Unpopular DB opinions

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The Gotenks portion of the Z series has always been almost entirely unwatchable to me. From the time the Fusion pose is introduced up until Gohan arriving at the battlefield is 15 episodes (give or take) of the DB story at its worst (I don't include GT here because I haven't seen it). I've never liked the concept of Fusion to begin with and the pacing during this time just drags and drags. It feels like the wheels are just spinning. The only salvageable bits are the cutaways to the Kaioshin Realm, but even that is directly connected to the Gotenks plot. I just recently watched through Buu Kai hoping that the pacing during that section would be much better - like cut down to 1/3 - but it still felt the same as the original Z and was a real chore to get through.

Give me Bulma's Namekian Adventures, Garlic Jr., and the terrible Maron filler. Every. Single. Time.

It never ceases to amaze me how much people are actually divided on this. I always thought it was good fun, Toriyama just being Toriyama, but there's a huge portion of fans that absolutely hate it.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Oh, I thought that I was in the minority with that, seeing as how popular Gotenks seems to be, with getting occasional return appearances (2008 Special, Super). I get that Toriyama just pens down whatever may come to mind, and I get that Gotenks was definitely a last treat for the kids and devoted fans as the original manga was nearing its end - but the anime (and Kai) is just a borefest.

While my appreciation for the Buu arc as a whole has gone up a lot in recent years, that portion of the arc is something that still takes me out of the story - and to make it worse, it's just a stalling device. It reminds me a little about the Freeza arc when it's Vegeta, Kuririn, Gohan, and Piccolo vs. Freeza, except the characters here and situation are much more interesting. It's still stalling and somewhat boring, but one is executed better than the other, imo.

[Cipher]

Ya'll can get right out of here, because Gotenks is one of the best parts of the series. This is supposed to be the "Unpopular Opinions" thread, not the "Wrong Opinions" thread.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Sorry, Cipher. I just have never been able to get into it (the anime's adaptation that is). Perhaps if it were a 3-5 episode staller, then I might be onboard with you. I will say though, that I've always found the various images of Buu getting blown-up during that fight (and throughout the arc) amusing.

[Soppa Saia People]

Ya'll can get right out of here, because Gotenks is one of the best parts of the series. This is supposed to be the "Unpopular Opinions" thread, not the "Wrong Opinions" thread.

Yeah, I don't really know how people hate Gotenks, especially the ROSAT part, it's just classic Toriyama fun. It's great.

[ABED]

It undercuts the tension WAY too much. Goten's mother has just been murdered in front of him and Gotenks is acting goofy through the whole fight. It would be like Goku being silly during the fight against Freeza after Kuririn's death.

[The gr]

I love Gotenks,he is so funny,he along with Vegeta, saiyaman,Satan,Buu and vegito are the highlights of that saga,it was so funny and wacky, and is weird because I'm not a fan of Goten and I like present trunks

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It undercuts the tension WAY too much. Goten's mother has just been murdered in front of him and Gotenks is acting goofy through the whole fight. It would be like Goku being silly during the fight against Freeza after Kuririn's death.

Gotenks' defining trait is his overconfidence, he's really not comparable to Goku in this regard. Also, his mother hadn't just been murdered, that had happened weeks ago for Goten and Trunks, during which both of them drastically improved themselves. It's really no wonder he acted the way he did given his existing character flaws.

[Cipher]

The thing I love about Gotenks -- and this goes along with the Boo arc's subversions in general -- is that for the umpteenth time, Goku or someone else is forced to pin their hopes on a fantastically powerful child, and for the first time ever, it goes about as well as you'd expect. This time the kids involved didn't grow up in the woods with a hermit master, or get kidnapped by Piccolo and trained in the desert before a childhood of strife. Instead, they had relatively normal, coddled lives watching henshin hero shows. Gotenks makes perfect, hilarious sense, and watching everyone have to turn to him to save the universe is fantastic.

I know some people take issue with his lack of seriousness after Boo kills Chi-Chi and is assumed to have killed Gohan, but for me that's always seemed justified by Gotenks being portrayed as something of a separate person. He isn't fully Goten or Trunks; he's a hilarious little asshole they summon out of the ether when they fuse.

The thing that lets the RoSaT fight work so well is that Boo's just as madcap, and poor Piccolo is forced to stand by as these two idiots decide the fate of the world.

[ABED]

It undercuts the tension WAY too much. Goten's mother has just been murdered in front of him and Gotenks is acting goofy through the whole fight. It would be like Goku being silly during the fight against Freeza after Kuririn's death.

Gotenks' defining trait is his overconfidence, he's really not comparable to Goku in this regard. Also, his mother hadn't just been murdered, that had happened weeks ago for Goten and Trunks, during which both of them drastically improved themselves. It's really no wonder he acted the way he did given his existing character flaws.

I get all that, it doesn't make it better. Even if your mother was killed weeks before, do you think you'd act as though it never happened?

There's a time and place for subverting expectations and being madcap, but that wasn't it. The stakes are made irrelevant.

[Cipher]

I can't fully agree that it kills the tension, because it doesn't suddenly cut against anyone's character in a way that would inauthentically shift the series into comedy. Gotenks and Boo are comedic because ... that's who they are. It's in their characters. The arc just gets to a point where they're forced into conflict while more sober minds have to stand by.

Rather than grinding tension to a halt, in my book that actually increases it as much as anything else. The scenes unto themselves are comedic, but the general tone of the arc from Boo's appearance to the end is one of whiplash frenzy, in which shit is basically hitting the fan faster than the characters can comprehend.

But that's also Dragon Ball's perfect tone for me -- one in which dire conflict and absurd character comedy are moving in lockstep at a frantic pace.

