Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

Aside from Base Goku fighting Beerus and Gotenks, is there anything else since the start of the Universe 6 saga that outright proves Goku isn't within the same sort of range as he was in back in the Buu saga?

Yes.

Goku was almost even with assault form frost, and wasn't even serious, and piccolo (more powerful than buu arc) stated that "lower forms of frost" will be "more fair" fight, when frost was weakened.

Base vegeta apparently blew up the rosat.

etc

Vegetto stomping Merged Zamasu in the manga makes sense because in the anime Merged Zamasu got a powerup with the Lights of Justice and the main reason he was even with Vegetto before he transformed into his bulked form.

If Vegetto is really Hakaishin level than Genkidama Trunks has more raw strength than a Hakaishin because he 2 shotted Merged Zamasu, but in the other aspects the Hakaishins would still be above Genkidama Trunks.

With the latest episodes of DBS telling us Strategy/teamwork/tactics are >> Raw strength, the Hakaishin would defeat Genkidama Trunks due to experience and speed.

Trunks was as fast as Merged Zamasu, who Vegetto recalled being slow.

Zamasu was neveer even with Vegetto. He was getting stomped throughout the fight, weakened to the point where trunks could handle Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

Base vegeta apparently blew up the rosat.

I don't doubt he could possibly to that, but apparently he was doing something pretty exhausting (like pushing Super Saiyan Blue to its limit) when the rosat was destroyed.

About the manga, Toyotaro seems to be thinking about the possibility of Vegetto and Beerus being comparable. Let's see if it will be enlightened.

[Bullza]

Unfortunately we don't know how exactly Vegeta blew up the Rosat. If we knew for a fact that happened just from his Base power then I'd have no problem saying he was still God level considering SSJ3 Gotenks could only make a few feet hole and SSJ1 Gotenks and Piccolo could do a thing.

But for we all know he could have done it in Blue form and then went back to normal. We'll never know.

[apex_pretador]

Base vegeta apparently blew up the rosat.

I don't doubt he could possibly to that, but apparently he was doing something pretty exhausting (like pushing Super Saiyan Blue to its limit) when the rosat was destroyed.

About the manga, Toyotaro seems to be thinking about the possibility of Vegetto and Beerus being comparable. Let's see if it will be enlightened.

Maybe, but we see him in the base at the moment the ROSAT blew up. It is entirely possible he was training his base and pushing himself to the limit in base

I still believe beerus to be superior. The moment when shin compared him to beerus, vegetto was charging final kamehameha, and used so much energy that he instantly de-fused. So, vegetto (using all his energy at once) is maybe superior to a non-bloodlusted beerus.

[namekiansaiyan]

I'm also gonna Make a list with a scale of 1 out of 15 about the universe survival arc,in 3 category

Son goku

• Power:15

• Teamwork:4

• tactics:15

Vegeta

• Power:15

• Teamwork:3

• tactics:15

Son Gohan

• power:10

• Teamwork:13

• tactics:14

#17

• power:12

• teamwork:15

• tactics:5

Krillin

• Power:3

• Teamwork:15

• Tactics:14

Piccolo

• power:8

• Teamwork:15

• tactics:15

#18

• Power:5

• Teamwork:15

• tactics:5

Majin Buu

• Power:10

• Teamwork:3

• tactics:7

Tien

• Power:3

• Teamwork:8

• Tactics;15

Roshi

• Power:2

• Teamwork:8

• Tactics:14

Adding all 3 stats means Piccolo is the best fighter for this tournament. No surprise.

[Helios518]

Base vegeta apparently blew up the rosat.

I don't doubt he could possibly to that, but apparently he was doing something pretty exhausting (like pushing Super Saiyan Blue to its limit) when the rosat was destroyed.

About the manga, Toyotaro seems to be thinking about the possibility of Vegetto and Beerus being comparable. Let's see if it will be enlightened.

Maybe, but we see him in the base at the moment the ROSAT blew up. It is entirely possible he was training his base and pushing himself to the limit in base

I still believe beerus to be superior. The moment when shin compared him to beerus, vegetto was charging final kamehameha, and used so much energy that he instantly de-fused. So, vegetto (using all his energy at once) is maybe superior to a non-bloodlusted beerus.

It's also entire possible for Vegeta to have transformed very briefly causing the RoSaT to blow up.

[apex_pretador]

I don't doubt he could possibly to that, but apparently he was doing something pretty exhausting (like pushing Super Saiyan Blue to its limit) when the rosat was destroyed.

