Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

I think the show's been doing an okay job of showing that Goku and Vegeta are at god level only when they're using their god form, SSB. The events of BoG are really an outlier in that respect, as the narrative seems to be supporting the idea that SSG's realm of strength is still something special to a limited degree.

The only real examples of characters noted to surpass that level either directly or by proxy that aren't Gods of Destruction or Angels are SSB Goku/Vegeta/Copy-Vegeta, Golden Freeza, Hit, SSR Black, SSI Future Trunks, Toppo, and Jiren.

The problem is that list keeps growing.

Goku and Vegeta can't stay untouchable forever. There's always going to be competition.

Exactly, remember when being Namek 4th form Freeza's level was special? Well in the arc right after, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, Cell, and the Cyborgs aka a total of 10 characters all surpassed Freeza while there's only 9 God tier characters (That aren't Gods themselves or Angels) after introducing the tier many arcs ago.

[TheMikado]

The problem is that list keeps growing.

Goku and Vegeta can't stay untouchable forever. There's always going to be competition.

Exactly, remember when being Namek 4th form Freeza's level was special? Well in the arc right after, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, Cell, and the Cyborgs aka a total of 10 characters all surpassed Freeza while there's only 9 God tier characters (That aren't Gods themselves or Angels) after introducing the tier many arcs ago.

Well in Z I don't think 19&20 are stronger than final form Frieza. 17&18 definitely are and so is Cell but only after absorption and having DNA. The only ones surpassing him after that were Dabura the King of the Demon Realm and Buu the destroyer of the universe and the Supreme Kai who throughout the entirety of the Buu arc is in utter disbelief these strength levels exist. Even Goten and Trunks are called out in universe about being unbelievably strong. Basically the gang was crazy powerful and was presented as such in universe, literally the only thing stronger then them since Frieza was the androids and themselves through Cells DNA and Buu through absorption.

When we have guys like Cabba with a planet full of Saiyans at base Goku/Vegeta levels which isn't too far off from SSG and Hit who basically is SSB x KK x10 level. It's stranger because there aren't special circumstances surrounding them. These are everyday normal guys near as we can tell with others potentially stronger then them.

[DBZ Macky]

Goku and Vegeta can't stay untouchable forever. There's always going to be competition.

Exactly, remember when being Namek 4th form Freeza's level was special? Well in the arc right after, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, Cell, and the Cyborgs aka a total of 10 characters all surpassed Freeza while there's only 9 God tier characters (That aren't Gods themselves or Angels) after introducing the tier many arcs ago.

Well in Z I don't think 19&20 are stronger than final form Frieza. 17&18 definitely are and so is Cell but only after absorption and having DNA. The only ones surpassing him after that were Dabura the King of the Demon Realm and Buu the destroyer of the universe and the Supreme Kai who throughout the entirety of the Buu arc is in utter disbelief these strength levels exist. Even Goten and Trunks are called out in universe about being unbelievably strong. Basically the gang was crazy powerful and was presented as such in universe, literally the only thing stronger then them since Frieza was the androids and themselves through Cells DNA and Buu through absorption.

When we have guys like Cabba with a planet full of Saiyans at base Goku/Vegeta levels which isn't too far off from SSG and Hit who basically is SSB x KK x10 level. It's stranger because there aren't special circumstances surrounding them. These are everyday normal guys near as we can tell with others potentially stronger then them.

"But they're from a different universe, doesn't that automatically solve everthn?"

[BlueBasilisk]

When we have guys like Cabba with a planet full of Saiyans at base Goku/Vegeta levels which isn't too far off from SSG and Hit who basically is SSB x KK x10 level. It's stranger because there aren't special circumstances surrounding them. These are everyday normal guys near as we can tell with others potentially stronger then them.

You know, seeing where Goku and Vegeta are now, I don't think it's all that strange that the Universe 6 Saiyans are so strong. Instead, it strikes me as bizarre that the Universe 7 Saiyans were so damn weak with their warlike nature and all the genetic advantages given to them. Nappa and Vegeta were the outliers, being the prince and an elite, but the average joe schmoe Saiyan apparently wasn't that much stronger than the heroes were during the Saiyan Saga.

