If Dragonball Z came back on TV would Bruce Faulconer Music come back?

[MajinMan]

The English dub of Z is not good. The dubs of GT and DB are a bit better, but still are not good dubs. When people argue and defend the original dubs (mostly Z, to be honest), they need to realize that while they may prefer the dub and its score, it does not mean that it is necessarily good.

Calling the dub objectively bad is a very provable statement. It all comes down to what a good dub is. A good dub in my eyes needs to be accurate to the original, have at least decent voice acting (nothing spectacular), keeping the original intent of the creator intact, being true to the characters (voices and characterization), and in Dragon Ball's case, not changing the music. If a dub at least does most of these decently well, you can call it a good dub. The Z dub specifically fails on pretty much every category and some of them miserably.

Here's the important part. None of this means that you cannot like the dub more. It just means that you need to accept as a fan that you like an objectively bad product. I grew up with the dub like most English speaking fans, but I chose to let go of nostalgia and bias because of the low quality of the dubs. If you are a dub fan and do not care about any of that, then all the power to you. Nobody is forcing you to switch (hopefully), but you need to accept that the product that you enjoy so much is indeed a bad product.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

As far as the "objectively bad" comments go, it all depends on what criteria you're using. Is the criteria "how accurate is this to the original Japanese version"? If so, then you can probably argue with a good deal of objectivity. But if the criteria is "how entertaining is what I'm watching", then it all gets a bit more subjective. I think ABED is using the former criteria whereas Kokonoe (and I guess myself) are going by the latter.

You're pretty much right, I think, but there's a fundamental problem with going into any depth using entertainment value as criteria to judge anything; You can't get passed opinions. That's fine if you want to stop there, but it's terribly boring to run around giving opinions all day, so most of us want to make genuine quality judgements. It's not just "how accurate is this to the original Japanese version" either, as you seem to suggest. There's the flow created by the proper dialogue, music, and sound effects, which Kai measurably handles better. There's the attempt at natural, flavorful vocal inflection, which Kai (mostly) handles better. There's the coherence of dialogue, which Kai measurably handles better. ABED wasn't arguing this out of nowhere, there are obvious signals that the Kai dub projects that will make most people (adults, more consistently) identify something as good or bad, but it is fair to note that there is an exception to most rules, so maybe certain inflections in the old dub click with you and Konokoe in some way that it doesn't for everyone else, but regardless, there are objective criteria by which we can argue that Kai is a better dub.

[Kokonoe]

Here's the important part. None of this means that you cannot like the dub more. It just means that you need to accept as a fan that you like an objectively bad product. I grew up with the dub like most English speaking fans, but I chose to let go of nostalgia and bias because of the low quality of the dubs. If you are a dub fan and do not care about any of that, then all the power to you. Nobody is forcing you to switch (hopefully), but you need to accept that the product that you enjoy so much is indeed a bad product.

I won't, because I don't agree with your or others view that it is. I'm not going to accept something just because someone is telling me objective this, objective that, when I've thought of those angles and don't even agree with the foundation of those 100%. I can see why someone can come to that conclusion, but their view is not any more correct than what I was explaining earlier.

All of this can really be span the other way, but I haven't done that yet. You for sure know if I did I'd be talking about Adult Goku's voice and criticizing that immensely and mentioning how it doesn't fit an adult male, however each person may say "but it represents his personality!!". At the end of the day, all of these are opinions, just with different reasonings.

[ABED]

No, it doesn't exactly fit an adult male, but it fits Goku's personality to a T and fits the artwork.

[jjgp1112]

Despite opinions being subjective, there certainly is an objective scale of standards that most creative works seek to follow, and the Z dub misses the mark on a lot of those standards, particularly on. Too often we hide behind subjectivity to avoid making a strong case for why we like something. If we truly thought opinions were were just opinions we wouldn't be arguing about them to begin with !

Now whether you like it or not is one thing, and I don't knock anyone who does because I generally enjoy most of the dub too, but it's a fact that the Z dub used complete amateurs who didn't display much acting skills. The deliveries, inflections, and general tone fall short of the type of work is generally considered acceptable.

It's a fact that they made changes to the script, some more radical than others, that altered the story and themes of the show.

