Kai vs. Z Dub

[ABED]

I never heard any menace from Young's performance. I heard someone attempting to sound menacing. And I can't help but think that the people who claim the cheesy jokes adds a creepy contrast to Freeza's brutality have to convince themselves of that. While it COULD be a choice that works, it requires better writing and acting.

Exactly. If Linda Young had been the choice for the Kai dub, assuming her vocal output is similar to how it was in Z, I wouldn't be thrilled, but it would probably be fine. No doubt that Young's original problems are usually the fault of poor direction, same as everything else in that dub.

I do doubt that as I don't rate her highly as an actress. It's not the fault of the direction, it's her. I'm not knocking her as a person, just her performance. Besides, she wasn't right for the role to begin with. A good actor can often make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.

[The Patrolman]

Old dub, Vegeta says: "Let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear?!"
Kai dub, Vegeta says: "I am curious, are androids capable of feeling anything akin to real fear?!"

I prefer the old dub here because yes its simplistic but its straight. In Kai there is no weight to it. It sounds like a teacher asking this question.

[Bansho64]

Old dub, Vegeta says: "Let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear?!"
Kai dub, Vegeta says: "I am curious, are androids capable of feeling anything akin to real fear?!"

I prefer the old dub here because yes its simplistic but its straight. In Kai there is no weight to it. It sounds like a teacher asking this question.

How does it sound like a teacher asking a question? Because it's actually sophisticated?

[thaman91]

I never heard any menace from Young's performance. I heard someone attempting to sound menacing.

Well I did hear menace in the performance rather than just an attempt at such.

It could work if Michael Madsen did it in a Tarantino movie, but it doesn't here. Freeza saying "Pop goes the weasel" comes across as goofy, not scary.

It works because it shows his psychopathic nature. He continues to say cheesy jokes completely insensitive to the gravitas of having just brutally murdered someone (one of our protagonists, no less). It shows that Freeza is just this vile creature that has the audacity to treat one of our protagonists as a mere disposable toy and then laugh about it as a child might if he broke a toy that he doesn't even care about because he's rich and can get a new toy tomorrow (or because he still has 3 more toys left to play with break). And he treats Krillin like this. So it does work. It makes me pumped to see Goku demolish him.

And I can't help but think that the people who claim the cheesy jokes adds a creepy contrast to Freeza's brutality have to convince themselves of that.

Well you can think what you want but this isn't really the "ABED makes baseless assumptions about why other fans like things" game. And the "I can't help but think" phrase you started off with isn't doing your supposed position of objectivity any favors. Where's the objective data? Where's the analysis of said data? What basis do you actually have for that claim besides "I personally don't feel that way, therefore others who do must just be convincing themselves of it"?

Anyway, I think I've articulated enough why I think the dub as a whole (dialogue+voices+visuals+music) is good. Not super amazing. Not flawless. Not even better than the Kai dub or Japanese original. Just...(completely on its own merits and viewed in its own context)....good. And I decided to go more into detail because others (either in this thread or the other one we were discussing this on) had said something like "It irks me when people play the subjectivity card without actually articulating why they think something is good". So I thought I'd try to articulate myself in more detail. But when I finally do, I get hit with "Oh you don't actually believe what you're saying, you're just convincing yourself that you do"......Really?

And really Freeza, you're then going to say "Pop goes the weasel" after murdering one of our protagonists?! I hope Goku wrecks you.

And you weren't rooting for Goku to kick the crap out of him before? Isn't him laughing at Kuririn's death already enough sadistic glee? FUNi didn't have to resort to lame insults and undercut the moment.

Of course I was rooting for Goku prior to that line. But I still liked that he said it. The contrast is present not only in Freeza's own brutality vs. his demeanor, but also in Freeza's reality vs. Goku & his friends' reality. In Freeza's reality, nothing significant has really happened; he's like Sid from Toy Story blowing up the soldier toy as he continues to act normally with the cheesy lines, completely oblivious to what impact his actions have had on Goku. Compare that with Goku's reality where he's just witnessed his best friend be brutally murdered; and all the murderer has to say about it is "Pop goes the weasel!" whilst laughing. I love it.

[8000 Saiyan]

Exactly. If Linda Young had been the choice for the Kai dub, assuming her vocal output is similar to how it was in Z, I wouldn't be thrilled, but it would probably be fine. No doubt that Young's original problems are usually the fault of poor direction, same as everything else in that dub.

I don't think she would have improved in the slightest. She was the wrong choice for Frieza from day 1.

You say all those things about how the cheesy jokes show Freeza's insensitivity, I just hear a bad actress spouting lines by terrible writers. Everyone in that series spouts terrible cheesy jokes, there's no differentiation. It's execution. In essence, everything you say could work, but in this case it doesn't.

