Yamcha and Krillin's training for the Androids

[Krillin1994]

We all know that Piccolo made insane gains in the 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the androids, going from around 1 million to around SS level so 150 million

Goku extended the offer to Yamcha and Krillin, but they both turned it down, yamcha noting he wouldn't be able to keep up.

Do we think though if they applied themselves here that they could have potentially made great gains? This could've made the androids saga a bit more interesting. It'd be pretty cool to see Yamcha put up more of a fight before being drained. Plus 19 did briefly assume he was Goku, if yamcha had more strength then the android taking his energy would be more interesting.

[nickzambuto]

They could have made great strides, but it would be at the cost of Goku and Piccolo's gains. We know for a fact that Piccolo made astronomical gains going one-on-one with a Super Saiyan for three years, and Goku's gains are a bit more vague since we don't know exactly how strong 19 and 20 are compared to Freeza, but Piccolo implies that Goku became much stronger as well.

If their attention was split to Kuririn and Yamcha, meaning they would very rarely exert full effort, they wouldn't improve as much. This means Vegeta would wind up significantly stronger than Goku rather than possibly slightly, and Piccolo vs 20 might be a more even fight, if not 20 maybe being stronger.

It's impossible to say how much stronger Kuririn and Yamcha would have become since they don't have any benchmarks at all after Freeza. I'd like to put them anywhere in between Freeza's first form and his initial final.

Piccolo would be weaker than 17 meaning he might die before Cell shows up, and if Goku is weaker than normal, even if he does the same training in the ROSAT, he'll end up weaker there as well. And by extension, so will Gohan. Meaning I don't know if Gohan will be able to defeat Super Perfect Cell. All in all, Kuririn and Yamcha made a very humble and wise decision not to slow their two friends down.

[Krillin1994]

What about the fact that once Krillin and Yamcha start to get some gains, they could spar with Gohan leaving Goku and Piccolo to do sparring together?

[nickzambuto]

What about the fact that once Krillin and Yamcha start to get some gains, they could spar with Gohan leaving Goku and Piccolo to do sparring together?

That's a great idea. That might actually result in everybody making greater improvements than normal, as Goku and Piccolo can constantly battle hard and won't be slowed down by Gohan, and meanwhile, Kuririn is almost as good of a trainer as Goku so Gohan won't decline in the slightest.

[TobyS]

I never bought that training with others was always better like everyone assumes, there are numerous times when people train alone, everyone trained at Kamis then went their separate ways for 6 months, same with the androids, even if we assume gaps are a problem, why didn't the humans train with each other? Say what you want about "pride" but given that they have trained together in the past AND it was LIFE OR DEATH FATE OF THE WORLD stakes I don't buy they wouldn't train in groups if it would make a significant difference.

Martial artists in real life and dragonball don't always train at full strength, and certainly don't need to. We know this must be true because even the humans are casual planet busters by this point in the series and the world wasn't wrecked by everyone's training/spars by the time the androids arrived. There's no reason Goku couldn't get a good workout by lowering him to their level and fighting till tired, he did it with Piccolo who was still significantly weaker than Goku.

Yamcha and Kuririn were being modest and or just assuming Goku's skill and strength would just make it hard/uncomfortable/inefficient for them.

Except maybe Vegeta being a masochistic unenlightened thug, we can assume whenever the fighters trained, they did the best most appropriate training on offer to them.

(I don't even buy ROSAT and Gravity are that great, I think they just allow you to get stronger in a short space of time for a incoming threat, otherwise Vegeta who only trains under like 300g would easily surpass Goku/Gohan with their mountain training, by an order of magnitude, at several points in the saga, I think mastering a new training method boosts you ahead but then offers diminishing returns.)

[TheMikado]

We all know that Piccolo made insane gains in the 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the androids, going from around 1 million to around SS level so 150 million

How do we know this?

My estimates. 1.2 million Frieza 2nd form holding back.
1.5 million Piccolo weighted clothes.
2.5 million Piccolo unweighted.

Android 19/20 20 million.

Nothing says or indicates that they were stronger than Final Form 100% frieza. Merely stronger than base saiyans but weaker than super saiyans.
Of course I have no idea what it is, but it would be reasonable for Piccolo to get 10 times stronger in 3 years especially after fusing.

