Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

To solve this strength debacle, has anyone ever thought of looking at the scriptwriters for each episode and see if there's a level of strength each writer portrays base Goku/Vegeta to be at? If we can find some sort of consistency, then that's good.

[ZombieVito]

Can we get some clarity on which of these translations is correct?

Herms:

17: You can do that transformation too?
Goku: I'll try not to kill you.

Toei:

17: So you can transform like that too?
Goku: To be honest, I didn't intend to.

Holy hell that's way different. Someone contact Herms lol.

[The gr]

To solve this strength debacle, has anyone ever thought of looking at the scriptwriters for each episode and see if there's a level of strength each writer portrays base Goku/Vegeta to be at? If we can find some sort of consistency, then that's good.

I think King Ryu, wrote the episode with krillin,I use This to check who animate or wrote the episode it the episode http://test.animatorscorner.com/animati ... isode-9824, that is a good answer, every writer have a different ways to portray things like power levels

[Lord Beerus]

Can we get some clarity on which of these translations is correct?

Herms:

17: You can do that transformation too?
Goku: I'll try not to kill you.

Toei:

17: So you can transform like that too?
Goku: To be honest, I didn't intend to.

Holy hell that's way different. Someone contact Herms lol.

Herms very rarely messes up. Especially with important info. So I'm going with him on this one. Until he later clarifies something.

[LowRyder2005]

The purpose of the numbers is to show how stupid of an excercise it is. Goku's Base can be sensed, we know for a fact its incredibly powerful, stronger than SS3 Gotenks as shown two episodes prior to the sparring match with Trunks. There is no reason, at all, in any sane place, for Goku, who's Base is leagues ahead of Trunks anything to power himself up dozens of times higher then that, then drop himself to a level of power with SS2 that's vastly inferior to his Base state.

This is pretty relative and dependant on the context; no "explicit" or "apparent" reason doesn't necessarily mean there is no reason at all. At least when adopting an in-universe point of view, for instance, one could easily contend that Goku wanted to pressure Krillin and #17 by showing off his fanciest form when there was no actual need.

I still think some folks are taking the latest spars (Goku vs Krillin, Buu and #17) too seriously in establishing hierarchies. As long as there's no explicit confirmation that, let's say, Goku was going "all out" in his fights everyone should be at liberty to take everything with more than a grain of salt.

Holy hell that's way different. Someone contact Herms lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMBBNOdYBw0

I'm the least reliable person when it comes to Japanese, but I can hear Goku saying "shine (shee-neh)" (around 1.36). It should be a conjugation of the verb "to die", and since "dying" is mentioned nowhere in the official subs I'd lean towards Herms' translation. But if the translations differed this much, this excerpt might be quite trickier than what appears to the eye... or, well, ear.

[TheMikado]

To solve this strength debacle, has anyone ever thought of looking at the scriptwriters for each episode and see if there's a level of strength each writer portrays base Goku/Vegeta to be at? If we can find some sort of consistency, then that's good.

This is actually a really good idea, then we could at least get some idea if there in some time of confusion internally.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well, even if nobody bothered listening to me for this specifically, at least you guys are agreeing to attempt to use the method of looking at creator intent on a case-by-case basis when it comes to determining standings.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So #17 stated that he probably would have lost to Goku if he were present during the Android arc. Not sure if that's an accurate translation, but if so I guess that means full power Android arc Goku>#17, and Goku's statement of not being able to beat the Androids refers to a situation of fighting all of them at once.

[Lord Beerus]

So #17 stated that he probably would have lost to Goku if he were present during the Android arc. Not sure if that's an accurate translation, but if so I guess that means full power Android arc Goku>#17, and Goku's statement of not being able to beat the Androids refers to a situation of fighting all of them at once.

Android 17 is referring to the context of the fight he literally had with Goku while Goku was a SSJB. It's not within the context of the Android arc, and if it was, it wouldn't make sense. The only time that Goku was stronger than Android 17 was after training in the ROSAT and Android 17 had been absorbed by Cell by that time.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So #17 stated that he probably would have lost to Goku if he were present during the Android arc. Not sure if that's an accurate translation, but if so I guess that means full power Android arc Goku>#17, and Goku's statement of not being able to beat the Androids refers to a situation of fighting all of them at once.

Android 17 is referring to the context of the fight he literally had with Goku while Goku was a SSJB. It's not within the context of the Android arc, and if it was, it wouldn't make sense. The only time that Goku was stronger than Android 17 was after training in the ROSAT and Android 17 had been absorbed by Cell by that time.

"If we fought back then, I probably would've lost".

How does that refer to their current fight? They just fought. The context would be referring to a hypothetical fight that never happened.

[Beyond]

So #17 stated that he probably would have lost to Goku if he were present during the Android arc. Not sure if that's an accurate translation, but if so I guess that means full power Android arc Goku>#17, and Goku's statement of not being able to beat the Androids refers to a situation of fighting all of them at once.