[Fionordequester]

You know, seeing where Goku and Vegeta are now, I don't think it's all that strange that the Universe 6 Saiyans are so strong. Instead, it strikes me as bizarre that the Universe 7 Saiyans were so damn weak with their warlike nature and all the genetic advantages given to them. Nappa and Vegeta were the outliers, being the prince and an elite, but the average joe schmoe Saiyan apparently wasn't that much stronger than the heroes were during the Saiyan Saga.

Actually, their war-like tendencies are probably WHY their so weak. Think about it; if you're a great and powerful martial arts master, who's easier to teach? Someone who actually respects and listens to you? Or someone who's always looking for whatever chance they have to kill you?

[Gorou]

Suppressed Perfect Cell at that time was stronger than every other character in the show bar SSJ Gohan post-ROSAT. Are you really telling me that in that instance Cell immensely dropped his power just to kick Krillin in the head and no kill him? That makes no sense. Why would he do that? And when did Cell provide any kind of hint that he dropped his strength just for Krillin's case? The only way that scenario makes any kind of sense is that Krillin has the strength or durability that matches, or is at the very least closely rivals, ASSJ Vegeta. That's the only way he doesn't instantly die from that.

And who tells you that Krilin would not have died? Is immediately rescue by Trunks with a Senzu, so he gets up almost immediately, but without it, it is highly likely that roundhouse kick would take him to die a third time.
But that's not the important thing. We know perfectly well that Cell was frighteningly suppressed (android 16 considers him even weaker than Vegeta DnD), then it makes no sense expect a splatter scene for a kick that the same Krilin believed to be "a simple flip" for him.

[TheMikado]

When we have guys like Cabba with a planet full of Saiyans at base Goku/Vegeta levels which isn't too far off from SSG and Hit who basically is SSB x KK x10 level. It's stranger because there aren't special circumstances surrounding them. These are everyday normal guys near as we can tell with others potentially stronger then them.

You know, seeing where Goku and Vegeta are now, I don't think it's all that strange that the Universe 6 Saiyans are so strong. Instead, it strikes me as bizarre that the Universe 7 Saiyans were so damn weak with their warlike nature and all the genetic advantages given to them. Nappa and Vegeta were the outliers, being the prince and an elite, but the average joe schmoe Saiyan apparently wasn't that much stronger than the heroes were during the Saiyan Saga.

Well no the problem is the strongest base saiyan we know of at the start of the series is probably Vegeta at 18,000. At the end of the buu arc he's probably in the several millions range in base.
Universe 6 Cabba base is around equal to Vegeta, if this was buu arc base Vegeta that would be suspect, but I would buy it because you know different universe and they are naturally stronger without tails, etc. So If the two base theory were an actual thing Cabba would already be in the millions without even going SSJ.

The problem I have is that they present Vegeta's base as stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in the copy arc which is after Whis crazy training by the God of destruction's attendant, and somehow Cabba is casually that strong. I really really don't think that was the original intention of the story, to show Cabba as stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. I really feel like it was to show that the level of power the saiyans are at in the Buu saga are the normal expected power levels of saiyans which Goku and Vegeta only recently reached.

[Lord Beerus]

Exactly, remember when being Namek 4th form Freeza's level was special? Well in the arc right after, Piccolo, Trunks, Vegeta, Gohan, Cell, and the Cyborgs aka a total of 10 characters all surpassed Freeza while there's only 9 God tier characters (That aren't Gods themselves or Angels) after introducing the tier many arcs ago.

Well in Z I don't think 19&20 are stronger than final form Frieza. 17&18 definitely are and so is Cell but only after absorption and having DNA. The only ones surpassing him after that were Dabura the King of the Demon Realm and Buu the destroyer of the universe and the Supreme Kai who throughout the entirety of the Buu arc is in utter disbelief these strength levels exist. Even Goten and Trunks are called out in universe about being unbelievably strong. Basically the gang was crazy powerful and was presented as such in universe, literally the only thing stronger then them since Frieza was the androids and themselves through Cells DNA and Buu through absorption.

When we have guys like Cabba with a planet full of Saiyans at base Goku/Vegeta levels which isn't too far off from SSG and Hit who basically is SSB x KK x10 level. It's stranger because there aren't special circumstances surrounding them. These are everyday normal guys near as we can tell with others potentially stronger then them.

"But they're from a different universe, doesn't that automatically solve everthn?"

Different universe, different set of standards.

