Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

The current power chains that people are currently making look ridiculous due to previous interpretations of power chains from past arcs being wrong.

Ultimate Gohan was never multifold stronger than Goku. Super Boox2>Ultimate Gohan, so that puts a cap on the gap between Goku & Gohan and it's nowhere near 2x.

Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest form of Boo and Goku can kill him if he charges up his SSJ3 ki for a minute, so if any current power chain exists, it will conform to what was stated, not the fandoms arbitrary chains. Goku's admission of inferiority to Super Boo while Goku is stronger than a superior Boo at full power would mean:

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Goku(Full power)>Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku.
Goku throughout the Boo arc cannot naturally wield his full SSJ3 power and needs to charge ki for a minute to reach full power. Therefore Goku's admission is just taking into account the power that he can actually utilize. If Super Boo let Goku charge ki for a minute, which he wouldn't, Goku would be stronger.

Nope. Not in the manga at least.

[Gorou]

The last time I had a look this product, better known as Super, there was still a hint of logic semblance of respect for the original series. Now everything has been lost. It may also like to a certain slice of the public, but clearly is not a Toriyama work at hall. Toyotaro, in his manga, is doing an excellent job, while in the anime tend only to entertain the newer fandom. Have not more sense this talking to balance of power, specially in the anime. The characters become strong, and powerful, according to the necessity to the plot, or according to individuals preferences to some writers, o maybe the fandom. So, every debate focused on power levels is wasted time, accordy to me.

Toriyama was surely not infallible, and the power ups were his Achilles' heel, but at least him has tried to present them so that they could be plausible.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The current power chains that people are currently making look ridiculous due to previous interpretations of power chains from past arcs being wrong.

Ultimate Gohan was never multifold stronger than Goku. Super Boox2>Ultimate Gohan, so that puts a cap on the gap between Goku & Gohan and it's nowhere near 2x.

Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest form of Boo and Goku can kill him if he charges up his SSJ3 ki for a minute, so if any current power chain exists, it will conform to what was stated, not the fandoms arbitrary chains. Goku's admission of inferiority to Super Boo while Goku is stronger than a superior Boo at full power would mean:

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Goku(Full power)>Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku.
Goku throughout the Boo arc cannot naturally wield his full SSJ3 power and needs to charge ki for a minute to reach full power. Therefore Goku's admission is just taking into account the power that he can actually utilize. If Super Boo let Goku charge ki for a minute, which he wouldn't, Goku would be stronger.

Nope. Not in the manga at least.

There is no distinction. Pure Boo is officially stated to be the strongest Boo and nowhere is it stated otherwise.

[pacz360]

The current power chains that people are currently making look ridiculous due to previous interpretations of power chains from past arcs being wrong.

Ultimate Gohan was never multifold stronger than Goku. Super Boox2>Ultimate Gohan, so that puts a cap on the gap between Goku & Gohan and it's nowhere near 2x.

Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest form of Boo and Goku can kill him if he charges up his SSJ3 ki for a minute, so if any current power chain exists, it will conform to what was stated, not the fandoms arbitrary chains. Goku's admission of inferiority to Super Boo while Goku is stronger than a superior Boo at full power would mean:

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Goku(Full power)>Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku.
Goku throughout the Boo arc cannot naturally wield his full SSJ3 power and needs to charge ki for a minute to reach full power. Therefore Goku's admission is just taking into account the power that he can actually utilize. If Super Boo let Goku charge ki for a minute, which he wouldn't, Goku would be stronger.

Nope. Not in the manga at least.

There is no distinction. Pure Boo is officially stated to be the strongest Boo and nowhere is it stated otherwise.

It was stated he was most dangerous not the strongest goku felt he gad a chance to beat kid buu while the mere thought of fighting super buu (no absorption) to him was suicide.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The last time I had a look this product, better known as Super, there was still a hint of logic semblance of respect for the original series. Now everything has been lost. It may also like to a certain slice of the public, but clearly is not a Toriyama work at hall. Toyotaro, in his manga, is doing an excellent job, while in the anime tend only to entertain the newer fandom. Have not more sense this talking to balance of power, specially in the anime. The characters become strong, and powerful, according to the necessity to the plot, or according to individuals preferences to some writers, o maybe the fandom. So, every debate focused on power levels is wasted time, accordy to me.

Toriyama was surely not infallible, and the power ups were his Achilles' heel, but at least him has tried to present them so that they could be plausible.

It's the price we pay for getting great character interaction/moments/development, emotional moments, and amazing fights that could best even the greatest that Dragon Ball Z had to offer.

Indeed, we paid for a lack of straight-up powerscaling and instead got contextual clues that are still relatively easy to figure out if you look at the intent.