[Krillin1994]

We all know that Piccolo made insane gains in the 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the androids, going from around 1 million to around SS level so 150 million

How do we know this?

My estimates. 1.2 million Frieza 2nd form holding back.
1.5 million Piccolo weighted clothes.
2.5 million Piccolo unweighted.

Android 19/20 20 million.

Nothing says or indicates that they were stronger than Final Form 100% frieza. Merely stronger than base saiyans but weaker than super saiyans.
Of course I have no idea what it is, but it would be reasonable for Piccolo to get 10 times stronger in 3 years especially after fusing.

You think Goku with a Kaioken x 7 during the frieza fight is stronger than the androids?

[TheMikado]

We all know that Piccolo made insane gains in the 3 years of training with Goku and Gohan for the androids, going from around 1 million to around SS level so 150 million

How do we know this?

My estimates. 1.2 million Frieza 2nd form holding back.
1.5 million Piccolo weighted clothes.
2.5 million Piccolo unweighted.

Android 19/20 20 million.

Nothing says or indicates that they were stronger than Final Form 100% frieza. Merely stronger than base saiyans but weaker than super saiyans.
Of course I have no idea what it is, but it would be reasonable for Piccolo to get 10 times stronger in 3 years especially after fusing.

You think Goku with a Kaioken x 7 during the frieza fight is stronger than the androids?

Why not? What suggests they're stronger?

[Krillin1994]

How do we know this?

My estimates. 1.2 million Frieza 2nd form holding back.
1.5 million Piccolo weighted clothes.
2.5 million Piccolo unweighted.

Android 19/20 20 million.

Nothing says or indicates that they were stronger than Final Form 100% frieza. Merely stronger than base saiyans but weaker than super saiyans.
Of course I have no idea what it is, but it would be reasonable for Piccolo to get 10 times stronger in 3 years especially after fusing.

You think Goku with a Kaioken x 7 during the frieza fight is stronger than the androids?

Why not? What suggests they're stronger?

A drained Vegeta couldn't take 20. he was stronger than Goku at this point or at the very least equal, Goku on Namek was 150 mil, he must've made gains since then 4 years after.

Or do you think that Vegeta was only at 14% strength after fighting 19?

[Darkprince410]

You think Goku with a Kaioken x 7 during the frieza fight is stronger than the androids?

Why not? What suggests they're stronger?

A drained Vegeta couldn't take 20. he was stronger than Goku at this point or at the very least equal, Goku on Namek was 150 mil, he must've made gains since then 4 years after.

Or do you think that Vegeta was only at 14% strength after fighting 19?

Just because Vegeta opted to try and bluff Gero to leaving doesn't mean he actually couldn't have taken him on. Vegeta likely decided it'd be foolish to go up against Gero while weakened given that he doesn't know exactly how much stronger Gero is compared to #19. Even if you felt you could take someone on while you were in a weakened state, would you want to risk it or rather wait and let yourself get to full first so you could fight him fresh?

[TheMikado]

Why not? What suggests they're stronger?

A drained Vegeta couldn't take 20. he was stronger than Goku at this point or at the very least equal, Goku on Namek was 150 mil, he must've made gains since then 4 years after.

Or do you think that Vegeta was only at 14% strength after fighting 19?

Just because Vegeta opted to try and bluff Gero to leaving doesn't mean he actually couldn't have taken him on. Vegeta likely decided it'd be foolish to go up against Gero while weakened given that he doesn't know exactly how much stronger Gero is compared to #19. Even if you felt you could take someone on while you were in a weakened state, would you want to risk it or rather wait and let yourself get to full first so you could fight him fresh?

Yeah I'm pretty sure Vegeta couldn't even go SSJ after he was drained. He was in base the whole time he was bluffing to 20.

[Darkprince410]

A drained Vegeta couldn't take 20. he was stronger than Goku at this point or at the very least equal, Goku on Namek was 150 mil, he must've made gains since then 4 years after.

Or do you think that Vegeta was only at 14% strength after fighting 19?

