If Dragonball Z came back on TV would Bruce Faulconer Music come back?

[ABED]

How many are actually saying dub fans ONLY like it for nostalgic reasons?

everything else works pretty well for what it is. It's not an accurate translation at all, but it wasn't really trying to be. Regardless of whether you think "re-versioning" is a good thing or not, you have to admit that Funimation's Dragon Ball Z was definitely a different show than the original version, and I think it's still pretty good for an action series for kids.

Why is that a good thing for the dub to be a different show? What's the benefit?

[NintendoBlaze53]

So all I can think is that DBZ dub fans really don't understand how subconscious nostalgia can be in someones mind.

Or maybe that sub fans need to grow up and realize not everyone is gonna share their view.

I offered historical evidence for why the Z dub is bad. Compared to every other dub at the time it was lacking in quality and that's the reason so many people on this forum don't like it, Funimation could have done better and they didn't. For the record btw, I love Faulconer Production's GBA tracks, they are great video game soundtracks, like quality wise. In the context of a video game those compositions are outstanding. In terms of what Funimation made Dragon Ball in the last 90's, it fits. In terms of what Dragon Ball was for 13 years before Team Faulconer touched it, it does not fit, that is the part so many sub fans get stuck up on. Dragon Ball was popular in dozens of countries with Kikuchi, why change it? All that does is divide the fanbase, which is exactly what keeps on happening.

As for sub fans growing up and realizing people have different opinions, shame dub fans for DBZ can't do that either. Getting flamed for saying Kuririn or Saibaiman is what us sub fans have had to put up with for a long time. Kanzenshuu is the only community I've ever been on where using Japanese names doesn't warrant 15 responses telling you "That's not how you say their name".

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Who gets to decide what constitutes "proper dialogue, music, and sound effects"?

For most people, it's will be an obvious judgement. It comes down to how a VA conveys emotions, reactions, their punctuality. Whether or not the music is intrusive, whether it complements or subdues the scene at hand. Same with sound effects. These things are objective within a very small margin of error.

[jjgp1112]

Who gets to decide what constitutes "proper dialogue, music, and sound effects"?

For most people, it's will be an obvious judgement. It comes down to how a VA conveys emotions, reactions, their punctuality. Whether or not the music is intrusive, whether it complements or subdues the scene at hand. Same with sound effects. These things are objective within a very small margin of error.

I feel like too often people hide behind subjectivity to avoid articulating why they think something is good. I used to do this a lot.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Who gets to decide what constitutes "proper dialogue, music, and sound effects"?

For most people, it's will be an obvious judgement. It comes down to how a VA conveys emotions, reactions, their punctuality. Whether or not the music is intrusive, whether it complements or subdues the scene at hand. Same with sound effects. These things are objective within a very small margin of error.

I feel like too often people hide behind subjectivity to avoid articulating why they think something is good. I used to do this a lot.

I won't make anyone articulate why they enjoy something. Like I've said, opinions are opinions and that's okay, if a bit boring and useless. However, it does irk me when one claims to have articulated while actually only having said "This is better cause it's better" while giving no reasons of substance.

[HybridSaiyan]

Y'know, all of you can complain all you want about the old DBZ and Faulconer but It's always going to be there, same story with GT. Let the Original DBZ fans enjoy it without bashing on us because we think it's good. We all have opinions regardless if it's the original source material or not. Heroic Goku was an inspiration to a lot of people who work out, stand up to bullies etc...
He's a far more interesting character too, rather than being a childish selfish baby who gives no fucks.

[VegettoEX]

You can like it all you want, but it's irrelevant to and not going to factor into any larger conversations about the franchise or its production.

[ABED]

Y'know, all of you can complain all you want about the old DBZ and Faulconer but It's always going to be there, same story with GT. Let the Original DBZ fans enjoy it without bashing on us because we think it's good. We all have opinions regardless if it's the original source material or not. Heroic Goku was an inspiration to a lot of people who work out, stand up to bullies etc...
He's a far more interesting character too, rather than being a childish selfish baby who gives no fucks.

