Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Just remembered how on earth did trunk get so strong

He got on shotting by ss3 goku then a couple of episodes later with no training he skips all of the god training etc etc to pass goku and vegeta

Awful. There is no narrative consistency

No, he did not surpass them. He gained a new form of SS via rage that put him on a level that could hurt Goku Black. Goku and Vegeta could do that as well in SSB. As well, Future Trunks only did so well against Merged Zamasu thanks to the Genkidama Sword, Merged Zamasu being in a less combat-capable state after fighting SSB Vegetto, and the fused god's own hubris.

[Bullza]

Base goku fought slim buu who was stronger then good buu who operated around high ssj2 to low tier ssj3 tier of power.

Except that's not a definite. Like Goku using Super Saiyan Blue against Krillin, Buu wouldn't be going for the kill, it was light sparring there's nothing at all to say that Base Goku there was God level.

He obviously wouldn't be anyway otherwise Buu would never have been able to hurt him.

Stop saying theres been a recton where nothing even hints to it

There's plenty. Base Goku was God level and now Super Saiyan 3 Goku is not God level.

Base Goku before > SSJ3 Goku now

That's a retcon. He was at the level of Gods against Beerus in Base/Super Saiyan and now he isn't.

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened.

Well that would just be like when Kid Trunks went Super Saiyan and blasted Gotten with a Ki attack. It didn't hurt him in anyway despite being dozens of times more powerful. Neither he or Vegeta would actually be intending to hurt them.

[Lord Beerus]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened.

Well that would just be like when Kid Trunks went Super Saiyan and blasted Gotten with a Ki attack. It didn't hurt him in anyway despite being dozens of times more powerful. Neither he or Vegeta would actually be intending to hurt them.

Then why the hell did Vegeta go SSJB? Especially since the anime has gotten heavy criticism for using SSJB in unnecessary circumstances, even in sparring.

[TheMikado]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened.

Well that would just be like when Kid Trunks went Super Saiyan and blasted Gotten with a Ki attack. It didn't hurt him in anyway despite being dozens of times more powerful. Neither he or Vegeta would actually be intending to hurt them.

Then why the hell did Vegeta go SSJB? Especially since the anime has gotten heavy criticism for using SSJB in unnecessary circumstances, even in sparring.

I think this was before the Toriyama retcon.

Should say at least at the point where we think it happened.

[Bullza]

Wasn't Vegeta just urging him to go Super Saiyan Blue as well so they could fight more seriously at a higher level? Like they did in the Rosat?

[pacz360]

Base goku fought slim buu who was stronger then good buu who operated around high ssj2 to low tier ssj3 tier of power.

Except that's not a definite. Like Goku using Super Saiyan Blue against Krillin, Buu wouldn't be going for the kill, it was light sparring there's nothing at all to say that Base Goku there was God level.

He obviously wouldn't be anyway otherwise Buu would never have been able to hurt him.

Stop saying theres been a recton where nothing even hints to it

There's plenty. Base Goku was God level and now Super Saiyan 3 Goku is not God level.

Base Goku before > SSJ3 Goku now

That's a retcon. He was at the level of Gods against Beerus in Base/Super Saiyan and now he isn't.

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened.

Goku straight up told krillin what would you do now when he went blue against krillin krillin was getting his ass kicked by base gohan who was also holding back krillin straight up admits it to him.
Goku wanted to see how strong buu gotten from his training and was very impressed.
There hasn't been a retcon you keep saying but what proves it?
Goku again traded blows with slim buu who's a lot stronger then before base goku traded blows with base copy vegeta. same copy vegeta that stomped ssj3 gotenks
Holding his own against a fired up beerus.
Base goku surving multiple hits from hit before going blue.
Nothing suggest current goku is weaker than he was at bog or rof that's nothing but head canon.
As I said until stated otherwise nothing proves current ssj goku being weaker than he was at bog he absorbed the god Power into him it wouldn't make sense to be weaker where he has feats that says otherwise.

