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[spoiler]
Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3
Trunks: “N-no! We’ll fight too! You’ll be killed on your own, papa! We’ll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!”
Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…”
Vegeta concludes that they are incapable of defeating Majin Buu the ordinary way (physical attacks[). Which is why he resorts to using a Ki attack. However, it still isn’t enough to completely destroy Majin Buu.
Innocent Buu > Majin Vegeta SSJ2
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”
Goku establishes that he and Vegeta were evenly matched as Super Saiyan 2’s and that he wouldn’t be able to defeat Boo himself.
Innocent Buu > Goku SSJ2
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.6-7
Goku: “Damn it! If either Vegeta or Gohan were alive, maybe we could have managed something…”
Piccolo: “…No, it probably wouldn’t matter how many people went at him…He wasn’t at that level…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P10.7
Context: after Goten and Trunks question Goku’s power and Piccolo gets mad
Goku: “It’s alright, Piccolo…I really am weak. It don’t look like I can beat Majin Boo, not even a little bit.”
Both Piccolo and Goku seem to think that Innocent Buu would defeat the like of Goku fighting alongside Gohan or Vegeta. This coincides with what we’re told above.
Innocent Buu > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2[/spoiler]
Gotenks SSJ Pre
[spoiler]
Goku tells Dende that he has never tested fusion out for himself and that the only mathematical basis that he’s using to determine the strength of the product of the sum is: ‘two weak and gentle people turned into someone substantial.’ Therefore the reliability of his estimations have to be called into question.Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Goku establishes that even if they perform fusion successfully than will be powerful enough to defeat Majin Buu.
We have:
Gotenks SSJ Pre (Hypothetical) > Innocent Buu > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2
Note: This occurred prior to fighting Majin Buu or sensing Goten and Trunks at full power.
After fighting Majin Buu, who proved to be more formidable than he originally thought, Goku finally has an opportunity to sense Goten and Trunks at full power. Goku is forced to ask Goten and Trunks whether or not they are at full power as Super Saiyans because he doesn’t know how powerful they are or how powerful that they could become. Therefore, his previous estimations about the strength of fusion is hearsay because it isn’t based on certainty.Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”
Note: Gotenks’ hypothetical strength level is no longer relevant.
Goku lies to Piccolo by telling him that he told Buu that someone stronger than himself would fight Majin Buu. The only reason why he told Piccolo (and not Buu) is because Piccolo was worried that Majin Buu would destroy the Earth before they could perform fusion. Goku assures him that this won’t happen.Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Goku lies to Piccolo again by telling him that he couldn’t have defeated Majin Buu. However, he does this because of his moral principals and duties. He wants the younger generation to defeat Majin Buu and not himself.Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”
After sensing Goten and Trunks at full power and fighting with Majin Buu for the first time, Goku changes his opinion about the effectiveness about fusion and applies the word gamble. He also isn’t as certain anymore about how they’ll win: ‘It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another.” But because of how gifted they are he believes that it’s worth taking this gamble.
Piccolo asks Goku whether or not he’ll use the Room of Spirit and Time to speed up the time that it will take to learn fusion, but Goku says that they might need it later. Goku also applies the word gamble under the reference of strength because fighting with Majin Buu and sensing the boys at full power forced him to change his opinion. Goku now believes that strength is the only relevant issue because the boys are going to learn to fuse quickly.DBZBig Vol.8, pg.357
Goku: "Sorry, but we don't know when Babidi will find us. We've gotta start now."
Piccolo: "Will you use the Room of Spirit and Time?"
Goku: "No. They can only use it for two days in their whole lives, right? They might need it later, they are gonna learn this quick.”
Chi Chi is worried that Goten will be killed but Goku reassures her that it won’t happen if they can perfect fusion. This is completely consistent with Goku’s altered viewpoints (specifically the viewpoints that we’ve demonstrated above) about fusion. However, only Goku and Piccolo know that fusion, up until this point, is still considered to be a gamble.Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Note: There is a clear distinction being made here. It cannot argue that Goku's statements (“just managing to perform fusion successfully,” and “perfecting the technique.”) are mutual in definition, they are not. Things happened that caused Goku to change his opinion on three different occasions and we have now established what those reasons were.
