"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

What happened to the days where everyone just enjoyed a series regardless of "inconsistencies?"
Back in the day, Bulma could ram her time machine into fused Zamasu; injuring him; we'd be "THAT'S WHAT'S UP!"!"

[OLKv3]

What happened to the days where everyone just enjoyed a series regardless of "inconsistencies?"
Back in the day, Bulma could ram her time machine into fused Zamasu; injuring him; we'd be "THAT'S WHAT'S UP!"!"

Never existed. That's why the "Who is stronger SSJ3 Goku or Gohan" and "Kid Buu vs Super Buu" arguments still exist

Toei just made it even crazier by having everyone be on equal footing until they're not, then they are again. And since so many people critique that part of the anime, you have defensive anime fans over critiquing the manga, and then you have people overhyping the manga to critique the anime, and it's a war that'll never end

[Miracles]

What happened to the days where everyone just enjoyed a series regardless of "inconsistencies?"
Back in the day, Bulma could ram her time machine into fused Zamasu; injuring him; we'd be "THAT'S WHAT'S UP!"!"

Never existed. That's why the "Who is stronger SSJ3 Goku or Gohan" and "Kid Buu vs Super Buu" arguments still exist

Toei just made it even crazier by having everyone be on equal footing until they're not, then they are again. And since so many people critique that part of the anime, you have defensive anime fans over critiquing the manga, and then you have people overhyping the manga to critique the anime, and it's a war that'll never end

Enjoyment; regardless of what happened, existed....Outside the internet.

[OLKv3]

What happened to the days where everyone just enjoyed a series regardless of "inconsistencies?"
Back in the day, Bulma could ram her time machine into fused Zamasu; injuring him; we'd be "THAT'S WHAT'S UP!"!"

Never existed. That's why the "Who is stronger SSJ3 Goku or Gohan" and "Kid Buu vs Super Buu" arguments still exist

Toei just made it even crazier by having everyone be on equal footing until they're not, then they are again. And since so many people critique that part of the anime, you have defensive anime fans over critiquing the manga, and then you have people overhyping the manga to critique the anime, and it's a war that'll never end

Enjoyment regardless of what happened existed....Outside the internet.

It happened outside of the internet too
To clarify, just because people question consistency doesn't mean they all hate the show. Debating this stuff is one of the main things of being a DB fan

[TheSaiyanGod]

Future Zamasu wasn't vastly inferior to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He was able to trade hands and pushed Goku when they first met. So even if he was the 'weakest link', his power is still within range of Goku and Vegeta. Which is what I mean when I said 'on par' as in there isn't a vast power different. Future Zamasu is like Super Saiyan Goku against Perfect Cell and not so much Super Saiyan 2 Gohan against Perfect Cell.

Well, I doubt it. I think there's some vague merit in the assertion, since - if anything - it's a byproduct of TOEI's awful rendition of the fights in which everyone can exchange blows with everyone, but it's safe to say that Zamas is not intended to be drastically different than his present counterpart. Also, I recall that all of his feats were more or less stated to be a result of his immortality. Goku is pretty much able to clobber him both in the manga and the anime.

It wasn't awful rendered at all. Future Zamasu was obviously supposed to be on the level of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, especially given Goku's expression when he fought him. The reason why he kept getting tag so easily was because his defense was terrible because he was an immortal. Both Future Trunks and Goku pointed this out.

Goku didn't clobber Future Zamasu until he got his rage boost and he returned to the past for the third time. Before then, Future Zamasu was giving him trouble. And immortality doesn't make you stronger. If he was only as strong as Present Zamasu, Goku would have wiped the floor with him completely.

I'm not saying this just because people do not like the manga. By the comments of some, it becomes apparent that it is a haterism

Trunks trained all the days of his life, for 10 years as if it depended on it. Without counting 1 year fighting Black and suffering successive Zenkais. Do you have an idea of ​​what it is? At the same time they complain of him not doing anything, Complain about the strength he has achieved on his own, and do not even talk about
The SSJ Rage that had no explanation.

