If Dragonball Z came back on TV would Bruce Faulconer Music come back?

[ABED]

Is the dialogue different there? Yes.

That's not what is happening at all. They change things like Kuririn complaining that Goku is lucky with women to him saying that marriage means Goku's life is over. That's out of character for Kuririn. It's his biggest dream in life to get married. Freeza's entire character is changed. He's no longer a gentlemanly tyrant. It doesn't matter if you prefer it, that's not the character. Goku doesn't preach about showing his enemy mercy especially since we've seen him show his enemies no mercy. The narrator doesn't spout a bunch of cheeseball lines.

No, but there still don't appear to be well-defined criteria.

Yeah there does. Objectivity is about recognizing there's a reality that exists independent of people's opinions, and the way one acquires knowledge of it is through logic and reason.

No it's married to good dialogue that fits the visuals and the dub versions of the characters. It complements the dialogue well and creates themes that enhance what's happening on screen. Though I'll admit that there's probably some truth to the producers not trusting the rest of the show enough and trying to over-compensate with constant music. Once in a while, I do wish it would be silent. But for the most part, it's not an issue.

It is objectively bad dialog. The dialog clashes with the characters and the visuals. If Goku is supposedly this superhero as the dub would like you to believe, why is he letting bad guys go all the time? Bad dialog doesn't convey character. All of the characters in the dub spout cheesy one liners.

sometimes traded sentence fluency for accuracy.

Other than Freeza, can you recall another instance of this?

[thaman91]

No, but there still don't appear to be well-defined criteria.

Yeah there does. Objectivity is about recognizing there's a reality that exists independent of people's opinions, and the way one acquires knowledge of it is through logic and reason.

Objectivity as a general concept is real. The problem is that "good" is inherently an opinionated thing. You can objectively talk about how well a DVD is encoded, because there are concrete ways to measure that. You can define your criteria for judging something as "how close is this translated from the source material" and then objectively make conclusions about that. But when your criteria is how "good" something is....well, then no amount of logic and reasoning can evade that fact that it's rooted in subjectivity. Going back to the criteria of "how close is this translated from the source material", you can subjectively define that as your definition of "good" and then use logic and reasoning to argue how close something is to the source material. However, the very foundations of your position are still just opinions.

No it's married to good dialogue that fits the visuals and the dub versions of the characters. It complements the dialogue well and creates themes that enhance what's happening on screen. Though I'll admit that there's probably some truth to the producers not trusting the rest of the show enough and trying to over-compensate with constant music. Once in a while, I do wish it would be silent. But for the most part, it's not an issue.

It is objectively bad dialog. The dialog clashes with the characters and the visuals. If Goku is supposedly this superhero as the dub would like you to believe, why is he letting bad guys go all the time?

It's not objectively bad dialogue and it doesn't clash with the characters and visuals. As for your question, maybe it's because he still has a bit of Japanese Goku in him. And that makes for an interesting dub experience. We are introduced to Goku as this supposedly selfless guy who always does the right thing. But throughout the show, there are moments where he admits that he likes fighting. And it's fascinating to see that by the Buu arc, it becomes very obvious that he does things just for fighting's sake or pride. From a dub-only perspective, it makes for an interesting discussion. Did Goku become less and less pure as the series goes on? Or was he always like this? Or did he simply begin to embrace his Saiyan heritage more? Either way, I find it to be a compelling journey from beginning to end (that is, beginning of Z dub to end of Z dub).

sometimes traded sentence fluency for accuracy.

Other than Freeza, can you recall another instance of this?

Yes I can. I've already posted it, but here it is again:

Old dub, Vegeta says: "Let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear?!"
Kai dub, Vegeta says: "I am curious, are androids capable of feeling anything akin to real fear?!"

To me, the Kai line is more clunky. And the Kai dub is full of these kinds of lines. Maybe they're more true to the original versions of the characters, but I think that they're sometimes too sophisticated and information-heavy, and sound somewhat unnatural, despite the better voice acting. And again, to reiterate, I still love Kai and how it brings the show closer to the spirit of the original.

[VegettoEX]

I'll ask one last time that non-topical material be taken to another, more-appropriate thread. This is not a thread about Kai's dialog. Thank you!

[thaman91]

I'll ask one last time that non-topical material be taken to another, more-appropriate thread. This is not a thread about Kai's dialog. Thank you!

