If you bring back the old cast why are people complaining about powerlevels??

[Luso Saiyan]

Just knowing who is stronger than whom is also a part of scale.. we don't know that right now either..
There are people arguing about only Krillin in these many ways

What exactly don't we know? And people argue about speculation, misinformation and nonsense. Always did and sadly always will.There's nothing new there.

[Ki Breaker]

Just knowing who is stronger than whom is also a part of scale.. we don't know that right now either..
There are people arguing about only Krillin in these many ways

What exactly don't we know? And people argue about speculation, misinformation and nonsense. Always did and sadly always will.There's nothing new there.

If instances are all you want, head on over the the power level discussion thread, members go in depth over this issue there, more so than I could in a few words

[TheMikado]

Just knowing who is stronger than whom is also a part of scale.. we don't know that right now either..
There are people arguing about only Krillin in these many ways

What exactly don't we know? And people argue about speculation, misinformation and nonsense. Always did and sadly always will.There's nothing new there.

So question for you?

Because you claim there is no scale and its all fan made up, don't you think Krillin has a good shot at taking down Beerus?

[Lord Beerus]

If Dragon Ball Super went down the conventional route of power scaling, then absolutely no-one would matter in the narrative beyond Goku and Vegeta because they are respectively much stronger that everyone else in the central cast. And Super is already dealing with major complaints that Goku and Vegeta do everything the show. So having guys like Roshi, Tenshinhan and Krillin being brought back into prominence is a very welcome direction to me. Super wants everyone in the team to be super strong and awesome and not feel like jobbers or dead weight compared to Goku and Vegeta and contribute something of importance to the plot. It's like the polar opposite of GT. For me, it make things way interesting, and I kinda adore Super for taking this approach. There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency in power strength, but that doesn't matter much if the story itself is uninteresting and doesn't experiment with other members of the cast to bring something unique to the plot. If a shake up of the status quo is needed to make the narrative more intriguing and have we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.then so be it. I'd much rather have an interesting show with an unorthodox approach to power, strategy and teamwork, where all the cast feel worthwhile, than just a run-of-the-mill fighting show where you know the supporting can't do anything and the main character(s) are untouchable. We already had that with GT. Let Super be its own thing.

Just knowing who is stronger than whom is also a part of scale.. we don't know that right now either..
There are people arguing about only Krillin in these many ways

What exactly don't we know? And people argue about speculation, misinformation and nonsense. Always did and sadly always will.There's nothing new there.

So question for you?

Because you claim there is no scale and its all fan made up, don't you think Krillin has a good shot at taking down Beerus?

Well, considering that fact he was strong enough to survive Perfect Cell, he has every chance if he trains hard enough.

[dragonballgeek]

I have no problem with the cast returning. I think it's awesome! They just need to be more consistent with power scaling.

What scale is that? The one that's only been established in some fans' heads?

If tactics worked on unbelievably powerful opponents, then the Z fighters would've found a way to overcome the obstacle of Beerus being 53875875387 times stronger than them.

Why? Who said it's about "tactics" with Beerus? It has nothing to do with Beerus.

What they're doing isn't consistent with Z or even Super for that matter.

What's not consistent?

Gimme a good valid reason why they are suddenly so strong and I am good to go

They've always been strong. There's nothing "sudden" about it. They were simply deemed strong enough to enter the Tournament.

Are you really having a hard time following what I'm talking about..?

1) The scale I'm referring to is the one that's been established throughout the whole series. Krillin, Tien, Roshi and a couple others are so far behind on the power scaling that a mere few weeks of training should not be enough time to make them relevant. Especially since they haven't done anything drastic. If you're still confused somehow I'll break it down Barney Style for you. The power gap between Krillin is unbelievably large. The power gap between Tien and Cell are even larger, and the power gap between Roshi and Kid Buu is unspeakably large.

2) seriously, have you been living under a rock..? Everyone's argument about making the fighters relevant again through tactics and not power has been the general discussion. Guys like you think that Krillin, Tien and Roshi can be relevant again just by the use of tactics. Well we've found out recently ( and in Z) that when your opponent is overwhelmingly powerful, tactics are useless. For example. 18 and Krillin vs Kid Buu is a fight that no matter how you slice it, they will lose. Even if you add in Tien and Roshi, it's useless. 0+0 still equals 0. Using Beerus earlier was another example of tactics not working due to overwhelming power gap.