I've heard somewhere that Young was a stage actress.

[ABED]

You say all those things about how the cheesy jokes show Freeza's insensitivity, I just hear a bad actress spouting lines by terrible writers. Everyone in that series spouts terrible cheesy jokes, there's no differentiation. It's execution. In essence, everything you say could work, but in this case it doesn't.

I think I've articulated enough why I think the dub as a whole (dialogue+voices+visuals+music) is good

They are objectively terrible. You and others basically have to create these fictional scenarios where only DBZ exists, radically change the characters, and any number of other things that turn the show into something very different than DB in order to justify how the dialog and voices and visuals and music are good. There are numerous times where characters say things that aren't in character. The music and the narrator's monster truck voice aren't Dragon Ball. Art has to be a cohesive whole and the music doesn't fit DB in the least. It's a show firmly rooted in eastern culture even with scifi elements. If you have to dismiss what came before to make DBZ's changes work, it's objectively bad in that case because it's not part of a whole. Why would they think it's a good idea to change Freeza's personality from an aristocratic tyrant to weird sexually ambiguous, but female sounding creature that makes weird come-ons and cheesy one liners? How is that better?

Why do you prefer the god awful dialog to the actual dialog and characterizations? You go on about how Freeza's terrible jokes contrast his brutality, but in the original story, he also has a contrast between his brutality and what he says. However, in the dub, damn near every villain says the same sort of lines. The lack of differentiation is awful writing. What differentiates Freeza from Cell and Vegeta in the dub? Is the only difference between Freeza and Vegeta that Vegeta goes on and on about Saiyan pride?

The reason I can't fathom why you and others only claim Young was creepy is because no grown man would find anything like that creepy, not even a teenager.

What is it about Linda's performance that you buy?

But deepish for a female voice and it had some roughness to it. And yeah, the voice filter was nice.

That roughness was forced. Even for a woman, her voice wasn't deep. Any deepness was the result of a voice filter and the deeper the filter, the better. It's the equivalent to covering up crappy coffee and crappy food by making it hotter.

[thaman91]

You say all those things about how the cheesy jokes show Freeza's insensitivity, I just hear a bad actress spouting lines by terrible writers. Everyone in that series spouts terrible cheesy jokes, there's no differentiation. It's execution. In essence, everything you say could work, but in this case it doesn't.

There's definitely differentiation. Maybe not in the cheesy lines themselves but definitely in the characterizations as a whole. Everything I say may not work for you. But that's cool. Not everyone has to agree.

I think I've articulated enough why I think the dub as a whole (dialogue+voices+visuals+music) is good

They are objectively terrible. You and others basically have to create these fictional scenarios where only DBZ exists, radically change the characters, and any number of other things that turn the show into something very different than DB in order to justify how the dialog and voices and visuals and music are good.

I think it's you who is creating the fictional scenario of what I am actually doing. What I am doing is very simple. If you just take the dub as a whole in its own context, then it can be an enjoyable experience. That's literally it. I don't think I'd recommend newcomers to watch it that way of course since, like you said, that's not really what Dragon Ball is. But in its own right, I'd say it's good on the basis of it being enjoyable.

There are numerous times where characters say things that aren't in character. The music and the narrator's monster truck voice aren't Dragon Ball. Art has to be a cohesive whole and the music doesn't fit DB in the least. It's a show firmly rooted in eastern culture even with scifi elements.

It doesn't fit the original Japanese version of Dragon Ball, I agree. But if one just watches the dub on its own, with no knowledge of what Dragon Ball is supposed to be, then it's perfectly enjoyable, albeit full of cheesy moments.

Why do you prefer the god awful dialog to the actual dialog and characterizations?

This is a strawman and is riddled with your own opinionated premises. That it's "god awful dialog" while the other has "actual dialog and characterizations" is your subjective premise. Secondly, I'd say that the Kai dub, on the whole, is the better product.

If you have to dismiss what came before to make DBZ's changes work, it's objectively bad in that case because it's not part of a whole. Why would they think it's a good idea to change Freeza's personality from an aristocratic tyrant to weird sexually ambiguous, but female sounding creature that makes weird come-ons and cheesy one liners? How is that better?

I'm not actually dismissing what came before. Dub DBZ came before dub DB just like the Star Wars originals came before the prequels. And yes I know it's one cohesive story in the original Japanese version. But in terms of the dub product, the DBZ dub came before the DB dub. When they were dubbing DB, they were more accurate to the original and so things don't flow smoothly when going from the DB dub to the DBZ dub just like (IMO) things don't flow well when you go from the Star Wars prequels to Star Wars originals chronologically. Therefore, I don't think it's fair to point to something in the DB dub and say "The Z dub contradicts that characterization and so it's bad".