It was implied in Chapter 22 that SSG is a form that needs to be acquired to get the SSB. If it is a form that precedes it, it is not something apart, it is something that needs to come before. And if SSB Is a combination of the powers of the SSG and the SSJ, so you need the power of the SSG, and this is only possible by becoming Super Saiyan God.
It was never said that this form could only be acquired by ritual. It was just the quickest way to do that.

The only questionable thing is the fact that Vegeta SSJ2 fights Black SSJ2.
We may consider that Trunks suffered a great Zenkai after returning to the past, or that Vegeta got stronger after training in the gravity room. But I agree that this is strange, but I found even stranger Black to withstand the blows of vegeta SSB in the base form, Which does not make much sense at all

Hatedom is strong word. Most of the comments happened because fans tend to downplay the manga's flaws, especially early in its run.

Super Saiyan forms do not get stronger. They are set multipliers. Super Saiyan 2 is a 2x multiplier from Super Saiyan. If Toyo wanted to show that Trunks has gotten stronger, should have made Trunks all around stronger from his base form. Not give him a Super Saiyan 2 that is stronger than any other for no reason. Especially since it raises the question of why Goku, the person who invented mastered Super Saiyan never discovered this. Super Saiyan Rage was a new transformation caused by anger, hence it's name. So it's really no different from the original Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2.

That isn't true since Vegeta had Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, while he clearly didn't have Super Saiyan God before he trained for a year. Also, Super Saiyan God is something apart from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It isn't just Super Saiyan God 2. It is its own unique form, something that was said in Resurrection 'F' movie.

Vegeta wasn't going all out since he caught Super Saiyan Rose Black's attack and punched him several times.

Trunks had not released all of his power yet, that was clear. It was with everything from the moment that Goku used the SSJ3, and so by increasing his Ki, he was almost equal to that of Goku in SSJ3.
He himself said that he did not stick to the power that the transformations gave, he probably tried to always improve his base form, or to get used to the SSJ and SSJ2, increasing his power more easily.

The base of the SSGSS is the SSG. This is why the name is Super Saiyan, God Super Saiyan.
In the game DB fusions, it is also given to understand that SSGSS is a form of someone who acquired the SSG and turned into SSB, being practically a pre requisite.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He did not find SSG training for 1 year on RoSaT, he just said he needed that way to beat Black. He spent less energy, and with the strategy he created it would be easier to beat Black

[LowRyder2005]

Like I said, I personally doubt it was the idea behind the fight, much less the "obvious implication". To me it's like SS2 Trunks being able to match Goku Black, it's TOEI filling the gaps of a basic concept with some smoke and mirrors (the super-weak Zamas can't be killed by SSB Goku because the former's immortal = Zamas can randomly put a fight).
Perhaps it's because the manga is pretty clear in defining Zamas' level and in this case I don't see why they should differ this match since, basically, nothing changes in respect to the story.

To each his own, though. Good for you if you found it a good, I guess.

You are dismissing what the anime have shown and even told us as 'personally doubt it was the idea behind the fight'. Unless you have more proof than your personal account, the anime clearly showed us that Future Zamasu was within the power range of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. And Super Saiyan 2 Trunks didn't match Black. He caught him off-guard and kicked him into the building. After than, Trunks never touched Black again until he got his Rage form. He didn't touched Future Zamasu in round 2, where he got his butt kicked.

There was no smoke and mirrors. Immortality doesn't magically make you stronger. Future Zamasu was able to thrown down with Goku and that was his own skill. Goku didn't even hit Future Zamasu and he only learned he was an immortal after Trunks stabbed him.

Manga Future Zamasu is clearly weaker than the anime version, just like Black. Future Zamasu in the manga did nothing against Goku, while anime Future Zamasu pushed Goku back.

It did change the story. In the anime, Black and Future Zamaus, and then Merged Zamasu looked like actual threats. In the manga version of these characters are jokes who only got ahead because of luck.

First off, I think you seriously need to curb down the defensiveness.