I'm just going to stop right here because I feeling like you're just trolling me. There's no way you can be this oblivious to what I'm talking about.

[Beyond]

The problem is everyone wants different things, and the show executes most of these things in controversial manners. I'm welling to fudge the power levels if it means my favorites get shine, but I do think it could have been executed a lot better. However It's clear that super doesn't care about power level consistency beyond "this person is weaker than this person", and if you can't handle that, you're probably wasting your time on this show. I think everything will become clear in the next 3- 4 episodes on how this show handles its power scale, and a lot of people will have to suck it up, leave, or keep complaining on something that most likely won't get any better.

[TheMikado]

The problem is everyone wants different things, and the show executes most of these things in controversial manners. I'm welling to fudge the power levels if it means my favorites get shine, but I do think it could have been executed a lot better. However It's clear that super doesn't care about power level consistency beyond "this person is weaker than this person", and if you can't handle that, you're probably wasting your time on this show. I think everything will become clear in the next 3- 4 episodes on how this show handles its power scale, and a lot of people will have to suck it up, leave, or keep complaining on something that most likely won't get any better.

Exactly. My only complaints are that:
1) it keeps getting worse, but I'm use to it so its not such a big deal
2) its there is a constant attempt to justify and retroactively persecute Z.

Outside of these two things I could care less because they (the writers) don't care. It does affect the consistency and my enjoyment of the show, but like I said I'm use it.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

If Dragon Ball Super went down the conventional route of power scaling, then absolutely no-one would matter in the narrative beyond Goku and Vegeta because they are respectively much stronger that everyone else in the central cast. And Super is already dealing with major complaints that Goku and Vegeta do everything the show. So having guys like Roshi, Tenshinhan and Krillin being brought back into prominence is a very welcome direction to me. Super wants everyone in the team to be super strong and awesome and not feel like jobbers or dead weight compared to Goku and Vegeta and contribute something of importance to the plot. It's like the polar opposite of GT. For me, it make things way interesting, and I kinda adore Super for taking this approach. There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency in power strength, but that doesn't matter much if the story itself is uninteresting and doesn't experiment with other members of the cast to bring something unique to the plot. If a shake up of the status quo is needed to make the narrative more intriguing and have we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.then so be it. I'd much rather have an interesting show with an unorthodox approach to power, strategy and teamwork, where all the cast feel worthwhile, than just a run-of-the-mill fighting show where you know the supporting can't do anything and the main character(s) are untouchable. We already had that with GT. Let Super be its own thing.

What exactly don't we know? And people argue about speculation, misinformation and nonsense. Always did and sadly always will.There's nothing new there.

So question for you?

Because you claim there is no scale and its all fan made up, don't you think Krillin has a good shot at taking down Beerus?

Well, considering that fact he was strong enough to survive Perfect Cell, he has every chance if he trains hard enough.

This is the thing, if super actually payed attention to power scailing then the only two characters that matter to the story would be Goku and Vegeta.

Look at the manga for proof, Future Trunks has down two things in his own arc in the manga because how much attention it pays to power scailing.
1. Tell Goku and Vegeta about Black( as unimportant as Future Trunks has been in the manga, Mai or Bulma could have down this.)
2. Get bodied by Black and wait for Goku and Vegeta to handle it for him.

[TheMikado]

If Dragon Ball Super went down the conventional route of power scaling, then absolutely no-one would matter in the narrative beyond Goku and Vegeta because they are respectively much stronger that everyone else in the central cast. And Super is already dealing with major complaints that Goku and Vegeta do everything the show. So having guys like Roshi, Tenshinhan and Krillin being brought back into prominence is a very welcome direction to me. Super wants everyone in the team to be super strong and awesome and not feel like jobbers or dead weight compared to Goku and Vegeta and contribute something of importance to the plot. It's like the polar opposite of GT. For me, it make things way interesting, and I kinda adore Super for taking this approach. There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency in power strength, but that doesn't matter much if the story itself is uninteresting and doesn't experiment with other members of the cast to bring something unique to the plot. If a shake up of the status quo is needed to make the narrative more intriguing and have we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.then so be it. I'd much rather have an interesting show with an unorthodox approach to power, strategy and teamwork, where all the cast feel worthwhile, than just a run-of-the-mill fighting show where you know the supporting can't do anything and the main character(s) are untouchable. We already had that with GT. Let Super be its own thing.