Suppressed Perfect Cell at that time was stronger than every other character in the show bar SSJ Gohan post-ROSAT. Are you really telling me that in that instance Cell immensely dropped his power just to kick Krillin in the head and no kill him? That makes no sense. Why would he do that? And when did Cell provide any kind of hint that he dropped his strength just for Krillin's case? The only way that scenario makes any kind of sense is that Krillin has the strength or durability that matches, or is at the very least closely rivals, ASSJ Vegeta. That's the only way he doesn't instantly die from that.

And who tells you that Krilin would not have died? Is immediately rescue by Trunks with a Senzu, so he gets up almost immediately, but without it, it is highly likely that roundhouse kick would take him to die a third time.
But that's not the important thing. We know perfectly well that Cell was frighteningly suppressed (android 16 considers him even weaker than Vegeta DnD), then it makes no sense expect a splatter scene for a kick that the same Krilin believed to be "a simple flip" for him.

I wouldn't have that much of a problem with Perfect Cell kicking Krillin and Krillin living if Cell stated he drastically lowered his battle power to no kill Krillin. But no such implication is made. People go on about how Goku didn't imply enough that he drastically lowered his battle power as a SSJB against Krillin even though he can perfectly control how much ki uses in SSJB and knows that using too much power could instantly kill Krillin and would go against the purpose of the sparring match in the first place as the tournament they are taking part in has a no killing role. Krillin could withstand an attack from the most powerful character in the universe at that stage, and character who had already displayed an attitude of zero empathy for anyone he fights and has a nonchalant attitude towards easily murdering people who he knows has no chance against him, and that a-ok. Even though the series has already displayed that physical attacks, like kicks and punches to face, can instantly kill your opponent if you're stronger than them. But a sparring match against two very good friends in the circumstances where they will be taking part in a tournament based setting where no killing is allowed and where one can easily suppress his power level to accommodate the other, and now that is suddenly a big issue. Even though we've already seen a Godly tier character immensely supress his strength to hit a woman and not kill her.

I can;t help but feel this is an incredible double standard.

[TheMikado]

The difference is the presentation. Cell didnt even notice Krillins attacks and didn't show any strain or even breath heavy.
There was literally no effort at all put in by Cell.

If Goku had just smiled and shot a random ki blast from his index finger, people may still call BS, but at least it looks like Goku wasn't even trying.

[Gorou]

I wouldn't have that much of a problem with Perfect Cell kicking Krillin and Krillin living if Cell stated he drastically lowered his battle power to no kill Krillin. But no such implication is made. People go on about how Goku didn't imply enough that he drastically lowered his battle power as a SSJB against Krillin even though he can perfectly control how much ki uses in SSJB and knows that using too much power could instantly kill Krillin and would go against the purpose of the sparring match in the first place as the tournament they are taking part in has a no killing role. Krillin could withstand an attack from the most powerful character in the universe at that stage, and character who had already displayed an attitude of zero empathy for anyone he fights and has a nonchalant attitude towards easily murdering people who he knows has no chance against him, and that a-ok. Even though the series has already displayed that physical attacks, like kicks and punches to face, can instantly kill your opponent if you're stronger than them. But a sparring match against two very good friends in the circumstances where they will be taking part in a tournament based setting where no killing is allowed and where one can easily suppress his power level to accommodate the other, and now that is suddenly a big issue. Even though we've already seen a Godly tier character immensely supress his strength to hit a woman and not kill her.

I can;t help but feel this is an incredible double standard.

People complain, some time rightly in my opinion, because the episode was misspelled. Goku was definitely supressed, but the setting and the dynamics of the facts, it does not shine. Among a Cell that plays, euphoric and enthusiastic, to test her perfect body ,and that almost kills Krilin in the process with a blow that was nothing for him, and a Goku that, visually, gives the impression to engage only for reject Krilin's Kamehemeha, while using his most powerfull stadium, elapses a chasm.

In addition, the same reaction as Krilin is illogical. In front of most powerfull form, the stage impossible to beat, where any direct comparison is pointless, does the only thing you should not do: counterattack using brute force.

[perucho1990]

The difference is the presentation. Cell didnt even notice Krillins attacks and didn't show any strain or even breath heavy.
There was literally no effort at all put in by Cell.

If Goku had just smiled and shot a random ki blast from his index finger, people may still call BS, but at least it looks like Goku wasn't even trying.

