Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

^ I don't think you are understanding and unnecessarily getting caught up on a single word.
The only reason it is described as "Two base" is because in the anime that's how it would look. Obviously in the literally sense there being 2 forms that look exactly the same in the manga is incorrect, but that's not at all what it means and only those who look at the name and go "No." seem to have that swallow impression. Again you have a fundamental misunderstanding of even what the theory is so I do not see how you are able to argue against something you do not fully understand. If you are that interested in "disproving" the two base theory it would really behoove you to go back to its early stages of development.

You can disagree on whether they can turn off this "god power" independently of SSB or not, that's up to you. That is the crux of the theory, that's why its just a theory.

As I have said in the past, this concept of being able to switch on and off the god power DOES NOT exist in-universe in the anime at present.
Whether it SHOULD EXIST versus whether it EXISTS are two different matters. Officially, it does not exist in universe just like superior ki control granting the ability to hold back below base levels doesn't exist. However, I believe that was the INTENT in the Champa arc and forward regardless of the presentation.

I saw how you worded it, and I responded based on that. It still sounds extremely arbitrary and tries to fit a reality around the theory instead of the theory trying to fit around reality. Basically, I'm still not getting why SSG is being treated as anything beyond another god form. I also don't understand, from the way you present it, why "turning on god power outside of SSB" is being conflated with the SSG form. Seriously, WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF CONFLATING THE TWO? I legitimately can't understand this train of thought, because it still reeks of arbitrary point-and-choose. Why is SSG even a part of the theory?

I'm sorry if I'm getting frustrated, but the way you put it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I need to clearly understand how this theory works, because despite how many times I read it out from you and others, it still doesn't make any goddamned sense from a deductive logic standpoint.

[TheMikado]

Ok I will say this one last time. The theory states that there should be a form which utilizes God ki but DOES NOT utilize the SSJ transformation.

In the anime this form does not exist leaving ONLY the SSB form which utilizes BOTH God ki and SSJ. The theory states that there should be a form which ONLY utilizes God ki power to some extent but DOES NOT stack SSJ on top of it. Further that the God level power can be completely disabled allowing normal Buu level base and its subsequent SSJ levels. In the manga this criteria is fulfilled by the SSG form, it is theorized that there should be a form regardless of what it looks like or is named in the anime too. The issue is that this form is not implied in universe and for all intents and purposes does not exist in anime. Again this is all information that has been converted before previously in this thread. The SSG form simply fits in the same exact slot and allows the same exact scaling and meets the same criteria. The theory is where SSG sits in the manga is the exact hole in the powerscaling that needed to be filled and that's the exact place it situated narratively regardless of what it is or looks like.

To recap it was theorized to meet this criteria.
None SSJ access to God ki
Complete disabling of God ki
Power progression sitting between SSJ3 and SSB.

Both a second base in the anime and SSG would meet this criteria if a 2nd base existed in the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

I won't be relinquishing my personal distaste of the idea and logic of Two-Base Theory, but now that I know its premise clearly, I can debate with proponents of it better.

[Bullza]

You keep bringing up krillin where 18 , gohan straight up said he stood no chance. goku was straight-up holding back on him especially where he said what would you do now touching now to him.

Right and Buu could have been holding back as well which we know he would be to some extent anyone because he was sparring with a friend. So Goku's fight with Buu doesn't prove that much in comparison to previous fights prior to the Future Trunks saga.

And who to say buu can't get any stronger not everything takes the same level of years to get to god tiers levels.

He was stronger. He's just not going to be many times stronger just from training with a normal human for one hour.

yet 17 held his own against ssjb goku while both where holding back

So you can say nothing on it without knowing how much either of them were holding back by. SSJB Goku can hold back enough to match Krillin so it doesn't mean anything that Android 17 can match SSJB Goku when holding back.

We don't know how much Android 17 was holding back either. It's presumptuous to say much more than he's stronger than SSJ Goku and that's it for now.

