Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[The gr]

Yeah, I never got the impression that Tagoma was really Ultimate Gohan level myself.

In fact, according to my calculations, if base Gohan is, for simplicity's sake, twice as strong as a Buu Saga level Piccolo, then he'd be about half as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from that same arc.

He multiplies his power by 50 times with Super Saiyan, which places him around SS2 Gotenks level, perhaps a little stronger.

I have Tagoma (regular or Ginyu-powered) anywhere from Buu Saga SS2 Goku/Vegeta level to Fat Buu's level.

I put Tagoma/Ginyu is as strong as super perfect cell, but still weaker than ssj2 Buu Saga

[Bullza]

Tagoma shouldn't be Ultimate Gohan level.

I do wonder if Super Saiyan Gohan was perhaps Ultimate Gohan level though. When he attacked Tagoma he said he couldn't bring out his full power because he'd been slacking off on his training.

By full power does he mean his previous Ultimate power? Is that why he turned Super Saiyan in order to get that power?

Ultimate Gohan = Super Saiyan Gohan >>> Base Gohan who has weakened over the years and now only has some fraction of that Ultimate power > Piccolo

Maybe. It's not like it's a separate form, it's not something he should have lost completely. If Ultimate Gohan was 100% of his potential then perhaps he's down to like 20% of his potential now and transforming puts him back up to 100%.

[The gr]

Tagoma shouldn't be Ultimate Gohan level.

I do wonder if Super Saiyan Gohan was perhaps Ultimate Gohan level though. When he attacked Tagoma he said he couldn't bring out his full power because he'd been slacking off on his training.

By full power does he mean his previous Ultimate power? Is that why he turned Super Saiyan in order to get that power?

Ultimate Gohan = Super Saiyan Gohan >>> Base Gohan who has weakened over the years and now only has some fraction of that Ultimate power > Piccolo

Maybe. It's not like it's a separate form, it's not something he should have lost completely. If Ultimate Gohan was 100% of his potential then perhaps he's down to like 20% of his potential now and transforming puts him back up to 100%.

that wouldn't make sense, Gohan was extremely Rusty,I say his ssj1 is around SPC, and not ultimate, tagoma and Gohan are not even close to ultimate, since Herms already debunked that, but you could say Gohan was activating some of that power in episode 80

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I still go with the idea that SS Gohan in RoF was as strong as SS2 Gotenks by "the maths".

That way, Goku, Vegeta, and true form Freeza can be about as strong as SS3 Gotenks in that arc.

[perucho1990]

PLs in the current Arc isnt that bad.

Lets see:

Bergamo>Lavenda>Basil, thats completely logical and seems that no one has an issue with this.

Fat Mr Buu was at most around SSJ3 Goku level because he did much better than him and Vegeta vs Kid Buu.

Base Gohan was shown to be stronger than Buu ,because he was facing someone stronger than Basil in Lavenda.

Gohan thought Krillin was weaker than Basil due to the imaginary training, and now current Krillin I see him around Drugged Basil level at the very least.

Its logical if Piccolo can take current Gohan on, because Piccolo always trains, and I'm starting to believe the reason he lost to Tagoma in FnF was because he never took off his weights(like vs Gero), and not because he was trash.

Piccolo was right when he said everyone understimates him in the U6 Arc.

[Bullza]

that wouldn't make sense, Gohan was extremely Rusty,I say his ssj1 is around SPC, and not ultimate, tagoma and Gohan are not even close to ultimate, since Herms already debunked that, but you could say Gohan was activating some of that power in episode 80

Well he'd still be rusty because his strength would have dropped a ton but if he's able to bring out that power by transforming unlike before then it'd party make sense.

He could still be below Ultimate level though I guess. What I mean is if

Base Gohan = 1

Super Saiyan Gohan = 50

Ultimate Gohan aka just Gohan with all his potential brought out = 1,000

Gohan in the BoG saga after not really training for years but still stronger than Buu = 200

Gohan in the RoF saga even weaker = 100

Super Saiyan Gohan bringing out all that potential - 1,000


In Battle of God's saga he'd logical be weaker than before but still above Fat Buu going by the surprise Piccolo had that Gohan could be defeated so easily even though he saw Beerus beat the others.