After appearing for the first time, Gotenks immediately believes that he is capable of defeating Majin Buu as he is.Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win
Note: Trunks previously sensed what Majin Buu was capable of on several different occasions but Gotenks seems to disregard that altogether. Therefore, Gotenk’ opinion doesn’t stem from logic whatsoever, he’s simply jumping to conclusions.
The terminology ‘haughty’ suggests that Kuririn feels that Gotenks is being arrogantly superior; having or revealing an exaggerated sense of his own importance or abilities. Therefore, Kuririn isn't comparing Gotenks to Buu based on what he senses from him, he's simply giving him the benefit of the doubt due to his own self confidence. Arrogant ignorance is impossible to defeat because blind optimism can be a dangerous form of denial.Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”
Gotenks Base Pre is quickly defeated and returns as a pummeled mess.Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
Innocent Buu > Gotenks Base Pre
Piccolo states that Gotenks has proven to be a powerful fighter but he doesn’t know what he’s capable of yet so he begins to test him out a bit.Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Gotenks falsely believes that speed and strength are mutual things, they are not. (This post will debunk the contention that they do: http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?t=3609) Because of his immense speed he believes that he can defeat Majin Buu but he never actually has an opportunity to fight against him.Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”
Herms:
In Japanese it's ambiguous whether the ki in that last sentence is supposed to be Boo's or the kids'; there's no actual possessive and you have to figure it out from context. If you look at just the one panel with Goku's line, it's pretty natural to assume it's referring to the kids' ki, but in the larger context of the scene I think it makes the most sense if it's referring to Boo, since they'd previously mentioned his ki vanishing. At any rate, since the reason they think Boo's ki vanished is because he entered the RoSaT, and since Goten and Trunks weren't fused when they went in, if Goku is talking abou their ki then he really must mean their ki as individuals and not as Gotenks.
A) Gotenks SSJ Pre was not sensed from the Kaioshin Realm.
B) Therefore Gotenks SSJ Pre is not stronger than Goku SSJ3.
Daizenshuu 7
The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.
The Daizenshuu states that ‘as a result (of his training) Gotenks surpassed Vegeta.’ This tells us that Gotenks was never stronger than even Vegeta before entering the Rosat. The entry has pictures of all of Gotenks’ forms and is directly over top a picture of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. It is obviously referencing Gotenks as a whole and not necessarily Gotenks in only his Base form. Therefore we can conclude that Majin Vegeta SSJ2 is in fact, stronger than Gotenks SSJ Pre since no evidence suggests otherwise.
As a final conclusion, we have:
Innocent Buu > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Gotenks Base Post
I have decided to include this little tidbit because it shows Goku stating that he wanted the younger generation to manage something against Boo. This is the second time that he’s used those specific words ‘manage something’, which within the Dragonball Universe, is always used to reference a weaker fighter, or fighters, being capable of defeating a stronger one. He provided Piccolo with the option of using the Rosat as a last resort because even if Gotenks didn’t quite live up to his grandiose expectations it wouldn’t of really mattered because Buu cannot sense Ki.[/spoiler]Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
Gotenks Post, Super Buu & Ultimate Gohan
[spoiler]
The Manga states that Majin Buu’s strength was divided between the respective traits of good versus evil.Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3
Narrator: “Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out…In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo…”
However, we’re told that most of the energy was transferred to the evil portion of Majin Buu.Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"
Daizenshuu 7
He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened. Afterwards he was sealed away by Bibidi, and many centuries passed. In the year Age 774, his seal was broken by Bibidi's son Babidi, and he was once again resurrected as a fearsome majin. Though he befriended Mister Satan for a time, afterwards he changed into an evil Buu. This evil Buu powered up by successively absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan. In his battle against Vegetto, the good portion inside him was cut off, and he transformed into his original form, the pure Buu. In the end, he was annihilated by a Super Genki-dama collected from the ki of all humanity. Meanwhile, the good Buu came to live with Mister Satan, and changed his name to Mister Buu.