Trying to assume current goku ssj forms is weaker than it was in bog despite again training with whis, 3 years in the rosat and in ft saga is ridiculous.

Current Super Saiyan Goku is not at the level of Gods unlike Super Saiyan Goku back when fighting Beerus. It's not ridiculous, he wouldn't have lost strength or got weaker.

His Base and Super Saiyan form were boosted up to God level at the time because the power of Super Saiyan God was running through those forms.

Now that same power is not running through those forms so they're back to normal so he's not God level anymore which is what the Kai's all but confirm.

It's nothing but Theory that in reality doesn't even exists in the show no matter how many times you push it.

Yeah...that's why it's a theory...

You don't know the reality just like nobody else in this thread can tell you what's going on.

[Ki Breaker]

Here's a theory, now I want you to remain with me on this, I will simplify it as much as possible

We were told Goku won't be using SS2 and SS3 from now on, ki consumption and other disadvantages being a part of them..

That leaves only two powerups for him to rely on, SS and Blue..

Super previously ignored this, but seems to be taking it into account now..

Let's say goku needed some time to completely switch off SS3 and SS2 as he was taking this time to fully master blue so he can ditch other forms completely..

Until recently using SS2 was still overall better than SSB because he hadn't mastered blue fully yet, as we see from Vegeta in rosat that blue could have been powered up further..

Now, goku has reached the limits of blue and completely mastered it, ditching other forms except SS is the better option now overall..

So it goes like it was intended to now,
•Goku fights in base
•He goes SS to Powerup further, which is around FPSS to SS2 now
•To powerup further from this, he goes Blue
Now, blue can vary it's power from lowest to its maximum without any more drawbacks perfectly

Blue outputs SS2 power when needed, SS3 when required and it goes all the way up to maximum output when called upon..

This explains why he busts out SSB all the time recently, it's the only way to Powerup further for him now, how much will he powerup depends on the situation..

As to why SS is around FPSS to SS2 now
It has been shown that Goku's base is stronger in some cases and in some cases it's around buu saga above levels..

This theory takes into account the two base theory..

Goku is now going towards using his blue transformation all the time after SS, blue requires god ki, it also assumes god ki isn't simply condensation your ki but it indeed is a different type of ki which can he trained by condensing your ki tightly..
His god ki usage puts a a toll on his ki reserves, if he uses hyper powered base which he used to fight freeza he would be weakening blues time and overall power, as blue itself fully relies in god ki...

Goku deemed it unnecessary to have super powered base when going blue gives him more time and energy to work with, and thus his base went back to low levels..

This explains most of the scenarios without making Every character go god levels in unexplained ways

[pacz360]

Here's a theory, now I want you to remain with me on this, I will simplify it as much as possible

We were told Goku won't be using SS2 and SS3 from now on, ki consumption and other disadvantages being a part of them..

That leaves only two powerups for him to rely on, SS and Blue..

Super previously ignored this, but seems to be taking it into account now..

Let's say goku needed some time to completely switch off SS3 and SS2 as he was taking this time to fully master blue so he can ditch other forms completely..

Until recently using SS2 was still overall better than SSB because he hadn't mastered blue fully yet, as we see from Vegeta in rosat that blue could have been powered up further..

Now, goku has reached the limits of blue and completely mastered it, ditching other forms except SS is the better option now overall..

So it goes like it was intended to now,
•Goku fights in base
•He goes SS to Powerup further, which is around FPSS to SS2 now
•To powerup further from this, he goes Blue
Now, blue can vary it's power from lowest to its maximum without any more drawbacks perfectly

Blue outputs SS2 power when needed, SS3 when required and it goes all the way up to maximum output when called upon..

This explains why he busts out SSB all the time recently, it's the only way to Powerup further for him now, how much will he powerup depends on the situation..

As to why SS is around FPSS to SS2 now
It has been shown that Goku's base is stronger in some cases and in some cases it's around buu saga above levels..