Secondly, I thought it was pretty clear since the beginning that I was instating a personal opinion of mine, so I don't think I need to corroborate it with anything else. I also don't believe that acting passive-aggressive and this undertone about your impressions being more "correct" than mine can help discussions on what someone enjoys/dislikes. Yeah, I got it since three posts (or so) ago that according to you the anime meant to portray Zamas as in leagues with SSBs, that the manga lacked something in that regard and yadda yadda yadda, and I've more or less grasped your motivations. I merely added that I was not convinced for one or two reasons, don't know what else needs to be said.

[HeroR]

He's wrong though because Future Zamasu got clobbered by everyone, he won one quick exchange with Goku and then got bodied by SSJ2 Trunks. Every episode after that had him being an annoyance to the heroes while they tried to focus on Black. Zamasu was always treated as weaker than everyone else

You are ignoring that both Trunks and Goku said that Future Zamasu has a bad habit of lower his guard because he's an immortal. And if Future Zamasu was so weak, how did he hold both Goku and Trunks in place to allow Black to wreck them with a Kamehameha? Future Zamasu was never treated as vastly weaker than everyone else.

Trunks had not released all of his power yet, that was clear. It was with everything from the moment that Goku used the SSJ3, and so by increasing his Ki, he was almost equal to that of Goku in SSJ3.
He himself said that he did not stick to the power that the transformations gave, he probably tried to always improve his base form, or to get used to the SSJ and SSJ2, increasing his power more easily.

The base of the SSGSS is the SSG. This is why the name is Super Saiyan, God Super Saiyan.
In the game DB fusions, it is also given to understand that SSGSS is a form of someone who acquired the SSG and turned into SSB, being practically a pre requisite.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He did not find SSG training for 1 year on RoSaT, he just said he needed that way to beat Black. He spent less energy, and with the strategy he created it would be easier to beat Black

That isn't how that work since the manga said that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks' was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Nothing like that was said about his previous forms. And getting used to Super Saiyan doesn't increase the multiplier. Even mastered Super Saiyan is the same multiplier as a normal Super Saiyan. It is just more energy efficient.

The base of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't Super Saiyan God. The only similarities between the two is that they are both god forms. And why are using a video game, especially Fusions, to prove your point? The video game has nothing to do with Super and they tend to do whatever they want.

Again, nothing hinted that Vegeta had Super Saiyan God before he went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and it was never stated that Super Saiyan God is require for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

First off, I think you seriously need to curb down the defensiveness.

Secondly, I thought it was pretty clear since the beginning that I was instating a personal opinion of mine, so I don't think I need to corroborate it with anything else. I also don't believe that acting passive-aggressive and this undertone about your impressions being more "correct" than mine can help discussions on what someone enjoys/dislikes. Yeah, I got it since three posts (or so) ago that according to you the anime meant to portray Zamas as in leagues with SSBs, that the manga lacked something in that regard and yadda yadda yadda, and I've more or less grasped your motivations. I merely added that I was not convinced for one or two reasons, don't know what else needs to be said.

I find it amusing that people who defend the manga always tell people who have issues with it that they're being defensive.

I state what happened in the show and what the show actually said, not my personal opinion about what I think happened. Future Zamasu traded blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and even knocked him down at one point. Both Goku and Trunks note that Future Zamasu lowers his guard all the time because he's an immortal. Goku gets on Future Zamasu about this, to which Future Zamasu scoffs at him. Black also doesn't want immortality since out of fear of becoming rusty.

So, the anime is telling us is that while Future Zamasu is strong, he had become depended on his immortality and drops his guard all the time, allowing people to hit him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

He's wrong though because Future Zamasu got clobbered by everyone, he won one quick exchange with Goku and then got bodied by SSJ2 Trunks. Every episode after that had him being an annoyance to the heroes while they tried to focus on Black. Zamasu was always treated as weaker than everyone else

You are ignoring that both Trunks and Goku said that Future Zamasu has a bad habit of lower his guard because he's an immortal. And if Future Zamasu was so weak, how did he hold both Goku and Trunks in place to allow Black to wreck them with a Kamehameha? Future Zamasu was never treated as vastly weaker than everyone else.