As for "why would they think it's a good idea to change Freeza's personality...How is that better?", well I don't know. I'm not saying it's necessarily better. It probably isn't. All I'm providing are reasons why one might watch the dub on its own terms and enjoy it, that's all. I'm not saying that FUNi's misplaced dubbing practices were a good idea to begin with though.

You go on about how Freeza's terrible jokes contrast his brutality, but in the original story, he also has a contrast between his brutality and what he says.

So what? Why are you bringing up the original version? Let's try to focus here. I'm talking about the dub as a whole and why I think it's enjoyable/good. Just because it contains something that's also in the original version doesn't invalidate my point.

However, in the dub, damn near every villain says the same sort of lines. The lack of differentiation is awful writing. What differentiates Freeza from Cell and Vegeta in the dub?

They're all distinct characters in the dub. This argument is like me saying "damn near every character in the original version laughs at some point...what differentiates them?" Just because they may all have some cheesy lines once in a while, doesn't make them identical characters. Vegeta is clearly obsessed with surpassing Goku & feeling like he's entitled to greatness because of his royalty and is all about the "warrior's pride", Freeza is a psychopathic villain who is secretly insecure that a Saiyan will rise up & challenge him, while (perfect) Cell has a lot of Saiyan tendencies & wants to test/demonstrate his perfection (he also has a more refined speech than dub Freeza, ironically). Them all having occasional cheesy lines does not mean they don't have differentiation.

completely oblivious to what impact his actions have had on Goku.

Not at all. He's doing that to piss Goku off and rub it in.

I don't know about that. He's also laughing maniacally to himself when he's blowing up planet Vegeta. It's not unreasonable to think that his reaction after killing Krillin is genuine.

Well I did hear menace in the performance rather than just an attempt at such.

Nope, sorry, can't believe you. No way a grown man is actually finds that menacing. No way a teenager finds it menacing. Unless you are so easily scared by an older woman trying to sound like a cartoon villain.

You saying that you don't believe me matters about as much as someone saying they're convinced that the world is flat.

Where's the objective data?

Data isn't the only way to be objective. What data could I possibly find? That doesn't mean it's not objective. Try as you will to convince yourself, it's apparent that the actors were incredibly green. The delivery is all over the place, from wooden to hammy.

Another strawman argument. I have acknowledged over and over and over again that the acting needed improvement. Re-read my posts if you don't believe me. As far as your objectivity claim goes, you say that data isn't the only way to be objective. Well okay, then let's look at your method of backing up your objectivity.....which just involves repeatedly insisting that your view is the objective one.

What is it about Linda's performance that you buy?

I'm not going to repeat myself over and over again. I already told you what I see in it. You happen to not see those things. Oh well.

That roughness was forced. Even for a woman, her voice wasn't deep. Any deepness was the result of a voice filter and the deeper the filter, the better. It's the equivalent to covering up crappy coffee and crappy food by making it hotter.

I don't think it sounded forced. It sounded appropriately menacing. And nice coffee analogy, but I never saw Young's Freeza as "crappy coffee" so I can't say I agree with it.

[90sDBZ]

I don't see what the song lyrics have to do with the actual dialogue.

You were criticizing the Z dub for being cheesy. I pointed out the Japanese version is very cheesy in its own way too. Those songs and lyrics are part of the product and part of the experience people get when they watch it, so they shouldn't be disregarded.

They're just songs. 9 times out of 10 I'm skipping them. They're irrelevant to the actual story.

But that's just you. Plenty of people like to watch stuff all the way through to get the full experience, and a song can go a long way in leaving an impression of a movie or show. The bottom line is that they're in there and can't just be conveniently swept under the rug to suit your argument, particularly when it comes to insert songs that can't be skipped anyway.

You were criticizing the Z dub for being cheesy. I pointed out the Japanese version is very cheesy in its own way too. Those songs and lyrics are part of the product and part of the experience people get when they watch it, so they shouldn't be disregarded.

Honestly, I saw maybe one thing that actually has some real cheese to it out of all the stuff you chose. A better label for some of the songs would be to call them "90's" songs more than anything. And, honestly, I really only think that applies to possibly one of the ending songs.

You seem to be grasping at straws.

If your only counterargument is "nah that ain't cheesy", then there's no point in me saying anymore. There are plenty of 90s songs that don't sound anywhere near as corny as some of the Japanese DB songs.