Sorry about that. Just to clarify, is the "objectivity" discussion with regards to the dub an okay discussion to have here? I know the topic title is about Faulconer, but it's really evolved into a tangent at this point. Are you saying that discussion should also not be going on here or are you just saying that the Kai stuff specifically should be elsewhere? Apologies again for going off topic.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

You are entitled to like the Faulconer score and the original Funimation dub but as others have said that is not TOEI, much less Toriyama's product. Enjoy it all you like but if your going to argue your case for thinking your preferred version is better don't disregard all the contary evidence you've been shown.

Here's something your side is not understanding. Considering the Japanese variant of the DBZ anime the best iteration of the manga IS an opinion. I get that the dialog is altered in ways, but everything else like voices and music? Or discussing ENG Kai? It stops being about a change in the script at that point. No matter how people may try to spin it in circles over and over that what they're saying is far more objective and correct than someone else's, it won't ever stop being their opinion and perception of what they consider this series is and should be.

I also don't get bothered that instead of Goku saying he's gonna kick Frieza's butt one way, he says it in a different way. Is the dialogue different there? Yes. Is it pretty much leading to the same end of Goku wanting to beat up Frieza for being bad and killing his friend? Yes. I can get why someone else gets bothered by it, but I don't feel it detracts from the show at all. If you do, that's fine, but I don't. And yes, I'm referring to that one scene everyone knows about.

I never said that the Japanese version of Z is the best iteration of the manga. As for the Kai dub, it is, in actuality my favourite way of watching the show, largely because I think the reduced filler makes it a better paced story.

[Zephyr]

Considering the Japanese variant of the DBZ anime the best iteration of the manga IS an opinion. I get that the dialog is altered in ways, but everything else like voices and music? Or discussing ENG Kai? It stops being about a change in the script at that point. No matter how people may try to spin it in circles over and over that what they're saying is far more objective and correct than someone else's, it won't ever stop being their opinion and perception of what they consider this series is and should be.

I also don't get bothered that instead of Goku saying he's gonna kick Frieza's butt one way, he says it in a different way. Is the dialogue different there? Yes. Is it pretty much leading to the same end of Goku wanting to beat up Frieza for being bad and killing his friend? Yes. I can get why someone else gets bothered by it, but I don't feel it detracts from the show at all. If you do, that's fine, but I don't. And yes, I'm referring to that one scene everyone knows about.

"The Japanese anime is the best derivative of the manga" is indeed an opinion. However, it is an opinion that stems from the fact that "the Japanese anime is the most faithful to the manga".

Premise: It's more faithful.
Premise: An adaptation being faithful is better than an adaptation being unfaithful.
Conclusion: It's better.

That's the argument.

This first premise is true even beyond merely the scripts. Toriyama handpicked Goku's voice actress, he has Goku mention that Yajirobe sounds like Krillin (they have the same actress in the JPN anime), and during the Buu arc Upa recognizes Goku from his voice alone (implying that his voice can't be too different). As for music, Dragon Ball is 100% a wuxia story about martial artists doing martial arts against other martial artists. A musical score ripped straight out of a Shaw Bros. martial arts movie is very obviously more genre-appropriate than a musical score ripped straight out of Vectorman.

And yes, the way that Goku says he's going to kick Freeza's butt is very important. The very way he articulates his words shows partly who he is, and what his values and priorities are as a person: a country bumpkin fighting junkie who is very pissed off that his best friend is dead; not Superman, not an upholder of justice. The broad strokes of the plot outline may be identical, but the actual characters aren't who they are. Look at the difference between Super's anime and manga for a more contemporary example. They reach the same rough ends and milestones, but Toei's Goku is a very different character from Toyotaro's Goku.

So when you get Funimation's dub, it is literally no longer Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball. Different scripts leading to different characterizations, leading to different characters. Different music painting the story as a completely different genre (something more akin to western superheroes than of eastern martial arts). Is Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball better than FUNimation's Draggin' Bawl Zee? The answer to that certainly is an opinion. However, what isn't an opinion, is the assertion that FUNimation's Draggin' Bawl Zee is not Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball. The share the broad story beats and obviously the animation, but an serialized animated work is obviously far more nuanced than those two qualities, and misses a great amount of the point to try and distill it down just to those two things.

Regarding the actual opinion part, though, it's totally acceptable to have a preference for Funimation's wild derivative of Toei's anime over Toei's relatively faithful derivative of Toriyama's manga. Speaking from personal experience, I've held that very opinion, but as time has gone on, I've only moved away from it. It's still one that's fine to have, though.