Trunks had not released all of his power yet, that was clear. It was with everything from the moment that Goku used the SSJ3, and so by increasing his Ki, he was almost equal to that of Goku in SSJ3.
He himself said that he did not stick to the power that the transformations gave, he probably tried to always improve his base form, or to get used to the SSJ and SSJ2, increasing his power more easily.

The base of the SSGSS is the SSG. This is why the name is Super Saiyan, God Super Saiyan.
In the game DB fusions, it is also given to understand that SSGSS is a form of someone who acquired the SSG and turned into SSB, being practically a pre requisite.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He did not find SSG training for 1 year on RoSaT, he just said he needed that way to beat Black. He spent less energy, and with the strategy he created it would be easier to beat Black

That isn't how that work since the manga said that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks' was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Nothing like that was said about his previous forms. And getting used to Super Saiyan doesn't increase the multiplier. Even mastered Super Saiyan is the same multiplier as a normal Super Saiyan. It is just more energy efficient.

The base of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't Super Saiyan God. The only similarities between the two is that they are both god forms. And why are using a video game, especially Fusions, to prove your point? The video game has nothing to do with Super and they tend to do whatever they want.

Again, nothing hinted that Vegeta had Super Saiyan God before he went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and it was never stated that Super Saiyan God is require for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

First off, I think you seriously need to curb down the defensiveness.

Secondly, I thought it was pretty clear since the beginning that I was instating a personal opinion of mine, so I don't think I need to corroborate it with anything else. I also don't believe that acting passive-aggressive and this undertone about your impressions being more "correct" than mine can help discussions on what someone enjoys/dislikes. Yeah, I got it since three posts (or so) ago that according to you the anime meant to portray Zamas as in leagues with SSBs, that the manga lacked something in that regard and yadda yadda yadda, and I've more or less grasped your motivations. I merely added that I was not convinced for one or two reasons, don't know what else needs to be said.

I find it amusing that people who defend the manga always tell people who have issues with it that they're being defensive?

I state what happened in the show and what the show actually said, not personal opinion about what I think happened.

I never said that getting used to the transformation increases the multiplier. And yes with that it is possible to increase strength without overloading both the body, since you will control energy expenditure, and may have been the reason why Trunks get so strong already Who himself said that he did not hold the force that the transformations offered.

I also NEVER said that the SSG is the '' base form '' and SSGSS is the '' Super Saiyan of the Super Saiyan of God ''(Even if the name makes this clear),but rather that the ESSENCE of the SSB is the SSG.
To form the SSB is used the power of the SSG, so they NEED to have that power. What is the best way to get the power of the transformation? Getting the same transformation.

If SSG is a form that ANTEECEDE the SSB, then how would it not be pre-requisite? Is the same thing as saying that SSJ precedes SSJ2, but even then it is not necessary to have SSJ to become SSJ2.
If it comes before SSB, it is because it is a form that must be achieved before SSB.
And also has the fact that SSB use the power of SSG, as I said it is necessary to have the SSG transformation to have the power of SSG

[HeroR]

I never said that getting used to the transformation increases the multiplier. And yes with that it is possible to increase strength without overloading both the body, since you will control energy expenditure, and may have been the reason why Trunks get so strong already Who himself said that he did not hold the force that the transformations offered.

I also NEVER said that the SSG is the '' base form '' and SSGSS is the '' Super Saiyan of the Super Saiyan of God ''(Even if the name makes this clear),but rather that the ESSENCE of the SSB is the SSG.
To form the SSB is used the power of the SSG, so they NEED to have that power. What is the best way to get the power of the transformation? Getting the same transformation.