[ABED]

This is a strawman and is riddled with your own opinionated premises. That it's "god awful dialog" while the other has "actual dialog and characterizations" is your subjective premise. Secondly, I'd say that the Kai dub, on the whole, is the better product.

That's not a subjective premise. The actual dialog was what Toei wrote. Now, no dub will be 100 percent accurate, but it can be very close. As for characterization, the DB characters are very well defined. It's not an opinion that Freeza is an almost gentlemanly space dictator and Goku is a naïve manchild who loves a good fight for its own sake.

I'm providing are reasons why one might watch the dub on its own terms and enjoy it, that's all.

We need to differentiate between good and enjoyable. You are welcome to like anything, but that doesn't make it good. And to show that I'm not talking down to you, I like Power Rangers, as objectively terrible as it is, I still enjoy it. These are two different issues.

"damn near every character in the original version laughs at some point...what differentiates them?"

This is more specific. They all tell the same sort of cheesy jokes. Their senses of humor are similar.

Freeza is a psychopathic villain who is secretly insecure

So is Vegeta.

which just involves repeatedly insisting that your view is the objective one.

And your argument boils down to "I enjoy it, and others might as well" which isn't the issue. It's not whether you can enjoy it. It's whether it's good. Even on its own terms, the dub is objectively terrible because the animation and characterizations are not cohesive. As we see, Goku proves through his actions that it's not about saving people, it's about the love of battle. Freeza's actions aren't that of a weirdly androgynous old lady. If that's what Freeza was, he wouldn't have the mannerisms of a gentleman. The monster truck announcer doesn't fit the DBZ aesthetic. And the one liner jokes usually aren't in character. For instance, "It's time like this that I wonder, 'why didn't i become a shoe salesman?'" is objectively a worse line than the original. In the original he complains that he is going to die before he got married. One goes to the heart of the character, one is an attempt to be funny. Maybe you like the dub line, but the writing isn't as good because it's disconnected from the character. In the dub scene of Vegeta's death, he blames Freeza for making him who he is and makes it sound like Freeza abused the Saiyans when nothing we are shown implies Vegeta or his fellow Saiyans were anything other than willing participants, ergo, it's objectively bad writing.

And nice coffee analogy

Thanks, it's what happens when your family was in the restaurant business.

[Bansho64]

If your only counterargument is "nah that ain't cheesy", then there's no point in me saying anymore. There are plenty of 90s songs that don't sound anywhere near as corny as some of the Japanese DB songs.

That's on you man. You said that those things were cheesy and I responded and said I don't think so while also giving what I think is a better category to put em under. My response was much more than what you said it was.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

If your only counterargument is "nah that ain't cheesy", then there's no point in me saying anymore. There are plenty of 90s songs that don't sound anywhere near as corny as some of the Japanese DB songs.

That's on you man. You said that those things were cheesy and I responded and said I don't think so while also giving what I think is a better category to put em under. My response was much more than what you said it was.

Not to mention that saying "Yours can be cheesy too." doesn't excuse the alternative version, which is cheese incarnate.

[thaman91]

This is a strawman and is riddled with your own opinionated premises. That it's "god awful dialog" while the other has "actual dialog and characterizations" is your subjective premise. Secondly, I'd say that the Kai dub, on the whole, is the better product.

That's not a subjective premise. The actual dialog was what Toei wrote. Now, no dub will be 100 percent accurate, but it can be very close. As for characterization, the DB characters are very well defined. It's not an opinion that Freeza is an almost gentlemanly space dictator and Goku is a naïve manchild who loves a good fight for its own sake.

I'm saying your premise of "god awful dialogue" is subjective. I agree that Freeza and Goku are what you describe them as. But I disagree that inaccuracy makes the product bad as a whole.

I'm providing are reasons why one might watch the dub on its own terms and enjoy it, that's all.

We need to differentiate between good and enjoyable. You are welcome to like anything, but that doesn't make it good. And to show that I'm not talking down to you, I like Power Rangers, as objectively terrible as it is, I still enjoy it. These are two different issues.

Well I wasn't just talking about myself enjoying it. My assertion is that the reasons I've mentioned can be applied in a general sense such that a casual viewer watching the original dub for the first time without any outside knowledge of anything will have an enjoyable experience. Of course, I don't have any proof of that which is why I'm not going to say that I'm objectively correct. But I tried to outline reasons why I personally enjoy it so that one who has a negative opinion of the dub (such as yourself) might understand why others may enjoy it. As for the distinction between "good" and "enjoyable", I guess what I'm going for is "enjoyable in general" and so I think that "good" is an appropriate term in that regard.

"damn near every character in the original version laughs at some point...what differentiates them?"