This theory takes into account the two base theory..

Goku is now going towards using his blue transformation all the time after SS, blue requires god ki, it also assumes god ki isn't simply condensation your ki but it indeed is a different type of ki which can he trained by condensing your ki tightly..
His god ki usage puts a a toll on his ki reserves, if he uses hyper powered base which he used to fight freeza he would be weakening blues time and overall power, as blue itself fully relies in god ki...

Goku deemed it unnecessary to have super powered base when going blue gives him more time and energy to work with, and thus his base went back to low levels..

This explains most of the scenarios without making Every character go god levels in unexplained ways

Or hear me out toei really doesn't give a shit and characters in the series are gonna get massive power boosts far higher than they ever did at z and fans need to accept that and move on instead creating multiple Theories that end up being headcanon.

[pacz360]

You keep bringing up krillin where 18 , gohan straight up said he stood no chance. goku was straight-up holding back on him especially where he said what would you do now touching now to him.

Right and Buu could have been holding back as well which we know he would be to some extent anyone because he was sparring with a friend. So Goku's fight with Buu doesn't prove that much in comparison to previous fights prior to the Future Trunks saga.

And who to say buu can't get any stronger not everything takes the same level of years to get to god tiers levels.

He was stronger. He's just not going to be many times stronger just from training with a normal human for one hour.

yet 17 held his own against ssjb goku while both where holding back

So you can say nothing on it without knowing how much either of them were holding back by. SSJB Goku can hold back enough to match Krillin so it doesn't mean anything that Android 17 can match SSJB Goku when holding back.

We don't know how much Android 17 was holding back either. It's presumptuous to say much more than he's stronger than SSJ Goku and that's it for now.

Trying to assume current goku ssj forms is weaker than it was in bog despite again training with whis, 3 years in the rosat and in ft saga is ridiculous.

Current Super Saiyan Goku is not at the level of Gods unlike Super Saiyan Goku back when fighting Beerus. It's not ridiculous, he wouldn't have lost strength or got weaker.

His Base and Super Saiyan form were boosted up to God level at the time because the power of Super Saiyan God was running through those forms.

Now that same power is not running through those forms so they're back to normal so he's not God level anymore which is what the Kai's all but confirm.

It's nothing but Theory that in reality doesn't even exists in the show no matter how many times you push it.

Yeah...that's why it's a theory...

You don't know the reality just like nobody else in this thread can tell you what's going on.

And nothing indicates that goku and vegeta all of sudden despite there training got reduced to the same level it was pre bog due to the multiple evidence that says otherwise.
Already said my piece on the other points and it stays the same and it ain't budging until theres absolute best.
Post ssjgod goku was referred to as small tree in comparison to beerus back in rof and again this was goku with the Ssjg Power in him meaning Ssjg is not truly on the level while blue is.
https://youtu.be/GymCRMat6TI
>Delivered multiple powerful blows to post god ki ssj goku
>goku up in the sky trying to recover from said blows
>Goku going straight to blue
>Goku saying he didn't even intend to use blue at all in their fight meaning goku didn't think 17 would be strong enough to push him to it.
>trading blows with ssjb while both were holding back
>goku confirm that dende was right and that he's glad 17 not an enemy
Evidence says otherwise buddy and all of it points to Android 17 being god tier level and nothing goes against it.
And bringing back krillin
https://youtu.be/0ypX_qIT94o
Base goku tanking all of his attacks
Krillin had to hide from ssj goku and tried going for the Ringout
>Goku having no problem went blue to test him
"What'll you do now" meaning he's testing him
Gohan and 18 confirms the difference in power between them.
>Krillin barely budging it with all his might while goku was holding back
>Android 18 had to come save his ass
>Krillin was practically shaken while goku was all find and dandy
Yep definitely the same except goku was obviously testing krillin while with he didn't think he had to use blue against him

[Bullza]

And nothing indicates that goku and vegeta all of sudden despite there training got reduced to the same level it was pre bog due to the multiple evidence that says otherwise.

