"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

The manga version of Vegetto vs Zamasu would feel better and more gratifying in the anime. The anime's version of Vegetto vs Zamasu would feel better and more gratifying in the manga. Oh well

How so?

[GodVegetto91]

This sucks. How am i supposed to read the manga if it's region blocked!?

[Basako]

What are you guys predictions for the next chapter?

I'm gonna do some, with some wishfull thinking:

- MZ's last attack heavily injures Goku and Vegeta.
- Gowasu explains Vegetto's inmense power reduced time.
- He is going to finish them, but he defuses too.
- Everyone is in bad shape, except Zamasu, who is immortal.
- Black attacks Goku and Vegeta, he is going to kill them.
- Trunks transforms into SSB and steps in.
- He kills Black with an amazing technique, Goku and Vegeta contribute.
- Then he gets Zamasu, he traps him with a ki donut.
- They debate what to do with him and Goku calls future Zeno.
- They tell him what he has done and he erases him.
- Goku asks him if he wants to meet a friend.
- About the Earth, they go to New Namek with the instant transmision.
- They ask three wishes: to resurrect all killed by Black and Zamasu, to resurrect Shin and Kibito who died against Dabra and whatever. They try to resurrect the friends of the past but Porunga says too much time has passed and that he can't do it.
- They take Dende with them to become the new Kami of Earth. Adult Dende, please.
- So they meet future Bulma, all very emotional and they leave.
- Goku brings future Zeno to present Zeno. The end.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The only thing that personally amuses me here is, well, that I haven't even "defended" the manga in the proper sense since the beginning of your quibbling. I had merely given my opinion on the chapter before you started this overall dubious "rectification" of personal impressions on some character's intended power. Pretty convenient, anyway, that I must be a "manga apologist" of the sort only because I happen not to share the sentiment with someone who evidently preferred the anime.
Applying ad hoc labels to those who do not agree with you and keeping a streak of holier-than-thou attitude in multiple posts (because, like, Black/Zamas being less of a threat in the manga is totally matter-of-fact and not a humble opinion) on the other hand is nothing to sneeze at, though. Needless to say they tend to stifle any pleasant discussion, but you're obviously very much free to act the way you wish. Just try to keep them away from me, kindly. As far as food for thought is concerned, I like balanced diets.

Never called you a manga apologist. I said I find it amusing that everything I am critical of the manga I always get 'you're being to defensive'. I wished I was paid every time I heard that.

I don't really care if you find manga Merged Zamasu better. What you liked or dislike is none of my concern. My problem was that you tried to low-ball Future Zamasu by saying that he wasn't on the level of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku because he jobbed to Future Trunks, despite the anime making it clear that he was on that level and he got tagged all the time because he was an immortal and didn't keep his defense up. If you can't see that after the anime straight up tells you, there isn't much to say.

You are taking into account the anime, where it shows that Goku and Vegeta gets the God Ki just by training with Whis, and consequently they get the SSGSS.
The manga is different from the anime, at no time is shown this kind of training is shown by Vegeta.

In RoF, which had a script by Toriyama, Goku himself says that the SSB is when a Saiyajin acquires the SSG POWER and turns into SSJ. In all the scans of the movie where he talked about the transformation, that was said.

It makes no difference that SSJ2 is just a variation of SSJ, it does not change the fact that it is necessary to have SSJ to get SSJ2, it is a form that precedes it.
By saying that the SSG precedes the SSB, it makes clear that it is a pre-requisite form, it is a form that comes before, which needs to be obtained sooner.
Regardless of the SSB being a transformation to part of the SSG, the fact is that it is necessary to get the power of the Super Saiyajin God, even in games this is indicated.
It is not for nothing that the initial name of the form was Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, that already makes it very clear

The same training was shown in the manga, we see it in the fifth chapter of the manga. The only real different is that Goku didn't lose his Super Saiyan God form. It was never implied that Vegeta ever got Super Saiyan God until he shows it out of nowhere with Black during their second match. If the manga wants us to believe that Vegeta always had it, it did a poor job.

He said in the movie that he had a taste of something of something called Super Saiyan God and how he can tap into that power. When Vegeta transformed, he stated that he now had the power of the god. Never once was it said that Super Saiyan God was needed for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Only that god ki and understanding how to used it was required. This is highlighted further when Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore.