This is more specific. They all tell the same sort of cheesy jokes. Their senses of humor are similar.

I'm not even sure if this is true. And even if it is, their cheesy lines are such a minor part of their characters that it's not enough to say that they have indistinguishable personalities. I've watched the entirety of dubbed Kai (that's been released so far) and the removal of said cheesy lines has not really changed my perception of most of the characters (except Freeza, of course). Especially when I got to the Android/Cell & Buu arcs, I noticed only minor differences.

Freeza is a psychopathic villain who is secretly insecure

So is Vegeta.

The difference is that Freeza feels the paranoia of having to wipe out any and all threats that may rise up to challenge him. Freeza also doesn't work hard to push past his limits (at least until RoF). Vegeta, on the other hand, feels entitled to greatness but works his ass off to get there. He's insecure about not being the best but, unlike Freeza, he's the guy who will let his opponent reach his full potential not because of cockiness alone, but also because of the thrill of combat. Vegeta also has a lot of pride which makes him not want to accept help from people, especially during a fight, but in other matters as well. The dub version has all of that.

which just involves repeatedly insisting that your view is the objective one.

And your argument boils down to "I enjoy it, and others might as well" which isn't the issue. It's not whether you can enjoy it. It's whether it's good. Even on its own terms, the dub is objectively terrible because the animation and characterizations are not cohesive. As we see, Goku proves through his actions that it's not about saving people, it's about the love of battle. Freeza's actions aren't that of a weirdly androgynous old lady. If that's what Freeza was, he wouldn't have the mannerisms of a gentleman. The monster truck announcer doesn't fit the DBZ aesthetic. And the one liner jokes usually aren't in character. For instance, "It's time like this that I wonder, 'why didn't i become a shoe salesman?'" is objectively a worse line than the original. In the original he complains that he is going to die before he got married. One goes to the heart of the character, one is an attempt to be funny. Maybe you like the dub line, but the writing isn't as good because it's disconnected from the character.

The problem is that my argument doesn't start off that way. It just boils down to that when you end up not agreeing with any of the reasons I have. I'll list a few reasons why I think the dub as a whole is good:
1.) compelling characters that have real growth and progression. And when I say this, I'm well aware that a lot of what's compelling about the characters was probably there in the original Japanese version as well. But since I'm judging the dub product as a whole, it's a valid point.
2.) music that is married to the visuals and appropriately adjusts according to whatever tonal shifts may be occurring in any given scene.
3.) music that has unique themes for most characters. These themes develop further as the show progresses and similar motifs are cleverly used during appropriate character moments.
4.) music that has such variety that it can fit just about any kind of tone that the show is going for. There are even themes for specific types of plot moments that lend a feeling of musical cohesiveness (for the Faulconer-scored portion anyway).
5.) Freeza is good because he he sounds creepy due to the slightly deeper & rough sounding female voice that can dynamically shift from soft to aggressive (this potential for variance creates tension). And his callous nature is enhanced when he makes cheesy jokes even in the midst of brutally murdering someone.

So yeah, I listed some reasons. But you then will say something like "I don't hear creepy, I hear someone trying to sound creepy" as if that automatically settles the matter. Or you'll say something like "the music is cheaply produced, unfitting to the show, and its awfulness is punctuated by the fact that it doesn't even allow a quiet moment", which shows that our ideas of what constitutes "awful" greatly differ (that was just a hypothetical...my real take on the music is that it's good for the reasons I listed but that it would have been more effective had it allowed for more silence and did less mickey-mousing). I don't think either side's reasons are wrong per say. But just because I say that the music's constant marriage to whatever is happening onscreen is a good thing, doesn't objectively make it so. And just because you say that the non-stop music not allowing for silent moments is objectively bad, doesn't make it so. And any justifications either of us have for our respective reasons eventually just boils down to either "that makes it enjoyable because it just does" or "that makes it objectively bad because I say so". You could eventually boil any reason for anything that's not concrete (like the concept of "good") down to one of those.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think this talk is just going to go forever, why not just agree to disagree, but then again its a free world.

[ABED]

The audience still enjoys DB, but given how many different countries have DB and it's been popular everywhere regardless of the degree of change, and it has been changed to varying degrees from country to country, it's safe to say that it's DB that's popular, not the changes that make it popular. The dub in the US has a lot of changes, but much of the original characters and story still bleed through. That's what the audience connects with. I get why people enjoy DB. Fighting is universal and it's a colorful and quirky show. Do I understand the appeal of the DBZ dub? Honestly no. I don't know why anyone would prefer that product overall to something closer to Toriyama's original vision.

I'm saying your premise of "god awful dialogue" is subjective.