It's fine for an adaptation to be different. It's fine for the author of an adaptation to try and convey something different from what the source material had conveyed. However, that's really not the crux of the changes for Funimation having such a different adaptation of the anime. Toei sent them horribly butchered scripts, which is why they altered the dialog, and the resulting characterization, so much. They were basically making up their own characters and more specific plot minutia. The music was changed for cynical marketing reasons, rather than some artistic vision. So while there's nothing inherently wrong with an adaptation making wild changes and liberties, that's generally said in the good faith that wild changes and liberties are being made and taken because of some alternative artistic vision. Funimation's changes to and liberties with their Dragon Ball adaptation are the result, however, of anything but an alternative artistic vision, so I feel like excusing the drastic differences in its version on those sorts of grounds misses the point.

[Gokuisasuperhero]

You are entitled to like the Faulconer score and the original Funimation dub but as others have said that is not TOEI, much less Toriyama's product. Enjoy it all you like but if your going to argue your case for thinking your preferred version is better don't disregard all the contary evidence you've been shown.

Here's something your side is not understanding. Considering the Japanese variant of the DBZ anime the best iteration of the manga IS an opinion. I get that the dialog is altered in ways, but everything else like voices and music? Or discussing ENG Kai? It stops being about a change in the script at that point. No matter how people may try to spin it in circles over and over that what they're saying is far more objective and correct than someone else's, it won't ever stop being their opinion and perception of what they consider this series is and should be.

I also don't get bothered that instead of Goku saying he's gonna kick Frieza's butt one way, he says it in a different way. Is the dialogue different there? Yes. Is it pretty much leading to the same end of Goku wanting to beat up Frieza for being bad and killing his friend? Yes. I can get why someone else gets bothered by it, but I don't feel it detracts from the show at all. If you do, that's fine, but I don't. And yes, I'm referring to that one scene everyone knows about.

Oh I KNOW what speech your talking I LOVE THAT SPPECH and I talking about the English Dub Z version... #AllytoGoodNightmadetoYOU

[Metalwario64]

The thing that's weird as hell is that in the Season 3 dub of Z, they kept Goku's line about enjoying fighting Freeza, but then once he turns Super Saiyan, he suddenly becomes a staunch, outright superhero, and gives his speech about being an ally of justice (e.g. Amelia from Slayers), and spouts off things to Freeza like how his "evil deeds are like a noose around his neck".

It's so inconsistent with itself. They even added a line where Krillin asks Goku if he's enjoying the prospect of fighting Ginyu, and Goku replies "kinda", which wasn't even in the original, and then he goes full superhero mode and tells Ginyu that "helping people can be fun too!"

[Prince of Vegetables]

I would say no. As Bruce Faulconer's music does not fit Dragon Ball

[Gokuisasuperhero]

I would say no. As Bruce Faulconer's music does not fit Dragon Ball

Lol basic on what? Bruce Faulconer's Music DID FIT DBZ and made the anime even more EPIC...

[KentalSSJ6]

I would say no. As Bruce Faulconer's music does not fit Dragon Ball

Lol basic on what? Bruce Faulconer's Music DID FIT DBZ and made the anime even more EPIC...

The more I read your posts, the more I'm convinced you arent really trying to listen to and understand other peoples points and are just trying to stir up a commotion.

[Gokuisasuperhero]

I would say no. As Bruce Faulconer's music does not fit Dragon Ball

Lol basic on what? Bruce Faulconer's Music DID FIT DBZ and made the anime even more EPIC...

The more I read your posts, the more I'm convinced you arent really trying to listen to and understand other peoples points and are just trying to stir up a commotion.

Well lets see? He gave no reason for answer beside "oh it don't fit" that not even getting ANY reasons... And many people here have point why it does fit so this answer was dumb..

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Lol basic on what? Bruce Faulconer's Music DID FIT DBZ and made the anime even more EPIC...

The more I read your posts, the more I'm convinced you arent really trying to listen to and understand other peoples points and are just trying to stir up a commotion.

Well lets see? He gave no reason for answer beside "oh it don't fit" that not even getting ANY reasons... And many people here have point why it does fit so this answer was dumb..

The anti-Faulconer case has been laid out in excruciating detail countless times, if you don't know the arguments at this point, it's your fault. Moreover, from what I saw back when I was participating in the conversation, the only pro-Faulconer rhetoric I heard boiled down "It's good because it's cool and good" or "It's good because it fits the tone that it sets itself", which is a characteristic that you could literally ascribe to anything. I've never heard a case for Faulconer that goes beyond that.

I'd love to hear you make a case for it, though. Although here isn't the best thread.

