Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

The fight only swayed in Lavender favor because Gohan literally couldn't see. Once he figured out a way to do so, he powered up to Super Saiyan, and started kicking Lavnader's ass and was about the end the fight before the power poison accelerated due to Gohan using SSJ. Which lead to his power being crippled. And even then Gohan was still able to overpower him. Unless you believe that Majin Boo is God-tier, SSJ = SSJG can't work.

Lavender fought base Gohan on even ground before he poisoned him. That happened seconds into the fight, so it wasn't like Gohan was owing Lavender before he got poisoned. He went Super Saiyan and Lavender still took the hits and could fight. If Lavender was only even or weaker than base form Gohan, Super Saiyan Gohan should have one-shotted him the first attack before the poison drained his strength. He wasn't about to finished nothing, Gohan dropped in the middle of the fight before he did anything closed to finishing move.

No, you don't want it to work. Goku in his base took hits from Buu and was no worst for wear. Goku didn't bother to transform, yet he did against Krillin. Unless you're trying to say Krillin is much stronger than Buu.

Rewatching the fight 17 is definitely ssjb level his comments refered to before meaning the power he was at during the cell saga not current.

He was talking current, otherwise why would Goku note that 17 was holding back if they're talking about the past?

He talk about before key word before not current going by the official subs

[HeroR]

He talk about before key word before not current going by the official subs

Goku's response doesn't reflect that since he claimed 17 was holding back. We also had Goku saying, 'I will try not to kill you'.

[Marlowe89]

Goku in his base took hits from Buu and was no worst for wear.

Yes he was. He noticed Buu rushing at him but couldn't react in time to defend himself, got knocked to the ground, and then proceeded to say "Ow" repeatedly before complimenting Buu on how amazing he was.

Slim Buu was absolutely capable of harming base Goku in their sparring match. It's literally right there in the scene.

[SaiyanGod117]

He talk about before key word before not current going by the official subs

Goku's response doesn't reflect that since he claimed 17 was holding back. We also had Goku saying, 'I will try not to kill you'.

When did he ever say that? Because I didn't see that.

[Bullza]

That doesn't make much sense. Why would Goku not used his 'god power' in his base and just dumped it into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Goku said that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan takes more stamina than his base form, so it would be a benefit if Goku could used a lot of power without transforming.

Well that would be the condundrum, maybe it's the God power that's using up the stamina and that's why he only uses it when he can use it as it's best which would be with Super Saiyan Blue. I don't really have any good explanation for it and it might not be true anyway.

All I know is that he absorbed that power and in his Base form by the Resurrection F saga should be much stronger than he was as a Super Saiyan God when he fought Beerus.

But now he doesn't seem like he's anywhere near that strong whatsoever. It would seem likely he's not using this God power when he turns into a Super Saiyan 1-3 otherwise the Kai's would have said he was at the level of Gods then.

It's implied Piccolo is stronger than the Base Saiyans at the Tournament. He's roughly comparable to Trunks who definitely isn't at that level and Gohan whose not at his Ultimate level. He's had some trouble with people he shouldn't have.

Obviously the manga already shows this anyway and I know is the anime is different but it's a good possibility.

And 'level of the gods' can easily mean god ki, or that his power approached that of a God of Destruction. Gowasu said pretty much the same thing about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

All they said was that Vegeta was at a level where he could sense the level of God Ki and the same conversation did lead it to seemingly being about a matter of general power. Frieza was on par with this level and Trunks was not even as a Super Saiyan 2.

Gowasu said he rivalled a God of Destruction but that looks like he was mistakenly assuming that he rivalled Beerus in that particular form and Beerus did correct him.

[pacz360]

Goku in his base took hits from Buu and was no worst for wear.

Yes he was. He noticed Buu rushing at him but couldn't react in time to defend himself, got knocked to the ground, and then proceeded to say "Ow" repeatedly before complimenting Buu on how amazing he was.

Slim Buu was absolutely capable of harming base Goku in their sparring match. It's literally right there in the scene.

Yet goku didn't worse for wear plus buu gotten stronger if that was the case goku would've turn ssj

[HeroR]

Goku in his base took hits from Buu and was no worst for wear.

Yes he was. He noticed Buu rushing at him but couldn't react in time to defend himself, got knocked to the ground, and then proceeded to say "Ow" repeatedly before complimenting Buu on how amazing he was.

Slim Buu was absolutely capable of harming base Goku in their sparring match. It's literally right there in the scene.