If SSG is a form that ANTEECEDE the SSB, then how would it not be pre-requisite? Is the same thing as saying that SSJ precedes SSJ2, but even then it is not necessary to have SSJ to become SSJ2.
If it comes before SSB, it is because it is a form that must be achieved before SSB.
And also has the fact that SSB use the power of SSG, as I said it is necessary to have the SSG transformation to have the power of SSG

It isn't the essence, that is my point. You don't need Super Saiyan God to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. You just need god ki and combine it with Super Saiyan to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. No Super Saiyan God is part of it, at all. Which is how Vegeta's skipped Super Saiyan God.

It isn't. It Super Saiyan God was said Super Saiyan God anteecede Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, Super Saiyan 2 is just an extension of Super Saiyan as Toriyama puts it. Not an actual new form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is not an extension of Super Saiyan God, it is its own transformation.

And again, that wasn't said at all. You just need god ki to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.

[LowRyder2005]

He's wrong though because Future Zamasu got clobbered by everyone, he won one quick exchange with Goku and then got bodied by SSJ2 Trunks. Every episode after that had him being an annoyance to the heroes while they tried to focus on Black. Zamasu was always treated as weaker than everyone else

You are ignoring that both Trunks and Goku said that Future Zamasu has a bad habit of lower his guard because he's an immortal. And if Future Zamasu was so weak, how did he hold both Goku and Trunks in place to allow Black to wreck them with a Kamehameha? Future Zamasu was never treated as vastly weaker than everyone else.

Trunks had not released all of his power yet, that was clear. It was with everything from the moment that Goku used the SSJ3, and so by increasing his Ki, he was almost equal to that of Goku in SSJ3.
He himself said that he did not stick to the power that the transformations gave, he probably tried to always improve his base form, or to get used to the SSJ and SSJ2, increasing his power more easily.

The base of the SSGSS is the SSG. This is why the name is Super Saiyan, God Super Saiyan.
In the game DB fusions, it is also given to understand that SSGSS is a form of someone who acquired the SSG and turned into SSB, being practically a pre requisite.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He did not find SSG training for 1 year on RoSaT, he just said he needed that way to beat Black. He spent less energy, and with the strategy he created it would be easier to beat Black

That isn't how that work since the manga said that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks' was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Nothing like that was said about his previous forms. And getting used to Super Saiyan doesn't increase the multiplier. Even mastered Super Saiyan is the same multiplier as a normal Super Saiyan. It is just more energy efficient.

The base of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't Super Saiyan God. The only similarities between the two is that they are both god forms. And why are using a video game, especially Fusions, to prove your point? The video game has nothing to do with Super and they tend to do whatever they want.

Again, nothing hinted that Vegeta had Super Saiyan God before he went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and it was never stated that Super Saiyan God is require for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

First off, I think you seriously need to curb down the defensiveness.

Secondly, I thought it was pretty clear since the beginning that I was instating a personal opinion of mine, so I don't think I need to corroborate it with anything else. I also don't believe that acting passive-aggressive and this undertone about your impressions being more "correct" than mine can help discussions on what someone enjoys/dislikes. Yeah, I got it since three posts (or so) ago that according to you the anime meant to portray Zamas as in leagues with SSBs, that the manga lacked something in that regard and yadda yadda yadda, and I've more or less grasped your motivations. I merely added that I was not convinced for one or two reasons, don't know what else needs to be said.

I find it amusing that people who defend the manga always tell people who have issues with it that they're being defensive?

I state what happened in the show and what the show actually said, not personal opinion about what I think happened.

The only thing that personally amuses me here is, well, that I haven't even "defended" the manga in the proper sense since the beginning of your quibbling. I had merely given my opinion on the chapter before you started this overall dubious "rectification" of personal impressions on some character's intended power. Pretty convenient, anyway, that I must be a "manga apologist" of the sort only because I happen not to share the sentiment with someone who evidently preferred the anime.
Applying ad hoc labels to those who do not agree with you and keeping a streak of holier-than-thou attitude in multiple posts (because, like, Black/Zamas being less of a threat in the manga is totally matter-of-fact and not a humble opinion) on the other hand is nothing to sneeze at, though. Needless to say they tend to stifle any pleasant discussion, but you're obviously very much free to act the way you wish. Just try to keep them away from me, kindly. As far as food for thought is concerned, I like balanced diets.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I never said that getting used to the transformation increases the multiplier. And yes with that it is possible to increase strength without overloading both the body, since you will control energy expenditure, and may have been the reason why Trunks get so strong already Who himself said that he did not hold the force that the transformations offered.