So question for you?

Because you claim there is no scale and its all fan made up, don't you think Krillin has a good shot at taking down Beerus?

Well, considering that fact he was strong enough to survive Perfect Cell, he has every chance if he trains hard enough.

This is the thing, if super actually payed atteintion then the only two characters that matter to the story would be Goku and Vegeta.

Look at the manga for proof Future Trunks has two things his own arc in the manga because how much atteition it pays to power scailing.
1. Tell Goku and Vegeta about Black( as unimportant as Future Trunks has been in the manga Mai or Bulma could have down this.)
2. Get bodied by Black and wait for Goku and Vegeta to handle it for him.

Same thing happened to Future Trunks in the Z arc, he and Vegeta didn't really accomplish anything short of actually letting Cell become perfect. Despite all their power and of them gathered there the only person who could beat Cell was Gohan, and not due to his experience or martial arts abilities or tactics, but because of raw power.

They had a combine hundreds of years of fighting experience and power and strength and tactics, and the only one not getting pummelled to crap by Cell Jrs. was the kid with no desire to fight, inexperience, no fighting tactics, etc. He was just more powerful and that's all that mattered. That all that's ever mattered in Z.

[perucho1990]

I have no problem with the cast returning. I think it's awesome! They just need to be more consistent with power scaling.

If tactics worked on unbelievably powerful opponents, then the Z fighters would've found a way to overcome the obstacle of Beerus being 53875875387 times stronger than them. What they're doing isn't consistent with Z or even Super for that matter. And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting consistency in a series. Strength wise, the characters they're having come back are wayyyyy back there on the power scale. Like krillin. Krillin stopped fighting after the cell games ended. He's been inactive for years and now is all of a sudden physically in great shape after training for a little while?


The problem isn't that we don't want the old characters back. The problem is how they're going about it.

This guy basically hit the nail on the head. We have been hammered for decades about how once the power gap is significant enough there's literally nothing you can do short of blowing yourself up (And half the time that didn't even work!!!!) But that's how TORIYAMA wrote his manga. But now we have a new product several years later, with no clue as to what actually came from the author and using a method to greatly differs both from RoF and BoG.

I want eveyone to see this: TORIYAMA has been consistent even in recent media which we KNOW he's written that POWER trumps tactics. We have no word on what Toriyama thinks of this arc, how much he's contributed etc. In fact, it seems like its written like a video game where all characters are relevant. Using One Piece is a bad example, raw strength does not overcome skill and One Piece has much better balancing. Even Pokemon does.

Anyway, changing the rules even just from BoG and RoF is what makes this weird. It's like the switched gears literally in the middle of the series for no apparent reason whatsoever.
We went from Krillin powering up and base Goku hitting him once which sent him flying several miles to some kind of sparring match with Goku. If you have been watching and paying attention it leaves you scratching your head.

Boruto is doing it that with the new Gokage somehow being useful when you have the God-Tiers Naruto and Sasuke, and they had offscreen training that put them above the old Gokage, its basically the same thing in DBS with the side characters and God Tier Goku(not including Vegeta because he hasnt done anything worthy since the end of the Black Arc).

Although it also somehow feels DBS also uses the OPM logic, OPM has the logic of becoming stronger offscreen(Genos, Sonic) or when you become a monster due to stupid stuff like eating crabs or enjoyign S&M or because a spider got stuck in your ear, etc.

Example is Tagoma going from Zarbon level to capable of curbstomping Piccolo, thats OPM logic, most likely because the writers want DBS to be part gag series too.

Or Trunks reaching God-Tier level in days, no different from Genos countless or powerups.