It's not subjective. There are rules to good dialog. It has to come from character, it should push forward story, straight exposition should be limited, and it should usually have some conflict. Hopefully the dialog will accomplish more than one of these goals at any given time. The dub is full of non-sequiters and jokes and lines that are out of character. There's a disconnect. That's objectively bad writing. Now, a number of these criteria could be absent or stronger than the other in a given work, but the criteria are objective. If the purpose of dialog is to convey story and character, then it would logically follow that objective criteria to obtaining that goal.

Especially when I got to the Android/Cell & Buu arcs

I think that's because the dub improved as it went along. The Buu arc is still full of inaccuracies, but it's scripts and performances are much better. If season 3 was an F, the Buu arc was around a C/C-.

With the music, yes, it doesn't shut up, but it also doesn't quite get the moments it's scoring. Goku's first SSJ transformation is a moment of tension and almost horror. Assuming the audience knew nothing about it going in, it's all supposed to convey "What happened to Goku? What does this mean? He just yelled at his son, we've never seen that from him, is he the same guy?" All the dub conveys is "This is AWESOME!" Bulma's theme just conveys airhead. She has her ditzy moments, but she's quite intelligent. Sure, there's variety, but much of it is unmemorable. The score also doesn't convey the influences of the story. And you bring up the tone of the show and how the music can fit it due to its diversity. The problem is that I don't think the writers or the composer understood the show and its unique tone.

You could eventually boil any reason for anything that's not concrete (like the concept of "good") down to one of those.

There are things that are objectively good given context.

Freeza is good because he he sounds creepy due to the slightly deeper & rough sounding female voice that can dynamically shift from soft to aggressive (this potential for variance creates tension). And his callous nature is enhanced when he makes cheesy jokes even in the midst of brutally murdering someone.

By this reasoning, anyone lowering the register of their voice while going from soft to aggressive and recites cheesy dialog as their character murders another is a good performance. That's easy to do. Problem is, it's not easy to do well. It's not the idea, it's the execution that matters.

why not just agree to disagree,

I don't agree to that (Simpsons reference)

[thaman91]

The audience still enjoys DB, but given how many different countries have DB and it's been popular everywhere regardless of the degree of change, and it has been changed to varying degrees from country to country, it's safe to say that it's DB that's popular, not the changes that make it popular. The dub in the US has a lot of changes, but much of the original characters and story still bleed through. That's what the audience connects with. I get why people enjoy DB. Fighting is universal and it's a colorful and quirky show. Do I understand the appeal of the DBZ dub? Honestly no. I don't know why anyone would prefer that product overall to something closer to Toriyama's original vision.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not arguing that it's necessarily the changes that made the DBZ dub popular. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the DBZ dub product as a whole (including both the changes and the retained elements) make for a good viewing experience. I'm not comparing anything. And I'm certainly not advocating for the changes being the reason for the DBZ dub's success.

I'm saying your premise of "god awful dialogue" is subjective.

It's not subjective. There are rules to good dialog. It has to come from character, it should push forward story, straight exposition should be limited, and it should usually have some conflict. Hopefully the dialog will accomplish more than one of these goals at any given time. The dub is full of non-sequiters and jokes and lines that are out of character. There's a disconnect. That's objectively bad writing.

Ah, we finally have some rules for "good dialogue". And sure you can find some lines that aren't great. But on the whole, most of the dialogue does fit the characters, push forward the story, limits exposition, and has some conflict. So even if there are a few lines that may deviate from this most of them follow this just fine. I'd also add that the dialogue should sound natural.

The dub version has all of that.

Not because it's a good dub but because as much as the dub likes to deviate, there's still the visuals they have to take into account.

Well regardless of the reasoning for why it has those things....it still has those things. And those make for a good viewing experience.

With the music, yes, it doesn't shut up, but it also doesn't quite get the moments it's scoring. Goku's first SSJ transformation is a moment of tension and almost horror. Assuming the audience knew nothing about it going in, it's all supposed to convey "What happened to Goku? What does this mean? He just yelled at his son, we've never seen that from him, is he the same guy?" All the dub conveys is "This is AWESOME!" Bulma's theme just conveys airhead. She has her ditzy moments, but she's quite intelligent. Sure, there's variety, but much of it is unmemorable. The score also doesn't convey the influences of the story.

Music is capable of drastically changing the tone of different scenes. For the SSJ transformation, the music takes on a more positive tone instead of uncertain. It tells the audience that something is stirring deep within Goku. Something powerful (on a character level) is happening to our protagonist; it conveys an almost inspirational feeling. This tone of inspiration is appropriate to signal the potential turning of the tide. It works well after the brutal murder of Krillin. I understand that this is inaccurate to the Japanese version, but that doesn't make this version bad.