The training would be irrelevant with the theory.

Post ssjgod goku was referred to as small tree in comparison to beerus back in rof and again this was goku with the Ssjg Power in him meaning Ssjg is not truly on the level while blue is.

That wouldn't really matter. Close to Beerus or not they were still at the level of Gods. Whis said they'd reached the level where they could sense such God Ki. Trunks for example was not at this level unlike Frieza.

Frieza could sense God Ki and Trunks could not.

Evidence says otherwise buddy and all of it points to Android 17 being god tier level and nothing goes against it.

It's evidence of nothing. Android 17 holding back to an unknown extent held his own against SSJB Goku holding back to an unknown extent. He could have been holding back more or less.

Until Android 17 fights a confirmed God level character fighting seriously then he isn't confirmed to be God level just yet.

[pacz360]

And nothing indicates that goku and vegeta all of sudden despite there training got reduced to the same level it was pre bog due to the multiple evidence that says otherwise.

The training would be irrelevant with the theory.

Post ssjgod goku was referred to as small tree in comparison to beerus back in rof and again this was goku with the Ssjg Power in him meaning Ssjg is not truly on the level while blue is.

That wouldn't really matter. Close to Beerus or not they were still at the level of Gods. Whis said they'd reached the level where they could sense such God Ki. Trunks for example was not at this level unlike Frieza.

Frieza could sense God Ki and Trunks could not.

Evidence says otherwise buddy and all of it points to Android 17 being god tier level and nothing goes against it.

It's evidence of nothing. Android 17 holding back to an unknown extent held his own against SSJB Goku holding back to an unknown extent. He could have been holding back more or less.

Until Android 17 fights a confirmed God level character fighting seriously then he isn't confirmed to be God level just yet.

Forcing goku to use blue while he had no intentions of it says otherwise goku used ssj2 and ssj3 he used against trunks,zamasu, black yet not 17
I mean by your theory ssj2 and ssj3 should be enough to handle 17 yet goku had to go in his strongest form to avoid being dominated.
Goku even said he's glad 17 not an enemy why would he say that if 17 wasn't in the god tier range base goku is already stronger than ssj3 level opponents.
Dende who can sense god ki and knows how strong goku and vegeta are said that 17 is stronger than ever it would be terrifying if he was still an enemy. Why say that if 17 wasn't around god tier levels of power? What's the point of hyping him up if he's only ssj2 or ssj3 level and we've seen what happens to characters around that level if they fight god tier level fighters.
Evidence says 17 is in god tier levels sorry that your ridiculous Theory doesn't allow it.

[TheMikado]

Or here me out toei really doesn't give shit and characters in the series are gonna get massive power boosts far higher than they ever did at z and fans need to accept that and move on instead creating multiple Theories that end up being headcanon.

The two base theory, or should I say there actually being a 2nd base in the anime is definitely long past them actually making it so in universe. I think we gave them too much credit by thinking they would attempt to actually explain it in universe. Instead they assumed their target audience are all idiots and morons who can't follow a cohesive narrative from week to week and please don't use the "kid's show" argument. Six year olds know this stuff doesn't make sense.

That's why I have taken to pointing out explicitly, there is no "two base theory" "ki control holding back" etc. These are fan made concepts to explain that really no one gave 2 $h*ts about consistency except us. Only that in order for things to make "sense" these concepts "should" exist in the story.

[pacz360]

Or here me out toei really doesn't give shit and characters in the series are gonna get massive power boosts far higher than they ever did at z and fans need to accept that and move on instead creating multiple Theories that end up being headcanon.

The two base theory, or should I say there actually being a 2nd base in the anime is definitely long past them actually making it so in universe. I think we gave them too much credit by thinking they would attempt to actually explain it in universe. Instead they assumed their target audience are all idiots and morons who can't follow a cohesive narrative from week to week and please don't use the "kid's show" argument. Six year olds know this stuff doesn't make sense.