In the Resurrection F saga he'd be weaker but he's still above Piccolo. Maybe he could bring out all the power by transforming.

[The gr]

that wouldn't make sense, Gohan was extremely Rusty,I say his ssj1 is around SPC, and not ultimate, tagoma and Gohan are not even close to ultimate, since Herms already debunked that, but you could say Gohan was activating some of that power in episode 80

Well he'd still be rusty because his strength would have dropped a ton but if he's able to bring out that power by transforming unlike before then it'd party make sense.

He could still be below Ultimate level though I guess. What I mean is if

Base Gohan = 1

Super Saiyan Gohan = 50

Ultimate Gohan aka just Gohan with all his potential brought out = 1,000

Gohan in the BoG saga after not really training for years but still stronger than Buu = 200

Gohan in the RoF saga even weaker = 100

Super Saiyan Gohan bringing out all that potential - 1,000


In Battle of God's saga he'd logical be weaker than before but still above Fat Buu going by the surprise Piccolo had that Gohan could be defeated so easily even though he saw Beerus beat the others.

In the Resurrection F saga he'd be weaker but he's still above Piccolo. Maybe he could bring out all the power by transforming.

by that logic tagoma is ultimate tier, you know Gohan just two shotted him and tagoma didn't receive no damage at the sligthlest, keep in mind Gohan base is weak, and a super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier,it wouldn't make sense if his SS form draw out his ultimate power and I remembered Gohan said he can't even use his full power Because he's been slacking off

[LowRyder2005]

PLs in the current Arc isnt that bad.

Lets see:

Bergamo>Lavenda>Basil, thats completely logical and seems that no one has an issue with this.

Fat Mr Buu was at most around SSJ3 Goku level because he did much better than him and Vegeta vs Kid Buu.

Base Gohan was shown to be stronger than Buu ,because he was facing someone stronger than Basil in Lavenda.

Gohan thought Krillin was weaker than Basil due to the imaginary training, and now current Krillin I see him around Drugged Basil level at the very least.

Its logical if Piccolo can take current Gohan on, because Piccolo always trains, and I'm starting to believe the reason he lost to Tagoma in FnF was because he never took off his weights(like vs Gero), and not because he was trash.

Piccolo was right when he said everyone understimates him in the U6 Arc.

Personally, I have my fair share of objections. The only thing we know is that Bergamo should be the the strongest in general terms; this clearly leaves open the possibility that the buffed up Basil could be stronger than a non-buffed Bergamo.

I also don't see Krillin at Basil level and I doubt there's really anything that puts Krillin above his old hundreds of thousands/ low millions estimate. The point the latest episodes tried to send across was that Krillin could keep up with battle smarts (whether it was good or bad writing is up to you), not unlike Piccolo facing Frost.
Lastly, I don't see the point of relying too much on every time the characters exchange some punches unless the visual feats are supported by quotes or other types of secondary confirmations. Judgements should reasonably be based on who gets defeated in all out battles, not on characters having more or less "friendly" spars.

(I mean, supposing we were to take everything seriously, how would the latest Krillin compare to BOG SS3 Goku?)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That's what I've been trying to say in the "How Strong is Base Goku?" thread.

You gotta look at scene intent first and foremost, figure out what the point the creators are trying to get across is, before you even attempt to power-scale.

This is the failing of powerscaling around here, because people assume that it will always come down to this principle when the show's been hitting us over the head with how it's not the single determining factor anymore recently in a martial arts setting. Whether or not they accomplished it well isn't the point, the point is that that's what the intent is.

[TheMikado]

Except that's NOT how the series started. It literally started with a whole new level of power that was so unobtainable and special mortals couldn't even sense it.
No amount of martial arts skill had any effect whatsoever on Beerus. The series didn't then continue in how everyone should become better martial artists it literally instead makes everyone stronger in response to inflating and prioritizing power levels. The fans didn't create this monster and you can't be mad at them when whoever is steering the Super ship decides to switch gears mid stream. Literally the first two arcs are all about reaching an unobtainable level of power.

I'll even say this, the Z portion of Dragonball did power escalation too, however it at least eased us into the concept of more and progressively infathomable power.