Just because Vegeta opted to try and bluff Gero to leaving doesn't mean he actually couldn't have taken him on. Vegeta likely decided it'd be foolish to go up against Gero while weakened given that he doesn't know exactly how much stronger Gero is compared to #19. Even if you felt you could take someone on while you were in a weakened state, would you want to risk it or rather wait and let yourself get to full first so you could fight him fresh?

Yeah I'm pretty sure Vegeta couldn't even go SSJ after he was drained. He was in base the whole time he was bluffing to 20.

He was still in his transformed state after destroying #19, so he wasn't drained to the point of being unable to be transformed. His ploy was to seem as weak as possible yet remain confident as possible about being able to win still, so being transformed would have defeated the purpose a fair bit.

[Israelite Wolfman]

Copied from another thread but seems relevant here:

How the storyline progressed after the Frieza Saga was quite disturbing and pessimistic for the Humans: So we all know Frieza at his full power back on Namek was at 120,000,000 while SSJ Goku reached 150,000,000, while the Humans were like at the ten thousands or at best slightly above 100,000, then there was a gap of a year and eight months where peace seemed to returned and all is left is to wait for Goku to return (I like to take into account the Garlic Jr. Saga filler events to put some juice in the awaiting), then we learn that Frieza isn't dead but in fact was cybernetically enhanced by his father's scientists and alongside King Cold is on his way to Earth even stronger than before - during this event we learn that the Human Z-Fighters had not progressed as drastically in strength to be able to protect their planet even with the likes of Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan on their side. IMO at the Future Trunks Saga the Humans' Power Levels are at the hundred thousands EACH while the 3 stronger but not Earthling (at least not fully) characters are at the low singular digit millions each.

Once the Frieza & Cold meance is over by Future Trunks we had for the session of 3 years of training for the Androids, at the end of that Piccolo had improved DRAMATICALLY to be able of taking out Android 20 (who should be at least over Frieza's power level to be viewed as a threat) while the Humans didn't grew so exponentially in power, being at around the lower single digit millions (IMHO: Tien; 5,000,000; Krillin: 4,500,000; Yamcha: 3,000,000) with Chiaotzu is about 1,000,000 at best if not still in the hundred thousands to leave him behind as Akira Toriyama didn't found him battle-worthy anymore. Tien can still burst a Shin-Kikho barrage (don't know if the Senzu he got after Android 17 choke him helped him power up) that leaves even the likes of Androids 18 & 16 (two who are alone several times stronger than Gero who is stronger than Frieza) in shock and to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell who should be in the higher hundred millions if not in the region of billions for a few minutes. But Krillin and Yamcha were totally neglected during this saga till the very end of it. While preparing for the Cell Games we see everyone, INCLUDING CHIAOTZU, training their best for 10 days to gain as much power as they can for the tournament. While STILL not growing monstrously in power like the gap Piccolo did even before merging with Kami to become a Super Namek, Yamcha & Tien proves (in the anime at least) able to beat up a Cell Jr. while teaming up to save the exhausted SSJ Goku, Krillin barely survives the fight with the small evil Bio-Androids. They later help SSJ2 Gohan in his Kamehameha struggle with Super Perfect Cell in a desperate attempt to save their home planet, but as Cell himself noted: Their power levels are as flies to him and blew them away like pests (Super Namekian Piccolo included) with a power up.

After 7 years where almost all but Tien and Chiaotzu neglected their training the Humans' power levels had most likely dropped from it's peak, mostly because the kids in Japan of the 1990s wanted more Super Saiyan toys and merchs than Humans so they had to be tossed away somehow to clear the room for "the Super Saiyans & Piccolo Show" with cameo filler fight scenes by the Humans: Krillin vs. Super Buu that ended with everyone on Kami's Lookout turned into candy and eaten alive, Tien vs. Super Buu with Gotenks+Piccolo absorbed that showed Humans don't have anything to sell against this power tier, Yamcha vs. Olibu and Winged-Gorilla was a fanservice scene, and so does Yamcha vs. Krillin, and the fight of the Grand Kai's Planet fighters vs. Kid Buu when Krillin and Yamcha lasted even longer than Pikkon.

