"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

I really need to know if Merged Zamasu defused because neither Zamasu or Goku Black are "Gods" or because neither of them are technically "Kaioshin". The wording has to be really specific or we may end up with a plothole at worst or a major continuity error at best.

[OLKv3]

They didn't defuse yet. We just have Vegetto talking trash to him telling him he'll defuse in an hour

[Basako]

I really need to know if Merged Zamasu defused because neither Zamasu or Goku Black are "Gods" or because neither of them are technically "Kaioshin". The wording has to be really specific or we may end up with a plothole at worst or a major continuity error at best.

The one we got wrote Kaioshin, but we should wait. But Zamasu has no title now, he was a Kai before, not now, and never got to be a Kaioshin. Being a god, I'm not sure if he can be called a god if he isn't any of those. Maybe not.

[Cursemark505]

I really don't understand how people can get so upset over the Potara rule, when it's nothing more than Toriyama finally giving an explanation to something he simply brushed off in the past. Goes to show how obnoxious this fanbase became.

Yup, to be honest I didn't even know he did that till pointed out..

Seriously, did you ever read the original manga?

I've been wondering why people were mad about this as well. How can you retcon something that was never given an official explanation? You can't retcon something that wasn't established fact.

It was theorised that they split somehow because of Boo's body but that was nothing more than an assumption. It never made any sense because why would Boo's body be able to make the fusion stop?

[alakazam^]

I really need to know if Merged Zamasu defused because neither Zamasu or Goku Black are "Gods" or because neither of them are technically "Kaioshin". The wording has to be really specific or we may end up with a plothole at worst or a major continuity error at best.

They haven't yet, like was pointed out. Veget specifically says Kaioushin and that Zamasu wasn't one.

[sintzu]

If vegetto is stronger than berrus, who was more or less equal to merged Zamasu, and trunks straight up cut Merged Zamasu in half..
Trunks ikari> berrus?

Trunks doesn't have that form in the manga so Vegetto being stronger here doesn't mean he is in the anime (unless they said he was).

Apparently merged Zamasu's fusion is not permanent either, because non of them was really a Kaioshin.

A moving speech of Trunks about future Bulma, how she wanted to travel to the past this time before dying.

Which means they could defuse as well right ? if that happens I can see Black lowering his guard then Trunks ripping his head off with his sword.

And she wanted to go to see Vegeta which might lead to him killing Black to avenge her or holding him down so Trunks can.

[TheMathemagician]

We had vague statements in the anime about this, but to have a somewhat definitive answer/direct comparison to Vegetto's power against Beerus' is great. Hope it's accurate.

This is as vague as ever. He says "perhaps " for a reason. Besides, this is freaking supreme Kai. His word means less than Beerus'.

Not to mention, has Shin even seen Beerus' full power?

Regardless, from what we've seen of spoilers, I don't really like the chapter from what I've seen but seeing it in full could easily change this. I am curious how similar or different it'll be from the anime since we know Mirai Zen'o is coming.

[micah007]

Toyo's art really has slumped recently. I know I'm not seeing things, his art was definitely sharper in earlier chapters. If this is a result of him trying to cover more ground in a short amount of time, then I'd rather he cover less if the art improves. The art is not bad currently it just doesn't stand out to me like it used to, which was one of the main reasons I enjoyed reading the manga. I guess all I can do is hope he's in better shape next arc.

[Khin]

A bit bummed by the lack of halo on Merged Zamasu - that part of his design was my favorite in the anime, as it makes him look very godly. I really hope that he will do something cool/memorable before he’ll defuse, because otherwise, he’ll be just as much of a disappointment and forgettable villain as Black. His utterly insane and overly narcissistic persona in the anime is what made him very memorable and distinguishing, and he also have a lot of memorable moments, so he better have some of those characteristic too!

In regards to Vegetto, he seems to be way more powerful than Merged Zamasu that I would imagine just using Super Saiyan God would probably enough to handle him. It feels a bit dumb that he used blue in the fight since it has stamina issues. At the very least, he should have used Vegeta’s red-to-blue strategy in the previous chapter. I was so sure that he’s gonna use it in this chapter that I’m very surprised that he didn’t (but maybe he did in the pages that hasn’t leaked yet, but it’s really doubtful).

Imagine Vegetto using Super Saiyan 3 against Gohan-Boo in the Boo arc - that’s what him using blue against Zamasu feels to me.

I've been wondering why people were mad about this as well. How can you retcon something that was never given an official explanation?

Actually, while the explanation in the original manga was nothing more than an assumption made by Goku, we do have official words from the guidebooks saying that Majin Boo’s bad air in his body was the reason why Vegetto defused.

[Basako]

Apparently merged Zamasu's fusion is not permanent either, because non of them was really a Kaioshin.

A moving speech of Trunks about future Bulma, how she wanted to travel to the past this time before dying.

Which means they could defuse as well right ? if that happens I can see Black lowering his guard then Trunks ripping his head off with his sword.

And she wanted to go to see Vegeta which might lead to him killing Black to avenge her or holding him down so Trunks can.

Yeah, looks like that. Which can allow Trunks enter the fight again. The last panel shows merged Zamasu heavily attacking the already injured and exhausted Goku and Vegeta. He's gonna have to man up. If MZ defuses, Black may be in a bad shape too, he should move fast. Interesting situation.