And now Krillin can probably lolstomp Perfect Cell due to the powerup he got in his mini arc and the feats he showed while sparring with Gohan and Goku.

This is the same series that had freaking Tagoma go from Zarbon level to trashing Piccolo, if Tagoma can get that much strong, then why Krillin couldnt do the same or better?

[The gr]

The difference is the presentation. Cell didnt even notice Krillins attacks and didn't show any strain or even breath heavy.
There was literally no effort at all put in by Cell.

If Goku had just smiled and shot a random ki blast from his index finger, people may still call BS, but at least it looks like Goku wasn't even trying.

And now Krillin can probably lolstomp Perfect Cell due to the powerup he got in his mini arc and the feats he showed while sparring with Gohan and Goku.

This is the same series that had freaking Tagoma go from Zarbon level to trashing Piccolo, if Tagoma can get that much strong, then why Krillin couldnt do the same or better?

that was not an impressive,all krillin did is use the takoyen 100x to gohan and that's it, and he use the power of plot induced stupidity to holdback ssb Kamehameha, and the same episode implies krillin is still weaker than#18,by the looks at it, and #18 didn't got any stronger, since she never trains,krillin maybe stronger than he ever was, but he is still weaker than #18 and #17.And tagoma had a legit excuse on his Power increasing, meanwhile krillin,did this because he was doing exercise,I don't think the forest episode was mentioned at all in episode 84

[TheMikado]

The difference is the presentation. Cell didnt even notice Krillins attacks and didn't show any strain or even breath heavy.
There was literally no effort at all put in by Cell.

If Goku had just smiled and shot a random ki blast from his index finger, people may still call BS, but at least it looks like Goku wasn't even trying.

And now Krillin can probably lolstomp Perfect Cell due to the powerup he got in his mini arc and the feats he showed while sparring with Gohan and Goku.

This is the same series that had freaking Tagoma go from Zarbon level to trashing Piccolo, if Tagoma can get that much strong, then why Krillin couldnt do the same or better?

that was not an impressive,all krillin did is use the takoyen 100x to gohan and that's it, and he use the power of plot induced stupidity to holdback ssb Kamehameha, and the same episode implies krillin is still weaker than#18,by the looks at it, and #18 didn't got any stronger, since she never trains,krillin maybe stronger than he ever was, but he is still weaker than #18 and #17.And tagoma had a legit excuse on his Power increasing, meanwhile krillin,did this because he was doing exercise,I don't think the forest episode was mentioned at all in episode 84

I swear if they had just given these guys kaioken I'd be happy.

[BlueBasilisk]

Actually, their war-like tendencies are probably WHY their so weak. Think about it; if you're a great and powerful martial arts master, who's easier to teach? Someone who actually respects and listens to you? Or someone who's always looking for whatever chance they have to kill you?

My problem with this is that Vegeta, who never really trained after fighting Goku, gained enough power to fight first form Frieza just though getting his ass kicked and zenkai boosting. Meanwhile, Goku trained for most of his life and was only a quarter as powerful as Raditz, wasn't as strong as Vegeta after training with King Kai for a year, then suddenly he reaches Ginyu level after a week of training and then Frieza-tier after one ass kicking. Zenkai boosts went from a modest increase to multiplying power levels several times over in the same arc they were introduced!

I think that's just an artifact of the time period when they were introduced. Power creep doesn't just drive overall power levels higher, but it also seems to increase the rate at which the characters grow and the returns they get off of their training. If Roshi really knuckled down and trained now, I wouldn't be surprised if his power level skyrocketed into the tens or even hundreds of thousands by the time of the tournament simply because the power creep has pushed things so far forward. I also think Roshi was a lot stronger than most people give him credit for in RoF.

[Fionordequester]

My problem with this is that Vegeta, who never really trained after fighting Goku, gained enough power to fight first form Frieza just though getting his ass kicked and zenkai boosting. Meanwhile, Goku trained for most of his life and was only a quarter as powerful as Raditz, wasn't as strong as Vegeta after training with King Kai for a year, then suddenly he reaches Ginyu level after a week of training and then Frieza-tier after one ass kicking. Zenkai boosts went from a modest increase to multiplying power levels several times over in the same arc they were introduced!

Yeah, Vegeta's gains were...pretty absurd. You're right about that. But as for the below...