Buff Majin Buu is the version of Majin Buu that absorbed the Grand Kaioshin, and after doing so, his battle power was only somewhat lessened. Innocent Buu and Super Buu are comprised of the same material, therefore the most logical determination is that they are the same strength. Because of that, we have:
Super Buu =/= Innocent Buu > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Gotenks Base Pre
Piccolo establishes that Super Buu’s Ki has changed and he determines that Buu has become pure evil because of that. Furthermore, Super Buu’s body has become better suited towards battle, therefore making him a more deadly opponent.Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Note: The feeling of Buu’s Ki is what changed, Piccolo doesn’t state that it increased. This is the only way Piccolo could conclude that Buu has become pure evil.
Goku also establishes that Majin Buu’s Ki has changed in how it feels.Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Super Buu is capable of sensing Ki, which gives Piccolo no time to prepare the boys for their fight against Majin Buu, this makes the situation even more dire than it was before.Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P12.2
Piccolo: “Da-damn it…! This Majin Boo is able to spot our ki!”
The Daizenshuu 7 has informed us that Innocent Buu and Super Buu are the same strength. The Manga conforms to that ideology since it shows us that both of these Majin Buu’s are comprised of the same material This leads us to the conclusion that Gotenks SSJ Pre actually stood no chance against Innocent Buu. However, because Innocent Buu could not sense Ki, Piccolo still had time to prepare. How? Goku told him that they might need the Room of Spirit and Time later. Because Buu can now sense Ki, Piccolo’s hand is forced immediately.Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”
Each statement defines the other. “His body has become better suited towards battle. His heart has become pure Evil. He can now sense Ki.”These explicit statements are implied parts of everything about him.Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”
Arguing that Buu got stronger would force you to make an assumption.
Trunks determines that Gotenks Base Post has become powerful enough to fight against Main Buu.Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”
Super Buu =/= Innocent Buu =/= Gotenks Base Post (Hypothetical) > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Gotenks Base Pre
Piccolo establishes that Gotenks Base Post has powered up and he automatically concludes that Gotenks may stand a chance. However, after seeing what Gotenks could actually do, he immediately dismisses this idea. This also renders Trunks’ previous statement invalid.Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P12.4-7
Context: Gotenks attacks Boo, to little effect
Boo: “May I attack now?”
Gotenks: “…Wa-wait a little bit…*thinking* …Tha-that’s strange…That should have effected him a decent amount, but…Hahha~~an! He’s just pretending it didn’t hurt him…”
Piccolo: “…Th-this may be hopeless…”
Gotenks Base Post fairs much worse than Majin Vegeta did. Goku also felt that the fused Super Saiyans at least had a shot, so we can now conclude that he did not surpass his previous Super Saiyan transformation.
Super Buu =/= Innocent Buu > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre
Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P5.3
Piccolo: “Oh! So he can become a Super Saiyan even after Fusion?!”
Gotenks surprises Piccolo with his new found capabilities that he achieved after entering the Room of Spirit and Time.
During his fight with Gotenks SSJ Post Super Buu finds himself having some mild difficulty with him, enough difficulty that Piccolo is slowly becoming convinced that Gotenks may actually be capable of defeating him.Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P12.7
Context: after Gotenks fights Boo a bit, and head-butts him
Piccolo: “He…he just might…possibly be able to de-defeat him…!”
Within the Viz translation, Piccolo comments on Gotenks’ technique as being the factor that bested Buu and not necessarily his strength. However, Super Buu quickly regenerate and resumes to beat up Gotenks SSJ Post Rosat, which forces Gotenks to transform into a Super Saiyan 3, but Piccolo destroys the entrance to the Room of Spirit and Time before this occurs.Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P3.9
Piccolo: “You did well, you truly did well! Quite frankly I didn’t think you’d be able to do so much.”
We now have:
Super Buu =/= Innocent Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P9.2-3, P10.3-4
Context: right after Gotenks transforms into a Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “Wh-what’s happened to yo-you…!?”
