Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[perucho1990]

We could agree that current Krillin could defeat Cell and Dabura mid-difficulty at least.

18 also got stronger while training with Krillin offscreen(IIRC Krillin said 18 is still stronger than her), Tori already mentioned the Androids could get stronger.

[Fionordequester]

If 17 could do all that, why did Gero need to make Cell to begin with?

Safety measures. You don't generally want to put all your eggs in one basket; especially when you're talking about your life-long dream.

[Lord Beerus]

If he's holding back so much, why the can't they show it in his fighting? Goku goes ssj to save himself from ringout against krillin. Then he's grimacing as a SsB and making the "kkkkkkkkkkk" noise as the Japanese VA's like to do when showing effort. Then he has to go "Haaaaah!" to release more power as a SS GOD SS against Krillin. And it looks like hes doing similar against 17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmMhzaF7puM

Because the intent isn't for Goku to use all his power as SSJB to fight Krillin, or even half, or even a fraction of it, because Goku knows just how much power he would need to overwhelm Krillin. Goku could kill Krillin with the snap of his fingers as a SSJ, but that's not the point he's trying to make or the intent he trying to reflect. The purpose of the utilizing SSJB what to demonstrate just how powerful the opponent he's been facing. This is tournament where you can't kill people. So Goku's not trying to force Krillin in a situation where he facing a God-tier opponent trying to kill with all his/her strength, because that kind of scenario will not happen in the Tournament Of Power. It's a test of Krillin willpower when backed against a wall with a moderately powerful fighter.

If that was the intent, they presented that on screen abysmally. He's going to demonstrate just how powerful the opponent he's been facing without using any of blue's power, while looking like he's really trying.

Goku can perfectly control his ki output in SSJB. That's what the SSJB transformation revolves around: perfect Ki control. Goku knows exactly how much strength as SSJB could instantly overwhelm Krillin. Whether it be a fraction. A fraction of a fraction. Or a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. I mean, we see Goku and Vegeta play freakin baseball as Super Saiyan Blue's and they don't kill anyone even in that circumstance. I think Goku is very capable of monitoring how much ki his outputs in any of Super Saiyan form regardless of how strong it is. The point of SSJB being utilized was to send of an impression what kind fighters Krillin may be up against. He's prone to getting nervous even from just sensing immense strength and he's never seriously fought an opponent who as otherworldly or Godly ki. So Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react he faced such an opponent with an intimidating presence and aura to them. That what Goku literally asks Krillin what he do once Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue. And Krillin didn't back down at all much to Goku's surprise.

[TBMx]

Goku can perfectly control his ki out in SSJB.

That's what the SSJB transformation revolves around: perfect Ki control. Goku knows exactly how much strength as SSJB could instantly overwhelm Krillin. Whether it be a fraction. A fraction of a fraction. Or a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. I mean, we see Goku and Vegeta play freakin baseball as Super Saiyan Blue's and they don't kill anyone even in that circumstance. I think Goku is very capable of monitoring how much ki his outputs in any of Super Saiyan form regardless of how strong it is. The point of SSJB being utilized was to send of an impression what kind fighters Krillin may be up against. He's prone to getting nervous even from just sensing immense strength and he's never seriously fought an opponent who as otherworldly or Godly ki. So Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react he faced such an opponent with an intimidating presence and aura to them. That what Goku literally asks Krillin what he do once Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue. And Krillin didn't back down at all much to Goku's surprise.

Actually no, Goku has to be able to perfectly control his ki in order to turn into SSB. Meaning his ki can be controlled arguably even better in base, as he can go kaiokenx20 in base, can't in blue. Again I go back to that Goku holding back is very poorly shown in the episode. This is how a writer who wasn't a complete jackass would have done it. You don't have Goku go ssj earlier and you have Goku smile SMILE when krillin pushes it back. Holding back clearly shown visually without contradiction.. This is dbs, not 2001 a space odyssey.