That's why I have taken to pointing out explicitly, there is no "two base theory" "ki control holding back" etc. These are fan made concepts to explain that really no one gave 2 $h*ts about consistency except us. Only that in order for things to make "sense" these concepts "should" exist in the story.

When you have Frieza surpassing everybody and there grandmother than including ssjg and shitting on blue in its debut in four months in the movie and super hell when you trunks as a ssj2 blocking a blows from ssjr black that was intended for ssjb goku should tell what was going to happen in Super.
Characters in super are simply going get higher power boosts than they ever did in z.
The sooner they accept that the better instead creating theories which ends up being stated as facts.

[Ki Breaker]

Here's a theory, now I want you to remain with me on this, I will simplify it as much as possible

We were told Goku won't be using SS2 and SS3 from now on, ki consumption and other disadvantages being a part of them..

That leaves only two powerups for him to rely on, SS and Blue..

Super previously ignored this, but seems to be taking it into account now..

Let's say goku needed some time to completely switch off SS3 and SS2 as he was taking this time to fully master blue so he can ditch other forms completely..

Until recently using SS2 was still overall better than SSB because he hadn't mastered blue fully yet, as we see from Vegeta in rosat that blue could have been powered up further..

Now, goku has reached the limits of blue and completely mastered it, ditching other forms except SS is the better option now overall..

So it goes like it was intended to now,
•Goku fights in base
•He goes SS to Powerup further, which is around FPSS to SS2 now
•To powerup further from this, he goes Blue
Now, blue can vary it's power from lowest to its maximum without any more drawbacks perfectly

Blue outputs SS2 power when needed, SS3 when required and it goes all the way up to maximum output when called upon..

This explains why he busts out SSB all the time recently, it's the only way to Powerup further for him now, how much will he powerup depends on the situation..

As to why SS is around FPSS to SS2 now
It has been shown that Goku's base is stronger in some cases and in some cases it's around buu saga above levels..

This theory takes into account the two base theory..

Goku is now going towards using his blue transformation all the time after SS, blue requires god ki, it also assumes god ki isn't simply condensation your ki but it indeed is a different type of ki which can he trained by condensing your ki tightly..
His god ki usage puts a a toll on his ki reserves, if he uses hyper powered base which he used to fight freeza he would be weakening blues time and overall power, as blue itself fully relies in god ki...

Goku deemed it unnecessary to have super powered base when going blue gives him more time and energy to work with, and thus his base went back to low levels..

This explains most of the scenarios without making Every character go god levels in unexplained ways

Or hear me out toei really doesn't give a shit and characters in the series are gonna get massive power boosts far higher than they ever did at z and fans need to accept that and move on instead creating multiple Theories that end up being headcanon.

That while being true, it's a necessity there is some form of logic, even if it's in the from of headcanon, otherwise it's a full gag show, which it clearly dosen't aim to be..

I find my theory filling most of the holes well, even if it's headcanon, it's my preferred headcanon now..
Gotta rely on something if the show ain't gonna give it

[pacz360]

Here's a theory, now I want you to remain with me on this, I will simplify it as much as possible

We were told Goku won't be using SS2 and SS3 from now on, ki consumption and other disadvantages being a part of them..

That leaves only two powerups for him to rely on, SS and Blue..

Super previously ignored this, but seems to be taking it into account now..

Let's say goku needed some time to completely switch off SS3 and SS2 as he was taking this time to fully master blue so he can ditch other forms completely..

Until recently using SS2 was still overall better than SSB because he hadn't mastered blue fully yet, as we see from Vegeta in rosat that blue could have been powered up further..

Now, goku has reached the limits of blue and completely mastered it, ditching other forms except SS is the better option now overall..

