:

Goku, Saiyan Beyond God: 175,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000

Copy-Vegeta: 175,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000

Gotenks: 150
-- M. Super Saiyan: 15,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000

Black arc:

Goku: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 10,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 40,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000
-- enraged: 12,500,000
-- post-Mafuba: 18,500,000

Vegeta: 50
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000
-- post-training: 18,500,000

Trunks: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 10,000
-- Super Saiyan Rage: 12,000,000

Zamasu: 8,000

Black: 20,000
-- post-boost: 200,000
-- Super Saiyan Rosé: 10,000,000
-- post-boost: 13,500,000
-- post-scythe: 20,00,000

Merged Zamasu: 50,000,000
-- corrupted: 75,000,000
-- giant: 25,000,000

Vegetto, Saiyan Beyond God: 1,600,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 80,000,000

Spirit Sword: 40,000,000

Universal Survival arc:

Gohan: 80
-- M. Super Saiyan: 8,000

Goku: 105
-- M. Super Saiyan: 10,500
-- Saiyan beyond God: 370,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 18,500,000
-- Kaioken x2: 37,000,000

Mr. Boo: 11,200
-- Slim Boo: 385,000

Basil: 4,000
-- powered-up: 9,500

Lavenda: 6,500

Bergamo: 8,000
-- bullshit: 15,000,000

Toppo: 16,500,000

Kuririn: 65
Artificial Human #18: 370

Artificial Human #17, based on my astute powers of NEP guessing: 16,500,000[/spoiler]

Could have made a more minimalist list if I wanted to, but eh, I guess this is good enough.

[ekrolo2]

I've made my list for Z+Super battle powers. It starts off at the millions, because that's what people really care about, the big numbers.

[spoiler]Freeza arc:

Goku: 3
-- Super Saiyan: 150

Freeza: 120

Android arc:

Mecha Freeza: 140
-- Suppressed: 70

King Cold: 70

Trunks: 3
-- Super Saiyan: 150

Goku: 3.7
-- Super Saiyan: 185

-- 3 years later --

Goku: 3.8
-- Super Saiyan: 190
-- post-absorptions: 120

Vegeta: 5
-- Super Saiyan: 250

Artificial Human #19: 75
-- post-absorptions: 150

Artificial Human #20: 80

Piccolo: 100

Artificial Human #18: 370
Artificial Human #17: 375

-- Cell stuff --

Piccolo: 300
-- no weights: 375

Cell: 285
-- post-absorptions: 465

Artificial Human #16: 465

Semi-Perfect Cell: 650

Vegeta: 12
-- Super Saiyan: 600
-- Grade 2 (x70): 840

Trunks: 11.9
-- Super Saiyan: 595
-- Grade 2: 833
-- Grade 3 (x100): 1,190

Perfect Cell: 1,000

-- Cell Games --

Piccolo: 1,650

Trunks: 25
-- Super Saiyan: 1,250
-- Grade 2: 1,750

Vegeta: 25
-- Super Saiyan: 1,250
-- Grade 2: 1,750

Cell Jr.: 1,700

Goku: 25
-- Mastered Super Saiyan (x100): 2,500

Gohan: 35
-- Mastered Super Saiyan: 3,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 7,000

Perfect Cell: 2,500
-- vs Gohan: 3,600
-- full power: 4,000
-- Super Perfect Cell: 6,800

Boo arc:

Piccolo: 1,750
Kaioshin: 2,000

Gohan: 25
-- M. Super Saiyan: 2,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 5,000

Dabra: 5,250

Goten: 20
-- M. Super Saiyan: 2,000

Trunks: 22
-- M. Super Saiyan: 2,200

Vegeta: 33
-- post Majin: 40
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 8,000

Goku: 40
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 8,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 32,000

Fat Boo: 28,000
-- Grey Boo: 16,800
-- Mr. Boo: 11,200

-- Z-Sword stuff --

Gohan: 42
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,200
-- Super Saiyan 2: 8,400
-- ultimate: 175,000

Gotenks: 75
-- post-training: 150
-- M. Super Saiyan: 15,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 30,000 (in order to make the power levels a bit more minimalist, let's just assume that Goku thought the kids would be able to go SS2 to face Boo; it makes it so that the latter part of the Boo arc, and Super as a consequence, has less bloated numbers)
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000

Super Boo: 105,000
-- Gotenks Boo: 225,000
-- Gohan Boo: 280,000

Vegetto: 4,000
-- Super Saiyan: 400,000

Kid Boo: 35,000

Battle of Gods:

Goku: 45
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 9,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 36,000
-- Super Saiyan God: 6,000,000