[Lord Beerus]

Are we really reimagining Mr.Satan of all people as a "serious" fighter just for the sake of defending Super. I think this is what people mean when they explain that we start reimagining things in the previous series just to fit our narrative of justifying Super. If Mr. Satan was anything but a gag character when it came to fighting, especially against Cell, someone please show me where. As to your point on Cell killing Krillin? You know we have never seen to my knowledge anyone killed via a physical connection unless they were outright sliced in half or decapitated. One of Dragonballs tropes is that characters take a ridiculous amount of damage without dying. We see it all the time it's not unique and nothing new. If Goku accidentally KOed Krillin in SSB you wouldn't hear a peak from anyone, but that's not what happened. Trying to use a not great scenario to justify an even worse one doesn't work. I mean I think the argument is ridiculous, using Mr. Satan of all people. I didn't give a crap that Beerus slapping Bulma and I didn't instantly vaporize her and kill tien or Gotenks. No one ever ever ever ever made those crazy complaints. You're making up arguments that no one made. In Dragonball for whatever reason when characters hit other characters, that don't instantly die unless the user intended it. That's just the way it works, it's a staple and troupe of the series. I'm really not understanding what you're trying to prove with your examples but this is one of the reasons people become even more turned off from the franchise. Every criticism of Super points back to Z for some reason to the point where the argument isn't even coherent anymore.

Do you actually know what a gag character is? It's a character that nobody in-universe takes seriously. Mr Satan is a seen legitimate martial artist, that by his standards, has enhanced strength, speed and combat prowess, and the best pure athlete the planet has to offer. Do you think he won those in the Z-Fighters absences martial arts tournaments by accident? He's legitimately taken seriously by the all of Earth, outside of the main cast who obviously know he's not strong enough to face Cell. So the notion that, "He's just a comedy character, so it doesn't count." is a very flawed excuse. You have to establish that the tone of the arc is playing up the comedic notion that characters can go up to Cell and they'll be okay if he just goes easy on them or else you create a major tonal indifference for the narrative. But we already know how much of deadly character Cell is and how much he doesn't fool around and how much they play up Mr Satan to be an actual legitimate martial artist with no comedic or gag heavy undertones. The story doesn't properly convey Mr Satan to be a Looney Toon-esque character enought to justify Cell swatting Mr Satan into the mountain is meant to be just a gag. And if it still seen as a joke, it's far for lighthearted or gag-like. It crosses over into black comedy.

And as far as character being killed by just punches and kicks, it has happened:
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]
So no. There's no reason to just sweep under the rug the concept of suppressed Perfect Cell not being able to kill Krillin with a single kick as something par for the course, because it's not. It's total bullshit. Especially since earlier in the Cell arc, Imperfect Cell broke Piccolo's damn neck with one punch.

And once again, you miss the main reason for why I brought up the other examples like Cell kicking Krillin, Beerus slapping Bulma and Bootenks kicking Tien. I'm not bring those examples up because people have made complaints about them. It's because they apply to counter argument I'm trying to make in regards to people complaining that because of the huge gap in strength between Krillin and SSJB Goku, that even if Goku was drastically holding back as SSJB, Krillin should have been overwhelmed instantly and should not have performed as well as he did in the circumstances. It must also be pointed out that there's no reason for Goku to all out as SSJB in the first place because he knows he would kill Krillin instantly. That's not the point of Goku going SSJB. It's to see how Krillin would react under intense pressure from a powerful opponent. And besides, they're going to take part in a tournament where no killing is allowed.

Would you think Dr. Gero would be reckless and assume Goku who as a kid destroyed a whole army by himself, couldn't get way more stronger after his battle with Vegeta? Even considering he knew about Kaioken having issues, he would not take any risks. Androids 16, 17 and 18 were failures because they ended being much more powerful than he expected, they were dangerous thus being more difficult to control. You could pretty much assume that Gero himself thought 17 and 18 were way too much to just kill Goku, that's why he turned himself into android and build 19, he thought it would be enough. And no, I'm just providing a reasoning based on the explanation we had in this arc, that clearly you disagree and will keep disagreeing to prove your point "Android 17 being on par with SSJB Goku is not stupid as many things we had in Z" which is not really true.