It's only necessary because all Super Saiyan 2 is is an extension of Super Saiyan. It isn't it own form, it is just Super Saiyan Plus. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't Super Saiyan God Plus. It is from its own branch with the only relation being that they both used god ki. You don't need Super Saiyan God to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since even Toriyama said that it wasn't needed anymore once Goku took it in.

Training in manga and anime was done in different ways.

In the SSGSS scans that came out before the movie, they explained that the SSB is when a Saiyajin WINS SSG power and turns into SSJ.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It is clearly said that he needs to obtain the power of an SSG, the divine power.

In the Japanese version of the film it is said: '' This is a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God ''

Toriyama also said that we would not see the SSJ2 and 3 anymore, and they appeared later in manga and anime. That statement about SSG is a long time ago.

I have nothing else to say. If Goku himself implies in saying that SSG is a form that comes before SSB, then it becomes clear that the Red form is necessary.
If they just needed to reach the divine Ki and combine it with the SSJ to form the SSB, then the SSG would be a totally separate form, they would have no relation, but it is not what this speaks shows

[kinisking]

So, after reading the new chapter there are some major pros and cons :

Pros:

Vegetto cutting off Merged Zamasu's hands was brutal.

Vegeta is the one who wants to fuse.

I like the choreography as usual.

Cons :
Goku and Vegeta really want to fight this guy one on one ? They're not THAT stupid. They should know they have no chance .

Goku in base needing to protect Trunks. He shouldn't be stronger than Trunks.

The katchin block over use.

[HeroR]

Training in manga and anime was done in different ways.

In the SSGSS scans that came out before the movie, they explained that the SSB is when a Saiyajin WINS SSG power and turns into SSJ.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It is clearly said that he needs to obtain the power of an SSG, the divine power.

In the Japanese version of the film it is said: '' This is a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God ''

Toriyama also said that we would not see the SSJ2 and 3 anymore, and they appeared later in manga and anime. That statement about SSG is a long time ago.

I have nothing else to say. If Goku himself implies in saying that SSG is a form that comes before SSB, then it becomes clear that the Red form is necessary.
If they just needed to reach the divine Ki and combine it with the SSJ to form the SSB, then the SSG would be a totally separate form, they would have no relation, but it is not what this speaks shows

It really wasn't. The anime only expanded on the training and even then we saw really nothing besides Goku and Vegeta sparring each other and Whis.

Yes it said that, but that doesn't mean Super Saiyan God is necessary for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Only learning to used god ki. Because he said "power of a Super Saiyan God". Not Super Saiyan God itself.

That wasn't what Toriyama said. He said Goku may not used those forms again since they're power sinks. And Goku really hasn't. He hasn't used Super Saiyan 3 besides with Trunks, the same with Super Saiyan 2. Even Vegeta only used Super Saiyan 2 to test Black. So, again, Toriyama said that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore and he never gave the form to Vegeta.

Yes, Super Saiyan God is a separate form. It isn't like Super Saiyan 1 to the other Super Saiyan forms, which are just extensions.

[goku the krump dancer]

One thing I really like is how Toyotaro's art style really displays the aesthetics of fusion.. Vegetto/Gogeta always looked like a good mesh of Goku and Vegeta, so nothing new there, still looks cool though. Merged Zamasu looks awesome here. He looks like Zamasu with a heavy Goku influence or Goku with a very evil elf-like influence. Kinda like how Bebi has a heavy influence on Vegeta after transforming. In the anime Merged Zamasu just looked like regular Zamasu in a bad Goku wig..

[GodVegetto91]

Never mind! Already solved xD

[KidGokuDB]

I thought this was a very average chapter.

One thing that really annoyed me about chapter 23 was Goku constantly transforming into SSB fighting Merged Zamasu. What is the point of making up some drawback about Blue consuming energy and just ignoring that? It makes Goku look like some idiot trying it again and again. Head scratching decision made by Toyotarou.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You can tell what's in Toriyama's scripts, from what's similar between the anime and manga, and what they both build up towards. Vegetto Blue, Goku using a Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu, fusion wearing off, etc

We can't tell for sure if something comes from Toriyama, even if that something is in both manga & anime, since we are told that Toei & Toyotaro get influenced by each other. For example, the return of the golden Super Saiyan forms for Goku & Vegeta doesn't seem to come from Toriyama.