[kinisking]

Weren't the guide books a bit unreliable at times? Genuine question. I heard that was the case before but I'm not sure.

[OLKv3]

Weren't the guide books a bit unreliable at times? Genuine question. I heard that was the case before but I'm not sure.

We also have Kaioshin mentioning it in this very chapter. He brings up "So they didn't defuse because of Boo's influence?!?!" or something to that effect. So it was the official explanation for awhile.

[Lord Beerus]

For what it's worth, the retcon that Toriyama applied to the Potara has shown that even Toriyama thought the Potara earring were too much of an exploitable plot device and wanted to nerf that shit, so it couldn't be abused in future arcs. He really should have went with Gogeta.

[LightBing]

Weren't the guide books a bit unreliable at times? Genuine question. I heard that was the case before but I'm not sure.

There's some cases where they even contradict the original manga. I don't remember what specifically, unfortunately. They weren't written by Mr.Toriyama, that's by itself says a lot.
It's like if you would accept a theory by a random poster here, just because it has a Bandai/Toei/whatever stamp that makes it official.

[Lord Beerus]

For the record, here is what the guidebooks state about the special characteristics of the Potara earrings:

Special Characteristics: To use them, the two people who will merge simply each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu’s body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people’s bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.

Daizenshuu 4, pg 163, entry for Potara Earrings.

[Khin]

There used to be some arguments amongst the fans that because Vegetto defused inside Boo‘s body, then so should Gotenks when he got absorbed, so I guess that‘s something this new 1 hour limit thing cleared up.

Anyway, it’s pretty obvious that the air explanation is Toriyama’s intended reason as to why Vegetto defused at that time, and you don’t need the guidebooks or someone other than Goku for it to be valid.

Whether it’s a retcon or not, this new one hour time limit stuff is a more clear, better, and much less confusing explanation compared to the previous established one, so I prefer this one.

[nato25]

For the record, here is what the guidebooks state about the special characteristics of the Potara earrings:

Special Characteristics: To use them, the two people who will merge simply each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu’s body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people’s bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.

Daizenshuu 4, pg 163, entry for Potara Earrings.

Thanks for that Lord Beerus. I don't really have too much issue when things with the guidebooks are proven wrong as they are still supplemental material, but I really don't understand those people that say "It's not a retcon, we are finally getting an explanation to why they unfused" and worse still, people that say nothing is lost because of the retcon.

The Potara fusion being permanent for everyone is an enormous drawback, so much so that great care has to be taken when using them and them being a final resort. Yes you could just wish yourself unfused but collecting and using the Dragon Balls still have some sort of consequence and at the time of the Buu Saga, there was more important wishes that needed to be made anyway.

With these rule changes, to me, the Buu Saga is cheapened, Supreme Kai is made to look incompetent (although honestly I think he has proven many times that he is) and on a lesser scale so are Kibito and Elder Kai and the Potara lose anything that made them special or different from the fusion dance. I really don't like the change.

[kinisking]

Weren't the guide books a bit unreliable at times? Genuine question. I heard that was the case before but I'm not sure.

We also have Kaioshin mentioning it in this very chapter. He brings up "So they didn't defuse because of Boo's influence?!?!" or something to that effect. So it was the official explanation for awhile.

I mean everyone thought that's what happened in universe. No denying that, but it was always speculation even in universe so I don't mind the retcon. It's much better imo. It deletes any incentive to have Vegetto all the time. Without it, they'd have no reason not to fuse every time shit went down.

[sintzu]

I think the reason fans are upset with the potara change is because it makes fusing too easy. I think what we have now is better than "bad air" but there needs to be more to it.

One way to handle this problem is to have the 2 people be required to wait a certain amount of time (like a year) before being able to do so again. Or have the earrings be unusable again after the 2 defuse and make it very hard to come up with new ones.

[Lord Beerus]

For the record, here is what the guidebooks state about the special characteristics of the Potara earrings:

Special Characteristics: To use them, the two people who will merge simply each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu’s body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people’s bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.

Daizenshuu 4, pg 163, entry for Potara Earrings.

Thanks for that Lord Beerus. I don't really have too much issue when things with the guidebooks are proven wrong as they are still supplemental material, but I really don't understand those people that say "It's not a retcon, we are finally getting an explanation to why they unfused" and worse still, people that say nothing is lost because of the retcon.

The Potara fusion being permanent for everyone is an enormous drawback, so much so that great care has to be taken when using them and them being a final resort. Yes you could just wish yourself unfused but collecting and using the Dragon Balls still have some sort of consequence and at the time of the Buu Saga, there was more important wishes that needed to be made anyway.

With these rule changes, to me, the Buu Saga is cheapened, Supreme Kai is made to look incompetent (although honestly I think he has proven many times that he is) and on a lesser scale so are Kibito and Elder Kai and the Potara lose anything that made them special or different from the fusion dance. I really don't like the change.

To be fair, it should have never been established that the Potara were permanent to begin with. You're pretty much asking for that plot device to be retconned out when apply such an extreme rule. They should have just said that the Potara earrings were a more powerful fusion equivalent compared to the Fusion Dance and just leave it at that.