[Gokuisasuperhero]

The more I read your posts, the more I'm convinced you arent really trying to listen to and understand other peoples points and are just trying to stir up a commotion.

Well lets see? He gave no reason for answer beside "oh it don't fit" that not even getting ANY reasons... And many people here have point why it does fit so this answer was dumb..

The anti-Faulconer case has been laid out in excruciating detail countless times, if you don't know the arguments at this point, it's your fault. Moreover, from what I saw back when I was participating in the conversation, the only pro-Faulconer rhetoric I heard boiled down "It's good because it's cool and good" or "It's good because it fits the tone that it sets itself", which is a characteristic that you could literally ascribe to anything. I've never heard a case for Faulconer that goes beyond that.

I'd love to hear you make a case for it, though. Although here isn't the best thread.

Many have said why it does FIT... DBZ is about fighter and Faulconer song fit this fact... It was perfect for something like DBZ... The Japan music for DBZ is BROADING. I watch it with and it flat out broad it... Hell even Toei did not wanted bring it back. It only came back for Kai b/c the guy that hired to do the songs for Kai plagiarize all his song and got busted. So that had no choice but to used the old song from Z that used in Japan... Which prove that Toei where not of it either... If that REALLY like though song that would keep them

[TheBlackPaladin]

Hell even Toei did not wanted bring it back. It only came back for Kai b/c the guy that hired to do the songs for Kai plagiarize all his song and got busted. So that had no choice but to used the old song from Z that used in Japan... Which prove that Toei where not of it either... If that REALLY like though song that would keep them

I respect your preference, but there appears to be a misunderstanding as to why Kikuchi's music was not (initially) re-used for Kai. It was not re-used for the same reason that Toei had the original cast (or at least as many as they could afford given budget constraints) come in and re-record their dialogue: because they were presenting Kai as something new, rather than a re-cut of DBZ. Granted, a re-cut of DBZ is pretty much exactly what it was and the Kai brand ended up proving toxic for their merchandise sales, but nevertheless, the whole idea behind Kai was that it was being presented as a "new" show. Having a new musical score was to add to the "newness" factor, not because they disliked Kikuchi or his score.

[Prince of Vegetables]

I would say no. As Bruce Faulconer's music does not fit Dragon Ball

Lol basic on what? Bruce Faulconer's Music DID FIT DBZ and made the anime even more EPIC...

Not it does not. Bruce Faulconer's music was produced with Americanisation in mind. Dragon Ball is supposed to have the feel of 60/70's Kung Fu movie. Watch the Original Japanese before judging the music SSUG

[Valerius Dover]

On a related note, I was wondering something. Someone brought up the fact that the score matches the picture a lot more. Since the score is synced to the uncut footage, how does it sound in the edited version? Does it skip or jerk around a lot? The same question would apply to Menza's score for GT.

[VegettoEX]

For the edited versions, they're generally not making their actual edits from a linear, finalized uncut version - they're typically doing so from the master, non-linear project file, which allows them to cut footage without cutting music, or do some fades and dissolves on music where appropriate to keep the next bit's timing in place.

[Gokuisasuperhero]

I would say no. As Bruce Faulconer's music does not fit Dragon Ball

Lol basic on what? Bruce Faulconer's Music DID FIT DBZ and made the anime even more EPIC...

Not it does not. Bruce Faulconer's music was produced with Americanisation in mind. Dragon Ball is supposed to have the feel of 60/70's Kung Fu movie. Watch the Original Japanese before judging the music SSUG

Wrong again... Though "Americanisation" had nothing to do with song dude... It what fit what being show on your TV... And Bruce Songs FIT what was being shown on TV... It a fight show you wanted to get pump up for a fighting show that what Bruce did with his song! Also I watch the Original Japanese song with the English Dub and I HATE IT! ALL THE SONG ARE BOARDING! Bruce song are the best! It make DBZ EPIC!

[VegettoEX]

You're just recycling hyperbolic opinions (and incorrect words) over and over at this point. Enough, please.

Again, you can like whatever you want to like. No-one is (or should be) telling you differently here, and you're entitled to your experiences with the show. However, we have concrete sources pointing to the precise types of replacement music and cynical marketing reasons they were chosen for the English dub of the show. You never seem to acknowledge this, so I'm led to believe you're not actually looking to have the discussion everyone else is having.

Because your question (and various follow-ups) have been answered several times over, and because you are not cooperating with the community and moderators in this thread, this will now be locked. Please review the forum rules before making any further contributions.