He harm him as causing some pain, not crippling Goku in any meaningful way, which was my point. This is after Buu shot several energy blast at him and punched him several times.

That doesn't make much sense. Why would Goku not used his 'god power' in his base and just dumped it into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Goku said that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan takes more stamina than his base form, so it would be a benefit if Goku could used a lot of power without transforming.

Well that would be the condundrum, maybe it's the God power that's using up the stamina and that's why he only uses it when he can use it as it's best which would be with Super Saiyan Blue. I don't really have any good explanation for it and it might not be true anyway.

All I know is that he absorbed that power and in his Base form by the Resurrection F saga should be much stronger than he was as a Super Saiyan God when he fought Beerus.

But now he doesn't seem like he's anywhere near that strong whatsoever. It would seem likely he's not using this God power when he turns into a Super Saiyan 1-3 otherwise the Kai's would have said he was at the level of Gods then.

It's implied Piccolo is stronger than the Base Saiyans at the Tournament. He's roughly comparable to Trunks who definitely isn't at that level and Gohan whose not at his Ultimate level. He's had some trouble with people he shouldn't have.

Obviously the manga already shows this anyway and I know is the anime is different but it's a good possibility.

And 'level of the gods' can easily mean god ki, or that his power approached that of a God of Destruction. Gowasu said pretty much the same thing about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

All they said was that Vegeta was at a level where he could sense the level of God Ki and the same conversation did lead it to seemingly being about a matter of general power. Frieza was on par with this level and Trunks was not even as a Super Saiyan 2.

Gowasu said he rivalled a God of Destruction but that looks like he was mistakenly assuming that he rivalled Beerus in that particular form and Beerus did correct him.

Goku outright says that god ki used stamina, which is why he fought Hit in his base form and why he usually go Super Saiyan before going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan unless pressed or he wants to test someone in a specific way. So him putting his gains into his transformations wouldn't make sense. If he could, he would put all his power in his base form so he can have the power, but not the stamina lost, even if the drain is small.

It isn't that Goku isn't as strong, it is the fact that he is fighting stronger people and Goku sandbags. It is like claiming that the androids can't be as strong as Freeza since there is no noticeable power different Namek Saga Super Saiyan Goku and Cell Games Super Saiyan Goku.

Gowasu called it Super Saiyan 2 the level of a god after seeing it against Zamasu, so this argument is a flaw base. Especially since they seemed more surprised that a mortal had god ki.

I doubt it is a possible, otherwise the anime would be using Super Saiyan God and handwave some explanation.

[Marlowe89]

He harm him as causing some pain, not crippling Goku in any meaningful way, which was my point. This is after Buu shot several energy blast at him and punched him several times.

Buu wasn't aiming to cripple or seriously injure Goku in the first place because it was a sparring match. You said that he wasn't worse for wear, which is outright false because Goku specifically suggested he was worse for wear.

Buu managed to harm Goku. That's what the scene presents.

[ZombieVito]

Goku turned into SSJ to spar with Android 17 and they fought evenly.

This not only proves the two base theory without a shadow of a doubt now but it also gives credibility to the normal base not being way stronger than their Boo arc ones as DBZGTKOSH said.

Goku fought Buu without transforming and Buu got stronger and faster. Even if we go with this two-base theory, their normal base form is already stronger than they were in the Buu Saga since Beerus claimed that Goku's base was weaker than Freeza. And 17 was able to fight a suppressed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, making this even more moot since that would put 17 above Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods.

Well of course they are stronger (Since they improved since BoG) but not by dozens of times.

17 definitely improved a lot but I wouldn't put him over SSJ2 Goku.

[Marlowe89]

Also noticed this from earlier in the thread:

And 'level of the gods' can easily mean god ki, or that his power approached that of a God of Destruction. Gowasu said pretty much the same thing about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

The term "level of the gods" has been used on multiple occasions throughout the show and it has always referred to a tier of strength that started at Super Saiyan God. Why would it suddenly mean something different now?

During the exhibition match, Goku wasn't mentioned to have reached this level until transforming into Super Saiyan Blue; therefore all forms prior to Blue shouldn't be as strong as SSG.

[HeroR]

He harm him as causing some pain, not crippling Goku in any meaningful way, which was my point. This is after Buu shot several energy blast at him and punched him several times.