[dragonballgeek]

If Dragon Ball Super went down the conventional route of power scaling, then absolutely no-one would matter in the narrative beyond Goku and Vegeta because they are respectively much stronger that everyone else in the central cast. And Super is already dealing with major complaints that Goku and Vegeta do everything the show. So having guys like Roshi, Tenshinhan and Krillin being brought back into prominence is a very welcome direction to me. Super wants everyone in the team to be super strong and awesome and not feel like jobbers or dead weight compared to Goku and Vegeta and contribute something of importance to the plot. It's like the polar opposite of GT. For me, it make things way interesting, and I kinda adore Super for taking this approach. There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency in power strength, but that doesn't matter much if the story itself is uninteresting and doesn't experiment with other members of the cast to bring something unique to the plot. If a shake up of the status quo is needed to make the narrative more intriguing and have we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.then so be it. I'd much rather have an interesting show with an unorthodox approach to power, strategy and teamwork, where all the cast feel worthwhile, than just a run-of-the-mill fighting show where you know the supporting can't do anything and the main character(s) are untouchable. We already had that with GT. Let Super be its own thing.

I agree with you for the most part. The problem most of us are getting at is how they're making them relevant. The way they're going about it is just very very poor writing. You don't go an entire series of letting people fall behind in the power hierarchy and just BS them back into relevance. If they're too weak you don't pretend that the past never happened.

They made a super poor attempt at making Krillin relevant again. He pretty decided he was going to train again after almost 10 years of no real training. And because of this he was able to catch off guard Gohan (who on his worse day realistically would not fall for a trick like that). Especially after he just left a fight similar to the one he had st the exhibition match.

In the old Z days, when the cast fell behind, they would train with Gokus teachers. Roshi/Kami/king kai. The only logical approach is to have the others train with Whis. Krillin deciding to buying weight racks to support his new training regiment is just stupid. Training with a divine being is something that seems necessary after everything that's happened and the only real way to justify such drastic power boosts from lower tier fighters.


I'm willing to admit that I don't know what will happen down the road. That could be something they do in a later arc if it's ever Dieties vs Mortals or something. The point is, there's a good way to fix inconsistencies in a show and a bad way, and it looks like they chose a bad way.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

If Dragon Ball Super went down the conventional route of power scaling, then absolutely no-one would matter in the narrative beyond Goku and Vegeta because they are respectively much stronger that everyone else in the central cast. And Super is already dealing with major complaints that Goku and Vegeta do everything the show. So having guys like Roshi, Tenshinhan and Krillin being brought back into prominence is a very welcome direction to me. Super wants everyone in the team to be super strong and awesome and not feel like jobbers or dead weight compared to Goku and Vegeta and contribute something of importance to the plot. It's like the polar opposite of GT. For me, it make things way interesting, and I kinda adore Super for taking this approach. There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency in power strength, but that doesn't matter much if the story itself is uninteresting and doesn't experiment with other members of the cast to bring something unique to the plot. If a shake up of the status quo is needed to make the narrative more intriguing and have we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.then so be it. I'd much rather have an interesting show with an unorthodox approach to power, strategy and teamwork, where all the cast feel worthwhile, than just a run-of-the-mill fighting show where you know the supporting can't do anything and the main character(s) are untouchable. We already had that with GT. Let Super be its own thing.


Well, considering that fact he was strong enough to survive Perfect Cell, he has every chance if he trains hard enough.

This is the thing, if super actually payed atteintion then the only two characters that matter to the story would be Goku and Vegeta.

Look at the manga for proof Future Trunks has two things his own arc in the manga because how much atteition it pays to power scailing.
1. Tell Goku and Vegeta about Black( as unimportant as Future Trunks has been in the manga Mai or Bulma could have down this.)
2. Get bodied by Black and wait for Goku and Vegeta to handle it for him.

Same thing happened to Future Trunks in the Z arc, he and Vegeta didn't really accomplish anything short of actually letting Cell become perfect. Despite all their power and of them gathered there the only person who could beat Cell was Gohan, and not due to his experience or martial arts abilities or tactics, but because of raw power.

They had a combine hundreds of years of fighting experience and power and strength and tactics, and the only one not getting pummelled to crap by Cell Jrs. was the kid with no desire to fight, inexperience, no fighting tactics, etc. He was just more powerful and that's all that mattered. That all that's ever mattered in Z.