Vegeta: 45
-- M. Super Saiyan: 4,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 9,000
-- enraged: 900,000

Beerus: 100,000,000
Whis: 300,000,000

Resurrection 'F':

Gohan: 42
-- Super Saiyan: 4,200

Piccolo: 1,900

Tagoma: 2,500
Ginyu: 2,900

Goku, Saiyan beyond God: 170,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,500,000

Vegeta, Saiyan beyond God: 171,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,550,000

Freeza: 175,000
-- Golden Freeza: 9,500,000

Champa arc:

Goku: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000
-- Kaioken x2: 17,500,000
-- x10: 87,500,000

Vegeta: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000

Piccolo: 2,000

Mr. Boo: 11,200

Botamo: 45

Frost: 40
-- second form: 50
-- final form: 2,300

Cabba: 50
-- Super Saiyan: 2,500

Hit: 8,250,000
-- improvement: 17,500,000

Champa: 99,000,000

Copy Vegeta arc:

Goku, Saiyan Beyond God: 175,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000

Copy-Vegeta: 175,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000

Gotenks: 150
-- M. Super Saiyan: 15,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000

Black arc:

Goku: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 10,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 40,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000
-- enraged: 12,500,000
-- post-Mafuba: 18,500,000

Vegeta: 50
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 8,750,000
-- post-training: 18,500,000

Trunks: 50
-- M. Super Saiyan: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 10,000
-- Super Saiyan Rage: 12,000,000

Zamasu: 8,000

Black: 20,000
-- post-boost: 200,000
-- Super Saiyan Rosé: 10,000,000
-- post-boost: 13,500,000
-- post-scythe: 20,00,000

Merged Zamasu: 50,000,000
-- corrupted: 75,000,000
-- giant: 25,000,000

Vegetto, Saiyan Beyond God: 1,600,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 80,000,000

Spirit Sword: 40,000,000

Universal Survival arc:

Gohan: 80
-- M. Super Saiyan: 8,000

Goku: 105
-- M. Super Saiyan: 10,500
-- Saiyan beyond God: 370,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 18,500,000
-- Kaioken x2: 37,000,000

Mr. Boo: 11,200
-- Slim Boo: 385,000

Basil: 4,000
-- powered-up: 9,500

Lavenda: 6,500

Bergamo: 8,000
-- bullshit: 15,000,000

Toppo: 16,500,000

Kuririn: 65
Artificial Human #18: 370

Artificial Human #17, based on my astute powers of NEP guessing: 16,500,000[/spoiler]

Could have made a more minimalist list if I wanted to, but eh, I guess this is good enough.

Vegeta and Trunks don't use the Grade forms in the Cell Games.

[Doctor.]

Vegeta and Trunks don't use the Grade forms in the Cell Games.

Which is why I boosted up their base/Super Saiyan forms to a reasonable level to take on the Cell Jrs, just as a fail-safe. I like to think that they do, though, they have the Grade 2/MSS aura and they don't get much screen-time, it's hard to tell the SS and Grade 2 designs apart when the characters are in the background.

[SaiyanGod117]

He didn't. He made smart use of distraction and predicted specific actions from Goku to throw him off-guard and attempt a ring out. It was only at the very end of their spar that it even became something close to a power struggle, and even then it wasn't really about power anyways.

Well the way they show it is poor, I'm all for tactics and quick-thinking winning fights. Even so, all that should be obsolete in the face of overwhelming power. Logically Krillin should have no chance with even Base Goku, him forcing Goku to go Super Saiyan is absurd. But really I could get off over something like that, my main gripe with Krillin is Toei expects the viewer to believe, he got as strong as he did with run-of-the-mill training equipment.

Well, if Piccolo can make monster gains with basic training, why can't the Earthlings?

When has Piccolo ever made monster gains with basic training? It would still be better than training with equipment made for normal humans.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Maybe Krillin's just been training his body without using his Ki. Also, Earth has some crazy contraptions. Whose to say that equipment isn't designed for upper tier martial artists like OUR SAVIOUR SATAN?!

HAIL SATAN! HAIL SATAN!

[Noah]

What are the chances of Goku going Blue against #17 is a color mistake? (He's going SSJ instead in the actual episode)

[Doctor.]

When has Piccolo ever made monster gains with basic training? It would still be better than training with equipment made for normal humans.

The moment he jumped from 1 million or so in terms of battle power to a high 8-digit or even 9 digit number in 3 years.

What are the chances of Goku going Blue against #17 is a color mistake? (He's going SSJ instead in the actual episode)

None, Super Saiyan Blue is colored differently since it has special effects and filters for the aura and hair.