I don't think he's more interesting. It makes him more generic. Besides, his supposed superheroism clashes with his actions. Being a battle maniac is one of the things that makes him unique.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Y'know, all of you can complain all you want about the old DBZ and Faulconer but It's always going to be there, same story with GT. Let the Original DBZ fans enjoy it without bashing on us because we think it's good. We all have opinions regardless if it's the original source material or not. Heroic Goku was an inspiration to a lot of people who work out, stand up to bullies etc...
He's a far more interesting character too, rather than being a childish selfish baby who gives no fucks.

It's not that you aren't allowed to like FUNimation's re-versioning of Goku--you absolutely are, and if you like it, that's perfectly fine--and while I can't speak for everybody, I never bash someone for how they prefer to watch DBZ. Just understand, FUNimation's re-versioned Goku (which I'll abbreviate going forward as FUNi-Goku) can't be used as a reference point when discussing the characters or story of Dragon Ball, because that's not the character that Toriyama created.

Think of it this way...that version of Goku can't be used as an accurate reference point for analyzing the character, for the same reason that Luffy in the 4Kids-dubbed version of One Piece can't be used as an accurate reference point for discussing Luffy. If someone has never watched or read One Piece, no one could say, "Just watch the 4Kids-dubbed version, it tells you everything you need to know." It was so radically changed that it only bares a passing resemblance (at best!) to what what the creators originally intended. Furthermore, FUN-Goku only continues to become more irrelevant as time goes on, since FUNimation is now dubbing the shows and movies accurately. Save a small hiccup here and there, Goku in the dub is now (more or less) the Goku from the original show...put another way, if you listen to FUNimation's dubs of the more current material, now you're listening to Goku, not FUNi-Goku.

So we're not saying you can't like it, and we're not bashing you for liking it or finding FUNi-Goku more interesting, likeable, and inspiring. We're simply saying that FUNi-Goku, even if he's likeable, is simply not relevant when discussing him as a Dragon Ball character. At least not in the context of talking about who the character really is. FUNi-Goku was the result of an inexperienced dubbing team in a particular region of the world, not the intentions of Toriyama. Heck, according to Toriyama, even Toei themselves in the original Japanese version played up a heroic side of Goku that he thought was going too far even then. Keeping in mind that FUNimation, in their original efforts, steered him even further off course should say a lot about how inaccurate and irrelevant FUNi-Goku is.

[LuckyCat]

Trying to go back to answer the OP's question, if FUNimation still pays royalties to Faulconer Productions, it seems like FUNimation would be less likely to get into more contracts that broadcast his work. I'm not sure what FUNimation had to pay TOEI for rights to the Yamamoto/Kikuchi scores, but if they came in sort of a package deal with Kai, it's likely they'd just use those scores.

So, in addition to the philosophical factors well-articulated in this thread, there's also financial forces working against bringing the old score back on TV in the U.S.

[8000 Saiyan]

Y'know, all of you can complain all you want about the old DBZ and Faulconer but It's always going to be there, same story with GT. Let the Original DBZ fans enjoy it without bashing on us because we think it's good. We all have opinions regardless if it's the original source material or not. Heroic Goku was an inspiration to a lot of people who work out, stand up to bullies etc...
He's a far more interesting character too, rather than being a childish selfish baby who gives no fucks.

You're free to like Funi's version of Goku, but remember that while Goku is selfish in the Japanese version, he's not an uncaring douchebag.

When he and Piccolo fought Raditz to save Gohan, there was no moment where he was: "Wow, this guy is so strong. It makes me super excited to face someone so powerful!" He was far more concerned with Gohan's safety than anything else.

He even asked Babidi to teleport him and Vegeta to a place where no one could get hurt.

[Gokuisasuperhero]

So you prefer a product with terrible characterization, hammy dialog, inexperienced actors, and is overall of cheap quality?

Tell me what logical reason you have for preferring the dub's Goku to Toriyama's Goku or the dub's Freeza to Toriyama's Freeza?

"Logical" Goku is a Superhero bro he save the Earth Twice without question Dub or not Dub... You can't change that fact... And Z Dub is better then Kai for the Faulconer Songs and the voice I think are better... I watch both Kai and Z so don't say I have not b/c I have... Kid Gohan voice was better in Z then it is in Kai same with Frieza voice is better in Z then Kai. Frieza is suppose to sound like an Evil Emperor not NOT a Military Soldier like Chris make him sound like. Linda was better in the role. Going by your logic everyone in DBZ should be recast since Goku in American is voice by Sean not a woman like Goku is in a Japan. American voices are different to Japan voices and there going sound the same you need to basic it around the language you speak and not try to sound like someone you can't sound like.