Gotenks: “Don’t ask me, I don’t know. Hehhe~~eh, that freaked you out, didn’t it!? But I’m super-duper strong!”
*he screams and opens up a big hole*
Gotenks: “I did it!”
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P11.5-6
Boo: “Huh? Did you change a little bit?”
Gotenks: “Idii---iiot! I’m not making a big fuss over just ‘a little bit’! I’ve become incredibly, incredibly, incree~~eedibly strong!”
Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”
Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!”
Piccolo is still under the belief that Innocent Buu was stronger than Goku SSJ3. Because of this, he believes that Gotenks, and only Gotenks, is on par with Majin Buu. Near the end of the battle Gotenks clearly had the upper hand, but Super Buu concludes that he was saving Super Gotenks for later. For simplicity’s sake, we’ll say that they are the same strength:
Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Super Buu =/= Innocent Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre
Note: Goku SSJ3 fared better against Buu than Gotenks SSJ Post did.
Which provides us with the final chain:Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.
Herms’ note is completely ambiguous. Previous evidence suggests that when Gotenks reverts from Super Saiyan 3 he transforms back his Base form. Trunks did state that if they used Super Saiyan 3 than their fusion would become undone and that they would revert into two people, however, this isn’t what we’re shown. Therefore, the most logical conclusion is that Piccolo is stronger than Gotenks Base Post.
Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Innocent Buu =/= Super Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Piccolo > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre[/spoiler]
Conclusion: Gotenks
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]Even since the Cell Games Goku has been looking for a new savior to protect the Earth. Originally, this was supposed to be Gohan. However, an even greater threat than Cell appeared and presumably killed Gohan --which was later shown to be false-- so Goku entrusts the Earth’s protection to the younger generation.
At first he believes that Gotenks will be superior to Majin Buu but after fighting Majin Buu for himself, and sensing Goten and Trunks at full power, he changes his viewpoints and applies the word gamble; strength is the only factor in Goku’s mind because he believes that they are going to learn to fuse quickly. He also tells Piccolo that they might need the Room of Spirit and Time after learning fusion because it alone may not be powerful enough.
Super Buu appears and forces Piccolo’s hand. The boys are immediately sent into the Rosat. There they acquire abilities that neither Piccolo nor Goku were aware of. The newly improved Super Saiyan Gotenks is able to fight against Buu so efficiently that Piccolo becomes convinced that he may actually win.
Because Goku changes his viewpoints about how powerful Gotenks would be, and because Super Buu and Innocent Buu are equal in strength, and finally, because Gotenks SSJ Post troubled him so much, the logical determination is that Gotenks SSJ Post was the product that Goku was relying on all along.
Gotenks Post & Ultimate Gohan PT II
[spoiler]
Goku is impressed with the level of power that Gohan displayed. However it still wasn’t powerful enough for Super Buu to conclude that he was outclassed, it was however, strong enough for him to begin preparing for the arrival of a stronger fighter.Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P2.5
Context: Gohan is impatient with the speed of Elder Kaioshin’s power-up
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmm…The fact that we aren’t done yet…Shows that your dormant abilities are extremely incredible.
Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P4.3
Context: after Gohan gets mad and unintentionally releases his power
Gohan: “Wh-what the…!? Is-is this seething power…mine…!?”
Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P4.9, P5.1-2
Context: after Gohan’s unintentional display of power
Goku: “…Am…amazin’…So he really wasn’t just some regular dirty old geezer?...*talking to Kaioshin* ‘Do-dormant ability’…That’s a person’s true power, that they have hidden all along…Right?”
Kaioshin: “Ye-yeah…I-I think so…”
Goku: “Mu-must be…Man, Go-Gohan…Just how the heck much power is he hidin'?...”
Note: It’s worth noting that this display of power was strong enough to be sensed from across the Universe whereas Gotenks SSJ Pre was not. Nor were the Super Saiyan 2’s, so we can conclude that Gohan at least surpassed the likes of Majin Vegeta & Goku SSJ2 in this scenario.