[Bullza]

There hasn't been a retcon you keep saying but what proves it?
Goku again traded blows with slim buu who's a lot stronger then before base goku traded blows with base copy vegeta. same copy vegeta that stomped ssj3 gotenks
Holding his own against a fired up beerus.
Base goku surving multiple hits from hit before going blue.

....I just told you...In the very post you quoted.

I also specifically said that the retcon if any would have happened with the start of the Future Trunks saga so why are you listing examples like Beerus, Gotenks and Hit which were beforethe Future Trunks saga?

Base Goku survived multiple attacks from Hit in the manga too so that's not even a good argument especially as Hit couldn't kill him anyway because it's against the rules.

[pacz360]

There hasn't been a retcon you keep saying but what proves it?
Goku again traded blows with slim buu who's a lot stronger then before base goku traded blows with base copy vegeta. same copy vegeta that stomped ssj3 gotenks
Holding his own against a fired up beerus.
Base goku surving multiple hits from hit before going blue.

....I just told you...In the very post you quoted.

I also specifically said that the retcon if any would have happened with the start of the Future Trunks saga so why are you listing examples like Beerus, Gotenks and Hit which were beforethe Future Trunks saga?

Base Goku survived multiple attacks from Hit in the manga too so that's not even a good argument especially as Hit couldn't kill him anyway because it's against the rules.

Cause it still exist nothing says that theres been recton especially where goku acknowledge the whole copy vegeta deal when vegeta fought black in the future.
Nothing implies it whatsoever in the anime where this whole retcon where goku fought buu in base
Base goku should've been slaughter in his fight against buu yet held his own just fine.
Unless there's been a statement in the anime that says current ssj goku is weaker than he was at bog which we all know isn't considering how strong goku gotten ever since then nothing tells me there's been recton.

[Bullza]

Base goku should've been slaughter in his fight against buu yet held his own just fine.

And Goku's friend Buu would slaughter Goku in a light sparring match why?

If Goku was as strong as he was before and still as strong as Super Saiyan God then Buu shouldn't even be able to so much as move him never mind hurt him.

Unless there's been a statement in the anime that says current ssj goku is weaker than he was at bog which we all know isn't considering how strong goku gotten ever since then nothing tells me there's been recton.

If there was a statement then it would be a fact, not a theory or an opinion which I said that it was multiple times.

We know the power of Super Saiyan God was running through him at that specific time when he fought Beerus. That would appear not to be the case since then which of course would make him weaker.

Against Beerus, Goku in Base and then Super Saiyan were of a comparable level being as both were fueled by Super Saiyan Gods power running through him. That's definitely not true anymore though because Zamasu said Goku got tens of times stronger upon transforming which implies the God power wasn't running through either form.

[pacz360]

Base goku should've been slaughter in his fight against buu yet held his own just fine.

And Goku's friend Buu would slaughter Goku in a light sparring match why?

If Goku was as strong as he was before and still as strong as Super Saiyan God then Buu shouldn't even be able to so much as move him never mind hurt him.

Unless there's been a statement in the anime that says current ssj goku is weaker than he was at bog which we all know isn't considering how strong goku gotten ever since then nothing tells me there's been recton.

If there was a statement then it would be a fact, not a theory or an opinion which I said that it was multiple times.

We know the power of Super Saiyan God was running through him at that specific time when he fought Beerus. That would appear not to be the case since then which of course would make him weaker.

Against Beerus, Goku in Base and then Super Saiyan were of a comparable level being as both were fueled by Super Saiyan Gods power running through him. That's definitely not true anymore though because Zamasu said Goku got tens of times stronger upon transforming which implies the God power wasn't running through either form.

Yet goku didn't get slaughter in that fight in fact goku held his own even dodging and smacking away his ki blasts
He'll he didnt even came outta that spar worse for wear.
slim buu is much stronger than he was before given how goku commented his strength improved.
Given character like Frieza ,trunks and, 17 gotten massive boosts than before In super i don't see anything saying buu can't get any stronger too especially where his power was much higher than those three.
Where did it says goku power couldn't increase in his post
Ssj god ki form?