[Gokuisasuperhero]

Y'know, all of you can complain all you want about the old DBZ and Faulconer but It's always going to be there, same story with GT. Let the Original DBZ fans enjoy it without bashing on us because we think it's good. We all have opinions regardless if it's the original source material or not. Heroic Goku was an inspiration to a lot of people who work out, stand up to bullies etc...
He's a far more interesting character too, rather than being a childish selfish baby who gives no fucks.

It's not that you aren't allowed to like FUNimation's re-versioning of Goku--you absolutely are, and if you like it, that's perfectly fine--and while I can't speak for everybody, I never bash someone for how they prefer to watch DBZ. Just understand, FUNimation's re-versioned Goku (which I'll abbreviate going forward as FUNi-Goku) can't be used as a reference point when discussing the characters or story of Dragon Ball, because that's not the character that Toriyama created.

Think of it this way...that version of Goku can't be used as an accurate reference point for analyzing the character, for the same reason that Luffy in the 4Kids-dubbed version of One Piece can't be used as an accurate reference point for discussing Luffy. If someone has never watched or read One Piece, no one could say, "Just watch the 4Kids-dubbed version, it tells you everything you need to know." It was so radically changed that it only bares a passing resemblance (at best!) to what what the creators originally intended. Furthermore, FUN-Goku only continues to become more irrelevant as time goes on, since FUNimation is now dubbing the shows and movies accurately. Save a small hiccup here and there, Goku in the dub is now (more or less) the Goku from the original show...put another way, if you listen to FUNimation's dubs of the more current material, now you're listening to Goku, not FUNi-Goku.

So we're not saying you can't like it, and we're not bashing you for liking it or finding FUNi-Goku more interesting, likeable, and inspiring. We're simply saying that FUNi-Goku, even if he's likeable, is simply not relevant when discussing him as a Dragon Ball character. At least not in the context of talking about who the character really is. FUNi-Goku was the result of an inexperienced dubbing team in a particular region of the world, not the intentions of Toriyama. Heck, according to Toriyama, even Toei themselves in the original Japanese version played up a heroic side of Goku that he thought was going too far even then. Keeping in mind that FUNimation, in their original efforts, steered him even further off course should say a lot about how inaccurate and irrelevant FUNi-Goku is.

Going by your logic that mean people can't speak about Power Ranger since there a Japanese adaptation. Like no just NO!

[VegettoEX]

If you want to debate Goku's characteristics, please find an appropriate thread (or create your own) to do so.

Furthermore, I'd ask folks to please review the community guidelines. You want other people to be able to read and understand your posts. Even more furthermore, please remember that a critique of a product is not a personal attack on you or your fandom.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

So you prefer a product with terrible characterization, hammy dialog, inexperienced actors, and is overall of cheap quality?

Tell me what logical reason you have for preferring the dub's Goku to Toriyama's Goku or the dub's Freeza to Toriyama's Freeza?

"Logical" Goku is a Superhero bro he save the Earth Twice without question Dub or not Dub... You can't change that fact... And Z Dub is better then Kai for the Faulconer Songs and the voice I think are better... I watch both Kai and Z so don't say I have not b/c I have... Kid Gohan voice was better in Z then it is in Kai same with Frieza voice is better in Z then Kai. Frieza is suppose to sound like an Evil Emperor not NOT a Military Soldier like Chris make him sound like. Linda was better in the role. Going by your logic everyone in DBZ should be recast since Goku in American is voice by Sean not a woman like Goku is in a Japan. American voices are different to Japan voices and there going sound the same you need to basic it around the language you speak and not try to sound like someone you can't sound like.

I suggest you go back and read some of the earlier responses in this thread because other than your invalid assessment of Young and Ayres' respective takes on Freeza all your post says is "I prefer X to Y, therefore X must be better".

You are entitled to like the Faulconer score and the original Funimation dub but as others have said that is not TOEI, much less Toriyama's product. Enjoy it all you like but if your going to argue your case for thinking your preferred version is better don't disregard all the contary evidence you've been shown.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Y'know, all of you can complain all you want about the old DBZ and Faulconer but It's always going to be there, same story with GT. Let the Original DBZ fans enjoy it without bashing on us because we think it's good. We all have opinions regardless if it's the original source material or not. Heroic Goku was an inspiration to a lot of people who work out, stand up to bullies etc...
He's a far more interesting character too, rather than being a childish selfish baby who gives no fucks.