[Fionordequester]

Actually no, Goku has to be able to perfectly control his ki in order to turn into SSB. Meaning his ki can be controlled arguably even better in base, as he can go kaiokenx20 in base, can't in blue. Again I go back to that Goku holding back is very poorly shown in the episode. This is how a writer who wasn't a complete jackass would have done it. You don't have Goku go ssj earlier and you have Goku smile SMILE when krillin pushes it back. Holding back clearly shown visually without contradiction.. This is dbs, not 2001 a space odyssey.

You don't think maybe the "kkkkkk" noises were him concentrating on holding back? I for example, will regularly play Super Smash Bros. with the kids at the youth center I work at. I've played a lot of Super Smash Bros. in my day though, and while I don't want to throw any matches, I don't want to crush them so badly that they give up; so I'll sometimes dial back my skills a bit without telling the kid. And let me tell you; it's not always easy to do it convincingly.

Perhaps that's what Goku was struggling with? The mental effort needed to dial things back, but not too much? To react to every little increase or decrease in Krillin's Kamehameha?

[LowRyder2005]

Personally, I have my fair share of objections. The only thing we know is that Bergamo should be the the strongest in general terms; this clearly leaves open the possibility that the buffed up Basil could be stronger than a non-buffed Bergamo.

I also don't see Krillin at Basil level and I doubt there's really anything that puts Krillin above his old hundreds of thousands/ low millions estimate. The point the latest episodes tried to send across was that Krillin could keep up with battle smarts (whether it was good or bad writing is up to you), not unlike Piccolo facing Frost.
Lastly, I don't see the point of relying too much on every time the characters exchange some punches unless the visual feats are supported by quotes or other types of secondary confirmations. Judgements should reasonably be based on who gets defeated in all out battles, not on characters having more or less "friendly" spars.

(I mean, supposing we were to take everything seriously, how would the latest Krillin compare to BOG SS3 Goku?)

Krillin in his mini arc gave him quite a buff, but in the latest episodes, implied he had less brute strength than Gohan but was still capable of defeating him using strategy/tactics, if Krillin was as weak as Gohan thought he was, then he couldve beaten him with a punch.

You cant compare it to Piccolo vs Frost when Frost himself told Piccolo that he doesnt have to worry because he didnt have the strength to kill him due to Goku beating him up,.

BTW I have Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta as an outliner.

Krillin v SSJ3 Goku(BoG version).

Krillin plans defensive, forces Goku to waste stamina, then Taiyokenx100 + Kienzan combo and gg.

I can definitely agree he got somewhat stronger, but there's the usual matter of suspension of disbelief getting in the way if you talk about gigantic improvements. Unless I've got a clear confirmation (i.e. clear character's words; actual feats) I believe it's rather hard to argue that Krillin got dozens/ hundreds of times stronger in a short timespan by doing... well, some regular training on his own.
Very specific circumstances aside, at the moment there are no real feats which would make putting Krillin at base Gohan level compulsory, as well. He and Gohan exchanged a couple of punches when the latter was reportedly going easy (and still managed to give him a sound beating). Krillin then made Gohan trip with an extemporaneous technique.

I mean, I can't even see this as a Spider-Man vs. Firelord type of scenario, because it's not like Krillin gave an openly "serious" Gohan trouble, nor is it said he would win through brute strength. The only thing I can see as relevant would be the beam clash with SSB Goku, but it doesn't make that much sense anyway when taken at facevalue (Krillin most certainly isn't inteded to be stronger than the upper tiers of Z) and needs to be justified with some contrived logic anyway. So, all in all, I'm not convinced there's an actual need to put Krillin any higher than he previously was. If not marginally, that is.

Goku can perfectly control his ki output in SSJB. That's what the SSJB transformation revolves around: perfect Ki control. Goku knows exactly how much strength as SSJB could instantly overwhelm Krillin.

That's more or less my idea as well. In-universe, it definitely makes much, much more sense for a plethora of reasons. I'd safely say Goku wanting to motivate/spur Krillin with some smoke and mirrors while showing off his most intimidating form definitely appears like a much more credible scenario. That may apply to #17's case as well.