What are you basing that on?

From the plot-hole that is Goku's base form power.

Because Toriyama wrote the Battle of Gods & Resurrection "F" movies. In this continuity, Goku's & Vegeta base forms had the power of SSG, their Super Saiyan forms were permanently turned into Super Saiyan Blue, and they abandoned Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and Super Saiyan God. Then he wrote the next story arcs (Universe 6 arc, Future Trunks arc, Universe Survival arc) as continuations of these movies.

Toyotaro retconned this for Goku & Vegeta, and eliminated the base with SSG power state, keeping them in their regular levels, and having them use SS, SS2, SS3, SSG, and SSB. Apparently forgot to do the same to Black, because he is obviously a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (although originaly weakened due to the body change), and his Super Saiyan form eventually evolved into Super Saiyan Rose, like Goku's & Vegeta's Super Saiyan forms evolved into Super Saiyan Blue between the 2 movies.

Toei on the other hand are either kept Goku & Vegeta as Saiyans with the power of Super Saiyan God, but sometimes they throw them back to their regular levels with their regular Super Saiyan forms.

Finally, both Toyotaro & Toei are now treating Super Saiyan Blue as a form beyond Super Saiyan (God), while in the movie it was treated as an altered regular Super Saiyan form.

And that's the reason things are messed up & theories like the 2 base theory are needed to fix the plot-hole that was created ever since BoG came out.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Toyo probably doesn't even care for Trunks that he stopped drawing him well and as per the new Character design.

Then:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Now:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

On the flip side the panels with Vegetto were really good! So balanced I guess? But I did find his art to be more inconsistent here then usual, some off panel shots of Goku too.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 23-

What the hell is wrong Toyotaro with so many throwbacks?! Enough is enough!

Merged Zamasu recovering from his hole in the chest done by SSB Goku's blast is just like Majin Buu recovering from Majin Vegeta's blast. And he recovering his arm after Vegetto's attack is just like Perfect Cell recovering from Vegeta's final flash.

I don't like how Toyotaro is showing Merged Zamasu's immortality because he just remembers me of those two.

His ki blast attack it was just like what Super Buu did to kill "everyone" on Earth.
His first attack to Goku/Vegeta reminded the first attack Raditz did to Goku/Piccolo, but slightly different. I will give this one a free pass. The execution was bad though.

Just like I feared Merged Zamasu's godlike attacks in the anime were from Toei, so his lame attacks in the manga don't surprise me.
Using Katchin to attack is something I hadn't think about it (Kaioshin had that move in Budokai 3) but I would give that move to Immortal Zamasu.

Merged Zamasu is a self-acclaimed Supreme God who thinks he's above everyone else. He should have attacks that support that role. His attacks in the manga are too underwhelming to make him feel like that. The anime made justice to what his character is supposed to be. His reveal, the halo, his attacks... everything about him is better in the anime so far. In the manga he just looks like a normal fusion, lacking any flavor. There's nothing special about him.

I do like the battle damage after he took Vegetto's ki sword attacks. Battle damage is something the anime desperately needs much more.

Vegetto cutting Merged Zamasu hands was badass af!! Love it! His introduction was also really great, but I don't like how Vegetto was the one to get the last Senzu. He is a new being and thus he should already start with full HP. Bad move, Toyo!

Anyway, even though we didn't get the Final Kamehameha I'm satisfied with Toyotaro's version of this fight. It's my second favourite fight of this arc in the manga, with Vegeta vs Black in chapter 20 being the ultimate number one. Toyotaro was onfire in that chapter.

Looks like he also enjoys using Kiais. He was been using them often in the last chapters.

FT Trunks speech about his mother was emotional. For moments I thought he had forgotten about her, after seeing him playing a kartz video game some chapters ago.
Also his design reminded me more of DBZ FT Trunks than DBS in this chapter. Mainly because he doesn't have his scarf.

I loved how Vegeta was influenced by his speech to fuse, instead of acting like a Tsundere as he was in the anime.

Anyway, Ok chapter overall. At least it was better than the SSG bullshit from the last one.
Next chapter should be the last one. I'm glad Toyotaro didn't rush this arc, but there's no point in having more than one chapter left.