The whole reason he stopped collecting data once the gang went to Namek is because he didn't think they could get that much stronger. If he did, he would kept the tabs on them once Goku and the gang travelled to space. The Red Ribbon were nothing. The best they could offer at that time was Major Metallitron. And even he couldn't kill Goku. And the whole reason he didn't use Android 17 and 18 wasn't because they were too powerful, it's because they retained human will and were too rebellious. So there was no guarantee they would even focus on killing Goku once they would be activated. The main reason Dr Gero consider any kind of Android a failure is not because they have too much strength, but because their personality is not completely artificial and controllable. It's why he considered Android 16 a failure despite his immense strength; he had too much of a gentle personality. Or why all the Androids from 1 to 12 were destroyed; because they personalities were not completely robotic. Not because they were too powerful.

The sole weakness of the genius Dr. Gero’s inventions was that “personality control” didn’t work well, so that’s believed to be the reason why he changed his methods to using humans who were bad to begin with and remodeling them into Artificial Humans, like Nos. 17 and 18. It was thought that he had succeeded with cyborg-types, but ultimately, these were also failures because they wouldn’t listen to orders the way he wanted. He reversed course again, and No. 19 was his first success.

Nos. 9–12 were entirely artificially constructed. The reason for their failure was the same as Nos. 1–8: almost all had problems with personality control. Too dark, too pure, just plain stupid, etc.

The model for No. 16 was Dr. Gero’s son, who died young long ago. He was a high-ranking soldier in the Red Ribbon Army, but he was felled by an enemy bullet. Having a special place in his heart for his own child, Gero gave No. 16 great power and a fearsome explosive mechanism, but not wanting him to be destroyed in battle if possible, he gave him a gentle personality, which caused No. 16 to become a failure.

I guess you can boil down my complaint to: if bullshit was okay back then, how come it's not now, even if there's a better context for it? And I'll just leave it at that, we'll agree to disagree and not derail the thread any longer.

[perucho1990]

Personally, I have my fair share of objections. The only thing we know is that Bergamo should be the the strongest in general terms; this clearly leaves open the possibility that the buffed up Basil could be stronger than a non-buffed Bergamo.

I also don't see Krillin at Basil level and I doubt there's really anything that puts Krillin above his old hundreds of thousands/ low millions estimate. The point the latest episodes tried to send across was that Krillin could keep up with battle smarts (whether it was good or bad writing is up to you), not unlike Piccolo facing Frost.
Lastly, I don't see the point of relying too much on every time the characters exchange some punches unless the visual feats are supported by quotes or other types of secondary confirmations. Judgements should reasonably be based on who gets defeated in all out battles, not on characters having more or less "friendly" spars.

(I mean, supposing we were to take everything seriously, how would the latest Krillin compare to BOG SS3 Goku?)

Krillin in his mini arc gave him quite a buff, but in the latest episodes, implied he had less brute strength than Gohan but was still capable of defeating him using strategy/tactics, if Krillin was as weak as Gohan thought he was, then he couldve beaten him with a punch.

You cant compare it to Piccolo vs Frost when Frost himself told Piccolo that he doesnt have to worry because he didnt have the strength to kill him due to Goku beating him up,.

BTW I have Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta as an outliner.

Krillin v SSJ3 Goku(BoG version).

Krillin plans defensive, forces Goku to waste stamina, then Taiyokenx100 + Kienzan combo and gg.

[TBMx]

The main complaint around the whole Krillin/SSJB Goku scenario is that because of the huge gap in strength between the two of them, that even when Goku is drastcially holding back as SSJB,

If he's holding back so much, why the can't they show it in his fighting? Goku goes ssj to save himself from ringout against krillin. Then he's grimacing as a SsB and making the "kkkkkkkkkkk" noise as the Japanese VA's like to do when showing effort. Then he has to go "Haaaaah!" to release more power as a SS GOD SS against Krillin. And it looks like hes doing similar against 17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmMhzaF7puM

[Fionordequester]

HOW TO JUSTIFY #17 POTENTIALLY RIVALING GOKU: by Fionordequester

Now, first of all, we don't even know if #17 IS that strong; what we saw barely lasted seconds.