But anyway, I still think that the best way to approach this is to think of TOEI as people who are not as picky as us when it comes to powerscaling. It shows much more often now that they have more control over everything (they did have Krillin fighting Imperfect Cell somewhat valiantly back in the day, didn't they?). Yet, I don't think even they would assert that current Krillin would beat Final Form Freeza, Cell or Buu. They'd just say something like "we made it to show that Krillin is still a weakling compared to Goku", not "we want to show that Krillin is super strong compared to his old self". There's a subtle, but a very important difference in tone.
The matter of fact, as far as I'm concerned, is that the gaps between characters have become so gargantuan that they can't write anything without Goku/ Vegeta + über powerful new foe unless they made the effect of those proportions softer and less overwhelming. "Plot convenience" is another term for the process, but it doesn't necessarily mean we are supposed to take the characters as drastically more powerful than before.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku can perfectly control his ki output in SSJB.

That's what the SSJB transformation revolves around: perfect Ki control. Goku knows exactly how much strength as SSJB could instantly overwhelm Krillin. Whether it be a fraction. A fraction of a fraction. Or a fraction of a fraction of a fraction. I mean, we see Goku and Vegeta play freakin baseball as Super Saiyan Blue's and they don't kill anyone even in that circumstance. I think Goku is very capable of monitoring how much ki his outputs in any of Super Saiyan form regardless of how strong it is. The point of SSJB being utilized was to send of an impression what kind fighters Krillin may be up against. He's prone to getting nervous even from just sensing immense strength and he's never seriously fought an opponent who as otherworldly or Godly ki. So Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react he faced such an opponent with an intimidating presence and aura to them. That what Goku literally asks Krillin what he do once Goku turns Super Saiyan Blue. And Krillin didn't back down at all much to Goku's surprise.

Actually no, Goku has to be able to perfectly control his ki in order to turn into SSB. Meaning his ki can be controlled arguably even better in base, as he can go kaiokenx20 in base, can't in blue. Again I go back to that Goku holding back is very poorly shown in the episode. This is how a writer who wasn't a complete jackass would have done it. You don't have Goku go ssj earlier and you have Goku smile SMILE when krillin pushes it back. Holding back clearly shown visually without contradiction.. This is dbs, not 2001 a space odyssey.

To maintain the SSJB form you have to prevent ki from leaking out, which require an absolute mastery of ki control and considering he could apply the Kaioken on top of blue and even amplify the Kaioken 10 fold and still fight as a SSJB against Hit. I think it's safe to safe he's mastered the art of ki control in regards to utilizing his SSJB form where he can perfectly managed how much ki he expends to be able to use dangerous and risky techniques like the Kaioken on top of his SSJB form and not have to worry about wasting so much ki that he can't maintain SSJB after the effects of the Kaioken expire.

[TheMikado]

So because of a single line stating the SSB has excellent Ki control, means he has now perfected the use of ki to where he can do whatever he wants with it even if it stated or implied? I'm pretty sure that was never stated as one of his powers or abilities. The most Goku has even been able to suppress hi Ki was about 5% his base. What evidence do we have that he can surpress it further in a more powerful form, short of FSSJ and that took a ton of practice to perfect. They were accidentally breaking things left and right.

[Bullza]

Well Beerus can suppress his Ki so that he can slap Bulma and she can survive. Maybe Super Saiyan Blue Goku can do something similar and he simply matched Krillin.

It's not like people have much of a choice but to accept that's how it was.

Blue Goku used a Kamehameha that stood up to and then surpassed Merged Zamasu's blast. Krillin is weaker than Android 18.

There was a beam clash, for some bizarre reason it wasn't a wipe out but he obviously had to have held back because Krillin isn't God tier. Blame it on poor writing if you want. Android 18 simply kicked it away so how powerful could it be?

Some people had Bergamo for being God Tier but he may have been nowhere close and it could just be another similar scenario.