-Merged Zamasu plot hole?!-

It's hard to say if it's a plot hole or not. There's this page in chapter 17:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
But this is only valid for the Zamasu of the main timeline that got killed by Beerus. Goku Black could have became a real Kaioshin before started his plan.
Rumoosh would still die because Gowasu was the main Kaioshin on role. Just like assuming from what we got, Beerus seems to be connected just to Shin and not the Elder Kaioshin.

It's up for interpretation, but I hate how Toyotaro is treating Goku Black/Zamasu/Merged Zamasu as clowns until the very end though. They are nothing compared to their anime counterparts.

[TheSaiyanGod]

What is the point of merging with full power?
Is a new being, but the two users were powerless, worn and very hurt.
The merger does not cure anyone.

The anime should have made Vegetto eat the fusion, not spend two seeds for Goku and Vegeta to recover individually. It did not make much sense

[Kanassa]

This is where my interest sky rockets. No humans for spirit sword, no super saiyan rage, and Zamasu is also on a time limit. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. Maybe we'll get a final confrontation with Black like I always wanted. Assuming that the time limit expires in the next chapter. I wonder if summoning the hardest metal known in the universe multiple times takes up a lot of energy.

Maybe they'll have Shin go ''Oh yeah, I can do that too!" (Or was that Kibito's thing?) and summon katchin in the form of a sword for Trunks or something. Now THAT would be cool.

[Ki Breaker]

This is where my interest sky rockets. No humans for spirit sword, no super saiyan rage, and Zamasu is also on a time limit. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. Maybe we'll get a final confrontation with Black like I always wanted. Assuming that the time limit expires in the next chapter. I wonder if summoning the hardest metal known in the universe multiple times takes up a lot of energy.

Maybe they'll have Shin go ''Oh yeah, I can do that too!" (Or was that Kibito's thing?) and summon katchin in the form of a sword for Trunks or something. Now THAT would be cool.

That would be pretty cool actually, super Saiyan powered katchin sword Should be able to damage pretty good

[Kanassa]

Gowasu is the one who says that Zamasu isn't a Supreme Kai, huh? Well, that makes the statement more credible. I mean, it's his apprentice.

Though that brings up the question: How does Gowasu know that FUTURE Zamasu isn't a Kaioshin? He doesn't know what the Immortal Zamasu has gone through in this Timeline prior to meeting up with Black. Did I forget something from that conversation they had two chapters ago?

[Cipher]

Now that it's out in English:

I have no strong feelings on this chapter, and by and large feel that individual monthly installments aren't much worth commenting on. The manga's true strength is how well its stories play out as contained, single-sitting reads.

I suppose my only real reaction here is to other people's comments: mainly the idea that Toyotaro is somehow doing Black and Zamasu and disservice in their portrayals, extending to their fused form this chapter. They're certainly less composed, less hammy and mustache-twirling, than in the anime, but I think that's fine. While the anime made Black the ultimate supervillain, Toyotaro has kept his sights on exactly what Zamasu is: a punk zealot who got too big for his britches. He's unimaginative and overeager. Whether he's Black or Zamasu or the ultimate fused god, he's still at heart a petulant kid.

[Basako]

Finally I read the chapter translated. Well, that's the thing, although I enjoyed to see tha art before, getting to read what the characters are saying with the facial expresions in the panels is much better. Happens something similar when I see the anime without subs and then with subs.

It's a very solid chapter, totally about fusions, one of the big thematic returns of the arc, along with the time travels. First we have Merged Zamasu, who was about to be defeated and only the fusion gives him a chance, and what a chance, he absolutely crushes both Goku and Vegeta. He gets so cocky, not any god is needed in the millions of planets across the 12 universes, he says. Well, that made me think about the 28 inhabited plantes again, but I'll leave that for the next arc. Then the table turns, the saiyans fuse and Vegetto is the one who gets above. No objection about the power levels, that's how the fusions work and I can buy at this point they get close to Beerus. I'm a total Vegetto fan, he is portrayed perfectly in here, so I love the chapter. Could we have had more? Well, this is a monthly manga, it's about time the arc ends and the separation cliffhanger was the best way to end the chapter, so I'm satisfied.