Because Gohan’s dormant powers were released far beyond their normal limits and because of Goku’s reactions, we can conclude that Ultimate Gohan had surpassed the likes of Majin Buu and Gotenks SSJ3 Post Rosat.Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P4.1-2
Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”
Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”
Super Buu, Goten and Trunks conclude that Ultimate Gohan proved to be even more powerful than either Buu or Gotenks SSJ3 Post Rosat.Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P1.3
Context: after Gohan beats up on Boo
Gohan: “You can’t win…”
Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P2.3-4
Boo: “Far, far, waa~~aay far away, I felt a strong power…I won’t allow anyone to have a power stronger than mine…”
Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P7.4-5
Context: after Boo disappears
Trunks: “Even if he really is still alive, it doesn’t matter! That jerk was helpless against Gohan! [Gohan] was about as strong as our Super Gotenks!”
Goten: “He was even stronger.”
Trunks: “Really? …Yeah…Just a little bit.”
Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”
Now we have:
Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Innocent Buu =/= Super Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Piccolo > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre
Despite Gohan’s power up he is unable to defeat Super Buutenks, who proves to be significantly more powerful than even Ultimate Gohan.Chapter: 500 (DBZ 306), P6.4, P7.1
Context: after Gohan and Gotenks-absorbed Boo fight a bit
Boo: “What’s the matter? You’re erasing your ki and hiding in a place like that…Are you trying to stall for time? Meaning that just from that you seem to have realized…That like this, you’re absolutely no match for me…”
Chapter: 500 (DBZ 306), P12.2
Context: after Gohan breaks out of Boo's Rapid-Fire Super Doughnuts
Boo: “Cheh…You’re pretty tenacious. ”
Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P1.2
Context: after Gohan and Boo have fought for awhile
Boo: “What’s the matter? Hang in there. You’re weakening a great deal.
We have:
Super Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Innocent Buu =/= Super Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Piccolo > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre
After absorbing Ultimte Gohan, Super Buu has powered up even more significantly than he had before, leading us to this chain:Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”
Super Buuhan > Super Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Innocent Buu =/= Super Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Piccolo > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre
Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”
Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P1.2
Context: after Vegetto outclasses Boo
Vegetto: “…Well, don’t feel too bad. Even I’m surprised. To think that I’d be able to make this big a fool out of you.”
After fusing with Vegeta, Vegetto pretty effortlessly destroys Super Buuhan as a Super Saiyan. This chain seems to be rather obvious:
Super Vegetto > Super Buuhan > Super Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Innocent Buu =/= Super Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Piccolo > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre[/spoiler]
Pure Buu & Goku SSJ3
[spoiler]
This sentences are intended to be taken jointly. Goku’s plan is to rescue everybody who was absorbed and return Majin Buu to the very first one of all. Goku doesn’t know how Super Buu formed so the incarnation that Goku is thinking of is the Innocent Majin Buu, the more docile and less dangerous incarnation of Buu. Someone they can possibly dispatch together --since the premise of fighting Super Buuhan is suicide-- like how Goku and Piccolo managed something against Raditz despite being four times weaker.Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”
Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”
If you take the highlighted part at face value than it is logical to conclude that Super Buu is simply stronger than Goku. However, if you line it up with the quotes that come afterwards, in addition to the artwork, it becomes quite clear that Goku stated that they were weaker than Buu as a means to convince Vegeta to try fusion. His childish demeanor makes this quite evident.
By this point they had already achieved their goal by rescuing everybody who was absorbed, and most importantly, they rescued Piccolo. Therefore if they fused together and immediately defeated Majin Buu than they could resurrect everybody else who was killed by him, Vegeta included. Which also tells us that it wouldn’t of mattered if Vegeta returned to the after life after fusing because he could simply be resurrected.
Lastly, the audience is still under the belief that Goku is weaker than Innocent Buu, which would simultaneously suggest that he’s weaker than Super Buu as well.
While undergoing his transformation into his Pure form, it seems that Super Buu’s Ki actually increased during the metamorphosis. However, it was implied to have increased by a small degree and because of this, I wouldn’t argue that he surpassed Ultimate Gohan by this point.Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!