It's a fact that they changed the original score - a kung-fu flavored score to match a kung-fu flavored series - for rather cynical marketing reasons.

The goal of a dub should be to adapt the series into another language, and with all of the changes Funimation made to the script and music, they failed to do to that with their original dub. Again, whether you like it or not is one thing, but to some extent it's a misrepresentation of the actual Dragon Ball material, so it would do you well to understand why some Dragon Ball fans would be diametrically opposed to it just on principle.

[8000 Saiyan]

In the end, I think it's fine for people to like the old Funimation dub, if they acknowledge its flaws. I like the old Saban-Ocean dub, despite acknowledging that it has a terrible script and unnecessary censorship.

[Zephyr]

I do have to ask, though: do you think that Kikuchi's score was also inappropriate for pre-Z Dragon Ball? Would that series have benefited, in your view, with something like the Faulconer Productions score?

I ask, because again, I think crux of the disagreement, as it tends to go when I observe or participate in these discussions, seems to be that Kikuchi was fine in Dragon Ball, but something about Dragon Ball Z is apparently just so distinctly different so as to warrant an utterly alien sounding score. If you think that Dragon Ball also should have had a soundtrack pulled straight from Vectorman, I'll just....agree to disagree. However, if you think that Kikuchi was totally fine for Dragon Ball, yet absolutely not for Z, then you're going to have to defend that position. And more often than not, the contrasts that are brought up between the "two" series in order to justify this polar opposite approach to musical scoring seem to be based on incorrect generalizations of both halves of Toriyama's story.

Oh, there is a misconception. Me using a bit of criticism towards something doesn't mean I dislike the OST overall or feel it is unfitting as I actually do like Kikuchi's score and feel it fits in its own way.

So to clarify, you're saying that you believe that the Faulconer score simply fits better than the Kikuchi score, not that it wholesale fits while Kikuchi's does not? Assuming this is your position, allow me to rephrase my prior question: do you believe that the Faulconer score likewise would fit better, had it been applied, than Kikuchi's for pre-Z Dragon Ball?

[ABED]

Despite opinions being subjective, there certainly is an objective scale of standards that most creative works seek to follow

That's been my view for a while. There are so many aspects of a piece of art and each aspect is going to vary in quality. There's no way to objectively weigh each of those elements compared to each other.

[Kokonoe]

I do have to ask, though: do you think that Kikuchi's score was also inappropriate for pre-Z Dragon Ball? Would that series have benefited, in your view, with something like the Faulconer Productions score?

I ask, because again, I think crux of the disagreement, as it tends to go when I observe or participate in these discussions, seems to be that Kikuchi was fine in Dragon Ball, but something about Dragon Ball Z is apparently just so distinctly different so as to warrant an utterly alien sounding score. If you think that Dragon Ball also should have had a soundtrack pulled straight from Vectorman, I'll just....agree to disagree. However, if you think that Kikuchi was totally fine for Dragon Ball, yet absolutely not for Z, then you're going to have to defend that position. And more often than not, the contrasts that are brought up between the "two" series in order to justify this polar opposite approach to musical scoring seem to be based on incorrect generalizations of both halves of Toriyama's story.

Oh, there is a misconception. Me using a bit of criticism towards something doesn't mean I dislike the OST overall or feel it is unfitting as I actually do like Kikuchi's score and feel it fits in its own way.

So to clarify, you're saying that you believe that the Faulconer score simply fits better than the Kikuchi score, not that it wholesale fits while Kikuchi's does not? Assuming this is your position, allow me to rephrase my prior question: do you believe that the Faulconer score likewise would fit better, had it been applied, than Kikuchi's for pre-Z Dragon Ball?

Yes, that is pretty much my view. I feel they all fit, just I feel Faulconer's fits more so.

To be honest, I've never thought about using Faulconer's OST for Dragon Ball. I'd say the current OST isn't suited, but if Faulconer Productions were to create an original score for it, I'd have faith that it'd be good. Either or not it'd be better than Kikuchi's (to me) is unknown as it's a hypothetical score that has never been heard.

[Zephyr]

Despite opinions being subjective, there certainly is an objective scale of standards that most creative works seek to follow

That's been my view for a while. There are so many aspects of a piece of art and each aspect is going to vary in quality. There's no way to objectively weigh each of those elements.