Android 17 is referring to the context of the fight he literally had with Goku while Goku was a SSJB. It's not within the context of the Android arc, and if it was, it wouldn't make sense. The only time that Goku was stronger than Android 17 was after training in the ROSAT and Android 17 had been absorbed by Cell by that time.

"If we fought back then, I probably would've lost".

How does that refer to their current fight? They just fought. The context would be referring to a hypothetical fight that never happened.

How does that make sense with actual android saga though? Goku admit inferiority to Piccolo after he fused with Kami. That only changes after he goes into the ROSAT.

[AvatarReiko]

First of all, no evidence exists of Future Trunks being significantly below Goku and Vegeta to the point that their base power is above his SS2 power. If anything, the evidence contradicts this notion, as he's specifically stated to have gotten stronger, was called impressive by Beerus, is able to spar with Present Trunks' SS form in base form, and can gain the upperhand against a dropped-guard Future Zamasu that can exchange power blows with SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Second, transforming even when it's unnecessary is a sign of respect, a clear indicator that a character is escalating the fight, and is visually more distinct than simply powering up in base form. It clearly conveys to another character that the one they're fighting is gonna be moving to the next level. It's not logical, but then being able to harness Ki and transform to turn your hair gold from rage isn't logical either, now is it?

There is evidence because SS3 Gotenks got one-shotted by Copy Vegeta not two episodes prior, so, unless you're going to tell me Trunks, who was barely above Namek Goku after an entire life time spent under the Androids, magically improved enough on his own, without a ROSAT, without Whis, without a God ritual managed to get this powerful without ANY training method to justify it, I'm gonna call BS on him being this powerful, he shouldn't be any stronger than Super Perfect Cell at best who'd be fodder to Base Goku & Vegeta at this point.

Trunks also doesnt give a fuck about warrior respect, he's one of the few characters who actively goes against it and in Goku's fight with Black, he even says "Why doesn't Goku just use that power of his to finish this?" then gawks in shock when Goku's just dicking around with Black instead of killing him. Trunks doesn't give a fuck about the convenient warrior code period.

Bu..bu...but Goku was holding back.

[BlueBasilisk]

How does that make sense with actual android saga though? Goku admit inferiority to Piccolo after he fused with Kami. That only changes after he goes into the ROSAT.

17's probably assuming Goku was stronger than he actually was since he never got to see Goku fight. Goku says he's not sure he would have won.

[TheMikado]

How does that make sense with actual android saga though? Goku admit inferiority to Piccolo after he fused with Kami. That only changes after he goes into the ROSAT.

17's probably assuming Goku was stronger than he actually was since he never got to see Goku fight. Goku says he's not sure he would have won.

None of those assumptions make sense , what would make him draw that conclusion?

[Basako]

How does that make sense with actual android saga though? Goku admit inferiority to Piccolo after he fused with Kami. That only changes after he goes into the ROSAT.

17's probably assuming Goku was stronger than he actually was since he never got to see Goku fight. Goku says he's not sure he would have won.

None of those assumptions make sense , what would make him draw that conclusion?

Well, I can only think he got to know what happened after he was absorbed, he probably spoke with 18 after reviving, and that he is considering that information when he says he would have lost. If you stricktly take the time before the absorption, he was stronger than Goku and he knew it, so that sentence doesn't make sense.

[Lord Beerus]

Well, according to Herms:

No.17 figures that if they had continued he probably would have lost, since Goku still hadn’t been taking the fight serious, but Goku believes No.17 also had power to spare.

Have the subtitles just mislead some people? Did they fumble the manner of the conversation after the fight between Goku and 17 when translating it? Or is Herms wrong?

[dbzfan7]

[spoiler]

Consistency is the dumbest excuse to do anything else. When you're wracking your brain day-after-day, night-after-night, struggling to produce a work you are creatively happy with, the last thing that should be on your mind is 'consistency'. Make something you're happy with, 'cause it sure isn't always going to be possible for someone else to make something you're happy with! This has always been how Toriyama Akira has operated and it is some pretty darn solid advice. When you've been creating a work for years and are still trying to add in new installments and try new things some silly thing like 'consistency' is not going to help. It's going to hinder. Hinder, hinder, hinder!

"Hey, let's do a new kind of tournament where instead of eight people fighting one-on-one it's EIGHTY people fighting all at once!"
"Awesome!"
"Hey, let's give Kuririn and the other humans something to do in this arc. I love their characters!"
"Huh?"
"They can use strategy and techniques to--"
"But that doesn't fit in with how things worked in the earlier story arcs!"
"Eh, whatever. This is what I feel like doing now--"
"NO!!! THE BATTLE POWERS WON'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!"
"We stopped using those for a reas--"
"BESIDES TENSHINHAN IS THE ONLY HUMAN WHO MIGHT EVER BE ABLE TO--"
"Then you make the fucking cartoon by yourself."