[Bullza]

Yet goku didn't get slaughter in that fight in fact goku held his own even dodging and smacking away his ki blasts

It was a sparring match. It means nothing when Krillin held his own against SSJB Goku or just any Goku. Buu wasn't about to cave his skull in.

slim buu is much stronger than he was before given how goku commented his strength improved.
Given character like Frieza ,trunks and, 17 gotten massive boosts than before In super i don't see anything saying buu can't get any stronger too especially where his power was much higher than those three.

That's nothing alike. Frieza's boost made sense and he just unlocked his latent potential over 4 months to reach that level. Trunks trained for 10 years and only upon achieving the Rage form did he reach that level.

Android 17 trained for 10 years. He can not be said to be at that level, he surpassed Super Saiyan Goku which may not be saying too much just yet.

Buu trained for like an hour with Mr Satan. His strength didn't multiple umpteen times over. He didn't go from being SSJ2 level to above God level in an hour.

Where did it says goku power couldn't increase in his post
Ssj god ki form?

You just need to think about it.

Super Saiyan Goku against Beerus was as strong as he was because of Super Saiyan God's power. Base Goku was of a comparable strength for the same reason. They are similar in power because they are running off of the same source of power.

This was also true for the movie.

But thats not how it is in the Future Trunks saga. He presumably still has the same 50x multiplier. It shouldn't work like that though. He didn't get 50 times stronger turning into Super Saiyan against Beerus in the movie did he? Nor did he get 50 times weaker reverting to Base in the anime.

Turning Super Saiyan doesn't multiple his separate God power. Therefore he wasn't using it against Zamasu.

[pacz360]

Yet goku didn't get slaughter in that fight in fact goku held his own even dodging and smacking away his ki blasts

It was a sparring match. It means nothing when Krillin held his own against SSJB Goku or just any Goku. Buu wasn't about to cave his skull in.

slim buu is much stronger than he was before given how goku commented his strength improved.
Given character like Frieza ,trunks and, 17 gotten massive boosts than before In super i don't see anything saying buu can't get any stronger too especially where his power was much higher than those three.

That's nothing alike. Frieza's boost made sense and he just unlocked his latent potential over 4 months to reach that level. Trunks trained for 10 years and only upon achieving the Rage form did he reach that level.

Android 17 trained for 10 years. He can not be said to be at that level, he surpassed Super Saiyan Goku which may not be saying too much just yet.

Buu trained for like an hour with Mr Satan. His strength didn't multiple umpteen times over. He didn't go from being SSJ2 level to above God level in an hour.

Where did it says goku power couldn't increase in his post
Ssj god ki form?

You just need to think about it.

Super Saiyan Goku against Beerus was as strong as he was because of Super Saiyan God's power. Base Goku was of a comparable strength for the same reason. They are similar in power because they are running off of the same source of power.

This was also true for the movie.

But thats not how it is in the Future Trunks saga. He presumably still has the same 50x multiplier. It shouldn't work like that though. He didn't get 50 times stronger turning into Super Saiyan against Beerus in the movie did he? Nor did he get 50 times weaker reverting to Base in the anime.

Turning Super Saiyan doesn't multiple his separate God power. Therefore he wasn't using it against Zamasu.

You keep bringing up krillin where 18 , gohan straight up said he stood no chance. goku was straight-up holding back on him especially where he said what would you do now touching now to him.
Frieza shit doesn't even really make any sense when you look at the guy didn't even knew about goku other ssj forms all he knew was that he surpassed majin buu yet in four months he surpassed god and shorted on blue in its debut by normal training.
Toriyama said the androids can get stronger via training and mentions Android 17 having great potential
And who to say buu can't get any stronger not everything takes the same level of years to get to god tiers levels.
17 forced goku to use ssjb where goku had no intentions of using the form
Dende said 17 was someone you would not want to have as an enemy Goku confirms this when fighting him If 17 was in-between SSJ2 and SSJ3 then why would goku use blue instead using ssj2 and ssj3 he did it to zamasu,black trunks yet not 17
Why because 17 was far beyond too powerful to those forms of his that had to use blue. We seen what happens if u put a ssj2 level fighters against ssj3 level fighters goku vs trunks was an example, ssj2 trunks Vs ssjb vegeta was another yet 17 held his own against ssjb goku while both where holding back
Ssj god=ssj I see no reason to buy ssj being weaker then he was in his post god ki training ssj forms where before getting blue was considered a small castle post Ssjg in rof.
Dbs is a simple how for kids not some complex math problem.
Trying to assume current goku ssj forms is weaker than it was in bog despite again training with whis, 3 years in the rosat and in ft saga is ridiculous.
It's nothing but Theory that in reality doesn't even exists in the show no matter how many times you push it.