I think that's just an artifact of the time period when they were introduced. Power creep doesn't just drive overall power levels higher, but it also seems to increase the rate at which the characters grow and the returns they get off of their training. If Roshi really knuckled down and trained now, I wouldn't be surprised if his power level skyrocketed into the tens or even hundreds of thousands by the time of the tournament simply because the power creep has pushed things so far forward. I also think Roshi was a lot stronger than most people give him credit for in RoF.

Meh, it's at least somewhat plausible. As people start learning better and better ways to train, their gains come faster and faster. Goku may've trained most of his life, but when Z rolled around, he was like what? 20 years old? Naturally, he's gonna have picked up a few tricks by the time he's gotten to 40-50 and gone to Heaven, with all of history's best warriors to learn from.

I mean...I'm not saying it's perfect, but you can...kind of rationalize it.

[Lord Beerus]

The difference is the presentation. Cell didnt even notice Krillins attacks and didn't show any strain or even breath heavy.
There was literally no effort at all put in by Cell.

If Goku had just smiled and shot a random ki blast from his index finger, people may still call BS, but at least it looks like Goku wasn't even trying.

Cell also displayed practically no effort by Cell when he kicked Vegeta's ass either.

[TheMikado]

The difference is the presentation. Cell didnt even notice Krillins attacks and didn't show any strain or even breath heavy.
There was literally no effort at all put in by Cell.

If Goku had just smiled and shot a random ki blast from his index finger, people may still call BS, but at least it looks like Goku wasn't even trying.

Cell also displayed practically no effort by Cell when he kicked Vegeta's ass either.

No, 16 even states Perfect Cells power level is lower than Vegetas right after he knocks out Krillin. In universe Cell was holding back even when he hit Krillin. 16 states as much. So that mystery is solved.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m71lnnPI8qs

[Lord Beerus]

The difference is the presentation. Cell didnt even notice Krillins attacks and didn't show any strain or even breath heavy.
There was literally no effort at all put in by Cell.

If Goku had just smiled and shot a random ki blast from his index finger, people may still call BS, but at least it looks like Goku wasn't even trying.

Cell also displayed practically no effort by Cell when he kicked Vegeta's ass either.

No, 16 even states Perfect Cells power level is lower than Vegetas right after he knocks out Krillin. In universe Cell was holding back even when he hit Krillin. 16 states as much. So that mystery is solved.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m71lnnPI8qs

Android 16 makes the comment in the manga that Cell is much stronger than before and states that Vegeta is better at thim than everything. And that after Cell states he's just warming up and he easily blocks everything Vegeta throws at him. And Android 16 has a shocked look on his face when Cell states he's just warming up. Implying that he though was using all of his strength from the get-go and the he can't believe that Cell, even in his subdued state, is that strong. And keep in mind, prior to this Cell was literally taking zero damage from attacks from Android 16.

[TheMikado]

Cell also displayed practically no effort by Cell when he kicked Vegeta's ass either.

No, 16 even states Perfect Cells power level is lower than Vegetas right after he knocks out Krillin. In universe Cell was holding back even when he hit Krillin. 16 states as much. So that mystery is solved.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m71lnnPI8qs

Android 16 makes the comment in the manga that Cell is much stronger than before and states that Vegeta is better at thim than everything. And that after Cell states he's just warming up and he easily blocks everything Vegeta throws at him. And Android 16 has a shocked look on his face when Cell states he's just warming up. Implying that he though was using all of his strength from the get-go and the he can't believe that Cell, even in his subdued state, is that strong. And keep in mind, prior to this Cell was literally taking zero damage from attacks from Android 16.

So Cell wasn't at full power when he knocked Krillin out, below Vegeta levels and the manga states this clearly.

[Bullza]

Something that may be worth pointing out with this whole thing about Goku holding back.

In the manga Goku fights against Frost in his First Form and it came across as a pretty evenly matched fight with Goku looking like he was taking it pretty seriously too prior to the end. He hit Frost a few times but he was still able to keep fighting.

But even after Frost significantly powered up in his Third Form and knocked Goku down all he said was that it woke up him and he's a slow starter. It's sorta implied he was still stronger.

So it could well be that even when Goku looks like he's fighting seriously and grimacing fighting people like Krillin and Gohan that it's just a similar scenario where he's just starting off slow and not a real indicator of his power.