The Bulma theme works for the Bulma dialogue. Yeah, that's a pretty circular argument from me. However, the Bulma dialogue, while it has its ditzy moments, doesn't completely paint her as an idiot. It paints her more as ditzy whilst intelligent at the same time. It's like those smart people in school who, despite being highly intelligent, are capable of saying & doing shallow or awkward things. Like her "Let's all sing a song!" while they're all waiting for Freeza is not showing her stupidity, it's just showing that she's trying to lighten the mood but isn't socially aware enough to know that this isn't the right time or person to be saying that to. And no, I'm not "inventing fictional scenarios"; I'm just saying that the default interpretation of how Bulma is presented in the dub is not as an idiot. People are certainly capable of watching it and not thinking that. And the Bulma theme accompanies those shallow/awkward moments that she has. Her intelligent moments are scored by other music. Also, I'd say that the score has both variety and memorability.

You could eventually boil any reason for anything that's not concrete (like the concept of "good") down to one of those.

There are things that are objectively good given context.

But you would, at the very least, have to specifically define the criteria that needs to be present in order something to be considered "good". But even if you manage to do that, whether or not you can prove that those criteria are absent or present in a given work is a whole other challenge. You could argue for "objectively wrong" or "objectively inaccurate" in this case.

Freeza is good because he he sounds creepy due to the slightly deeper & rough sounding female voice that can dynamically shift from soft to aggressive (this potential for variance creates tension). And his callous nature is enhanced when he makes cheesy jokes even in the midst of brutally murdering someone.

By this reasoning, anyone lowering the register of their voice while going from soft to aggressive and recites cheesy dialog as their character murders another is a good performance. That's easy to do. Problem is, it's not easy to do well. It's not the idea, it's the execution that matters.

I'm saying dub Freeza is good because of his creepy voice and callous nature. As I've said, I think the performance itself needed work. And by "soft" I don't just mean in pitch. I mean that it's gentle. The soft and gentle voice being able to shift into aggressive & monstrous makes for a creepy experience. The fact that you know that the aggression & monstrous quality is there yet not being presently utilized makes the soft & gentle voice even creepier.

[8000 Saiyan]

The audience still enjoys DB, but given how many different countries have DB and it's been popular everywhere regardless of the degree of change, and it has been changed to varying degrees from country to country, it's safe to say that it's DB that's popular, not the changes that make it popular. The dub in the US has a lot of changes, but much of the original characters and story still bleed through. That's what the audience connects with. I get why people enjoy DB. Fighting is universal and it's a colorful and quirky show. Do I understand the appeal of the DBZ dub? Honestly no. I don't know why anyone would prefer that product overall to something closer to Toriyama's original vision.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not arguing that it's necessarily the changes that made the DBZ dub popular. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that the DBZ dub product as a whole (including both the changes and the retained elements) make for a good viewing experience. I'm not comparing anything. And I'm certainly not advocating for the changes being the reason for the DBZ dub's success.

I'm saying your premise of "god awful dialogue" is subjective.

It's not subjective. There are rules to good dialog. It has to come from character, it should push forward story, straight exposition should be limited, and it should usually have some conflict. Hopefully the dialog will accomplish more than one of these goals at any given time. The dub is full of non-sequiters and jokes and lines that are out of character. There's a disconnect. That's objectively bad writing.

Ah, we finally have some rules for "good dialogue". And sure you can find some lines that aren't great. But on the whole, most of the dialogue does fit the characters, push forward the story, limits exposition, and has some conflict. So even if there are a few lines that may deviate from this most of them follow this just fine. I'd also add that the dialogue should sound natural.

The dub version has all of that.

Not because it's a good dub but because as much as the dub likes to deviate, there's still the visuals they have to take into account.

Well regardless of the reasoning for why it has those things....it still has those things. And those make for a good viewing experience.

With the music, yes, it doesn't shut up, but it also doesn't quite get the moments it's scoring. Goku's first SSJ transformation is a moment of tension and almost horror. Assuming the audience knew nothing about it going in, it's all supposed to convey "What happened to Goku? What does this mean? He just yelled at his son, we've never seen that from him, is he the same guy?" All the dub conveys is "This is AWESOME!" Bulma's theme just conveys airhead. She has her ditzy moments, but she's quite intelligent. Sure, there's variety, but much of it is unmemorable. The score also doesn't convey the influences of the story.