I also NEVER said that the SSG is the '' base form '' and SSGSS is the '' Super Saiyan of the Super Saiyan of God ''(Even if the name makes this clear),but rather that the ESSENCE of the SSB is the SSG.
To form the SSB is used the power of the SSG, so they NEED to have that power. What is the best way to get the power of the transformation? Getting the same transformation.

If SSG is a form that ANTEECEDE the SSB, then how would it not be pre-requisite? Is the same thing as saying that SSJ precedes SSJ2, but even then it is not necessary to have SSJ to become SSJ2.
If it comes before SSB, it is because it is a form that must be achieved before SSB.
And also has the fact that SSB use the power of SSG, as I said it is necessary to have the SSG transformation to have the power of SSG

It isn't the essence, that is my point. You don't need Super Saiyan God to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. You just need god ki and combine it with Super Saiyan to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. No Super Saiyan God is part of it, at all. Which is how Vegeta's skipped Super Saiyan God.

It isn't. It Super Saiyan God was said Super Saiyan God anteecede Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, Super Saiyan 2 is just an extension of Super Saiyan as Toriyama puts it. Not an actual new form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is not an extension of Super Saiyan God, it is its own transformation.

And again, that wasn't said at all. You just need god ki to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.

You are taking into account the anime, where it shows that Goku and Vegeta gets the God Ki just by training with Whis, and consequently they get the SSGSS.
The manga is different from the anime, at no time is shown this kind of training is shown by Vegeta.

In RoF, which had a script by Toriyama, Goku himself says that the SSB is when a Saiyajin acquires the SSG POWER and turns into SSJ. In all the scans of the movie where he talked about the transformation, that was said.

It makes no difference that SSJ2 is just a variation of SSJ, it does not change the fact that it is necessary to have SSJ to get SSJ2, it is a form that precedes it.
By saying that the SSG precedes the SSB, it makes clear that it is a pre-requisite form, it is a form that comes before, which needs to be obtained sooner.
Regardless of the SSB being a transformation to part of the SSG, the fact is that it is necessary to get the power of the Super Saiyajin God, even in games this is indicated.
It is not for nothing that the initial name of the form was Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, that already makes it very clear

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Goku himself says that the SSB is when a Saiyajin acquires the SSG POWER and turns into SSJ. In all the scans of the movie where he talked about the transformation, that was said.

Actually, all that SSB was said to be is " A Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God". Much more vague than you're painting it as.

[OLKv3]

People assumed Vegeta got SSG in RoF because of the line at the end of BoG where he says "I get to become SSG next time"
DBS nipped that in the bud by having Vegeta turn down Goku's offer
The manga completely removed the entire scene to begin with, and just skipped to them being SSB

While it's likely that Vegeta always had SSG in the manga, it's never been actually stated that he did. The most annoying thing about Toyo is that he makes explanations for everything, everything, except for how Goku and Vegeta have mastered SSG to the point where they can turn it on and off at will.

[Kanassa]

While it's likely that Vegeta always had SSG in the manga, it's never been actually stated that he did. The most annoying thing about Toyo is that he makes explanations for everything, everything, except for how Goku and Vegeta have mastered SSG to the point where they can turn it on and off at will.

I think it's possible that Toyo didn't actually think up Vegeta having SSG UNTIL this arc, because it causes problems with the U6 arc if Vegeta did have it beforehand.

[mfwlegend3]

Viz translated Chapter 23.

https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... 669?read=1

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You can tell what's in Toriyama's scripts, from what's similar between the anime and manga, and what they both build up towards. Vegetto Blue, Goku using a Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu, fusion wearing off, etc

We can't tell for sure if something comes from Toriyama, even if that something is in both manga & anime, since we are told that Toei & Toyotaro get influenced by each other. For example, the return of the golden Super Saiyan forms for Goku & Vegeta doesn't seem to come from Toriyama.