You are right.

But that was pretty much the worst thing Z did, make everything about power levels.

It literary made every single body besides the Saiyans ompletely useless by the time the android arc came besides Piccolo and he became completely worthless in z after his fight with 17 and Imperfect Cell and only did these four things he did afterwards.

1. Stall Super Buu
2. Babysit kids
3. Blow up the time chamber
4. Give up against Kaioshin
5. Get owned by Dabura

[ChaosLordBrandon]

If Dragon Ball Super went down the conventional route of power scaling, then absolutely no-one would matter in the narrative beyond Goku and Vegeta because they are respectively much stronger that everyone else in the central cast. And Super is already dealing with major complaints that Goku and Vegeta do everything the show. So having guys like Roshi, Tenshinhan and Krillin being brought back into prominence is a very welcome direction to me. Super wants everyone in the team to be super strong and awesome and not feel like jobbers or dead weight compared to Goku and Vegeta and contribute something of importance to the plot. It's like the polar opposite of GT. For me, it make things way interesting, and I kinda adore Super for taking this approach. There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency in power strength, but that doesn't matter much if the story itself is uninteresting and doesn't experiment with other members of the cast to bring something unique to the plot. If a shake up of the status quo is needed to make the narrative more intriguing and have we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.then so be it. I'd much rather have an interesting show with an unorthodox approach to power, strategy and teamwork, where all the cast feel worthwhile, than just a run-of-the-mill fighting show where you know the supporting can't do anything and the main character(s) are untouchable. We already had that with GT. Let Super be its own thing.

I agree with you for the most part. The problem most of us are getting at is how they're making them relevant. The way they're going about it is just very very poor writing. You don't go an entire series of letting people fall behind in the power hierarchy and just BS them back into relevance. If they're too weak you don't pretend that the past never happened.

They made a super poor attempt at making Krillin relevant again. He pretty decided he was going to train again after almost 10 years of no real training. And because of this he was able to catch off guard Gohan (who on his worse day realistically would not fall for a trick like that). Especially after he just left a fight similar to the one he had st the exhibition match.

In the old Z days, when the cast fell behind, they would train with Gokus teachers. Roshi/Kami/king kai. The only logical approach is to have the others train with Whis. Krillin deciding to buying weight racks to support his new training regiment is just stupid. Training with a divine being is something that seems necessary after everything that's happened and the only real way to justify such drastic power boosts from lower tier fighters.


I'm willing to admit that I don't know what will happen down the road. That could be something they do in a later arc if it's ever Dieties vs Mortals or something. The point is, there's a good way to fix inconsistencies in a show and a bad way, and it looks like they chose a bad way.

When people fell behind in z they became utterly and completely worthless.

Look at every single non saiyan character in z for proof and Goten and Trunks needed fusion just to matter the power level focus in Z.


Name a single thing a non saiyan character did in Z after the Freeza arc besides Tien doing nothing to Cell and Piccolo becoming worthless during the middle low point in the android arc aka as soon as he ran into Imperfect Cell again.
.

[Lord Beerus]

If Dragon Ball Super went down the conventional route of power scaling, then absolutely no-one would matter in the narrative beyond Goku and Vegeta because they are respectively much stronger that everyone else in the central cast. And Super is already dealing with major complaints that Goku and Vegeta do everything the show. So having guys like Roshi, Tenshinhan and Krillin being brought back into prominence is a very welcome direction to me. Super wants everyone in the team to be super strong and awesome and not feel like jobbers or dead weight compared to Goku and Vegeta and contribute something of importance to the plot. It's like the polar opposite of GT. For me, it make things way interesting, and I kinda adore Super for taking this approach. There's nothing wrong with wanting consistency in power strength, but that doesn't matter much if the story itself is uninteresting and doesn't experiment with other members of the cast to bring something unique to the plot. If a shake up of the status quo is needed to make the narrative more intriguing and have we have to break some non-established and already contradictory power hierarchy "rules" to give guys like Krillin, Roshi and Tien their moment in the sun, while also bringing back an essence of the teamwork and strategy that has been lost in Dragon Ball for so many years, then so be it.then so be it. I'd much rather have an interesting show with an unorthodox approach to power, strategy and teamwork, where all the cast feel worthwhile, than just a run-of-the-mill fighting show where you know the supporting can't do anything and the main character(s) are untouchable. We already had that with GT. Let Super be its own thing.