===

I apologize for the sarcasm, it's unbecoming of me, but I feel that it's necessary to get the point across to address this common complaint.

[Cabba]

snip.

I do think similarly
I think a fully charged Goku SS3 would have been as strong as Gohan with the ceveat of Gohan having the edge because his form doesn't drastically drain ki/stamina unlike SS3.
About Goku saying he couldnt beat super buu, was just
1 a lie for plot convenience
2 He didnt have enough time on earth as a dead person to fight him

Nope. Not in the manga at least.

The manga does not confirm Kid vs Super superiority either way.
The manga has that same plot of Goku needing to fully charge SS3 in order to use SS3 to its max and defeat Kid bu

So you expect me to believe that because of an extremely flawed multiplier technique he programmed the Androids to be far stronger than Freeza, Cell (his own creation!) and Super Saiyans? I don't buy that for a second.

I think the reason was his search for ultimate power, in similar fashiom Cell was not created to defeat Goku, he was just created for the sake of making the strongest possible android
Same reasoning could be applied to 17/18 and 16 creation.

Gero after all thought his and 19s power would have been enough to defeat Goku

[Overlord78]

Toyotaro, in his manga, is doing an excellent job

In terms of power level consistency he is definitely not doing an excellent job, I would say ok at best. There are still stupid power scaling issues but at least he's doing a better job than Toei is.

[Cabba]

Toyotaro, in his manga, is doing an excellent job

In terms of power level consistency he is definitely not doing an excellent job, I would say ok at best. There are still stupid power scaling issues but at least he's doing a better job than Toei is.

all of the power level inconsistencies are fixed in the manga the worst offender being U6 fight with Frost

[Overlord78]

Toyotaro, in his manga, is doing an excellent job

In terms of power level consistency he is definitely not doing an excellent job, I would say ok at best. There are still stupid power scaling issues but at least he's doing a better job than Toei is.

all of the power level inconsistencies are fixed in the manga the worst offender being U6 fight with Frost

Maybe in the U6 arc but that made the entire arc a joke to me, the only worthwhile contender was Hit and even he was scrub who could have been beaten by Vegeta if he wasn't a dumbass and been at full strength. All that was confirmed to me was the entire arc was a complete waste of time and potential considering we still haven't seen planet salad and the u6 saiyans yet.

The Future Trunks arc still has terrible writing in the manga but not as bad as the anime's.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Nope. Not in the manga at least.

There is no distinction. Pure Boo is officially stated to be the strongest Boo and nowhere is it stated otherwise.

It was stated he was most dangerous not the strongest goku felt he gad a chance to beat kid buu while the mere thought of fighting super buu (no absorption) to him was suicide.

So what? The anime along with official material supplementing the series states that Pure Boo is superior and no source states that Super Boo is superior.

The same statement about Goku losing to Super Boo is in the anime, the same anime that says that Pure Boo is superior. So Goku's statement is irrelevant to Pure Boo's superiority.

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Goku(full power)>Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku. Super Boo is stronger than Goku as he cannot use his full SSJ3 power. When Goku charges his ki for a minute, he is superior.

That's the official hierarchy. Not the "anime power scale", not the "manga power scale". That's what it is on the official level, period.

[Gorou]

It's the price we pay for getting great character interaction/moments/development, emotional moments, and amazing fights that could best even the greatest that Dragon Ball Z had to offer.

Indeed, we paid for a lack of straight-up powerscaling and instead got contextual clues that are still relatively easy to figure out if you look at the intent.

===

I apologize for the sarcasm, it's unbecoming of me, but I feel that it's necessary to get the point across to address this common complaint.

Characters development is superficial and often demeaning for them. Certain characters towards the end of the manga had finished their individual scriptural path and had nothing to say, including the main character, Goku, the renowned combat genius, which now looks like a 5 year hold child, so ignorant that needs instructions about tactics and strategy by his teammates

With Krilin they hav taken a step back. First was degraded, making it a fighter insecure, fearful and inexplicably not accustomed to the battle (what?), Then, in the space of one or two episodes, they magically made more brilliant than it had ever been before, the the same that has killed Freeza on Namek when he could with his Kiezan.

The fights are erratic,fluctuating in quality, and initially poorly designed . The only thing interesting is the slice of life in some filler episodes, but not enough to make me cry, and shout to masterpiece as many do.

[Alee9977]

One theory that came to my mind trying to explain Goku SSB vs Krillin and now Goku SSB vs 17 is maybe that, because SSB requieres a perfect ki control, It allows Goku increase his power as much as he wants and also decrease it in the same way, something that might be difficult for him to do it in his base form. That could explain these two crazy fights but most likely this won't be the case but it could be a good way to explain this.