But, if #17 truly has gotten as strong as some fear, then I actually think it makes sense, with some creative thinking. Think about it; most powerful humans seems to have a Power Level of about...10? I think? I think that's what Hercule had? And we can assume that #17 and #18 were fairly powerful as far as regular humans went before getting roboticized. Maybe they had a Power Level of 8 or so? They used to be gang leaders, so they probably did a fair bit of fighting.

So anyway, they get their cybernetics...and now they're suddenly trouncing Super Saiyans! FRICKEN SUPER SAIYANS! We don't know exactly how strong Vegeta was as a Super Saiyan, but let's just say his Power Level was 200,000,000. Just for the sake of argument. And then #18 had a Power Level of 220,000,000 and #17 had 250,000,000.

So take 240,000,000 and divide it by 8. THAT'S A FRICKEN 30,000,000x MULTIPLIER!. That's how potent Gero's cybernetics would've had to be! So imagine taking that same multiplier and applying it to, say, Krillin instead! Krillin had something like...75,000 after getting his boost from Guru?

So multiply 75,000 by 30,000,000 and you get a Power Level of 2,250,000,000,000! You've got a Power Level that is more than 9,000x higher than what #17 had!. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty strong to me!

So my point is this; #17 can still train the human parts of his body. And then his cybernetics would be multiplying whatever gains his human parts were making. So what if that 30,000,000x multiplier is applied to every extra point of Power Level that #17 gets? If an modified human could get 5 Power Level points for eating Broccoli for a week, then #17 would get 150,000,000! If I were to do as many push-ups as I could do for a year gave me 2 Power Level points, then #17 would get 60,000,000! If I were to take up jogging, and that gave me 7 Power Level points after 10 years, then #17 would get 210,000,000! And you get the general idea.

So with all that in mind, is it really a surprise that #17 would be able to gain Saitama levels of strength progression? Is it so unbelievable? Tell me what you all think!

[Lord Beerus]

The main complaint around the whole Krillin/SSJB Goku scenario is that because of the huge gap in strength between the two of them, that even when Goku is drastcially holding back as SSJB,

If he's holding back so much, why the can't they show it in his fighting? Goku goes ssj to save himself from ringout against krillin. Then he's grimacing as a SsB and making the "kkkkkkkkkkk" noise as the Japanese VA's like to do when showing effort. Then he has to go "Haaaaah!" to release more power as a SS GOD SS against Krillin. And it looks like hes doing similar against 17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmMhzaF7puM

Because the intent isn't for Goku to use all his power as SSJB to fight Krillin, or even half, or even a fraction of it, because Goku knows just how much power he would need to overwhelm Krillin. Goku could kill Krillin with the snap of his fingers as a SSJ, but that's not the point he's trying to make or the intent he trying to reflect. The purpose of the utilizing SSJB what to demonstrate just how powerful the opponent he's been facing. This is tournament where you can't kill people. So Goku's not trying to force Krillin in a situation where he facing a God-tier opponent trying to kill with all his/her strength, because that kind of scenario will not happen in the Tournament Of Power. It's a test of Krillin willpower when backed against a wall with a moderately powerful fighter.

[TBMx]

The main complaint around the whole Krillin/SSJB Goku scenario is that because of the huge gap in strength between the two of them, that even when Goku is drastcially holding back as SSJB,

If he's holding back so much, why the can't they show it in his fighting? Goku goes ssj to save himself from ringout against krillin. Then he's grimacing as a SsB and making the "kkkkkkkkkkk" noise as the Japanese VA's like to do when showing effort. Then he has to go "Haaaaah!" to release more power as a SS GOD SS against Krillin. And it looks like hes doing similar against 17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmMhzaF7puM

Because the intent isn't for Goku to use all his power as SSJB to fight Krillin, or even half, or even a fraction of it, because Goku knows just how much power he would need to overwhelm Krillin. Goku could kill Krillin with the snap of his fingers as a SSJ, but that's not the point he's trying to make or the intent he trying to reflect. The purpose of the utilizing SSJB what to demonstrate just how powerful the opponent he's been facing. This is tournament where you can't kill people. So Goku's not trying to force Krillin in a situation where he facing a God-tier opponent trying to kill with all his/her strength, because that kind of scenario will not happen in the Tournament Of Power. It's a test of Krillin willpower when backed against a wall with a moderately powerful fighter.