Why the hell is anyone attracted to art? It's because we like the experience of consuming the work, of course, but why? It's the characters, the color, the dialogue, the sounds, and the animation...but what do those things represent? The ideas and feelings of their creators. What we are doing is sharing in and learning about the person who creates them. We are experiencing a human connection. That connection is at it's more powerful and fruitful when the work represents the powerful feelings are its creators. If you start making up silly restrictions you are going to get a soulless creation. What the heck is the point of spending your time consuming something its creators have no passion for?
Just my two cents.[/spoiler]

Man that is such a stupid post. The greatest shows that focus on storylines, characters, and actions have consistency. The kind of show he'd be talking about is something like a comedy or wacky cartoon like Animaniacs or Looney Tunes. Those shows get away with it as they go for completely different stories and tones. They're all about being illogical and funny. A lot of what they do is literally impossible. But it's not meant to be something you're supposed to take seriously in anyway. In those shows, a story/scenario is literally just a set up for jokes and humour. That's all it's good for. Setting up the stage.

In comparison the western shows and lots of anime that want you to take it seriously, DO have consistency. Consistency in an ongoing storyline with grounded rules is very important. It's what holds the kind of story Dragon Ball goes for. If Dragon Ball was all about nonsensical silly and wackiness, and a straight up story was not important ala looney tunes, there'd be a point.

I wrote a post in another thread that what I think really bothers people is there is only pay offs in Super. The set up and build up is always pretty bad when it wants you to accept new information.

[spoiler]Actually I think the thing that bothers people probably more than the radical scaling, is the lack of any real good explanation and any real build up. Honestly every ludicrous thing people complain about, would be null and void if there was good explanation for it. Let's compare say Gohan and Freeza.

Gohan's hidden power was established day 1, so it's easier to buy into his gains and logical progression since the story has built up his rage boosts, hidden potential, etc. Now with Freeza, while you do have an explanation, it's harder to take in. It's never been built up as a thing before, and is suddenly thrown right at you. So whether you like the explanation or not and think it's fine, there's a lot of people who hate that kind of writing where it just randomly throws in a trait that was never a thing. One character had built up potential the story told you early on, and let it grow as a thing. Meanwhile the other character just randomly got it as an excuse to fight in the last movie. Gohan has a set up, build up, and pay off. Freeza has a half haphazardly thrown in set up, no build up, and really only a pay off.

To fix that, I'd have had Champa and Vados be the one's who trained and helped Freeza get so strong. The show has shown training with the gods leads to good things. We also get a little preview of Beerus vs Champa with their selected fighters doing the fighting. Except here, Freeza is out for revenge, while Champa just needs to keep Beerus occupied so he can go after the Super Dragon Balls. We can have a set up that makes sense, build it up as well as Champa for the U6 Tournament, and have the pay off ROF gave us. It's a win win.

So what I think makes people so angry about Super, is it just immediately jumps right into a pay off and doesn't at all do anything to really make it feel earned or special. It's basically goes "Here's something cool, love it." That's my take on why people get upset. The lack of a real set up and build. Only 1/3 of that appears to really matter to the new series.[/spoiler]

[Ki Breaker]

Well, according to Herms:

No.17 figures that if they had continued he probably would have lost, since Goku still hadn’t been taking the fight serious, but Goku believes No.17 also had power to spare.

Have the subtitles just mislead some people? Did they fumble the manner of the conversation after the fight between Goku and 17 when translating it? Or is Herms wrong?

Is that really it?
Because that would solve a lot of unnecessary problems

[Gorou]

And that was how was discovered that android 17 could have, at the time, kill Boo and rescue the planet, becoming the true hero of the manga.

These Toei's guys continue to invent ways to mortify the original story.

[lancerman]

How does that make sense with actual android saga though? Goku admit inferiority to Piccolo after he fused with Kami. That only changes after he goes into the ROSAT.

17's probably assuming Goku was stronger than he actually was since he never got to see Goku fight. Goku says he's not sure he would have won.

The issue is because Goku's base SSJ form actually got stronger as the Android arc went on.

It was heavily implied that Goku and all other SSJ's were at a point where they could thrash 19 and 20 but couldn't do too much to 17 and 18. If Goku fought 17 at any point before the ROSAT he would likely have lost the same way Vegeta lost to 18.

By the Cell Games, Goku trained in the ROSAT and his base SSJ was mastered. He fought Perfect Cell on an even footing. That SSJ Goku would have wrecked 17 if they fought. Then add that Goku got 7 years of Other World training that made him significantly stronger and whatever he gained from absorbing SSJ God.

The other issue is that in addition to being a massive power up that supercedes SSJG and SSJ3, the SSJB form ALSO is described as being the ideal form for ki control and efficiency. So using that form has benefits beyond just being a power increase. If Goku say went up toe SSJ2 or SSJ3 to fight 17, what he's really doing is using less stable and less efficient forms added to a predefined power maginfier. Or he could jump from SSJ to SSB where he is more powerful but also has more control and can better dictate a fight. Add in that it's clearly stated that he held back, and said he would try not to kill him, we have a level of uncertainty.

Now the gap is Goku felt like 17 was above his current SSJ and the elected to go into his most powerful form where he had more ki control WHILE holding back to an unspecified degree. Just off context, the most you can factually take from that is that 17 is somewhere between current SSJ and SSJB and any actual speculation of where he is, is just that, speculation.