Likewise Krillin defeated Gohan because of strategy and people can sort of accept that and yet the whole idea that Piccolo used strategy and it was why he was possibly able to defeat Frost was heavily debated for months.

[ZombieVito]

Likewise Krillin defeated Gohan because of strategy and people can sort of accept that and yet the whole idea that Piccolo used strategy and it was why he was possibly able to defeat Frost was heavily debated for months.

Not comparable.

Kuririn couldn't block a single punch from Gohan.
Kuririn won by a ring out. Piccolo was going for a K.O.

[SaiyanGod117]

Goku going SSB to better control his power holds no weight. Because one of the prerequisites to attain SSB is learning to nullify Ki-leakage (Perfect Ki Control) while in base. So he should be able to utilize this perfect Ki control in any form. Plus it's not like Goku ever had a problem holding back, there really shouldn't be any reason for him to be going SSB. But I'll wait till the episode comes out, because those NEPs can be misleading.

[Cabba]

For me was a great case of ingenuity by Vegeta. After two opponents as Botamo or Magetta, both equipped with special skills and insidious powers, it should have foresight, and anticipate the use of other special powers, especially to the most powerful warrior of the 6th universe.

This is the only flaw of a manga carried out with great diligence, which is proving to be much better than the anime, where Toriyama is much less involved

Put it this way: Vegeta cared more about his fellow Saiyan that he was willing to risk/sacrifice his next battle and he knew Goku was next anyways
How do you know how much input Toriyama has on the anime vs manga. He makes the main script/story after that Toei and Toyo fill the blanks. For all we know Toyotaro is satying closer to source materia while Toei takes more freedom with it

If you want to blame somebody, blame toei

Did we read the same manga? "Future Trunks arc" is much worse in the manga in every aspect (it shouldn't even be called FT arc but Vegeta arc in the anime), especially power scaling which is even more inconsistent:
- Black as a SSJ is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, but in his base he's stronger than SSJ2 Trunks who is on par with SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta also comments how it was obvious Trunks couldn't handle Black.
- With a single Zenkai Black surpasses SSJ2 Vegeta (I like the reasoning) and then turns Rosè and is a lot stronger than everyone. But Trunks, who is weaker than his base, can still touch him, in the anime all Trunks did before achieving his new form was just kicking him ONCE (after a rage boost) and I still see people complaining about it.

You are confused, and i think you need to reread the manga. Most of your issues with the manga come from your lack of understanding of the power tiers
To start off lets make the power tiers clear
Trunks SS2= As strong as regular SS3
Vegeta SS2=Vegeto Tier

Second: base Black might very well be stronger than a regular SS3. You are confusing Trunks and Vegeta power level: In the manga Vegeta SS2 around Vegeto tier
Third: In the manga it is implied Trunks fought Black SS2: "Its been a long time since I seen him do that" perhaps a time when Black was weaker

Trunks was helpless against black, all he did was pull a surprise attack on black after that he got pummeled. Same thing happened in the anime, with trunks pulling a surprise attack on Black on the very first episode of the arc
Worse inconsistencies are happening now in the anime and have happened on the black arc anime. One surprise attack does not make the manga "much worse in every aspect" as you so eloquently put it

- Vegeta after training in the ROSAT isn't much stronger, as Black comments, but he is able to beat Black by using a stupid form he recently achieved (which he should already have in the manga continuity) by turning Blue only when he attacks? Because Vegeta was able to overcome Blue's weakness of losing energy each time he uses it. Doesn't it sound like an extremely bullshit reason just to draw Vegeta as a Super Saiyan God? And how the hell can he beat Black who was stronger than him as a mere SSJ if he hasn't improved much at all? And couldn't he master Super Saiyan Blue so it doesn't drain any stamina, instead of pulling this stupid stunt?

Where did you get the idea that Vegeta didn't get stronger? and how would black know anyway? He made that comment while Vegeta was on a relaxed base state. It doesnt say either way, he might very well have gotten strong but still not enough to beat black, anyway you are missing the point here.