Music is capable of drastically changing the tone of different scenes. For the SSJ transformation, the music takes on a more positive tone instead of uncertain. It tells the audience that something is stirring deep within Goku. Something powerful (on a character level) is happening to our protagonist; it conveys an almost inspirational feeling. This tone of inspiration is appropriate to signal the potential turning of the tide. It works well after the brutal murder of Krillin. I understand that this is inaccurate to the Japanese version, but that doesn't make this version bad.

The Bulma theme works for the Bulma dialogue. Yeah, that's a pretty circular argument from me. However, the Bulma dialogue, while it has its ditzy moments, doesn't completely paint her as an idiot. It paints her more as ditzy whilst intelligent at the same time. It's like those smart people in school who, despite being highly intelligent, are capable of saying & doing shallow or awkward things. Like her "Let's all sing a song!" while they're all waiting for Freeza is not showing her stupidity, it's just showing that she's trying to lighten the mood but isn't socially aware enough to know that this isn't the right time or person to be saying that to. And no, I'm not "inventing fictional scenarios"; I'm just saying that the default interpretation of how Bulma is presented in the dub is not as an idiot. People are certainly capable of watching it and not thinking that. And the Bulma theme accompanies those shallow/awkward moments that she has. Her intelligent moments are scored by other music. Also, I'd say that the score has both variety and memorability.

You could eventually boil any reason for anything that's not concrete (like the concept of "good") down to one of those.

There are things that are objectively good given context.

But you would, at the very least, have to specifically define the criteria that needs to be present in order something to be considered "good". But even if you manage to do that, whether or not you can prove that those criteria are absent or present in a given work is a whole other challenge. You could argue for "objectively wrong" or "objectively inaccurate" in this case.

Freeza is good because he he sounds creepy due to the slightly deeper & rough sounding female voice that can dynamically shift from soft to aggressive (this potential for variance creates tension). And his callous nature is enhanced when he makes cheesy jokes even in the midst of brutally murdering someone.

By this reasoning, anyone lowering the register of their voice while going from soft to aggressive and recites cheesy dialog as their character murders another is a good performance. That's easy to do. Problem is, it's not easy to do well. It's not the idea, it's the execution that matters.

I'm saying dub Freeza is good because of his creepy voice and callous nature. As I've said, I think the performance itself needed work. And by "soft" I don't just mean in pitch. I mean that it's gentle. The soft and gentle voice being able to shift into aggressive & monstrous makes for a creepy experience. The fact that you know that the aggression & monstrous quality is there yet not being presently utilized makes the soft & gentle voice even creepier.

I find nothing creepy or gentle about Young's voice for Frieza.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Copying this from another thread.

While I believe the Kai dub is better translated but the voice actors sound bored at times,(Except Sabat) maybe since with the original series, redubbing the series for the season sets, and video games, it seems like they just seem bored at times with the dialouge. While the dub of the original isn't the greatest (It got better around the androids for me), it seems like they are more into it since at the time it was new. That's just me though.

[Metalwario64]

Copying this from another thread.

While I believe the Kai dub is better translated but the voice actors sound bored at times,(Except Sabat) maybe since with the original series, redubbing the series for the season sets, and video games, it seems like they just seem bored at times with the dialouge. While the dub of the original isn't the greatest (It got better around the androids for me), it seems like they are more into it since at the time it was new. That's just me though.

The actors have expressed excitement for being able to do a new, accurate dub, and it really shows through with their Kai performances.

This is a really good example. In the Z dub, Schemmel sounds really tired compared to his performance in Kai.

I don't get how people can think that the Kai performances sound "tired" and "flat". The only explanation I can get is that the original dub performances were so exaggerated that the natural line deliveries in Kai make people feel like they're not as "dynamic", when they're actually more natural.

Your description is pretty fitting for the Japanese Kai though, since they were just redoing what they have done for many years, line for line. I still think Japanese Kai's okay though.

[8000 Saiyan]

Copying this from another thread.

While I believe the Kai dub is better translated but the voice actors sound bored at times,(Except Sabat) maybe since with the original series, redubbing the series for the season sets, and video games, it seems like they just seem bored at times with the dialouge. While the dub of the original isn't the greatest (It got better around the androids for me), it seems like they are more into it since at the time it was new. That's just me though.

The voice actors sound bored in Kai? I see more effort in Kai's dub than Z's. Thank God we finally got a great dub with the Funimation for the first time with Kai.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Now don't get me wrong, I said at times. I think Sean Schemmel does a great job from the Cell Games of the original dub onwards to today compared how he originally was in season 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9bPRFe5GRA This here I believe is a good example why the Kai Dub is better then the original, it feels more natural.

Although I guess saying they are bored is wrong way to say it. Maybe more playful is a better way to say how they approched the original dub.

I do think we can all agree though that Kai dub's of Freeza is way better handled then the original.