If that was the intent, they presented that on screen abysmally. He's going to demonstrate just how powerful the opponent he's been facing without using any of blue's power, while looking like he's really trying.

[Noah]

The whole reason he stopped collecting data once the gang went to Namek is because he didn't think they could get that much stronger. If he did, he would kept the tabs on them once Goku and the gang travelled to space. The Red Ribbon were nothing. The best they could offer at that time was Major Metallitron. And even he couldn't kill Goku. And the whole reason he didn't use Android 17 and 18 wasn't because they were too powerful, it's because they retained human will and were too rebellious. So there was no guarantee they would even focus on killing Goku once they would be activated. The main reason Dr Gero consider any kind of Android a failure is not because they have too much strength, but because their personality is not completely artificial and controllable. It's why he considered Android 16 a failure despite his immense strength; he had too much of a gentle personality. Or why all the Androids from 1 to 12 were destroyed; because they personalities were not completely robotic. Not because they were too powerful.
[spoiler]

The sole weakness of the genius Dr. Gero’s inventions was that “personality control” didn’t work well, so that’s believed to be the reason why he changed his methods to using humans who were bad to begin with and remodeling them into Artificial Humans, like Nos. 17 and 18. It was thought that he had succeeded with cyborg-types, but ultimately, these were also failures because they wouldn’t listen to orders the way he wanted. He reversed course again, and No. 19 was his first success.

Nos. 9–12 were entirely artificially constructed. The reason for their failure was the same as Nos. 1–8: almost all had problems with personality control. Too dark, too pure, just plain stupid, etc.

The model for No. 16 was Dr. Gero’s son, who died young long ago. He was a high-ranking soldier in the Red Ribbon Army, but he was felled by an enemy bullet. Having a special place in his heart for his own child, Gero gave No. 16 great power and a fearsome explosive mechanism, but not wanting him to be destroyed in battle if possible, he gave him a gentle personality, which caused No. 16 to become a failure.

[/spoiler]
I guess you can boil down my complaint to: if bullshit was okay back then, how come it's not now, even if there's a better context for it? And I'll just leave it at that, we'll agree to disagree and not derail the thread any longer.

I wasn't arguing about Dr. Gero concluding he shouldn't collect more data on the gang trip to Namek, even if he thought Goku couldn't get much stronger after all this years of research, it would be careless to assume Goku could not have something up his sleeve. The Red Ribbon were nothing? So I don't know why the greatest martial artists at time: Roshi, Krillin and Yamcha were impressed with what Goku have done. One thing does not nullify the other: Toriyama states that 17 and 18 were failures because their rebellious nature but that doesn't change the fact that Gero thought he and 19 would be enough to kill Son Goku, Toriyama also states that 16 being a failure were because of his gentle nature but also doesn't change the fact that he didn't wanted him to activated because his power could threaten the whole world which 17 doubts saying he possesses much higher power, so in the end they could all be included as dangerous not only because their rebellious nature but because of their power.

Better context in Super? Like Vegeta rage boosts, Freeza huge gains and Trunks transformation that came out of nowhere being only attributed to their "great potential"?
I'm not going be biased to say Z was flawless, it really wasn't, but back in the day we had things with at least more thought put on it than Super. I'm not optimistic that we'll get an good explanation in the next episode, but I still hope though

[TBMx]

HOW TO JUSTIFY #17 POTENTIALLY RIVALING GOKU: by Fionordequester



So with all that in mind, is it really a surprise that #17 would be able to gain Saitama levels of strength progression? Is it so unbelievable? Tell me what you all think!

If 17 could do all that, why did Gero need to make Cell to begin with?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

HOW TO JUSTIFY #17 POTENTIALLY RIVALING GOKU: by Fionordequester



So with all that in mind, is it really a surprise that #17 would be able to gain Saitama levels of strength progression? Is it so unbelievable? Tell me what you all think!

If 17 could do all that, why did Gero need to make Cell to begin with?

SCIENCE!