Yeah. To put it another way: values are subjective. Which value is better than others is a matter purely of subjectivity. However, we can objectively measure the degree to which a piece of art or a product successfully captures one value or another.

To put it another way still: which ends are best to pursue is a subjective matter; which means are best to use toward any given end is an objective matter.

[thaman91]

Calling the dub objectively bad is a very provable statement. It all comes down to what a good dub is. A good dub in my eyes needs to be accurate to the original, have at least decent voice acting (nothing spectacular), keeping the original intent of the creator intact, being true to the characters (voices and characterization), and in Dragon Ball's case, not changing the music. If a dub at least does most of these decently well, you can call it a good dub. The Z dub specifically fails on pretty much every category and some of them miserably.

In other words, it's only objectively bad based on a subjectively determined criteria. And that's why this kind of argument becomes circular.

You're pretty much right, I think, but there's a fundamental problem with going into any depth using entertainment value as criteria to judge anything; You can't get passed opinions. That's fine if you want to stop there, but it's terribly boring to run around giving opinions all day, so most of us want to make genuine quality judgements. It's not just "how accurate is this to the original Japanese version" either, as you seem to suggest.

I get what you're saying. Mostly, I just took issue with what I sensed to be the sentiment of "Oh you think X is good? No, you're wrong, that's just your nostalgia talking". Maybe that's not what people were saying though, and I might have misunderstood.

There's the flow created by the proper dialogue, music, and sound effects, which Kai measurably handles better, there's the attempt at natural, flavorful vocal inflection, which Kai (mostly) handles better.

Who gets to decide what constitutes "proper dialogue, music, and sound effects"? I could just as easily say that the old dub achieves a unique flow due to its altered dialogue, musical differences, and tonal differences from the original. Unless, "proper" means "more fitting".....but then I guess "more fitting" takes it back to how accurate it is to the original...which is a pretty subjective criteria when determining how good something is.

There's the coherence of dialogue, which Kai measurably handles better. ABED wasn't arguing this out of nowhere, there are obvious signals that the Kai dub projects that will make most people (adults, more consistently) identify something as good or bad, but it is fair to note that there is an exception to most rules, so maybe certain inflections in the old dub click with you and Konokoe in some way that it doesn't for everyone else, but regardless, there are objective criteria by which we can objectively argue that Kai is a better dub.

How do you even define "coherence of dialogue"? Are you saying that the Kai dialogue makes more sense, or that the old dub's dialogue is not coherent? Do you really listen to it and not understand what it's trying to say? Let's compare two lines in the old dub vs. the Kai dub, shall we?

Old dub, Vegeta says: "Let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear?!"
Kai dub, Vegeta says: "I am curious, are androids capable of feeling anything akin to real fear?!"

To me, the Kai line is more clunky. And the Kai dub is full of these kinds of lines. Maybe they're more true to the original versions of the characters, but I think that they're sometimes too sophisticated and information-heavy, and sound somewhat unnatural, despite the better voice acting.

To address your point about the "obvious signals that the Kai dub projects that will make most people (adults, more consistently) identify something as good or bad"......well, what exactly are these signals? And how do you know that "most people" will identify those specific signals as good? Additionally, just because "the majority" likes something, does not mean that it is good or better than something else. For example, Hollywood studios often soullessly construct movies that are designed to appeal to as many movie-goers as possible; so if the majority of these movie-goers liked this movie (as it was callously manufactured to accomplish) while a minority see it as a pandering cash-grab, who is "objectively" correct? I mean, these minority critics, despite their "objective" knowledge of film now find themselves on the other side of the "what most adults think" fence. So really, the "most people" argument doesn't work either.

And just to clarify my position, I love the Kai dub. I love that it's more true to the original Japanese version in terms of script accuracy and tone. I like that I can watch it and pretty much say that I'm watching the same Goku as someone who might be watching it in Japanese. And, despite my issues with how the dialogue sounds sometimes, I can simultaneously enjoy the extra information I'm being given to flesh out these characters. The show with its original Japanese spirit (which I guess the Kai dub has) is a truly enjoyable experience.