We now have:
Super Vegetto > Super Buuhan > Super Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > Buff Buu > Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Innocent Buu =/= Super Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Piccolo > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
The Japanese language has no plural so we cannot determine whether it was one or both of Majin Buu’s absorption’s that lowered his power. Within the context of the Manga, we’re never actually told that Pure Buu’s Ki decreased during his metamorphosis --arguing that it did would require an assumption-- and the word that was used to describe him was completely exempt from Ki altogether and was only ever used to describe physical shrinking. Nothing implies that his Ki decreased and a wall of evidence suggests otherwise. Such as Goku’s cocky appearance. This makes it clear that he’s judging Pure Buu based upon his size only to immediately contract his words later.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/
What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character". There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.
The three branches of Ki are:
Genki - Energy
Yuuki - Bravery
Shouki - True character.
By the virtue of Akira Toriyama’s statements it would make the most sense that the Pure Majin Buu would be stronger than Buff Buu or Super Buu because he is the original Majin and he would have full access to his Shouki; aka true character. However, Super Buutenks and Super Buuhan over-rode this due to the Genki/Energy that they consumed from other fighters, which would coincidentally make them more powerful.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.
‘Chidzimu’ is never used to reference a decrease in Ki. Vegeta expresses his own confidence and believes that they can now defeat him as he is and Goku immediately agrees with him. The only logical conclusion is that Pure Buu is being judged by his size, The artwork, paired with the word that is being called into question, make this the most logical conclusion, since the alternative would require an assumption to justify.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”
Goku initially under estimated Pure Buu --like he and Vegeta previously did while fighting against Innocent Buu-- who then casually blows the planet away and proves to be more formidable than they expected.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
Goku finally establishes that he was stronger than Innocent Buu the entire time, which would simultaneously make him stronger than Super Buu as well. Furthermore, Goku "corrected" himself as he was referring to a fight that actually took place. Goku never fought Super Buu, so there would be no need to "correct" himself in the same light.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”
While inside of Super Buu’s body Goku and Vegeta sensed Majin Buu’s Ki as it decreased. Therefore, Vegeta knows how strong Super Buuhan, Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan all were. However, he still conforms to the idea that only Goku is capable of defeating Pure Buu.
This gives us the final chain of:
Super Vegetto > Super Buuhan > Super Buutenks > Goku SSJ3 > Pure Buu > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks SSJ3 Post =/= Innocent Buu =/= Super Buu > Gotenks SSJ Post > Majin Vegeta SSJ2 =/= Goku SSJ2 > Gotenks SSJ Pre > Piccolo > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre[/spoiler]
Arguments & Rebuttals
[spoiler]Argument#1: The Daizenshuu 7 entry is about Base Gotenks since it has a picture of him next to the statement.
Counter: Herms: It's got pictures of all Gotenks' forms in the entry. It's got regular Gotenks at the start, but images of the other forms, even the fat/skinny ones, are scattered around. In the Chouzenshuu 4 version at least, the get in question may be to the left of the little thumbnail of regular Gotenks, but it's directly over a big picture of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.
All that said, I really doubt the pictures factor into anything at all. By "Gotenks" they mean Gotenks in general. They most likely describe him as surpassing Vegeta during the RoSaT training because, hype aside, it's really only after that point that he actually does stuff proving he's stronger than the previous guys who fought Boo.
Argument#2: Goku didn’t try fusion out in the afterlife because it would yield a crummy result, like fusing with Hercule. Therefore, two powers can potentially fuse if the stronger one suppresses.
Counter: Goku stated that he never tested fusion out before because there was nobody on par with him in the after life. It has nothing to do with the results of fusion.
Argument#3: Akira Toriyama states that anybody can perform fusion is it all goes correctly.
Counter: During the Buu Saga Goku believes that the only way to fuse is if two powers are close in strength. Therefore Goku believes that even Ultimate Gohan is close to him in power.
Argument#4: Teen Gohan isn’t anywhere close to Goku in terms of power, rending the proposition invalid.