Buu wasn't aiming to cripple or seriously injure Goku in the first place because it was a sparring match. You said that he wasn't worse for wear, which is outright false because Goku specifically suggested he was worse for wear.

Buu managed to harm Goku. That's what the scene presents.

He was at first since they had to remind him not to kill people. Even then, Goku was keeping up with him. Goku didn't say he was worst for wear. The most Goku said was that Buu caught him flatfooted.

Also noticed this from earlier in the thread:

And 'level of the gods' can easily mean god ki, or that his power approached that of a God of Destruction. Gowasu said pretty much the same thing about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

The term "level of the gods" has been used on multiple occasions throughout the show and it has always referred to a tier of strength that started at Super Saiyan God. Why would it suddenly mean something different now?

During the exhibition match, Goku wasn't mentioned to have reached this level until transforming into Super Saiyan Blue; therefore all forms prior to Blue shouldn't be as strong as SSG.

Actually, it hasn't since Freeza, Hit, and not even Future Trunks weren't called the 'level of the gods' despite being in the realm of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

This not only proves the two base theory without a shadow of a doubt now but it also gives credibility to the normal base not being way stronger than their Boo arc ones as DBZGTKOSH said.

Goku fought Buu without transforming and Buu got stronger and faster. Even if we go with this two-base theory, their normal base form is already stronger than they were in the Buu Saga since Beerus claimed that Goku's base was weaker than Freeza. And 17 was able to fight a suppressed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, making this even more moot since that would put 17 above Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods.

Well of course they are stronger (Since they improved since BoG) but not by dozens of times.

17 definitely improved a lot but I wouldn't put him over SSJ2 Goku.

It would be far more than dozens of time. Even if we low ball Buu and say he's only Majin Vegeta's level, that would mean that Goku base form alone is over 100x stronger than it was during Battle of Gods since Majin Vegeta is Vegeta's base (weaker than Freeza) plus 50x from Super Saiyan and 2x from Super Saiyan 2.

[pacz360]

This not only proves the two base theory without a shadow of a doubt now but it also gives credibility to the normal base not being way stronger than their Boo arc ones as DBZGTKOSH said.

Goku fought Buu without transforming and Buu got stronger and faster. Even if we go with this two-base theory, their normal base form is already stronger than they were in the Buu Saga since Beerus claimed that Goku's base was weaker than Freeza. And 17 was able to fight a suppressed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, making this even more moot since that would put 17 above Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods.

Well of course they are stronger (Since they improved since BoG) but not by dozens of times.

17 definitely improved a lot but I wouldn't put him over SSJ2 Goku.

Lol at 17 being ssj2 goku didn't even intend to use ssjb on him and given that 17 did meaning he should be around blue level.

[Marlowe89]

He was at first since they had to remind him not to kill people. Even then, Goku was keeping up with him. Goku didn't say he was worst for wear. The most Goku said was that Buu caught him flatfooted.

They were referring to possible casualties as a result of the fight, not Goku specifically. Buu was never aiming to kill Goku, and my point was that he managed to harm him regardless during the match.

I never said that Goku couldn't keep up with Buu.

Actually, it hasn't

Yes it has. We first heard the term before Super Saiyan Blue was even introduced.

[julianix]

You guys are making nothing into something. There's no consistency in Gokus power level so you can't base anything using him as the bar.

17 and Buu will probably end up being relatively similar as they both seem like characters Toei is focusing on. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the others caught up to them as well.

[ZombieVito]

It would be far more than dozens of time. Even if we low ball Buu and say he's only Majin Vegeta's level, that would mean that Goku base form alone is over 100x stronger than it was during Battle of Gods since Majin Vegeta is Vegeta's base (weaker than Freeza) plus 50x from Super Saiyan and 2x from Super Saiyan 2.

I don't believe Boo went all out against base Goku. I also don't think Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Majin Vegeta in their normal base.

Hell I got them way weaker than that at the moment. Hopefully we get concrete information on the tournament.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Right now it currently seems to stand:

(Most-powerful at the top, and least powerful at the bottom)
Goku
Vegeta
Android 17
Slim Buu
Gohan
Piccolo
Android 18
Krillin
Tien
Roshi


Regardless of any of this ... I believe we will see a better gauge of people's strength when the Tournament of Power begins.

[Bullza]

Goku outright says that god ki used stamina,

Well specifically all he said was that transforming uses up a lot of stamina, not using God Ki so it could be draining in the same way Super Saiyan was.