So it goes like it was intended to now,
•Goku fights in base
•He goes SS to Powerup further, which is around FPSS to SS2 now
•To powerup further from this, he goes Blue
Now, blue can vary it's power from lowest to its maximum without any more drawbacks perfectly

Blue outputs SS2 power when needed, SS3 when required and it goes all the way up to maximum output when called upon..

This explains why he busts out SSB all the time recently, it's the only way to Powerup further for him now, how much will he powerup depends on the situation..

As to why SS is around FPSS to SS2 now
It has been shown that Goku's base is stronger in some cases and in some cases it's around buu saga above levels..

This theory takes into account the two base theory..

Goku is now going towards using his blue transformation all the time after SS, blue requires god ki, it also assumes god ki isn't simply condensation your ki but it indeed is a different type of ki which can he trained by condensing your ki tightly..
His god ki usage puts a a toll on his ki reserves, if he uses hyper powered base which he used to fight freeza he would be weakening blues time and overall power, as blue itself fully relies in god ki...

Goku deemed it unnecessary to have super powered base when going blue gives him more time and energy to work with, and thus his base went back to low levels..

This explains most of the scenarios without making Every character go god levels in unexplained ways

Or hear me out toei really doesn't give a shit and characters in the series are gonna get massive power boosts far higher than they ever did at z and fans need to accept that and move on instead creating multiple Theories that end up being headcanon.

That while being true, it's a necessity there is some form of logic, even if it's in the from of headcanon, otherwise it's a full gag show, which it clearly dosen't aim to be..

I find my theory filling most of the holes well, even if it's headcanon, it's my preferred headcanon now..
Gotta rely on something if the show ain't gonna give it

Which again again ends ups being treated as facts around here which isn't.
This is db krillin training in one year with kami bumped him from being bitch slapped by raditz to one shotting multiple raditz level beings in the saiyan saga
Not to mention the zenkais that happened on namek where vegeta went from getting stomped by recomme to holding his own against first form Frieza or goku getting another which helped from dealing surpassing ginyu with kk to taking on final form Freeza or gero creating three androids that can shit on ssj's and Frieza despite having no knowledge of them at all.

[Ki Breaker]

Or hear me out toei really doesn't give a shit and characters in the series are gonna get massive power boosts far higher than they ever did at z and fans need to accept that and move on instead creating multiple Theories that end up being headcanon.

That while being true, it's a necessity there is some form of logic, even if it's in the from of headcanon, otherwise it's a full gag show, which it clearly dosen't aim to be..

I find my theory filling most of the holes well, even if it's headcanon, it's my preferred headcanon now..
Gotta rely on something if the show ain't gonna give it

Which again again ends ups being treated as facts around here which isn't.

When there are no facts given by default, this tends to happen..
Either way, my post clearly mentions theory, if anyone decides to take it as a gospel of truth it's their incompetence not my problem..

[DBZ Macky]

It's alright to have "head-canon" when the show itself doesn't bother to explain anything. What's not alright though is claiming your head-canon as fact and/or spreading misinformation. Personally, I have no issue at all with the two-base theory, and there definitely seems to be some confusing stuff going on with base Goku's power.

Things like getting hit "off-guard" and "teamwork" have been inconsistent in even the original Manga. Giran wasn't able to faze Goku at all even when he was off-guard, yet Piccolo (With Gohan and Kuririn's Ki) could send True Form Freeza flying despite the insane power gap.
In the 23rd Budokai, Piccolo claimed that even if Tenshinhan and co. ganged up on Piccolo, they'd be able to make little to no difference, despite their power gap (according to official battle powers) being less than even 2x. Yet somehow "teamwork" is being given more importance than raw power now.

If the series itself is inconsistent at times, then it shouldn't do any harm to make up your own theories, right? It's easy enough to tell who is stronger than whom, it really just becomes more difficult when you focus on "gaps" and such. Krillin's never going to win against any form of Goku, I can bet on that. Sure, he may be able to put up an admirable fight, but win? Never.