Well, considering that fact he was strong enough to survive Perfect Cell, he has every chance if he trains hard enough.

This is the thing, if super actually payed atteintion then the only two characters that matter to the story would be Goku and Vegeta.

Look at the manga for proof Future Trunks has two things his own arc in the manga because how much atteition it pays to power scailing.
1. Tell Goku and Vegeta about Black( as unimportant as Future Trunks has been in the manga Mai or Bulma could have down this.)
2. Get bodied by Black and wait for Goku and Vegeta to handle it for him.

Same thing happened to Future Trunks in the Z arc, he and Vegeta didn't really accomplish anything short of actually letting Cell become perfect. Despite all their power and of them gathered there the only person who could beat Cell was Gohan, and not due to his experience or martial arts abilities or tactics, but because of raw power.

They had a combine hundreds of years of fighting experience and power and strength and tactics, and the only one not getting pummelled to crap by Cell Jrs. was the kid with no desire to fight, inexperience, no fighting tactics, etc. He was just more powerful and that's all that mattered. That all that's ever mattered in Z.

The difference in how Future Trunks was handled in Z and how he has be handled in the Future Trunks arc arc of the Super manga, is that he feels important and integral to the plot even when he doesn't win all the time. His biggest contributions to the plot in the Super manga was telling Goku and Vegeta about Goku Black and making sure that Goku and Vegeta escaped to the past after the first battle. After that, he becomes a glorified jobber. Even after Future Trunks tells Goku about the Androids and what happens in the future, and even though he gets his ass kicked by Android 18, he still retains and position of importance to the plot, whether it's saving Krillin and Vegeta's life after the both of them get attacked by Perfect Cell, or actually managing to become stronger than Perfect Cell and holding his own in battle against him, despite the circumstances. He still has a role of some kind of importance in the plot, instead of being total dead weight after the his debut, like he is the manga. Goku and Vegeta treated like their the only people who actually stand a chance against Goku Black and Zamasu in the manga.

[perucho1990]

I agree with you for the most part. The problem most of us are getting at is how they're making them relevant. The way they're going about it is just very very poor writing. You don't go an entire series of letting people fall behind in the power hierarchy and just BS them back into relevance. If they're too weak you don't pretend that the past never happened.

They made a super poor attempt at making Krillin relevant again. He pretty decided he was going to train again after almost 10 years of no real training. And because of this he was able to catch off guard Gohan (who on his worse day realistically would not fall for a trick like that). Especially after he just left a fight similar to the one he had st the exhibition match.

In the old Z days, when the cast fell behind, they would train with Gokus teachers. Roshi/Kami/king kai. The only logical approach is to have the others train with Whis. Krillin deciding to buying weight racks to support his new training regiment is just stupid. Training with a divine being is something that seems necessary after everything that's happened and the only real way to justify such drastic power boosts from lower tier fighters.


I'm willing to admit that I don't know what will happen down the road. That could be something they do in a later arc if it's ever Dieties vs Mortals or something. The point is, there's a good way to fix inconsistencies in a show and a bad way, and it looks like they chose a bad way.

Gohan was holding back, even Krillin noticed it and got upset about Gohan understimating him, when Gohan was blinded, Krillin didnt fool around like Lavenda, and went for the win right away, Krillin didnt let Gohan focus and concentrate like in the exhibition match.

[Ki Breaker]

Boruto is doing it that with the new Gokage somehow being useful when you have the God-Tiers Naruto and Sasuke, and they had offscreen training that put them above the old Gokage, its basically the same thing in DBS with the side characters and God Tier Goku(not including Vegeta because he hasnt done anything worthy since the end of the Black Arc).

Part of the reason why I don't think Boruto would work..
In my book, it absolutely sucks, it sucks so much dick super is gold Infront of it..