[OLKv3]

Just remembered how on earth did trunk get so strong

He got on shotting by ss3 goku then a couple of episodes later with no training he skips all of the god training etc etc to pass goku and vegeta

Awful. There is no narrative consistency

No, he did not surpass them. He gained a new form of SS via rage that put him on a level that could hurt Goku Black. Goku and Vegeta could do that as well in SSB. As well, Future Trunks only did so well against Merged Zamasu thanks to the Genkidama Sword, Merged Zamasu being in a less combat-capable state after fighting SSB Vegetto, and the fused god's own hubris.

Where is this coming from? I see this said a lot in the fandom, but I can't find any evidence showing Zamasu was weaker after his scuffle with Vegito. He didn't seem any weaker at all, and was actually using a stronger form after his fight with Vegetto.

[TheMikado]

Just remembered how on earth did trunk get so strong

He got on shotting by ss3 goku then a couple of episodes later with no training he skips all of the god training etc etc to pass goku and vegeta

Awful. There is no narrative consistency

No, he did not surpass them. He gained a new form of SS via rage that put him on a level that could hurt Goku Black. Goku and Vegeta could do that as well in SSB. As well, Future Trunks only did so well against Merged Zamasu thanks to the Genkidama Sword, Merged Zamasu being in a less combat-capable state after fighting SSB Vegetto, and the fused god's own hubris.

Where is this coming from? I see this said a lot in the fandom, but I can't find any evidence showing Zamasu was weaker after his scuffle with Vegito. He didn't seem any weaker at all, and was actually using a stronger form after his fight with Vegetto.

Head canon gets stated as fact here...
This can most commonly be seen with "SSB has Superior ki control" where the only tangible benefit stated in-universe is the ability to combine SSB and Kaioken, yet the fandom has taken that simple sentence to create new abilities for the characters to explain various scenarios. Not to say either of these opinions are false, but until actually stated in universe as true it should be taken as fan-made theory. How much supporting evidence for those theories will depend on your interpretation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

An unfortunate consequence of misinterpretation from BOTH sides and a lack of clear information. The dialogue is there most of the time, it takes a little digging to really find what's needed, though.

As well, there's a perceived (not actual, PERCEIVED) double standard around here, as people are more than happy to state things like Two-Base Theory as "proven" when stating that "great Ki control" means "controlling Ki well" gets you "headcanon, stop using that", when speculation in general is all headcanon.

[TheMikado]

An unfortunate consequence of misinterpretation from BOTH sides and a lack of clear information. The dialogue is there most of the time, it takes a little digging to really find what's needed, though.

As well, there's a perceived (not actual, PERCEIVED) double standard around here, as people are more than happy to state things like Two-Base Theory as "proven" when stating that "great Ki control" means "controlling Ki well" gets you "headcanon, stop using that", when speculation in general is all headcanon.

Yeah..nah. The two base theory literally has the word THEORY in it. It is merely offered as a plausible explanation and is never stated a true fact, but merely the most likely example.
The difference is in the delivery.

When someone asks a question regarding Krillin's performance, the response is often this.

"SSB grant superior ki control, this means Goku can completely control his output level of power in SSB."