The main point here was that by harnessing/focusing SSB energy and releasing it in bursts he was able to momentary surpass black and Vegeta did this so wonderfully by puling time and time again that even goku complimented him and said it must have taken some extreme training, which also explains why Goku saved SSB for the very last second when he was fighting Hit. The point here is that the only way to use SSB max power is by instantly releasing in a explosion of power. All of this is actually explained on the manga which is why i think you need to re read it but properly this time

It is implied the moment you transform SSB you start losing energy, what Vegeta (and Goku to a lesser degree) did was release fully charged blue in the key moment of battle, Vegeta mastered this by doing time and time again without losing energy. Its actually quite ingenious and perfectly executed, and nice breath of fresh air over mere power ups. They might very well perfect SSB, but i think they are saving this for latter arc as another way to power up the characters

BTW i dont understand your complain about Vegetas role in this arc- Trunks has a important role, just because he is not fighting does not make it insignificant. Its quite refreshing to have Vegeta as the lead fighter for once in the series

So it's not like they can only hold back whilst in Base form, they should be able to hold back in all their forms. He seemingly held back against Krillin.

I think this much is accepted, you can hold back in all your transformation
The crux here is can you hold back to base form levels or lower while transformed?

Also brings the question, why transform SSB if you are going to hold back so much as to go below base form levels? Or if you must transform why not go SSJ

[ChiefWamsutta]

Not comparable.

Kuririn couldn't block a single punch from Gohan.
Kuririn won by a ring out. Piccolo was going for a K.O.

I have been looking into the idea of a strong Base for Goku. Do you believe that Base Goku fighting Slim Buu was Goku using his SSG Base? I think it would make sense as Slim Buu was shown to be incredibly powerful.

Where would you personally put Slim Buu? I had him just below Super Saiyan Vegito (Buu Arc). Also, where would you put Krillin (Universe Survival Arc)? I had him just above Botamo.

[Bullza]

I think this much is accepted, you can hold back in all your transformation
The crux here is can you hold back to base form levels or lower while transformed?

Well he wouldn't really have to be suppressing the forms power itself down to that Base level, he'd just be putting out a minimal fraction of what he was actually capable of with that Kamehameha.

Super Saiyan God Goku was supposed to be that enormously powerful that his Kamehameha was implied to have enough power to wipe out the entire Universe, just the sheer shockwaves from it where shaking the entire Earth and reaching other realms.

He obviously didn't fire anything remotely comparable to that at Krillin. Like I said Android 18 kicked away Goku's Kamehameha like it was nothing, similar to when Frieza kicked away Vegeta's blast once.

She'd never be able to do anything like that to the Kamehameha's that he used against Beerus, Frieza, Hit or Zamasu. Zamasu couldn't knock it away with a big blast of his own.

Also brings the question, why transform SSB if you are going to hold back so much as to go below base form levels? Or if you must transform why not go SSJ

That one I haven't got a clue. I have no idea why he needed to go any further past Super Saiyan. It obviously wouldn't be because he needed to but I don't know what other reason it would be.

[ZombieVito]

I have been looking into the idea of a strong Base for Goku. Do you believe that Base Goku fighting Slim Buu was Goku using his SSG Base? I think it would make sense as Slim Buu was shown to be incredibly powerful.

Where would you personally put Slim Buu? I had him just below Super Saiyan Vegito (Buu Arc). Also, where would you put Krillin (Universe Survival Arc)? I had him just above Botamo.

- If they still take EoZ as canon then regular base Goku can't be stronger than Pure Boo. He should be way weaker currently.
- I honestly don't think Boo got that strong. I'm contemplating in only having him regain the power he lost when Pure Evil Boo appeared.
- I have Kuririn currently at 1 million. I would love to put him higher but there's no prove he's that much stronger as of now.

[Helios518]

So because of a single line stating the SSB has excellent Ki control, means he has now perfected the use of ki to where he can do whatever he wants with it even if it stated or implied? I'm pretty sure that was never stated as one of his powers or abilities. The most Goku has even been able to suppress hi Ki was about 5% his base. What evidence do we have that he can surpress it further in a more powerful form, short of FSSJ and that took a ton of practice to perfect. They were accidentally breaking things left and right.