With Dragon Ball Super I'd really liked to see ALL the Humans jump into the Beerus fight before Goku shows up, same about Resurrection 'F' where they could have their calories burning time with Frieza's soldiers.

[Israelite Wolfman]

Revised with numbers to make sense:

How the storyline progressed after the Frieza Saga was quite disturbing and pessimistic for the Humans: So we all know Frieza at his full power back on Namek was at 120,000,000 while SSJ Goku reached 150,000,000, while the Humans were like at the ten thousands (Chiaotzu: 25,000; Yamcha: 70,000) or at best slightly above 100,000 (IMO Krillin: 130,000 and Tien: 115,000), then there was a gap of a year and eight months where peace seemed to returned and all is left is to wait for Goku to return (I like to take into account the Garlic Jr. Saga filler events to put some juice in the awaiting), then we learn that Frieza isn't dead but in fact was cybernetically enhanced by his father's scientists and alongside King Cold is on his way to Earth even stronger than before - during this event we learn that the Human Z-Fighters had not progressed as drastically in strength to be able to protect their planet even with the likes of Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan on their side. IMO at the Future Trunks Saga the Humans' Power Levels are at the hundred thousands EACH (Chiaotzu: 500,000; Yamcha: 700,000; Krillin: 750,000; Tien: 800,000) while the 3 stronger but not Earthling (at least not fully) characters are at the low singular digit millions each (Gohan: 1,000,000; Piccolo: 3,000,000; Vegeta: 4,000,000).

Once the Frieza & Cold meance is over by Future Trunks we had for the session of 3 years of training for the Androids, at the end of that Piccolo had improved DRAMATICALLY to be able of taking out Android 20 (who should be at least over Frieza's power level to be viewed as a threat) while the Humans didn't grew so exponentially in power, being at around the lower single digit millions (IMHO: Tien; 4,500,000; Krillin: 4,000,000; Yamcha: 3,500,000) with Chiaotzu is about 1,000,000 at best if not still in the hundred thousands to leave him behind as Akira Toriyama didn't found him battle-worthy anymore. Tien can still burst a Shin-Kikho barrage (don't know if the Senzu he got after Android 17 choke him helped him power up, but for the worst scenario let's say he didn't and still at 4.5 million, I'd say it was like a steep rising of 100 to 200 times power boost so he'd reach 900,000,000 to faze Cell but with the cost of his life force) that leaves even the likes of Androids 18 & 16 (two who are alone several times stronger than Gero who is stronger than Frieza) in shock and to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell who should be in the higher hundred millions if not in the region of single digit billions for a few minutes. But Krillin and Yamcha were totally neglected during this saga till the very end of it - with Yamcha's becoming a first aid guy and a pilot/driver after being jobbed by Android 20/Dr. Gero (same doubt of a power up as about Tien above) to demonstrate "the new threat is on a scale Humans won't do against" and with Krillin becoming the Senzu beans guy who is conflicted with himself about his feelings towards Android 18 who should be his enemy, only to fight against the real antagonist of the epoch: Cell in all of his forms (1st encounter Krillin would be as listed above only to rise himself to 6,000,000 when headbutting Imperfect Cell, maybe 7,000,000 in his rage boost while Taioken-blinded against Semi-Perfect Cell, and to 10,000,000 with his power angry attacks against Perfect Cell, maybe breaking the 12,500,000 with his Kienzan). While preparing for the Cell Games we see everyone, INCLUDING CHIAOTZU (who should be at the 1.5 million range if he grew stronger, yet not enough to be allowed by Tien to join them for Cell's tournament), training their best for 10 days to gain as much power as they can for the tournament. While STILL not growing monstrously in power like the gap Piccolo did even before merging with Kami to become a Super Namek, Yamcha (9,000,000) & Tien (11,000,000) prove (in the anime at least) able, with a-la-Kaioken power-up (I'd like to think it's a x10 Kaioken they've picked while at King Kai's in my headcanon), to beat up a Cell Jr. while teaming up to save the exhausted SSJ Goku, Krillin (later to be established as the strongest Human is at 12,000,000 IMHO) barely survives the fight with the small evil Bio-Androids. They later help SSJ2 Gohan in his Kamehameha struggle with Super Perfect Cell in a desperate attempt to save their home planet (Tien's Tri-beam are at 150x to make him: 1,650,000 that's still lower than even Semi-Perfect Cell to make sense; Krillin's Kamehameha is at 25,000,000 and Yamcha's Kamehameha is at 20,000,000), but as Cell himself noted: Their power levels are as flies to him and blew them away like pests (Super Namekian Piccolo included) with a power up.