It's not that you aren't allowed to like FUNimation's re-versioning of Goku--you absolutely are, and if you like it, that's perfectly fine--and while I can't speak for everybody, I never bash someone for how they prefer to watch DBZ. Just understand, FUNimation's re-versioned Goku (which I'll abbreviate going forward as FUNi-Goku) can't be used as a reference point when discussing the characters or story of Dragon Ball, because that's not the character that Toriyama created.

Think of it this way...that version of Goku can't be used as an accurate reference point for analyzing the character, for the same reason that Luffy in the 4Kids-dubbed version of One Piece can't be used as an accurate reference point for discussing Luffy. If someone has never watched or read One Piece, no one could say, "Just watch the 4Kids-dubbed version, it tells you everything you need to know." It was so radically changed that it only bares a passing resemblance (at best!) to what what the creators originally intended. Furthermore, FUN-Goku only continues to become more irrelevant as time goes on, since FUNimation is now dubbing the shows and movies accurately. Save a small hiccup here and there, Goku in the dub is now (more or less) the Goku from the original show...put another way, if you listen to FUNimation's dubs of the more current material, now you're listening to Goku, not FUNi-Goku.

So we're not saying you can't like it, and we're not bashing you for liking it or finding FUNi-Goku more interesting, likeable, and inspiring. We're simply saying that FUNi-Goku, even if he's likeable, is simply not relevant when discussing him as a Dragon Ball character. At least not in the context of talking about who the character really is. FUNi-Goku was the result of an inexperienced dubbing team in a particular region of the world, not the intentions of Toriyama. Heck, according to Toriyama, even Toei themselves in the original Japanese version played up a heroic side of Goku that he thought was going too far even then. Keeping in mind that FUNimation, in their original efforts, steered him even further off course should say a lot about how inaccurate and irrelevant FUNi-Goku is.

Going by your logic that mean people can't speak about Power Ranger since there a Japanese adaptation. Like no just NO!

Actually, this is a great example for you to bring up, because I think I can express my point more succinctly this way. I'm not saying that people can't speak about Power Rangers, so much as I'm saying that people can't reference Power Rangers when talking about the story and characters of Super Sentai (and vice versa) and claim that both are accurate representations of each other. They're not accurate representations of one another, they're two different things. Talking about Geki the Tyranno-Ranger and Jason the Red Ranger means talking about two different characters, just like talking about Goku and FUNi-Goku means talking about two different characters. We can't point to scenes in the show featuring Geki and use it to analyze Jason as a character...the only thing those two have in common is that their characters are both featured in the same footage. Likewise, we can't point to scenes in DBZ featuring FUNi-Goku and use it to analyze Goku.

To bring it back to the music, what we're saying is that you can absolutely like and even prefer the Faulconer score should you wish. However, we can't point to the Faulconer score and say that's how Toei originally intended it. The replaced score, which is only applicable to the English-speaking world since every other dub used the original score, is not relevant when discussing the original production. It becomes even further irrelevant in the grand scheme of things since FUNimation has since been using the original scores for the newer material and even created home video releases of DBZ and GT featuring an audio track with the English dub and the original score. The Faulconer score was a product of its time, and only for one part of fandom. So, while likeability is, I'm sure, a factor for everybody involved, this isn't so much a question of likeability as it is a question of relevance. A replaced score for one (large, to be fair) section of the world is not relevant when talking about the original show, and the original show is primarily what Kanzenshuu discusses.

[thaman91]

I offered historical evidence for why the Z dub is bad. Compared to every other dub at the time it was lacking in quality and that's the reason so many people on this forum don't like it, Funimation could have done better and they didn't.