[Gorou]

all of the power level inconsistencies are fixed in the manga the worst offender being U6 fight with Frost

And for what reasons that battle would be inconsistent exactly?

[Cabba]

Maybe in the U6 arc but that made the entire arc a joke to me, the only worthwhile contender was Hit and even he was scrub who could have been beaten by Vegeta if he wasn't a dumbass and been at full strength. All that was confirmed to me was the entire arc was a complete waste of time and potential considering we still haven't seen planet salad and the u6 saiyans yet.

The Future Trunks arc still has terrible writing in the manga but not as bad as the anime's.

I reckon the U6 arc is not the best work be it manga or anime
But Black arc is done beautifully in the manga, no inconsistencies there

all of the power level inconsistencies are fixed in the manga the worst offender being U6 fight with Frost

And for what reasons that battle would be inconsistent exactly?

Perhaps inconsistent is not the right word but ambiguous, clouded, not executed properly
Goku should have made it clear that he could defeat frost in base form but transform SSJ anyways to show him his superiority. Instead they leave this open to interpretation

One theory that came to my mind trying to explain Goku SSB vs Krillin and now Goku SSB vs 17 is maybe that, because SSB requieres a perfect ki control, It allows Goku increase his power as much as he wants and also decrease it in the same way, something that might be difficult for him to do it in his base form. That could explain these two crazy fights but most likely this won't be the case but it could be a good way to explain this.

This is a great possible explanation to make sense of it ourselves, the problem is toei cant be arsed to explain this in the anime, they just ignore it as if nothing was wrong

[Gorou]

Perhaps inconsistent is not the right word but ambiguous, clouded, not executed properly

Goku should have made it clear that he could frost in base form but transform SSJ anyways to show him his superiority

I get it, but the problem in the manga is another: Vegeta made the figure of fool, that uses, with no real need, the SSJ Blue to overcome Cabba, knowing all the debilitating effects to the new form (drastic power and energy consumption)

That's the only serious mistake of the manga

[pacz360]

There is no distinction. Pure Boo is officially stated to be the strongest Boo and nowhere is it stated otherwise.

It was stated he was most dangerous not the strongest goku felt he gad a chance to beat kid buu while the mere thought of fighting super buu (no absorption) to him was suicide.

So what? The anime along with official material supplementing the series states that Pure Boo is superior and no source states that Super Boo is superior.

The same statement about Goku losing to Super Boo is in the anime, the same anime that says that Pure Boo is superior. So Goku's statement is irrelevant to Pure Boo's superiority.

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Goku(full power)>Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku. Super Boo is stronger than Goku as he cannot use his full SSJ3 power. When Goku charges his ki for a minute, he is superior.

That's the official hierarchy. Not the "anime power scale", not the "manga power scale". That's what it is on the official level, period.

What offcial material states kid buu>super buu?

snip.

I do think similarly
I think a fully charged Goku SS3 would have been as strong as Gohan with the ceveat of Gohan having the edge because his form doesn't drastically drain ki/stamina unlike SS3.
About Goku saying he couldnt beat super buu, was just
1 a lie for plot convenience
2 He didnt have enough time on earth as a dead person to fight him

why would goku lie about not being able to beat super buu?
He had no problem admitting he could beat fat buu yet never mentions he could beat super buu and if he was stronger he wouldn't scream at vegeta to fuse with him if he felt he could beat super buu,plus goku was alive when he made that comment not dead

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

What offcial material states kid buu>super buu?

I already said it. The anime states it and that alone would suffice to prove my stance. The Dragon Book also states that Pure Boo is the strongest and all media(manga & anime) state that Pure Boo's power dropped from cumulatively absorbing the Kai's, so any normal form of Boo that possesses the South and Grand Kai simultaneously are weaker than Pure Boo. That includes Super Boo.

[Bullza]

Just watched the episode with subs and noticed Piccolo saying he'll retrain Gohan's soft weakened body.

So yeah he definitely wasn't at his Ultimate level of strength during the Zen Exhibition then otherwise it wouldn't be weakened. Whether he was as a Super Saiyan is another matter. He might be if he's also about as strong as Fat Buu in Base.

[LowRyder2005]

Is this really turning into a Super Buu vs. Kid Buu thread? Fabulous.

[pacz360]

What offcial material states kid buu>super buu?

I already said it. The anime states it and that alone would suffice to prove my stance. The Dragon Book also states that Pure Boo is the strongest and all media(manga & anime) state that Pure Boo's power dropped from cumulatively absorbing the Kai's, so any normal form of Boo that possesses the South and Grand Kai simultaneously are weaker than Pure Boo. That includes Super Boo.

Show proof from this dragon book mate the anime differs from the manga so super buu > kid buu stands.