As far as the old dub goes, I am willing to acknowledge that it's not accurate (dialogue, tone, music, etc.), the acting starts off as very amateur, and there are often corny lines (even though that's a subjective preference). I'd even go as far as to say that it's a completely different show. But you know what? I'm still going to call it "good" (I'm speaking about the entire product, not just the dub itself). When I'm watching Superman Goku, I know that it's not actually who Goku is. I know that Freeza is actually supposed to be an upperclass sophisticated dictator. But I don't really care. I found the old dub versions of these characters to be very compelling. I know that lots of corny jokes aren't supposed to be there; but they fit well with the dub music (these two aspects of the dub complement each other rather well, I think).

[Kokonoe]

^ Nice post, thaman91.

Anyway, I view the series like this.

Most accurate anime script = JPN (or JPN Kai)
Best voices for the series overall = Funimation Dub Season 3 an onward + Orange Bricks dub for early.
Best soundtrack for the series overall = Faulconer Productions
Most accurate script for ENG Dub = Funimation Kai

In all honesty, even the anime isn't 100% faithful to the manga in many ways as well. If you really want the most accuracy, read the manga for the most accurate experience.

[ABED]

The anime is VERY close to the manga. It rarely deviates. The biggest change is the filler.

[NintendoBlaze53]

Usually quality can be gauged by looking at competitors. This is how Oscars usually decide what is Best Picture. So lets look at dubs which aired the same time as DBZ and see if it holds a candle to them. The first things I can think of that aired along side DBZ are Cowboy Bebop and Yu Yu Hakusho. And in every way possible both those dubs blow the DBZ dub out of the water. How is it possible Yu Yu Hakusho could be dubbed so right, yet DBZ failed when it came out only 2 years prior and from the same company? In every single way, the acting in DBZ S3-5 is abysmal. The script is abysmal. You can like it all you want, but in the context of the dubbing industry at the time of 1999-2002, DBZ's dub is a bad product, just as Sailor Moon's old dub which aired at the same time is a bad product. Both these shows got redubs in a way, and as far as I know, the Viz Sailor Moon dub is considered by all to be superior. So all I can think is that DBZ dub fans really don't understand how subconscious nostalgia can be in someones mind.

[Kokonoe]

So all I can think is that DBZ dub fans really don't understand how subconscious nostalgia can be in someones mind.

Or maybe that sub fans need to grow up and realize not everyone is gonna share their view.

[Gokuisasuperhero]

So all I can think is that DBZ dub fans really don't understand how subconscious nostalgia can be in someones mind.

Or maybe that sub fans need to grow up and realize not everyone is gonna share their view.

Someone get this person a metal... Thank You...

[ABED]

So you prefer a product with terrible characterization, hammy dialog, inexperienced actors, and is overall of cheap quality?

Tell me what logical reason you have for preferring the dub's Goku to Toriyama's Goku or the dub's Freeza to Toriyama's Freeza?

[Valerius Dover]

Kokonoe, i feel that I've misjudged you, and for that I apologize. I run into so many blind fans on the Internet that I guess I sort of mistook you for one of them. You actually seem like a pretty cool guy, a lot more open-minded than most. Not everyone's preferences can really be explained, I guess.

Regarding the actual thread topic, though, I'm fairly certain Funi wouldn't want to use Faulconer on TV again. Kai has pretty much replaced Z as far as TV broadcasts go.

[Kokonoe]

Kokonoe, i feel that I've misjudged you, and for that I apologize. I run into so many blind fans on the Internet that I guess I sort of mistook you for one of them. You actually seem like a pretty cool guy, a lot more open-minded than most. Not everyone's preferences can really be explained, I guess.

Regarding the actual thread topic, though, I'm fairly certain Funi wouldn't want to use Faulconer on TV again. Kai has pretty much replaced Z as far as TV broadcasts go.

Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, the internet is full a lot of that stuff from both sides. For me, I make sure I at least give each option a chance when it comes to games and shows if I'm going to discuss them.

I realistically don't see Faulconer ever returning as well as that lawsuit kinda ensured that.

[ABED]

This isn't about sharing the same view. Sure, some throw around the nostalgia view, but I have yet to read a coherent view of why the dub is superior to the original or why Faulconer's score is superior beyond mistaken beliefs about what DBZ is. Anyone who claims DB and DBZ are two completely different shows with two completely different feels which necessitates an entirely different score are mistaken.