Didn't Future Trunks (1st encounter) suppressed his power down to like 5 (That's like 0.0002% of his power)? I'm sure Goku is much more experienced than Future Trunks at that point.

[Gorou]

And as far as character being killed by just punches and kicks, it has happened:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

A kicks by a Goku that was using his 100% immediately.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

A punch given by a Goku that was using all his energy in a ultimate desperate attack.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

A punch by a Boo CLEARLY intent to KILL his previus master, act to prevent any ulterior threat by him.

Imperfect Cell broke Piccolo's damn neck with one punch.

An imperfect Cell at his maximum strength, that was not playing at all in that moment.

P.Cell was at full power when he kicked Krillin? No, was awfully suppress, and Krillin, after that blow, was half dead.

Put it this way: Vegeta cared more about his fellow Saiyan that he was willing to risk/sacrifice his next battle and he knew Goku was next anyways
How do you know how much input Toriyama has on the anime vs manga. He makes the main script/story after that Toei and Toyo fill the blanks. For all we know Toyotaro is satying closer to source materia while Toei takes more freedom with it

If you want to blame somebody, blame toei

No, no, you're right. But it is partially incorrect say "for all we know." Toyotaro is undoubtedly much closer to Toriyama's thought, in any point, in fact, the manga is supervised directly by him, while the anime's writers take a lot more freedom on "their" series.

Generally there is no comparison between the two products.

[TheMikado]

I think this much is accepted, you can hold back in all your transformation
The crux here is can you hold back to base form levels or lower while transformed?

Well he wouldn't really have to be suppressing the forms power itself down to that Base level, he'd just be putting out a minimal fraction of what he was actually capable of with that Kamehameha.

Super Saiyan God Goku was supposed to be that enormously powerful that his Kamehameha was implied to have enough power to wipe out the entire Universe, just the sheer shockwaves from it where shaking the entire Earth and reaching other realms.

He obviously didn't fire anything remotely comparable to that at Krillin. Like I said Android 18 kicked away Goku's Kamehameha like it was nothing, similar to when Frieza kicked away Vegeta's blast once.

She'd never be able to do anything like that to the Kamehameha's that he used against Beerus, Frieza, Hit or Zamasu. Zamasu couldn't knock it away with a big blast of his own.

Also brings the question, why transform SSB if you are going to hold back so much as to go below base form levels? Or if you must transform why not go SSJ

That one I haven't got a clue. I have no idea why he needed to go any further past Super Saiyan. It obviously wouldn't be because he needed to but I don't know what other reason it would be.

I think this is all anyone is saying. Why go SSB against Krillin, just to hold back to below the implied base levels in Super. Especially since we have actually seen Goku hit Krillin fairly recently.
But to be fair we also have this which is also pretty random lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TM7XMr1WNI

Then we have this even more bizarre exchange with Goku hitting krillin one time in base which Krillin even powering up.. Its so weird. Krillin literally went unconscious and looked beat to Hell against a single punch from base Goku.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRp7IBXbqnU

I was being very generous saying that SSJ3 would be enough since that's the last form he can actually properly sense of Goku's. But like I keep saying its whatever at this point.

[The gr]

We could agree that current Krillin could defeat Cell and Dabura mid-difficulty at least.

18 also got stronger while training with Krillin offscreen(IIRC Krillin said 18 is still stronger than her), Tori already mentioned the Androids could get stronger.

Nah, krillin is still below Namek frieza, but strong as 60,000,000, and #18 , I say she is still in the Same level as #17 during his fight with​ piccolo.

[Bullza]

Krillin should be weaker than Base Goku at the start of the series who was below Namek Frieza.

At best I could see characters like him and Tien being at Suppressed Frieza levels. The millions sure, maybe even the tens of millions. Going by just Toei they had Tien close to Base Future Trunks.