About the manga, Toyotaro seems to be thinking about the possibility of Vegetto and Beerus being comparable. Let's see if it will be enlightened.

Maybe, but we see him in the base at the moment the ROSAT blew up. It is entirely possible he was training his base and pushing himself to the limit in base

I still believe beerus to be superior. The moment when shin compared him to beerus, vegetto was charging final kamehameha, and used so much energy that he instantly de-fused. So, vegetto (using all his energy at once) is maybe superior to a non-bloodlusted beerus.

It's also entire possible for Vegeta to have transformed very briefly causing the RoSaT to blow up.

That is speculation though. There is no reason to believe that Vegeta transformed to base at the exact same point of time when RoSaT blew up.

[LowRyder2005]

Maybe, but we see him in the base at the moment the ROSAT blew up. It is entirely possible he was training his base and pushing himself to the limit in base

I still believe beerus to be superior. The moment when shin compared him to beerus, vegetto was charging final kamehameha, and used so much energy that he instantly de-fused. So, vegetto (using all his energy at once) is maybe superior to a non-bloodlusted beerus.

It's also entire possible for Vegeta to have transformed very briefly causing the RoSaT to blow up.

That is speculation though. There is no reason to believe that Vegeta transformed to base at the exact same point of time when RoSaT blew up.

Well, while it's a fair observation, it's not like he's speculating more than you are here. Knowing that Vegeta destroyed the ROSAT and that he was shown in base immediately after doesn't really prove he did that in base. He may have exhausted himself powering up as a SS, consequentially reverting to base.

[apex_pretador]

It's also entire possible for Vegeta to have transformed very briefly causing the RoSaT to blow up.

That is speculation though. There is no reason to believe that Vegeta transformed to base at the exact same point of time when RoSaT blew up.

Well, while it's a fair observation, it's not like he's speculating more than you are here. Knowing that Vegeta destroyed the ROSAT and that he was shown in base immediately after doesn't really prove he did that in base. He may have exhausted himself powering up as a SS, consequentially reverting to base.

We see that when RoSaT blew up, vegeta was in base. The most fair and logical assumption is that he was in base. To assume that he was in SS or SSB, and then reverted at the exact same moment when RoSaT blows up is speculation. We see no aura fading away, no indication that he was in transformed state before.

Now, I am not saying that him being in base is confirmed (read above), but it is by far the most likely scenario.

[LowRyder2005]

That is speculation though. There is no reason to believe that Vegeta transformed to base at the exact same point of time when RoSaT blew up.

Well, while it's a fair observation, it's not like he's speculating more than you are here. Knowing that Vegeta destroyed the ROSAT and that he was shown in base immediately after doesn't really prove he did that in base. He may have exhausted himself powering up as a SS, consequentially reverting to base.

We see that when RoSaT blew up, vegeta was in base. The most fair and logical assumption is that he was in base. To assume that he was in SS or SSB, and then reverted at the exact same moment when RoSaT blows up is speculation. We see no aura fading away, no indication that he was in transformed state before.

Now, I am not saying that him being in base is confirmed (read above), but it is by far the most likely scenario.

I still don't really see how this is less of a speculation than the other theory of Vegeta going Blue. I don't think it even constitutes an Occam's Razor like you are indirectly suggesting: Saiyans deprived of ki revert to base, usually, and Vegeta appeared quite tired. It's not like the scenario some have theorized necessitates added preconditions that make it less preferable.

[apex_pretador]

Well, while it's a fair observation, it's not like he's speculating more than you are here. Knowing that Vegeta destroyed the ROSAT and that he was shown in base immediately after doesn't really prove he did that in base. He may have exhausted himself powering up as a SS, consequentially reverting to base.

We see that when RoSaT blew up, vegeta was in base. The most fair and logical assumption is that he was in base. To assume that he was in SS or SSB, and then reverted at the exact same moment when RoSaT blows up is speculation. We see no aura fading away, no indication that he was in transformed state before.

Now, I am not saying that him being in base is confirmed (read above), but it is by far the most likely scenario.

I still don't really see how this is less of a speculation than the other theory of Vegeta going Blue. I don't think it even constitutes an Occam's Razor like you are indirectly suggesting: Saiyans deprived of ki revert to base, usually, and Vegeta appeared quite tired. It's not like the scenario some have theorized necessitates added preconditions that make it less preferable.