[Boo Machine]

If they were on the same level as Zamasu, then I would totally be behind them in their decision of not fusing. But not only them refusing but deciding to take turns is just silly.

Vegeta being the one to initiate the fusion because of Bulma was nice. Though I find it a little funny that this almost mirrors the same situation they were in when they needed to fuse against Buu. Talk about the family to convince Vegeta.

I'm Still nitpicking the first shot of Vegito. I don't like the first reveals of forms or characters just being Full body, front view, with character standing there, arms firmly at the sides.

Shame we didn't get a sword fight. That would have been fun. In fact Zamasu fighting back at all would have been fun.

I've already said this but I thought the Zamasu throwing Blocks at Goku was fine. He was toying with him. Continuing to use it as a counter to Vegitos big finisher is just goofy to me.

This is where my interest sky rockets. No humans for spirit sword, no super saiyan rage, and Zamasu is also on a time limit. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. Maybe we'll get a final confrontation with Black like I always wanted. Assuming that the time limit expires in the next chapter. I wonder if summoning the hardest metal known in the universe multiple times takes up a lot of energy.

[HeroR]

The only thing that personally amuses me here is, well, that I haven't even "defended" the manga in the proper sense since the beginning of your quibbling. I had merely given my opinion on the chapter before you started this overall dubious "rectification" of personal impressions on some character's intended power. Pretty convenient, anyway, that I must be a "manga apologist" of the sort only because I happen not to share the sentiment with someone who evidently preferred the anime.
Applying ad hoc labels to those who do not agree with you and keeping a streak of holier-than-thou attitude in multiple posts (because, like, Black/Zamas being less of a threat in the manga is totally matter-of-fact and not a humble opinion) on the other hand is nothing to sneeze at, though. Needless to say they tend to stifle any pleasant discussion, but you're obviously very much free to act the way you wish. Just try to keep them away from me, kindly. As far as food for thought is concerned, I like balanced diets.

Never called you a manga apologist. I said I find it amusing that everything I am critical of the manga I always get 'you're being to defensive'. I wished I was paid every time I heard that.

I don't really care if you find manga Merged Zamasu better. What you liked or dislike is none of my concern. My problem was that you tried to low-ball Future Zamasu by saying that he wasn't on the level of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku because he jobbed to Future Trunks, despite the anime making it clear that he was on that level and he got tagged all the time because he was an immortal and didn't keep his defense up. If you can't see that after the anime straight up tells you, there isn't much to say.

You are taking into account the anime, where it shows that Goku and Vegeta gets the God Ki just by training with Whis, and consequently they get the SSGSS.
The manga is different from the anime, at no time is shown this kind of training is shown by Vegeta.

In RoF, which had a script by Toriyama, Goku himself says that the SSB is when a Saiyajin acquires the SSG POWER and turns into SSJ. In all the scans of the movie where he talked about the transformation, that was said.

It makes no difference that SSJ2 is just a variation of SSJ, it does not change the fact that it is necessary to have SSJ to get SSJ2, it is a form that precedes it.
By saying that the SSG precedes the SSB, it makes clear that it is a pre-requisite form, it is a form that comes before, which needs to be obtained sooner.
Regardless of the SSB being a transformation to part of the SSG, the fact is that it is necessary to get the power of the Super Saiyajin God, even in games this is indicated.
It is not for nothing that the initial name of the form was Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, that already makes it very clear

The same training was shown in the manga, we see it in the fifth chapter of the manga. The only real different is that Goku didn't lose his Super Saiyan God form. It was never implied that Vegeta ever got Super Saiyan God until he shows it out of nowhere with Black during their second match. If the manga wants us to believe that Vegeta always had it, it did a poor job.