[Noah]

None, Super Saiyan Blue is colored differently since it has special effects and filters for the aura and hair.

But actually has none of that in this shot, so it could be gold, who knows

[Doctor.]

None, Super Saiyan Blue is colored differently since it has special effects and filters for the aura and hair.

But actually has none of that in this shot, so it could be gold, who knows

That shot has incredible amount of detail in terms of shading poured into the hair, I honestly doubt it's a coloring mistake.

[SaiyanGod117]

The moment he jumped from 1 million or so in terms of battle power to a high 8-digit or even 9 digit number in 3 years.

How is training for 3 years with a Super Saiyan and his son(with high potential)basic training?

[ekrolo2]

When has Piccolo ever made monster gains with basic training? It would still be better than training with equipment made for normal humans.

The moment he jumped from 1 million or so in terms of battle power to a high 8-digit or even 9 digit number in 3 years.

Piccolo is the KING of BS strength gains. He trains for a few months by himself then beats up Gohan and he's almost as strong as King Kai & Nappa. He does nothing for a week and jumps from 3000 to Captain Ginyu level, at least. Then he fights with Goku and Gohan for 3 years and becomes, literally, hundreds of times stronger.

You could say this is a good basis for him to get stronger but here's the thing: Piccolo stopped getting any relevant power ups for literally a decade. Nothing he did made a difference anymore, why should it randomly start to now besides the plot needing it.

[Marlowe89]

What are the chances of Goku going Blue against #17 is a color mistake? (He's going SSJ instead in the actual episode)

While coloring mistakes in episode previews have been known to occur in long-running anime series (albeit very rarely), it's almost never confirmed until the episode actually airs. It's highly unlikely that this is an error.

We have to embrace the possibility that 17 is actually God tier at this point, although personally I'd like to have a decent explanation for it. He is an android with an advanced power supply system, so I certainly don't think that would be too much to ask for.

[Doctor.]

When has Piccolo ever made monster gains with basic training? It would still be better than training with equipment made for normal humans.

The moment he jumped from 1 million or so in terms of battle power to a high 8-digit or even 9 digit number in 3 years.

Piccolo is the KING of BS strength gains. He trains for a few months by himself then beats up Gohan and he's almost as strong as King Kai & Nappa. He does nothing for a week and jumps from 3000 to Captain Ginyu level, at least. Then he fights with Goku and Gohan for 3 years and becomes, literally, hundreds of times stronger.

You could say this is a good basis for him to get stronger but here's the thing: Piccolo stopped getting any relevant power ups for literally a decade. Nothing he did made a difference anymore, why should it randomly start to now besides the plot needing it.

Maybe Piccolo has actually been getting bullshit gains all this time and he was like Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto level in the F arc, it was just overshadowed by everyone else's bullshitier gains

[Lord Beerus]

The moment he jumped from 1 million or so in terms of battle power to a high 8-digit or even 9 digit number in 3 years.

Piccolo is the KING of BS strength gains. He trains for a few months by himself then beats up Gohan and he's almost as strong as King Kai & Nappa. He does nothing for a week and jumps from 3000 to Captain Ginyu level, at least. Then he fights with Goku and Gohan for 3 years and becomes, literally, hundreds of times stronger.

You could say this is a good basis for him to get stronger but here's the thing: Piccolo stopped getting any relevant power ups for literally a decade. Nothing he did made a difference anymore, why should it randomly start to now besides the plot needing it.

Maybe Piccolo has actually been getting bullshit gains all this time and he was like Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto level in the F arc, it was just overshadowed by everyone else's bullshitier gains

Piccolo gains in training are so inconsistent. He makes monstrous jumps through mundane training. yet when it come to the ROSAT, he hits a glass ceiling. You'd think with how strong he got without special training that the ROSAT leading up to the Cell Games would bring the absolute best out of him. But nope. He's still much weaker than the Cell and the Super Saiyans.

[Bullza]

It's still not really clear but Slim Buu seems to be above Base Goku not by any ridiculous amount.

Super Saiyan Goku definitely should be above Fat Buu because he manhandled a powered up Bergamo much easier than Buu dealt with a powered up Basil.

Base Goku and Gohan are possibly above Fat Buu. Base Goku kept up with Slim Buu and said he was faster than before so they should both be faster and more powerful than Fat Buu.

Bergamo was fairly close to Base Goku. Lavender was a bit further away from Base Gohan.

Drugged Basil a bit further way from Fat Buu. The powered up Basil significantly below Fat Buu. Non powered up Basil significantly below that and then Krillin not that far below that and still below Frieza on Namek.