If vegeta was tired due to blowing up the RoSaT, it would confirm that he was in base. He should have no difficulty in destroying RoSaT in blue form.
And again, for the 5th time, I am not saying that we can certainly say that he blew it in base, but that it is much more likely (because he is seen in base instantly after RoSaT is destroyed), and considering how it looks like he destroyed it in a fit of rage, it is unlikely he will revert at the exact same moment when RoSaT blew up.

[LowRyder2005]

We see that when RoSaT blew up, vegeta was in base. The most fair and logical assumption is that he was in base. To assume that he was in SS or SSB, and then reverted at the exact same moment when RoSaT blows up is speculation. We see no aura fading away, no indication that he was in transformed state before.

Now, I am not saying that him being in base is confirmed (read above), but it is by far the most likely scenario.

I still don't really see how this is less of a speculation than the other theory of Vegeta going Blue. I don't think it even constitutes an Occam's Razor like you are indirectly suggesting: Saiyans deprived of ki revert to base, usually, and Vegeta appeared quite tired. It's not like the scenario some have theorized necessitates added preconditions that make it less preferable.

If vegeta was tired due to blowing up the RoSaT, it would confirm that he was in base. He should have no difficulty in destroying RoSaT in blue form.
And again, for the 5th time, I am not saying that we can certainly say that he blew it in base, but that it is much more likely (because he is seen in base instantly after RoSaT is destroyed), and considering how it looks like he destroyed it in a fit of rage, it is unlikely he will revert at the exact same moment when RoSaT blew up.

This makes little sense: we have quite literally no idea on what kind of power output is ultimately needed to blow up the ROSAT like that. The only reference available is that someone like Super Buu/ SS3 Gotenks needed considerable effort to create a tear in the dimensional barrier. Who's to say that a Super Saiyan God wouldn't struggle to destroy the room? We can only assume Vegeta probably exerted a force on a much greater magnitude compared to what happened in Z, but since the process happens entirely off panel it's painfully obvious that there's an inherent speculation to any conclusion on the "how" he did that.

Of course, I entirely agree that there is the possibility Vegeta did that in base form since feats would at least partly corroborate this hypothesis, but as many others pointed out (and you yourself did) it's just that: a hypothesis. By itself, though, I can't help but finding your argument not that much different than seeing base Gohan at the end of his Kamehameha struggle with Cell (without any notion of where everyone stood in power, that is) and claiming that he "probably" was in base all along. If anything, I think that to you it appears that Vegeta was "most likely" in base because you've already internalized the idea that Vegeta must be on a level far, far beyond Gotenks' and Super Buu's. Which is not exactly unlikely, anyway.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I still don't really see how this is less of a speculation than the other theory of Vegeta going Blue. I don't think it even constitutes an Occam's Razor like you are indirectly suggesting: Saiyans deprived of ki revert to base, usually, and Vegeta appeared quite tired. It's not like the scenario some have theorized necessitates added preconditions that make it less preferable.

If vegeta was tired due to blowing up the RoSaT, it would confirm that he was in base. He should have no difficulty in destroying RoSaT in blue form.
And again, for the 5th time, I am not saying that we can certainly say that he blew it in base, but that it is much more likely (because he is seen in base instantly after RoSaT is destroyed), and considering how it looks like he destroyed it in a fit of rage, it is unlikely he will revert at the exact same moment when RoSaT blew up.

This makes little sense: we have quite literally no idea on what kind of power output is ultimately needed to blow up the ROSAT like that. The only reference available is that someone like Super Buu/ SS3 Gotenks needed considerable effort to create a tear in the dimensional barrier. Who's to say that a Super Saiyan God wouldn't struggle to destroy the room? We can only assume Vegeta probably exerted a force on a much greater magnitude compared to what happened in Z, but since the process happens entirely off panel it's painfully obvious that there's an inherent speculation to any conclusion on the "how" he did that.

Of course, I entirely agree that there is the possibility Vegeta did that in base form since feats would at least partly corroborate this hypothesis, but as many others pointed out (and you yourself did) it's just that: a hypothesis. By itself, though, I can't help but finding your argument not that much different than seeing base Gohan at the end of his Kamehameha struggle with Cell (without any notion of where everyone stood in power, that is) and claiming that he "probably" was in base all along. If anything, I think that to you it appears that Vegeta was "most likely" in base because you've already internalized the idea that Vegeta must be on a level far, far beyond Gotenks' and Super Buu's. Which is not exactly unlikely, anyway.

His argument makes a lot more logical sense. For yours to be true we must speculate an extra layer of events we arent shown and that arent hinted at. By his theory all speculation is based on what is shown.

Just my 2 cents.