[ekrolo2]

The whole reason he stopped collecting data once the gang went to Namek is because he didn't think they could get that much stronger. If he did, he would kept the tabs on them once Goku and the gang travelled to space. The Red Ribbon were nothing. The best they could offer at that time was Major Metallitron. And even he couldn't kill Goku. And the whole reason he didn't use Android 17 and 18 wasn't because they were too powerful, it's because they retained human will and were too rebellious. So there was no guarantee they would even focus on killing Goku once they would be activated. The main reason Dr Gero consider any kind of Android a failure is not because they have too much strength, but because their personality is not completely artificial and controllable. It's why he considered Android 16 a failure despite his immense strength; he had too much of a gentle personality. Or why all the Androids from 1 to 12 were destroyed; because they personalities were not completely robotic. Not because they were too powerful.
[spoiler]

The sole weakness of the genius Dr. Gero’s inventions was that “personality control” didn’t work well, so that’s believed to be the reason why he changed his methods to using humans who were bad to begin with and remodeling them into Artificial Humans, like Nos. 17 and 18. It was thought that he had succeeded with cyborg-types, but ultimately, these were also failures because they wouldn’t listen to orders the way he wanted. He reversed course again, and No. 19 was his first success.

Nos. 9–12 were entirely artificially constructed. The reason for their failure was the same as Nos. 1–8: almost all had problems with personality control. Too dark, too pure, just plain stupid, etc.

The model for No. 16 was Dr. Gero’s son, who died young long ago. He was a high-ranking soldier in the Red Ribbon Army, but he was felled by an enemy bullet. Having a special place in his heart for his own child, Gero gave No. 16 great power and a fearsome explosive mechanism, but not wanting him to be destroyed in battle if possible, he gave him a gentle personality, which caused No. 16 to become a failure.

[/spoiler]
I guess you can boil down my complaint to: if bullshit was okay back then, how come it's not now, even if there's a better context for it? And I'll just leave it at that, we'll agree to disagree and not derail the thread any longer.

I wasn't arguing about Dr. Gero concluding he shouldn't collect more data on the gang trip to Namek, even if he thought Goku couldn't get much stronger after all this years of research, it would be careless to assume Goku could not have something up his sleeve. The Red Ribbon were nothing? So I don't know why the greatest martial artists at time: Roshi, Krillin and Yamcha were impressed with what Goku have done. One thing does not nullify the other: Toriyama states that 17 and 18 were failures because their rebellious nature but that doesn't change the fact that Gero thought he and 19 would be enough to kill Son Goku, Toriyama also states that 16 being a failure were because of his gentle nature but also doesn't change the fact that he didn't wanted him to activated because his power could threaten the whole world which 17 doubts saying he possesses much higher power, so in the end they could all be included as dangerous not only because their rebellious nature but because of their power.

Better context in Super? Like Vegeta rage boosts, Freeza huge gains and Trunks transformation that came out of nowhere being only attributed to their "great potential"?
I'm not going be biased to say Z was flawless, it really wasn't, but back in the day we had things with at least more thought put on it than Super. I'm not optimistic that we'll get an good explanation in the next episode, but I still hope though

The answer is quite simple: Toriyama had a hierarchy in place even after abandoning PLs as a concept. He clearly knew and conveyed where one character stood in relation to another and tried in some way, shape or form, to excuse when someone went up or down the metaphorical pecking order.

Super has none of this. Future Trunks in Episode 57 is randomly as powerful as Goku then randomly isn't when they go into the second trip into the future. Just like how Vegeta in 63-64 is the strongest of the protagonists until in 65 he randomly isn't anymore and Goku is better than him again (this one REALLY pisses in my cereal because Goku has KK to justifiably explain why he can do better in a beam clash against Merged Zamasu but they don't use it until after this over).

If you applied Super's way of doing things to earlier parts in the series, people would randomly sky rocket then plummet in the pecking order within the same episode. Krillin would get a rage boost from 18 being eaten and shit stomp Cell until he randomly doesn't have it anymore and the series would NEVER acknowledge this happening again.

That's the difference: Toriyama knew where people stood in relation to each other, Super only knows Beerus is vaguely billions of times stronger than ULSSJ4GodBlueRoseLolRaGogetto.