Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

I'm afraid of what we'll see tonight.

What 17 being blue level?
Who cares super giving characters massive ass boosts in comparison to before.

[Ki Breaker]

I'm afraid of what we'll see tonight.

What 17 being blue level?
Who cares super giving characters massive ass boosts in comparison to before.

It kind of will be a problem if they don't give us a reason for his boost..
There is only so much breaking inuniverse laws one can take before it's all a joke

[Speedster]

Argument: Beerus slapped Bulma…Cell kicked Kuririn …. Cell knocked Mr Satan and they didn't die…

Debunking …
1. Both Perfect Cell and Beerus have only one form. They didn't transform into some super-duper ultimate form and then held back to a quadrillionth of their power to slap their opponents.
2. When Beerus slapped Bulma, it was an effortless slap and resulted to Bulma going out of the for the count immediately. Same goes for Cell versus Kuririn and Mr Satan. They attacked him with everything they’ve got and Cell was completely unfazed. Then they were knocked cold by Cell effortlessly without them showing any kind of resistance, resilience or ability to fight back. And let's not forget that Mr Satan is, for all intents and purposes, a gag character...
3. Cell is explicitly stated to be holding back both against Kuririn and Mr Satan. As for Beerus it was stated multiple times that he was holding back even against SSJ3 Goku. He also said in episode 5 that someone needs to be proven worthy enough for him to show them a glimpse of his power. Beerus also said in episode 8 that he used a fraction of his power against mutated SSJ2 Vegeta. Whis again confirmed in episode 14 that Beerus didn't use his full power against SSG Goku either.
4. Just let me give you the analogy I made before slightly modified. Imagine you have a car and you are going to a race against a bike. You have full control of the speed of the car from zero all the way to its full speed. To make things challenging you are pressing the pedal as much as needed to beat the bike. Goku in his base form is like a car. Kuririn is the bike. Goku transforming into SSJ and then to SSJB is like transforming into a jet plane and then to a superluminal spaceship. All that to then hold back to bike speed levels. Why? The show needs to acknowledge the reason for him doing so. As it stands it is lame writing at best.
5. The show not only did it not explicitly acknowledge that Goku was massively holding back but the narrative was instead all about Kuririn improving … from training part-time at his house with regular gym equipment… And all that after the series has contantly being going out of its way to portray Kuririn as a weakling, as someone who retired from martial arts, etc. And this guy all of a sudden can give Goku who has long been heaps and bounds above Kuririn trouble. I bet they wanted to make their fight reminiscent of their fight in the 22nd TB in terms of power difference … they referenced their fight back then too. A very lame Toei idea.
6. Sure the original manga is guilty of bullshit power ups too, especially during the Saiyan arc. But now we are not talking about jumping a mere 4-5 power tiers. Now we are talking about jumping 30+ freaking tiers without even the pretence of an explanation. Side characters like #17 training in the woods and getting even close to the realm of SSG Goku’s power is lame in any conceivable way. Why? Because it undermines the integrity of all the previous arcs. The huge gaps of power displayed in those arcs and the special ways the protagonists had to find in order to surpass their limits and close the gaps were fundamental elements of the plot of these arcs. It also makes you wonder if #17 could became that strong by regular training why didn't he take care of Buu? Or what changed in his “woods training” over the last 3-4 years that was so drastically different from the 7 years between the Cell arc and the Buu arc?

[Lord Beerus]

Goku turned into SSJ to spar with Android 17 and they fought evenly.

[Zamasu55]

[ZombieVito]

Goku turned into SSJ to spar with Android 17 and they fought evenly.

This not only proves the two base theory without a shadow of a doubt now but it also gives credibility to the normal base not being way stronger than their Boo arc ones as DBZGTKOSH said.

[Noah]

Side characters like #17 training in the woods and getting even close to the realm of SSG Goku’s power is lame in any conceivable way. Why? Because it undermines the integrity of all the previous arcs. The huge gaps of power displayed in those arcs and the special ways the protagonists had to find in order to surpass their limits and close the gaps were fundamental elements of the plot of these arcs. It also makes you wonder if #17 could became that strong by regular training why didn't he take care of Buu? Or what changed in his “woods training” over the last 3-4 years that was so drastically different from the 7 years between the Cell arc and the Buu arc?

You couldn't have said that any better, well done Speedster

Goku turned into SSJ to spar with Android 17 and they fought evenly.

Noooooooooo! I couldn't avoid being spoiled this time

[Lord Beerus]

Goku fought 17 as a SSJB but they were both holding back.

[pacz360]

Goku turned into SSJ to spar with Android 17 and they fought evenly.

This not only proves the two base theory without a shadow of a doubt now but it also gives credibility to the normal base not being way stronger than their Boo arc ones as DBZGTKOSH said.

No it doesn't so quit it.

[pacz360]

Goku fought 17 as a SSJB but they were both holding back.

God tier 17 baby

[LowRyder2005]

Just watched the episode. I don't think there's a real way to pinpoint where they both stood in power during their fight since we got the standard "different forms = same results" (i.e. #17 sparred with both Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue Goku with no visible difference in effort for both fighters). I'd tentatively conclude that #17 is probably stronger than Base Goku (which, if anything, reinforces the idea that bases are not intended to be that strong at the very least right now for the umpteenth time), though.