I don't think you actually accomplished what you think you did. Let's take a look at your post:

Usually quality can be gauged by looking at competitors. This is how Oscars usually decide what is Best Picture. So lets look at dubs which aired the same time as DBZ and see if it holds a candle to them. The first things I can think of that aired along side DBZ are Cowboy Bebop and Yu Yu Hakusho. And in every way possible both those dubs blow the DBZ dub out of the water. How is it possible Yu Yu Hakusho could be dubbed so right, yet DBZ failed when it came out only 2 years prior and from the same company? In every single way, the acting in DBZ S3-5 is abysmal. The script is abysmal. You can like it all you want, but in the context of the dubbing industry at the time of 1999-2002, DBZ's dub is a bad product, just as Sailor Moon's old dub which aired at the same time is a bad product. Both these shows got redubs in a way, and as far as I know, the Viz Sailor Moon dub is considered by all to be superior. So all I can think is that DBZ dub fans really don't understand how subconscious nostalgia can be in someones mind.

So really, all you've said can be boiled down to "Yu Yu Hakusho & Cowboy Bebop's dubs were great and DBZ's was terrible and it had bad writing & acting". So it's not "historical evidence", it's just an assertion that was made (multiple times, probably for some kind of persuasive effect) without any sort of analysis or reasoning. You can't just namedrop 2 shows, simply say they're better, and then claim that your argument counts as "historical evidence".

How many are actually saying dub fans ONLY like it for nostalgic reasons?

Well that may have been an unintentional straw man argument on my part. Although...

everything else works pretty well for what it is. It's not an accurate translation at all, but it wasn't really trying to be. Regardless of whether you think "re-versioning" is a good thing or not, you have to admit that Funimation's Dragon Ball Z was definitely a different show than the original version, and I think it's still pretty good for an action series for kids.

Why is that a good thing for the dub to be a different show? What's the benefit?

This question seems like a bit of a straw man as well. Personally speaking, I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good thing for the dub to be a different show. Instead, I'm saying
1.) It's different to the original, and that doesn't necessarily make it bad
2.) It's good, independent of the fact that it's different from the original
This is an important distinction to make.

For most people, it's will be an obvious judgement. It comes down to how a VA conveys emotions, reactions, their punctuality. Whether or not the music is intrusive, whether it complements or subdues the scene at hand. Same with sound effects. These things are objective within a very small margin of error.

So again, we arrive at the flawed "most people" argument. Did you know that "most people" have rated the first 3 Transformers movies an average of 6.0 or higher on IMDB? So most people thought that they were either good or decent, rather than bad.

Additionally, even if I were to accept your premise that what "most people" think constitutes the objective truth (I don't), where is the evidence to back up your claim that most people would think that the DBZ dub is bad? And since you use terminology like "margin of error", I assume you've gotten this down to an exact science. Or, at the very least, you have some numerical data and analysis to justify this claim? If not, then your claim is nothing more than guesswork of how "most people" think, based on your own feelings on the matter.

Furthermore, the people supposedly arguing on the side of the "objective truth" don't even agree on what the criteria for objectivity are. You say that it's about what "most people" think. Yet here's another post (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38175&start=240#p1292232) that brings up the Oscar awards as another potential measure of what's good and what isn't. So which is it? You'd think that if things were so obvious, there'd be some kind of unified consensus.

I feel like too often people hide behind subjectivity to avoid articulating why they think something is good. I used to do this a lot.

I won't make anyone articulate why they enjoy something. Like I've said, opinions are opinions and that's okay, if a bit boring and useless. However, it does irk me when one claims to have articulated while actually only having said "This is better cause it's better" while giving no reasons of substance.

Similarly, it irks me when people keep claiming over and over that they speak on the side of the objective truth. Just because one says it over and over, does not make it true...

But if you guys are looking for reasons why I think the dub is good, it has a lot to do with the tone and atmosphere that is created, mostly by the music. Here are some reasons:
1.) I like how the music is married to the visuals/dialogue. Sure it goes too far with mickey-mousing at times, but I love that there's a musical cue that goes with each and every tonal shift in a scene.
2.) There's just so much variety in the music. DBZ has moments/moods that include carefree, mysterious, goofy, sad, prideful, heroic, sinister, scary, creepy, contemplative, action-y, and even epic; the Faulconer score has tracks that can fit each and every one of these different tones.
3.) The music has motifs and themes that were developed for various moments and characters; these motifs/themes developed and progressed as the show went on. And it's quite clever when analogous moments at different points in the series utilize the same or similar music.
4.) I thought that the script/dialogue was ideal in the latter parts of the dub (Buu-era material) in that it sounded the most natural whilst also being more accurate than what came before. Like I've mentioned before, I think that the Kai dub, whilst being the most accurate the dub has ever been, sometimes traded sentence fluency for accuracy.
5.) Freeza: I loved Linda Young's portrayal of Freeza. And yes, I know it's highly inaccurate. But the sinister grandma voice coming from a scary-looking creature is something I find to be very creepy. I even thought the "ride 'em cowboy" line while he was impaling Krillin was very effective because it showed that he was monstrous enough to be cracking jokes whilst callously murdering one of the show's main heroes.