[LowRyder2005]

If vegeta was tired due to blowing up the RoSaT, it would confirm that he was in base. He should have no difficulty in destroying RoSaT in blue form.
And again, for the 5th time, I am not saying that we can certainly say that he blew it in base, but that it is much more likely (because he is seen in base instantly after RoSaT is destroyed), and considering how it looks like he destroyed it in a fit of rage, it is unlikely he will revert at the exact same moment when RoSaT blew up.

This makes little sense: we have quite literally no idea on what kind of power output is ultimately needed to blow up the ROSAT like that. The only reference available is that someone like Super Buu/ SS3 Gotenks needed considerable effort to create a tear in the dimensional barrier. Who's to say that a Super Saiyan God wouldn't struggle to destroy the room? We can only assume Vegeta probably exerted a force on a much greater magnitude compared to what happened in Z, but since the process happens entirely off panel it's painfully obvious that there's an inherent speculation to any conclusion on the "how" he did that.

Of course, I entirely agree that there is the possibility Vegeta did that in base form since feats would at least partly corroborate this hypothesis, but as many others pointed out (and you yourself did) it's just that: a hypothesis. By itself, though, I can't help but finding your argument not that much different than seeing base Gohan at the end of his Kamehameha struggle with Cell (without any notion of where everyone stood in power, that is) and claiming that he "probably" was in base all along. If anything, I think that to you it appears that Vegeta was "most likely" in base because you've already internalized the idea that Vegeta must be on a level far, far beyond Gotenks' and Super Buu's. Which is not exactly unlikely, anyway.

His argument makes a lot more logical sense. For yours to be true we must speculate an extra layer of events we arent shown and that arent hinted at. By his theory all speculation is based on what is shown.

Just my 2 cents.

Again, I personally think it's debatable even if you wanted to apply Occam's razor: it's either Vegeta "stays in base and by being in base exhausts himself" or Vegeta "transforms and that transformation exhausts him" to me. It's not like I'm creating an added precondition contributing to Vegeta's exhaustion unrelated to everything else, which would most definitely go against what the Occam's razor suggests would be the proper way to handle logical problems. This has still more to do with semantics - namely, what constitutes a "layer" - than with anything else, though.

Regarding the argument, after further reflection and following apex_predator's own rationale I technically ended up being more convinced than before in regards to Vegeta doing what he did with Super Saiyan Blue; his base form, while stronger than ever, hasn't exactly been shown to eclipse Gotenks' own power in the same manner an "explosion" can "eclipse" a "small tear". Anyway, I guess one could still argue that Vegeta wasn't going all out against Gotenks, among many other counterarguments.

[darzap]

If Vegetto is really Hakaishin level than Genkidama Trunks has more raw strength than a Hakaishin because he 2 shotted Merged Zamasu, but in the other aspects the Hakaishins would still be above Genkidama Trunks.

Yajirobe wasn't stronger than Oozaru Vegeta, he still cut off his tail. Trunks only needed more power than an overconfident (and at that point pretty deranged) merged Zamasu expected and braced himself for. A weaker hero inflicting a mortal wound to a much stronger enemy is not unheard of and conveys a message in its own right (like i.e. Cloud defeating Sephiroth at Nibelheim reactor in FF7).

[Bullza]

So Herms translated this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 89/photo/1

Which I suppose is all but a confirmation that Gohan will actually be even stronger than he was back in the Buu saga as Ultimate Gohan.

Probably not going to be useful for any power scaling because it'll cause even further speculation on just how much more powerful he is.

Hopefully we can get another idea of how Base Gohan compares to Piccolo and vice versa.

[LowRyder2005]

So Herms translated this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 89/photo/1

Which I suppose is all but a confirmation that Gohan will actually be even stronger than he was back in the Buu saga as Ultimate Gohan.

Probably not going to be useful for any power scaling because it'll cause even further speculation on just how much more powerful he is.

Hopefully we can get another idea of how Base Gohan compares to Piccolo and vice versa.

I guess, on the other hand, that we got our confirmation that the current Gohan was in fact still weaker (or, at most, equal) to his late Buu arc self.

[Lord Beerus]

Nothing really to report from the latest episode.

[Doctor.]

Super Saiyan Gohan seems to be struggling with Piccolo in the preview and also seems to have reacquired his ultimate form.

[The gr]

Nothing much happened in This episode,in term of power scale aside from the preview, Piccolo looks stronger than ss1 or he just outsmarted Gohan, and it looks like Gohan finally obtained Ultimate