To less informed users this appears to be an informative post stating something that has been factually explained in or out of universe when it has in fact NOT been stated to be the case.
The two base theory, as I've stated cannot be proven however it can be supported and supporting evidence can be found. Further it can be used to help accurately predict future outcomes.
The two base theory predicted there should be a non SSJ form with God between the SSJ levels and SSB. This was definitively proven to be the case in the manga and thus the theory successfully predicted an outcome and in doing so strengthened its evidence. In no way, shape, or form is the two base theory casually stated as fact. That's the difference.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

An unfortunate consequence of misinterpretation from BOTH sides and a lack of clear information. The dialogue is there most of the time, it takes a little digging to really find what's needed, though.

As well, there's a perceived (not actual, PERCEIVED) double standard around here, as people are more than happy to state things like Two-Base Theory as "proven" when stating that "great Ki control" means "controlling Ki well" gets you "headcanon, stop using that", when speculation in general is all headcanon.

Yeah..nah. The two base theory literally has the word THEORY in it. It is merely offered as a plausible explanation and is never stated a true fact, but merely the most likely example.
The difference is in the delivery.

When someone asks a question regarding Krillin's performance, the response is often this.

"SSB grant superior ki control, this means Goku can completely control his output level of power in SSB."

To less informed users this appears to be an informative post stating something that has been factually explained in or out of universe when it has in fact NOT been stated to be the case.
The two base theory, as I've stated cannot be proven however it can be supported and supporting evidence can be found. Further it can be used to help accurately predict future outcomes.
The two base theory predicted there should be a non SSJ form with God between the SSJ levels and SSB. This was definitively proven to be the case in the manga and thus the theory successfully predicted an outcome and in doing so strengthened its evidence. In no way, shape, or form is the two base theory casually stated as fact. That's the difference.

Little wrinkle on that last one. According to the purest definition of Two-Base Theory, the manga actually DISPROVED it by bringing back SSG as a separate form. Unless there's another form that I'm missing that states that there is a base or SS form with the power of SSG not being SSB or SSG itself, I'm not seeing the logic in that.

Two-Base Theory is, in its purest sense, predicated on there being different power levels for the non-god forms that are arbitrarily used in specific instances against opponents because Goku and Vegeta are supposedly only at the same levels as they were in the Buu Saga and can't beat opponents stronger than that level through skill and regular power.

[TheMikado]

An unfortunate consequence of misinterpretation from BOTH sides and a lack of clear information. The dialogue is there most of the time, it takes a little digging to really find what's needed, though.

As well, there's a perceived (not actual, PERCEIVED) double standard around here, as people are more than happy to state things like Two-Base Theory as "proven" when stating that "great Ki control" means "controlling Ki well" gets you "headcanon, stop using that", when speculation in general is all headcanon.

Yeah..nah. The two base theory literally has the word THEORY in it. It is merely offered as a plausible explanation and is never stated a true fact, but merely the most likely example.
The difference is in the delivery.

When someone asks a question regarding Krillin's performance, the response is often this.

"SSB grant superior ki control, this means Goku can completely control his output level of power in SSB."

To less informed users this appears to be an informative post stating something that has been factually explained in or out of universe when it has in fact NOT been stated to be the case.
The two base theory, as I've stated cannot be proven however it can be supported and supporting evidence can be found. Further it can be used to help accurately predict future outcomes.
The two base theory predicted there should be a non SSJ form with God between the SSJ levels and SSB. This was definitively proven to be the case in the manga and thus the theory successfully predicted an outcome and in doing so strengthened its evidence. In no way, shape, or form is the two base theory casually stated as fact. That's the difference.

Little wrinkle on that last one. According to the purest definition of Two-Base Theory, the manga actually DISPROVED it by bringing back SSG as a separate form. Unless there's another form that I'm missing that states that there is a base or SS form with the power of SSG not being SSB or SSG itself, I'm not seeing the logic in that.

Two-Base Theory is, in its purest sense, predicated on there being different power levels for the non-god forms that are arbitrarily used in specific instances against opponents because Goku and Vegeta are supposedly only at the same levels as they were in the Buu Saga and can't beat opponents stronger than that level through skill and regular power.