By the way, #17 is stated to be "a lot stronger", but I find it hard to believe that he could surpass - say - Perfect Cell's power. I'd say that if we wanted to apply some modicum of narrative integrity he's probably around the mastered Super Saiyans seen at the Cell Game.

I'm obviously against the "god tier #17" explanation. Usual questions: if #17 became this strong, when did he?
Was he already far stronger at the time of the Buu conflict when he supposedly had many years of added training under his belt? If so, why didn't he act or why wasn't he called to arms? For reference, Dende knew where he was and was aware of his strength, should we believe he completely ignored #17 up until know?
Or did he became so strong in-between BOG and the current arc? What kind of training regime did he have to reach this realm of power in barely a year? Was he a prodigy like Freeza (or better than Freeza), then? Again, I'd stress that it's technically easier to acknowledge an (unstated) vastly weaker Gotenks even if we wanted to discount the retcon/ two-base explanation.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku fought 17 as a SSJB but they were both holding back.

God tier 17 baby

The conversation after the fight basically goes like this:

17: "I would have lost. You weren't being serious."
Goku: "Well, who knows? You weren't being serious either."

Credit to Cipher.

[Bullza]

So it mentioned that #17 had trained and got much stronger first of all.

He definitely seemed to have the upper hand over Goku as a Super Saiyan which is probably why he transformed further. That should at least put him well above Fat Buu.

He fought Super Saiyan Blue Goku evenly but it was said Goku wasn't really going all out but then they said the same thing #17 as well.

So there's not really a good way of saying where #17 stands without knowing how much he or Goku was holding back by. He could be nowhere remotely close to Blue level just like Krillin isn't despite him pushing the blast back a little. He's above Super Saiyan level at least though.

[pacz360]

Goku fought 17 as a SSJB but they were both holding back.

God tier 17 baby

The conversation after the fight basically goes like this:

17: "I would have lost. You weren't being serious."
Goku: "Well, who knows? You weren't being serious either."

Credit to Cipher.

Interesting still god tier to degree when even goku admits he wasn't going all out at least 17 is stronger than ssj god

[Lord Beerus]

God tier 17 baby

The conversation after the fight basically goes like this:

17: "I would have lost. You weren't being serious."
Goku: "Well, who knows? You weren't being serious either."

Credit to Cipher.

Interesting still god tier to degree when even goku admits he wasn't going all out at least 17 is stronger than ssj god

There's not enough to imply that because both of them weren't really going all out. What we know at the very least is that Android 17 is waaaaaaayyyy stronger SSJ Goku. Everything after that is pretty guesswork because they both suppress their strength and we don't know by how much they do it.

[LowRyder2005]

He definitely seemed to have the upper hand over Goku as a Super Saiyan which is probably why he transformed further. That should at least put him well above Fat Buu.

I don't think Buu vs. Goku and #17 vs. Goku told us anything concrete about the true power of every person involved other. At best, they let us infer some vague guidelines; those guidelines being that #17, Super Saiyan Gohan and Mr. Buu in both forms are most likely above an untrasformed Goku.

What we know at the very least is that Android 17 is waaaaaaayyyy stronger SSJ Goku.

Why would you think so, though? Because he sparred with SSB Goku afterwards? I mean, Super Saiyan Goku was anything but outmatched there and if we had to apply the same ratio to everything we've been shown since these recruitment episodes started, then Krillin should be way above SS3 Goku from the beginning of BOG.

[BlueBasilisk]

There's not enough to imply that because both of them weren't really going all out. What we know at the very least is that Android 17 is waaaaaaayyyy stronger SSJ Goku. Everything after that is pretty guesswork because they both suppress their strength and we don't know by how much they do it.

So 17 has surpassed RoF Final Form Frieza? The pecking order has been re-established

[pacz360]

The conversation after the fight basically goes like this:

Credit to Cipher.

Interesting still god tier to degree when even goku admits he wasn't going all out at least 17 is stronger than ssj god

There's not enough to imply that because both of them weren't really going all out. What we know at the very least is that Android 17 is waaaaaaayyyy stronger SSJ Goku. Everything after that is pretty guesswork because they both suppress their strength and we don't know by how much they do it.

Well thats true still 17 should be at least stronger ssj god given goku absorbed the god power in his ssj state back in bog.
Base stronger than ssj3 gotenks
Ssj=ssjgod stated by beerus.

[Lord Beerus]

Interesting still god tier to degree when even goku admits he wasn't going all out at least 17 is stronger than ssj god

There's not enough to imply that because both of them weren't really going all out. What we know at the very least is that Android 17 is waaaaaaayyyy stronger SSJ Goku. Everything after that is pretty guesswork because they both suppress their strength and we don't know by how much they do it.

Well thats true still 17 should be at least stronger ssj god given goku absorbed the god power in his ssj state back in bog.
Base stronger than ssj3 gotenks
Ssj=ssjgod stated by beerus.

SSJ = SSJG stopped being thing once the fight with Beerus in the BOG arc was over and Goku went to train with Whis.

[The gr]

#17 should be around golden frieza or ssb rof tier