You are right about wanting consistency as well, it's great characters are returning, but how hard is it to have them train with whis if you are gonna show them take down people who should be far above their league, when it's established that technique alone can't defeat such opponents

[perucho1990]

Part of the reason why I don't think Boruto would work..
In my book, it absolutely sucks, it sucks so much dick super is gold Infront of it..

You are right about wanting consistency as well, it's great characters are returning, but how hard is it to have them train with whis if you are gonna show them take down people who should be far above their league, when it's established that technique alone can't defeat such opponents

When did that happen? If you mean Goku using Blue then:

He was only testing Krillin, he was nowhere near as serious as when he used Blue vs Bergamo or Toppo.
18 only kicked Gokus hands, and never kicked the kamehameha.

About Fit Buu, we never got to see him his full capability in that form because Satan told him to not going for the kill, but him reaching God-Tier due to training makes more than than Frieza reaching God-Tier.

We will have to wait how 17 does vs Blue.

[TheMikado]

When people fell behind in z they became utterly and completely worthless.

Look at every single non saiyan character in z for proof and Goten and Trunks needed fusion just to matter the power level focus in Z.


Name a single thing a non saiyan character did in Z after the Freeza arc besides Tien doing nothing to Cell and Piccolo becoming worthless during the middle low point in the android arc aka as soon as he ran into Imperfect Cell again.

I agree with you for the most part. The problem most of us are getting at is how they're making them relevant. The way they're going about it is just very very poor writing. You don't go an entire series of letting people fall behind in the power hierarchy and just BS them back into relevance. If they're too weak you don't pretend that the past never happened.

They made a super poor attempt at making Krillin relevant again. He pretty decided he was going to train again after almost 10 years of no real training. And because of this he was able to catch off guard Gohan (who on his worse day realistically would not fall for a trick like that). Especially after he just left a fight similar to the one he had st the exhibition match.

In the old Z days, when the cast fell behind, they would train with Gokus teachers. Roshi/Kami/king kai. The only logical approach is to have the others train with Whis. Krillin deciding to buying weight racks to support his new training regiment is just stupid. Training with a divine being is something that seems necessary after everything that's happened and the only real way to justify such drastic power boosts from lower tier fighters.


I'm willing to admit that I don't know what will happen down the road. That could be something they do in a later arc if it's ever Dieties vs Mortals or something. The point is, there's a good way to fix inconsistencies in a show and a bad way, and it looks like they chose a bad way.

You guys are pretty much encapsulating the problem. Part of Zs criticism is the the focus on power above all to the point where the plot and story fall victim to it. I 100% agree that's what happened and it wasn't a good thing.

The problem is if you are going to make everyone relevant again the FIRST TWO ARCS cannot be about putting massive power gaps between your main characters and secondary characters. Seriously making them like 200,000,000% stronger was not the way to do that. (And I say that much stronger from the Buu saga because Goku in base in above SSJ3 Gotenks so at least 400x stronger times the ability that he can go SSJ3 so 400 x 400 = 160,000 We still don't know the multiplier for SSB, but to keep it conservative I will go with x500 vs SSJ3 x400.. so not even a 20% increase over SSJ3. 200,000x multiplied by his ability to use kaioken x10 puts that at = 2,000,000x and on percentages thats 200,000,000% stronger from base Goku in Buu arc to SSB x10 x KK.. Please bear in mind I only gave a 20% increase over SSJ3 to SSB so its extremely conservative.)

Anyway the point is, you can't inflate power levels that high, in such a short amount of time and then go back an say, oh they trained for a few hours and go are even at 1% of the level of strength Goku and Vegeta gained. I think by and large everyone would love for characters to be relevant, but in a way that makes sense to the narrative. There are much better ways to make that happen. Pokemon is able to make that happen with the unevolved forms of Pokemon and that fighting system is FAR FAR more intricate and has been enjoyed by much younger kids. There's no excuse for DB when Pokemon of all things can keep a more consistent fighting system.

[Ki Breaker]

Part of the reason why I don't think Boruto would work..
In my book, it absolutely sucks, it sucks so much dick super is gold Infront of it..