He said in the movie that he had a taste of something of something called Super Saiyan God and how he can tap into that power. When Vegeta transformed, he stated that he now had the power of the god. Never once was it said that Super Saiyan God was needed for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Only that god ki and understanding how to used it was required. This is highlighted further when Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore.

It's only necessary because all Super Saiyan 2 is is an extension of Super Saiyan. It isn't it own form, it is just Super Saiyan Plus. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't Super Saiyan God Plus. It is from its own branch with the only relation being that they both used god ki. You don't need Super Saiyan God to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since even Toriyama said that it wasn't needed anymore once Goku took it in.

[TKA]

Cool chapter. The manga devoting so much time to explaining the Potara made the retcon more palatable. The anime just gave that information offhandedly, which made it harder to stomach.

Merged Zamasu utilizing Katchin cubes is kinda silly and really unimaginative when compared to the techniques he got in the other telling of the story.

Silly? Yes. Unimaginative? Hardly.

You know what's unimaginative? A villain who just shoots energy blasts. That's all Merged Zamasu did in the anime. Cell had the novelty of his moves being from the main cast. Frieza had the novelty of being absurdly powerful (at the time). Buu had a myriad of techniques due to his physiology. Zamasu didn't have any gimmicks and just threw generic energy blasts. What's really happening here is you liked the visuals and perhaps the music. Him throwing Katchin and creating it from thin air is a much more imaginative use of his abilities. It shows both the Kai (ability to create) and Saiyan (the ki to power his attacks) halves of him.

Personal note, I didn't like Trunks' speech since Vegeta at this point shouldn't need one. He should be fighting for his son's world and his safety, not his ego.

That wasn't the point of the speech. Trunks was explaining to Vegeta why Trunks wants to fight. He wasn't giving Vegeta a motivational pep-talk. Vegeta, then seeing that his son was going to endanger his life like that, just decided it's better to end this ASAP.

[HeroR]

Cool chapter. The manga devoting so much time to explaining the Potara made the retcon more palatable. The anime just gave that information offhandedly, which made it harder to stomach.

Merged Zamasu utilizing Katchin cubes is kinda silly and really unimaginative when compared to the techniques he got in the other telling of the story.

Silly? Yes. Unimaginative? Hardly.

You know what's unimaginative? A villain who just shoots energy blasts. That's all Merged Zamasu did in the anime. Cell had the novelty of his moves being from the main cast. Frieza had the novelty of being absurdly powerful (at the time). Buu had a myriad of techniques due to his physiology. Zamasu didn't have any gimmicks and just threw generic energy blasts. What's really happening here is you liked the visuals and perhaps the music. Him throwing Katchin and creating it from thin air is a much more imaginative use of his abilities. It shows both the Kai (ability to create) and Saiyan (the ki to power his attacks) halves of him.

Personal note, I didn't like Trunks' speech since Vegeta at this point shouldn't need one. He should be fighting for his son's world and his safety, not his ego.

That wasn't the point of the speech. Trunks was explaining to Vegeta why Trunks wants to fight. He wasn't giving Vegeta a motivational pep-talk. Vegeta, then seeing that his son was going to endanger his life like that, just decided it's better to end this ASAP.

That still should have been unneeded since Trunks been fighting this whole time against impossible odds to the point that he acted as live bait as Goku and Vegeta rushed to the past. In fact, it makes Vegeta look kinda stupid.

Also, generic energy blast? You can criticized Merged Zamasu in the anime, but being genetic isn't one of them. He made an energy beast that looks straight out of Naruto, had spears that exploded on the ground, a halo, and rain light from the sky. Calling it 'generic energy blasts' is like calling the Final Flash just another energy attack.

You can tell what's in Toriyama's scripts, from what's similar between the anime and manga, and what they both build up towards. Vegetto Blue, Goku using a Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu, fusion wearing off, etc

We can't tell for sure if something comes from Toriyama, even if that something is in both manga & anime, since we are told that Toei & Toyotaro get influenced by each other. For example, the return of the golden Super Saiyan forms for Goku & Vegeta doesn't seem to come from Toriyama.

What are you basing that on?