Though if using God power was draining then that could have been a reason as to why he didn't use it anymore except for when he's Blue thus explaining why he appears weaker now in the ordinary forms.

As for sandbagging Vegeta did just that against Gotenks and he referred to him as a mosquito yet it doesn't go that way for Goku against weaker opposition.

[HeroR]

He was at first since they had to remind him not to kill people. Even then, Goku was keeping up with him. Goku didn't say he was worst for wear. The most Goku said was that Buu caught him flatfooted.

They were referring to possible casualties as a result of the fight, not Goku specifically. Buu was never aiming to kill Goku, and my point was that he managed to harm him regardless during the match.

I never said that Goku couldn't keep up with Buu.

Actually, it hasn't

Yes it has. We first heard the term before Super Saiyan Blue was even introduced.

We have seen several characters who were even to stronger to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and was never called 'the level of the gods' like Golden Freeza, Hit, Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks, and even Toppo who is candidate to be a God of Destruction. So 'level of the gods' seems reserve with character with god ki, unless you're telling me that the characters I name are all weaker than Super Saiyan God.

He harmed Goku because Goku underestimated him, something Goku admitted to. Even then, Goku only was hurt a little. It wasn't like he was limping in pain and didn't even feel the need to go Super Saiyan.

Goku outright says that god ki used stamina,

Well specifically all he said was that transforming uses up a lot of stamina, not using God Ki so it could be draining in the same way Super Saiyan was.

Though if using God power was draining then that could have been a reason as to why he didn't use it anymore except for when he's Blue thus explaining why he appears weaker now in the ordinary forms.

As for sandbagging Vegeta did just that against Gotenks and he referred to him as a mosquito yet it doesn't go that way for Goku against weaker opposition.

Even then, untransformed god ki should drain less stamina than Goku transforming since transforming use stamina regardless of mastery. Vegeta didn't really sandbag to Gotenks since he didn't lower himself to Gotenks' level to fight him, which Goku regularly does.

It would be far more than dozens of time. Even if we low ball Buu and say he's only Majin Vegeta's level, that would mean that Goku base form alone is over 100x stronger than it was during Battle of Gods since Majin Vegeta is Vegeta's base (weaker than Freeza) plus 50x from Super Saiyan and 2x from Super Saiyan 2.

I don't believe Boo went all out against base Goku. I also don't think Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Majin Vegeta in their normal base.

Hell I got them way weaker than that at the moment. Hopefully we get concrete information on the tournament.

Why wouldn't he since he was being tested and wanted to show off. He also knew that Goku can take a hit and transform. There was no need for Buu to hold back.

And they're weaker than Majin Vegeta despite Goku fighting even with Buu and taking hits. How much do you think Buu was holding back? This is really reaching.

[ZombieVito]

Why wouldn't he since he was being tested and wanted to show off. He also knew that Goku can take a hit and transform. There was no need for Buu to hold back.

And they're weaker than Majin Vegeta despite Goku fighting even with Buu and taking hits. How much do you think Buu was holding back? This is really reaching.

There was no need to hold back against Basil but he did. Boo likes to play around and barely fights seriously.

It's nothing new.

[Marlowe89]

We have seen several characters who were even to stronger to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and was never called 'the level of the gods' like Golden Freeza, Hit, Super Saiyan Rage Future Trunks, and even Toppo who is candidate to be a God of Destruction. So 'level of the gods' seems reserve with character with god ki, unless you're telling me that the characters I name are all weaker than Super Saiyan God.

Why would that term need to be used every time a god-level character appears? You're completely missing my point.

The term refers to a specific tier of strength (there are at least two occasions it was used when only strength was talked about and Goku wasn't using God ki) and it was first mentioned in the show as a measuring stick fulfilled by Super Saiyan God. Therefore SSG is where the "level of the gods" begins and there's absolutely no reason to assume that the term would suddenly refer to something completely different when it was used in the exhibition match. The fact of the matter is that Goku wasn't commented to have reached this level in that episode until going Blue.

He harmed Goku because Goku underestimated him, something Goku admitted to. Even then, Goku only was hurt a little. It wasn't like he was limping in pain and didn't even feel the need to go Super Saiyan.

He harmed Goku because Goku couldn't react in time to put his guard up - it doesn't change the fact that he was capable of harming him. Again, Buu never intended to kill or seriously injure Goku and nobody's arguing that Goku would have needed to go Super Saiyan in a serious fight between the two.