You are right about wanting consistency as well, it's great characters are returning, but how hard is it to have them train with whis if you are gonna show them take down people who should be far above their league, when it's established that technique alone can't defeat such opponents

When did that happen? If you mean Goku using Blue then:

He was only testing Krillin, he was nowhere near as serious as when he used Blue vs Bergamo or Toppo.
18 only kicked Gokus hands, and never kicked the kamehameha.

About Fit Buu, we never got to see him his full capability in that form because Satan told him to not going for the kill, but him reaching God-Tier due to training makes more than than Frieza reaching God-Tier.

We will have to wait how 17 does vs Blue.

These didn't happen yet, I am talking about them going to fight in this tournament, this is speculation about the future on what can happen and how to avoid it.. that's why the "if" before bolded statement

[The gr]

When people fell behind in z they became utterly and completely worthless.

Look at every single non saiyan character in z for proof and Goten and Trunks needed fusion just to matter the power level focus in Z.


Name a single thing a non saiyan character did in Z after the Freeza arc besides Tien doing nothing to Cell and Piccolo becoming worthless during the middle low point in the android arc aka as soon as he ran into Imperfect Cell again.

I agree with you for the most part. The problem most of us are getting at is how they're making them relevant. The way they're going about it is just very very poor writing. You don't go an entire series of letting people fall behind in the power hierarchy and just BS them back into relevance. If they're too weak you don't pretend that the past never happened.

They made a super poor attempt at making Krillin relevant again. He pretty decided he was going to train again after almost 10 years of no real training. And because of this he was able to catch off guard Gohan (who on his worse day realistically would not fall for a trick like that). Especially after he just left a fight similar to the one he had st the exhibition match.

In the old Z days, when the cast fell behind, they would train with Gokus teachers. Roshi/Kami/king kai. The only logical approach is to have the others train with Whis. Krillin deciding to buying weight racks to support his new training regiment is just stupid. Training with a divine being is something that seems necessary after everything that's happened and the only real way to justify such drastic power boosts from lower tier fighters.


I'm willing to admit that I don't know what will happen down the road. That could be something they do in a later arc if it's ever Dieties vs Mortals or something. The point is, there's a good way to fix inconsistencies in a show and a bad way, and it looks like they chose a bad way.

You guys are pretty much encapsulating the problem. Part of Zs criticism is the the focus on power above all to the point where the plot and story fall victim to it. I 100% agree that's what happened and it wasn't a good thing.

The problem is if you are going to make everyone relevant again the FIRST TWO ARCS cannot be about putting massive power gaps between your main characters and secondary characters. Seriously making them like 200,000,000% stronger was not the way to do that. (And I say that much stronger from the Buu saga because Goku in base in above SSJ3 Gotenks so at least 400x stronger times the ability that he can go SSJ3 so 400 x 400 = 160,000 We still don't know the multiplier for SSB, but to keep it conservative I will go with x500 vs SSJ3 x400.. so not even a 20% increase over SSJ3. 200,000x multiplied by his ability to use kaioken x10 puts that at = 2,000,000x and on percentages thats 200,000,000% stronger from base Goku in Buu arc to SSB x10 x KK.. Please bear in mind I only gave a 20% increase over SSJ3 to SSB so its extremely conservative.)

Anyway the point is, you can't inflate power levels that high, in such a short amount of time and then go back an say, oh they trained for a few hours and go are even at 1% of the level of strength Goku and Vegeta gained. I think by and large everyone would love for characters to be relevant, but in a way that makes sense to the narrative. There are much better ways to make that happen. Pokemon is able to make that happen with the unevolved forms of Pokemon and that fighting system is FAR FAR more intricate and has been enjoyed by much younger kids. There's no excuse for DB when Pokemon of all things can keep a more consistent fighting system.

That makes no sense, the Pokemon anime have been just as inconsistent as base goku from DBS , examples Uber chu.I somewhat agreed​ with you, super has a noble idea of using tactics over power, and making old character return, but it contradict the bland rule of DBZ is, more power and more saiyan, villain, again I liked the idea, but they need a better excuse for krillin being strong besides doing exercises, like say he was in the hyperbolic plot chamber for a day, and they need to convey goku holding back a bit better