Besides, it's already been stated that a person's Ki and therefore battle power is affected by his courage and his true character. So "the power of friendship", "rage boosts" and "breaking limits" aren't completely baseless. Also, Speedster's post about Goku holding back against Arale is concrete proof that Goku is definitely holding back against his opponents.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say that the best way to understand powerscaling in the show is to look at it from different angles.

You have the "don't matter" angle, where any form of it is foregone in the name of entertainment, the "acknowledged but still doesn't matter" angle, where it's acknowledged but explained why it's not as important", and the "it matters" angle, where it's utilized in its Kanzenshuu-centric sense.

Personally, I prefer the middle option. Acknowledging that power levels used to be an important thing but then going on about why they're being foregone for other venues is a bold but admirable narrative direction, in my own personal opinion. I know that a lot of folks around here don't see it that way, but you know, different strokes for different folks.

[apex_pretador]

Wait, couldn't it be that Super Saiyan doesn't give Gohan anywhere near as much power boost as it should?

[BWri]

Wait, couldn't it be that Super Saiyan doesn't give Gohan anywhere near as much power boost as it should?

I don't think it gives anyone the amount of power boost that it should anymore. That's why we see Goku fighting in base so often and doing fairly well. I'm mainly thinking of the Hit fight. Even if he understood the time stop ability, since he essentially beats it by overpowering it, Blue Vegeta should have been able to do the same compared to base Goky but that wasn't the case.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Wait, couldn't it be that Super Saiyan doesn't give Gohan anywhere near as much power boost as it should?

I don't think it gives anyone the amount of power boost that it should anymore. That's why we see Goku fighting in base so often and doing fairly well. I'm mainly thinking of the Hit fight. Even if he understood the time stop ability, since he essentially beats it by overpowering it, Blue Vegeta should have been able to do the same compared to base Goky but that wasn't the case.

Well, it took Goku first learning how to counter the Time-Skip in the first place, THEN powering up to such a degree that he'd be beyond Hit to a ludicrous level just to counter him advancing so quickly, and even then still ended up not being quite enough because Hit was still using it after advancing it FURTHER.

Vegeta had none of this going for him, especially since he was the first one in and was completely unprepared for what Hit was dishing out.

It was only after his climactic fight with Hit that Goku figured out how to no-sell Hit's Time-Skip, admitted by the assassin himself that it wouldn't work anymore. Of course, some people think this is due to pure power, but I don't personally believe so. The intent seems to be that Goku has figured out that little trick, so it won't work now that he knows exactly what it's all about and can counter it accordingly.

[Bullza]

Forcing goku to use blue while he had no intentions of it says otherwise goku used ssj2 and ssj3 he used against trunks,zamasu, black yet not 17

And Goku used SSJ2 against Black who was stronger than Trunks. He used Base against Buu but then Super Saiyan against the seemingly weaker Gohan and then Blue against the vastly weaker Krillin. Beerus is stronger than them all and he used his Base.

Dende who can sense god ki and knows how strong goku and vegeta are said that 17 is stronger than ever it would be terrifying if he was still an enemy.

He also first said that he was just as strong as ever before saying no he's actually even stronger. Kind of weird that Android 17 would be hundreds of times stronger and yet first made the claim he was as strong as ever.

He's an Android anyway so e doesn't have any idea how strong he is.

What's the point of hyping him up if he's only ssj2 or ssj3 level and we've seen what happens to characters around that level if they fight god tier level fighters.

What hype? Where was this hype? They just introduced him after a long time, that's all.

If anyone had hype then it was Trunks and yet upon introduction he was only SSJ2 level or SSJ3 level, he struggled against Dabura. He was nowhere near God level, obviously as he couldn't sense God Ki.

So that idea doesn't work. All he did was fight a God Tier fighter that was holding back by an unknown amount, something Krillin did. Other than that the only thing we can say for sure is he's stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.