The battles. I liked them a lot, I analized them in another comment before. I won't repeat all, but, as most people, I loved the moment Vegetto cuts MZ's hands. Amazing! I liked the block technique of MZ too, I read that it was used for Shin in a videogame before. Well, wether he took the idea from there or not, it doesn't matter, I think it's good to use a Kaioshin element that already exists, as he was an apprentice, and make it valid for a battle. And it's not the only thing he uses, he launches energy balls to every direction, a big sparky energy ball that he intendes to launch to the building and the psychic moves against Goku and Vegeta repeatedly.

The problem. Yes, I agree Goku and Vegeta taking turns to fight doesn't feel right. The moment is to desperate to be doing something like that. The way they discuss it is fun, but he shouldn't sacrifice coherency to introduce a gag, as Toei shouldn't sacrifice it either to introduce hypes, like they do so many times. Anyway, it's not a deal breaker, characters not using the best strategies or making the best decisions aren't plotholes. It's like Krilin not using a Kiezan after blinding Dodoria, for example.

Refusing to fuse in the first moment is coherent though. It's continuing the decision they made against Boo and they still don't know it's not forever. That also gives us the great speach about future Bulma that Trunks makes, which is the thing that pushes Vegeta to go for the fusion. The retcon, well, the anime introduced it to us, now we get a full explanation, with explicit references about the Boo arc. The most shocking thing, MZ's fusion is temporary too, because Zamasu was not really a Kaioshin. Woo, that means withouth a doubt that he is going to defuse next chapter. Things are going to be very different then. No Goomasu and I hope no Skymasu either. We'll see.

So, in conclusion, I enjoyed the chapter a lot, I think it was great. Good job Toyo.

[LightBing]

Gowasu is the one who says that Zamasu isn't a Supreme Kai, huh? Well, that makes the statement more credible. I mean, it's his apprentice.

Though that brings up the question: How does Gowasu know that FUTURE Zamasu isn't a Kaioshin? He doesn't know what the Immortal Zamasu has gone through in this Timeline prior to meeting up with Black. Did I forget something from that conversation they had two chapters ago?

The impression I have is that only a certain few can actually nominate Kaioshins. We saw Gowasu do it and I assume Zeno and the other Angels also have the authority. It's a pretty safe assumption that nobody gave Future Zamasu the title.

Toyotaro has kept his sights on exactly what Zamasu is: a punk zealot who got too big for his britches. He's unimaginative and overeager. Whether he's Black or Zamasu or the ultimate fused god, he's still at heart a petulant kid.

Yes, thank you. People have forcefully made the comparison to the character in the anime when you aren't supposed to; it's a different character.
We are supposed to pity and despise Manga Zamasu, he's pathetic with a strong complex of both superiority and inferiority.
In this chapter we see(again) his frail ego, when he answers Goku's taunt from last chapter, about how he's weaker than Trunks.

It's an interesting approach to the character even if sometimes it's not the most entertaining. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the character's portrayal.

[Kanassa]

Gowasu is the one who says that Zamasu isn't a Supreme Kai, huh? Well, that makes the statement more credible. I mean, it's his apprentice.

Though that brings up the question: How does Gowasu know that FUTURE Zamasu isn't a Kaioshin? He doesn't know what the Immortal Zamasu has gone through in this Timeline prior to meeting up with Black. Did I forget something from that conversation they had two chapters ago?

The impression I have is that only a certain few can actually nominate Kaioshins. We saw Gowasu do it and I assume Zeno and the other Angels also have the authority. It's a pretty safe assumption that nobody gave Future Zamasu the title.

Not really, Gowasu fully trusts Zamasu until Beerus comes along to straight up tell him that Zamasu is evil; itd be an equally safe assumption that Future Zamasu, with all the extra time, could of been made a Supreme Kai before killing Gowasu.

Second thoguth: Just as I finished writing this I remembered the Kioshin Hakaioshin link. Zamasu would have to have been made Supreme Kai AFTER killing Gowasu, not before otherwise he'd never get rid of the Hakaioshin. So, yeah, your assumption is safe; though there's also the chance that Zamasu was able to bullshit his way into the position somehow. But we can't really assume since we don't know how the Supreme Kai promotion works.