To anyone who is simply saying that the dub version isn't important to the larger Dragon Ball discussion and is losing relevancy because it doesn't represent what Dragon Ball is nor does it represent where FUNimation is going with their dubbing practices....well I agree with that! I may think that the dub is good, but I can't dispute that argument. And I'm quite happy with how the dubs are now anyway.

[ABED]

This question seems like a bit of a straw man as well.

It wasn't a strawman as much as me not understanding your point. And I do think it's bad for a dub to be largely different from its original. It's not a new show made from scratch. It's a dub of a show with existing animation created to match a script. If the two scripts are radically different, it's essentially like Bad Lip Reading. In a number of cases, the characterizations in the dub clash with the visuals and that's objectively bad storytelling.

You'd think that if things were so obvious, there'd be some kind of unified consensus.

Objective doesn't mean self evident.

I like how the music is married to the visuals/dialogue.

It's married to hammy dialog that doesn't fit the visuals and characters. It doesn't quiet down and often plays up the superficial. It rarely allows the scenes and the performance speak for themselves. The producers and composers don't trust the story, visuals, and performances to do the work.

But the sinister grandma voice coming from a scary-looking creature is something I find to be very creepy

I don't hear sinister. I hear someone trying to sound sinister.

[thaman91]

This question seems like a bit of a straw man as well.

It wasn't a strawman as much as me not understanding your point. And I do think it's bad for a dub to be largely different from its original. It's not a new show made from scratch. It's a dub of a show with existing animation created to match a script. If the two scripts are radically different, it's essentially like Bad Lip Reading. In a number of cases, the characterizations in the dub clash with the visuals and that's objectively bad storytelling.

Well fair enough if that's what you think (I like how you're now using phrases like "I do think it's bad"). Personally, if the end product is entertaining in its own right, then I'm able to separate it from how inaccurate it is.

You'd think that if things were so obvious, there'd be some kind of unified consensus.

Objective doesn't mean self evident.

No, but there still don't appear to be well-defined criteria.

I like how the music is married to the visuals/dialogue.

It's married to hammy dialog that doesn't fit the visuals and characters. It doesn't quiet down and often plays up the superficial. It rarely allows the scenes and the performance speak for themselves. The producers and composers don't trust the story, visuals, and performances to do the work.

No it's married to good dialogue that fits the visuals and the dub versions of the characters. It complements the dialogue well and creates themes that enhance what's happening on screen. Though I'll admit that there's probably some truth to the producers not trusting the rest of the show enough and trying to over-compensate with constant music. Once in a while, I do wish it would be silent. But for the most part, it's not an issue.

But the sinister grandma voice coming from a scary-looking creature is something I find to be very creepy

I don't hear sinister. I hear someone trying to sound sinister.

I don't hear someone trying to sound sinister. I hear sinister.

[Kokonoe]

You are entitled to like the Faulconer score and the original Funimation dub but as others have said that is not TOEI, much less Toriyama's product. Enjoy it all you like but if your going to argue your case for thinking your preferred version is better don't disregard all the contary evidence you've been shown.

Here's something your side is not understanding. Considering the Japanese variant of the DBZ anime the best iteration of the manga IS an opinion. I get that the dialog is altered in ways, but everything else like voices and music? Or discussing ENG Kai? It stops being about a change in the script at that point. No matter how people may try to spin it in circles over and over that what they're saying is far more objective and correct than someone else's, it won't ever stop being their opinion and perception of what they consider this series is and should be.

I also don't get bothered that instead of Goku saying he's gonna kick Frieza's butt one way, he says it in a different way. Is the dialogue different there? Yes. Is it pretty much leading to the same end of Goku wanting to beat up Frieza for being bad and killing his friend? Yes. I can get why someone else gets bothered by it, but I don't feel it detracts from the show at all. If you do, that's fine, but I don't. And yes, I'm referring to that one scene everyone knows about.