Counter: Goku considers Vegeta to be close enough in size and Teen Gohan to close enough in power to perform fusion. So we know that the size and power difference between the fusees can vary to this degree. But likely not much more since Piccolo wasn’t considered an option due to his height advantage and strength disadvantage.
Argument#5: Elder Kaioshin knows how much dormant power Gohan has before Gohan under goes the ritual, why wouldn’t he know about Goku’s SSJ3 transformation?
Counter: Incorrect. The Elder Kaioshin specifically stated that if someone could lift the Z Sword than he could turn them into the strongest warrior in the Universe. It has nothing to do with whether or not he can see Gohan’s limits. Which doesn’t really matter because the entire point of under going the ritual was to bring him past his limits.
Argument#6: Goku states that he could have defeated the Fat Majin Buu but he says nothing of Super Buu.
Counter: Innocent Buu and Super Buu have been shown to be comprised of the same material and are therefore the same strength. In the instance that Goku "corrected" himself, he was referring to a fight that actually took place that he could have won, no direct correction to any one statement he made. Goku never fought Super Buu, so there would be no need to "correct" himself in the same light.
Argument#7: Goku wanted to merge or fuse to fight against Super Buu but he doesn’t mind fighting Pure Buu as he is. That proves that Super Buu is stronger than Pure Buu.
Counter: Goku had no problems fusing to defeat Innocent Buu, despite knowing he could have defeated him all along. This argument is hearsay.
Argument#8: The Viz translation: "Wait! He's still stronger than either of us! He'll kill us if we go out like this! Makes it clear that Super Buu would defeat Goku and Vegeta.
Counter: Line up the quotes that come afterwards, in addition to the artwork, it becomes quite clear that Goku stated that they were weaker than Buu as a means to convince Vegeta to try fusion. His childish demeanor makes this quite evident.
Argument#9: Goku and Vegeta weren't worried about fighting Kid Boo. 'Look at our little friend!" - Vegeta, "Yeah, we can take him!" - Goku
Counter: Vegeta is clearly judging Buu based upon his size. Goku’s cocky expression show us that he’s agreeing with him. Conjecture.
Argument#10: Goku doesn’t judge people based upon their size. This occurred during the Cell Games.
Counter: Goku judged the Elder Kaioshin by his size. It’s a contradiction with Goku’s characteristic traits but it does happen.
Argument#11: Time was the gamble and not strength.
Counter: Goku stated that the boys might need the Room of Spirit and Time later. Therefore strength is the gamble and not time because Goku believes that they are going to learn to fuse quickly.
Argument#12: Goku says Gotenks will defeat Majin Buu and it is never contradicted.
Counter: Goku contradicted it when he applied the terminology gamble.
Argument#13: Goku’s final word about fusion is that it will defeat Buu.
Counter: If perfected: and up until that point, only Piccolo and Goku were aware that the strength of Gotenks became a gamble and not time. Nobody else is aware of this.
Argument#14: Gotenks Base Pre survived a fight with Innocent Buu and Majin Vegeta didn’t, therefore Gotenks is likely already stronger than Vegeta.
Counter: Hercule survived his battles with Pure Buu and Perfect Cell. Conjecture.
Argument#15: Goku could sense the power of the individuals from planet Metamora and the product of the sum and apply that to Counter: Goten and Trunks to determine how strong Gotenks would be.
Counter: Goku never sensed Goten or Trunks at full power when he concluded that Gotenks would defeat Majin Buu. He changes his opinion after he does.
Argument#16: Piccolo doesn’t doubt Gotenks’ Ki; only his speed.
Counter: Piccolo was still testing Gotenks out. He never had the opportunity to comprehend what he was capable of. Cell was shown to be incapable of understanding the depths of his own abilities without a demonstration, which is coincidentally, exactly what Piccolo asked for. However, we know that strength and speed are mutually exclusive so arguing that Piccolo’s lack of doubt is synonymous with confidence is a complete reach and pure speculation that contradicts previously established principals. If the main has been shown to be incapable of understanding what he’s capable of, how can you possibly argue that a secondary character would be any more reliable?
Argument#17: Vegeta stated that when his strength increases his speed increases as well.