[Kunzait_83]

One of the best things about the fusion concept is how the fusion warriors are treated as their own distinctly separate characters. They have discernible, trace elements of the two warriors who make up the fusion, but ultimately Gotenks is neither Goten or Trunks just as Vegetto isn't really Goku or Vegeta.

And with Gotenks, he's the pure unfiltered id of every nightmarishly bratty, hyperactive, sugar rushed, ADD-addled, overly pampered and spoiled grade school boy given god-level wuxia martial arts powers and turned loose against a god-killing pink bubblegum demon.

In what is ultimately a gag manga spit take on a densely epic mythical martial arts story (that's played semi-straight only whenever the author feels like it), Gotenks is Toriyama in full gag mangaka-mode at his most anarchic and loopy. He's one of the most purely Tori-esque and Dragon Ball-ish things in all of DB itself, and is worth having if only for his utterly random and pulled-straight-from-his-ass martial arts techniques (that are exactly what you'd expect an over-energized 7 year old kid suddenly given limitless qigong abilities to make up off the top of his head on the spot).

I don't know how anyone can be a die hard Toriyama/Dragon Ball fan yet somehow find Gotenks' presence to be the least bit out of place. He's like the core-most essence of the whole enterprise (and to some degree, its target audience) given shape and form. And I concur that he in no way undercuts the stakes or tension: if anything, he ADDS to it (and the comedy as well) by being such an unstable presence that the other, more straight characters have no choice but to depend on to take down Boo. And of course its both squirm inducing as well as hilarious watching Gotenks' childish inanity only dig themselves deeper and deeper, while still carrying just enough of a fight against Boo to also allow a window of hope.

[ABED]

I recognize it as very Toriyama-esque. It has his unique voice, but the Buu arc tries to have its cake and eat it too with having huge world threatening stakes and very broad comedy. In this particular example, I don't think it works. Piccolo seems much more annoyed by Gotenks' antics than worried about the fate of the world is in the hands of a bratty child. It's within Gotenks' character to be comedic, but I don't see what that has to do with the lack of tension. I think something like the Ginyu Tokusentai does a much better job of mixing broad comedy with life threatening stakes. Their broadness belies their brutality. I like when stories shifts in tone, but it's all dependent on execution.

[Noah]

Yeah I don't like much Gotenks part either, not his character but that portion of the series where things could be taken more seriously, it only gets better when he turns into SSJ3 IMO.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Plot development according to powerlevel "logic" is absolute BS and limiting in what you could do, I'm baffle by how some fans can like this approach and want the the series to be dead set on this mode.

[ABED]

Plot development according to powerlevel "logic" is absolute BS and limiting in what you could do, I'm baffle by how some fans can like this approach and want the the series to be dead set on this mode.

Limits are often a good thing.

[ekrolo2]

I recognize it as very Toriyama-esque. It has his unique voice, but the Buu arc tries to have its cake and eat it too with having huge world threatening stakes and very broad comedy. In this particular example, I don't think it works. Piccolo seems much more annoyed by Gotenks' antics than worried about the fate of the world is in the hands of a bratty child. It's within Gotenks' character to be comedic, but I don't see what that has to do with the lack of tension. I think something like the Ginyu Tokusentai does a much better job of mixing broad comedy with life threatening stakes. Their broadness belies their brutality. I like when stories shifts in tone, but it's all dependent on execution.

The tonal whiplash is one of the Boo arcs biggest problems, that and it's failure to try and be tense and funny at the same time. Goten and Trunks know Boo killed Gohan and Vegeta and want revenge on him until.... they don't anymore because it'll get in the way of his antics later. Then Gotenks flat out gives no fucks about him killing and eating their moms and keeps dicking around instead of going into a berzerker rage like anyone else would.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

It's not just Gotenks being overly obnoxious and silly that I have issue with here. That entire portion of the arc feels so dry and aimless. Everything from Gohan being in High School, the leadup to the tournament with Goku reuniting with everyone, the tournament itself, the intro of Kaioshin and the threat of Buu, the Vegeta character arc, and up through to the reveal of Goku "going beyond" felt like focused writing. It's so jarring going from a narrative that contained some of the highlight moments of the series and built up some great tension, then into 15 episodes of dance poses and silly gag battles that amounted to stalling in the end. I can't imagine watching these episodes week-to-week in Japan back then. It would've taken about 4 months to get through that part.

Yeah, the reveal that Buu was just a naive and obedient magical chubby demon baby was really silly and jarring too - but it still somehow worked because he was super destructive if being guided by the wrong hands. And then that reveal works out even better when on the other side toward the end we learn of the original Pure Buu and the various incarnations. I can handle Gotenks in small doses, but this particular middle-section of the arc...

Gotenks vs Buu as a backup staller for a couple episodes could've worked for me, but not as the main plot point for 10-15 eps. Mr. Satan befriending Buu was great.

[8000 Saiyan]

Burgmeier hasn't improved anything as Tenshinhan.

[WittyUsername]

I'm not sure whether or not this qualifies as an unpopular opinion at the moment, but I honestly think that Zeno is pretty annoying as a character. I'm not a fan of overly-cutesy characters in general, but the fact that Zeno is established as this all-powerful being that everyone else respects, and whom can never be surpassed no matter what, just feels like it kind of goes against the primary theme of Dragon Ball. I just don't like the idea that every other character in the series is at the mercy of this guy.

On a lesser note, I can't say I cared about the fact that him and his future counterpart were constantly repeating each other's words during the exhibition tournament of the current arc. It came off as annoyingly redundant. If they continue doing that for the Tournament of Power, I'm going to face-palm pretty hard.