After 7 years where almost all but Tien (25,000,000 - based on his Non-Canon Movie 9 battle with Future Trunks I'd say Humans can put up a fight to base form Saiyans) and Chiaotzu (2,500,000 to 3,000,000) neglected their training the Humans' power levels had most likely dropped from it's peak (Yamcha: 4,000,000; Krillin: 6,000,000 when is approached by Gohan and 10,000,000 at the 28th Tenkaichi Bodukai), mostly because the kids in Japan of the 1990s wanted more Super Saiyan toys and merchs than Humans so they had to be tossed away somehow to clear the room for "the Super Saiyans & Piccolo Show" with cameo filler fight scenes by the Humans: Krillin vs. Super Buu that ended with everyone on Kami's Lookout turned into candy and eaten alive, Tien (let's make the 100x again to reach 2,500,000,000 as he didn't drew an intense attack as against Semi-Perfect Cell) vs. Super Buu with Gotenks+Piccolo absorbed (must be a two digits billions BP creature) that showed Humans don't have anything to sell against this power tier, Yamcha (back training with his fighting spirit should be 20,000,000) vs. Olibu and Winged-Gorilla was a fanservice scene, and so does Yamcha vs. Krillin (who also got back on track at 30,000,000 to be established as the strongest Human), and the fight of the Grand Kai's Planet fighters vs. Kid Buu when Krillin and Yamcha lasted even longer than Pikkon.

With Dragon Ball Super (Whether it takes place 4 years after Kid Buu's defeat or just about less than a year) I'd really liked to see ALL the Humans, despite being far outclassed (Roshi is at about 1,000 to make his next arc appearance BACK on the front lines easier to swallow, the rest are as follows, maybe Krillin and Yamcha being at 13,500,000 and 7,500,000 respectively, Tien is at 26,500,000 and Chiaotzu is at about 4,500,000), STILL jump into the Beerus (his power is not even measurable as he keeps showing he's indeed stronger than Goku & Vegeta as long as times passes) fight before Goku shows up, same about Resurrection 'F' where they (Roshi is at 3,000 at base and 10,000 when using his buff form to 20,000 when using Maximum Power Kamehameha, Yamcha: 7,000,000 as he dropped considerably from his peak due to stop training for martial arts and is now probably a full time baseball player, Chiaotzu who's Tien's training partner should reach 5,000,000, Krillin who is titled by the film "Strongest Earthling" suffers from the same "quitting once there is a timegap" background as Yamcha thus should be at 13,000,000; Tien who still trains but is aged, DESPITE THAT DBS tries to strech the physical limits of the Humas so they'd be able to show up in further plots so I'd say Tien is at 28,000,000 while in RoF) could have their calories burning time with Frieza's soldiers who were merely 1000 B rate remnants (weaker than the grunts Frieza deployed on Namek).

I don't see how and where to place the Human Z-Fighters in the U6 Tournament other than viewers as all contestants there could stand up to SSJ Goku and Vegeta (Krillin implied in episodes 75 & 76 he won't be able to face Goku in Super Saiyan form BEFORE the last Krillin's stand-off with SSB Goku - retcon?) who should be stronger than RoF Final Form Frieza who was equal in strength to base Goku before the 3 years HTC training for this Champa Arc, and in the Goku Black Arc that was a "Sayians versus Zamasus for the sake of the universes" story. HOWEVER the new Zeno Tournament of Power preparations show that with strategy even the Human characters like Krillin, who powered up greatly since episode 76 (IMHO he was at 45,000,000 when he "rediscovered" his fighting passion in the Forrest of Illusions and now as of episode 84 when he sparred with Gohan he's at 150,000,000 rivaling SSJ Goku from Namek), can out-ring characters stronger than them by several folds (Gohan is now stronger than ever so he should be in the 2 digit billions again).