Counter: Vegeta’s statement was tailored towards him until that point.
Argument#18: Why would Goku want to fuse indefinitely as opposed to using Super Saiyan 3 to defeat Majin Buu himself?
Counter: Goku doesn’t believe that he should use Super Saiyan 3 in the world of the living, not as long as he has alternative options, such as fusing with Vegeta or Gohan to defeat Innocent Buu or refraining from engaging Kid Buu directly and preferring to think of an alternate strategy. It is only when Buu forces his hand does Goku utilize Super Saiyan 3, such as when Buutenks rushed him and Kid Buu surprised him by teleporting across the cosmos.
Argument# 19: So you’re saying Goku is an idiot and would let the Earth die by letting someone weaker than himself fight Buu?
Counter: Goku stated that as long as the Dragonballs and Piccolo were fine, than everything else was inconsequential. He left the fate of the world in the hands of Gohan during the Cell Games, why wouldn’t he here? He states that he doesn’t believe that he should save the Earth and that he wishes to take a gamble with the younger generation.
Argument# 20: Nothing says that Gotenks wasn’t able to become a Super Saiyan, while fused, before entering the Rosat.
Counter: This claim suggests that Gotenks wouldn't even attempt something that could save his life, even when he's in real danger, all because Piccolo doesn't believe he has the ability to do it. That's not stupid, that's absurdly stupid. Such a claim requires evidence. However the evidence that we do have suggests the contrary.
Argument# 21: Pure Buu is the most dangerous form of Majin Buu because of how crazy and unpredictable he is, not necessarily because of his strength.
Counter: So Pure Buu is much, much weaker than Super Buu or Buff Buu but he is considered to be more dangerous? That argument is self defeating. Akira Toriyama established
Argument# 22: Goten and Trunks were in separate pods when Goku and Vegeta arrived in Buu’s body, therefore when Gotenks reverted from his SSJ3 transformation, he split back into two people.
Counter: Incorrect. This isn’t what we’re shown when Gotenks reverts from Super Saiyan 3 back into his regular form.
Argument# 23: Super Buu was also smaller than a flea, why wasn’t his power affected?
Counter: Super Buu specifically states ‘the way you guys are now,’ he says nothing about his own size and power being affected, only their own.
Argument# 24: Goku states ‘We did it!’ Did what? The entire purpose of entering Majin Buu’s body was to return him to the very first one of all and make him weak enough to fight.
Counter: Pure Buu isn’t the very first one of all in Goku’s mind. Therefore it renders this argument completely invalid. Goku is obviously talking about something else. If we take the artwork and apply it alongside Vegeta’s statement, it becomes rather clear that they are judging Majin Buu in accordance to his size. Goku has a cocky look on his face but he immediately dismisses this when Pure Buu shows him what he’s capable of.
Argument# 25: Gohan’s potential is higher than Goku’s. Ultimate Gohan should be stronger by default.
Counter: Not necessarily. Gohan had his potential released on Namek but he was still significantly weaker than Goku during that same time period. Within the context of the story this isn’t always a principal and it isn’t always consistent.
Argument# 26: Super Buu was happy that Goku and Vegeta could no longer merge, therefore he knew full well, having fought Goku SSJ3 before, that they could not defeat him.
Counter: Super Buu is also aware that they became too small to damage him.
Argument# 27: Goku’s facial expression while standing in front of Super Buu shows that he’s pretty nervous, therefore he’s intimidated of Super Buu because Super Buu is stronger.
Counter: What? Goku looks pissed off that he’s forced to fight against Super Buu.
Argument# 28: Goku was smaller than a flea and useless, how would a flea sized Gogeta be any different?
Counter: Goku stated that if we could go outside and merge than this kind of guy would be an easy opponent. Goku is obviously referring the Potara fusion, which has been shown --and stated by the Daizenshuu-- to not be affected by changes in size or mass. However, he makes no mention about the Metamoran, which was only considered BEFORE Goku realized that their strength decreased in proportion to their size.[/spoiler]
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[/spoiler]