Yes, you are missing something. When the two base theory was first being developed over a year ago the general theory was that God ki could possibly be turned on and off independent of SSJ. You weren't around for it, so I can't fault you for it, but many many people converted from complete disbelief like yourself to accepting it as a possibility. I've had pages long debates with Bullza over this and he now is a staunch defender of it being a possibility that this was the original intention. If I were you, I would read up on its development right here in this thread for a clearer understanding of what it is and isn't before tossing it aside.

SSG is merely a base Saiyan using God ki and not an actually SSJ form. SSGSS or SSB is an actually SSJ derivative and SSG is not, despite its name.
Basically power progression is this. No matter what you want to call the third level it exists in everything except the Anime. Which is what the two base theory predicted. That there should be a power level Goku can utilize between SSJ3 and SSB without using actually SSJ derivatives and basing it on God ki.
No God ki = Base Goku (weak)
No God ki = SSJ levels
God ki ON = Saiyan beyond God/2nd base/SSG
God ki ON = SSB

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That's where I fundamentally disagree.

The intention has been clear about God Ki only being present with actual gods: the Kaioshin, Gods of Destruction, and the god forms.

To simplify, I don't assume that there are any "turn on/off in base/SS" shenanigans going on, because from a production standpoint, that's WAY too complicated to understand. Going in blind the first time around, I didn't assume such a thing at first glance as a viewer, just that the powerscaling was weird but not much else.

As well, I fundamentally disagree on the idea of SSG being a base form with God Ki. It looks like a base, yes, but it's treated as a form one transforms into in both mediums, a distinct form that's only ever used outside of that form via SSB, which is the SS form using that other form's power. Like all other SS transformations before it, SSG is a form that a Saiyan can turn into to increase his power and change his physical appearance, in this case gaining God Ki, slimming down, and obtaining red base-form hair and irises. A Saiyan can't even access it unless he has performed a specific ritual or done intense and specialized training with an Angel like Whis.

Based on this interpretation, Two-Base Theory doesn't exist as a concept in the manga unless there are clear instances where Goku/Vegeta are fighting at godly level without accessing the SSG or SSB transformation.

In the anime, one COULD make the case that the theory exists......... if any attention was ever drawn to the discrepancies in-universe. The intent has been clear that Goku and Vegeta continually get stronger, but that they also require god forms to fight at godly levels. There is never an instance where Goku and Vegeta fight at godly levels in non-god forms after BoG and possibly RoF, and even with the latter a case could be made that they weren't god-level in non-god forms.

All other instances never draw attention, narratively speaking, to the idea of Goku and Vegeta use god power in non-god forms, merely that they are extremely strong even normally, either after absorbing godhood or being trained by a god's teacher. Goku is stronger than ever, same as Vegeta, but I personally believe that there is no need to formulate an arbitrary speculative hypothesis to explain instances of varying power, because the narrative provides reason enough. I feel that not enough people are willing to accept the less in-depth answers that are provided, but they are what they are, and we can't just ignore them and the implied intent.

[TheMikado]

^ I don't think you are understanding and unnecessarily getting caught up on a single word.
The only reason it is described as "Two base" is because in the anime that's how it would look. Obviously in the literally sense there being 2 forms that look exactly the same in the manga is incorrect, but that's not at all what it means and only those who look at the name and go "No." seem to have that swallow impression. Again you have a fundamental misunderstanding of even what the theory is so I do not see how you are able to argue against something you do not fully understand. If you are that interested in "disproving" the two base theory it would really behoove you to go back to its early stages of development.

You can disagree on whether they can turn off this "god power" independently of SSB or not, that's up to you. That is the crux of the theory, that's why its just a theory.

As I have said in the past, this concept of being able to switch on and off the god power DOES NOT exist in-universe in the anime at present.
Whether it SHOULD EXIST versus whether it EXISTS are two different matters. Officially, it does not exist in universe just like superior ki control granting the ability to hold back below base levels doesn't exist. However, I believe that was the INTENT in the Champa arc and forward regardless of the presentation.