Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

Forcing goku to use blue while he had no intentions of it says otherwise goku used ssj2 and ssj3 he used against trunks,zamasu, black yet not 17

And Goku used SSJ2 against Black who was stronger than Trunks. He used Base against Buu but then Super Saiyan against the seemingly weaker Gohan and then Blue against the vastly weaker Krillin. Beerus is stronger than them all and he used his Base.

Dende who can sense god ki and knows how strong goku and vegeta are said that 17 is stronger than ever it would be terrifying if he was still an enemy.

He also first said that he was just as strong as ever before saying no he's actually even stronger. Kind of weird that Android 17 would be hundreds of times stronger and yet first made the claim he was as strong as ever.

He's an Android anyway so e doesn't have any idea how strong he is.

What's the point of hyping him up if he's only ssj2 or ssj3 level and we've seen what happens to characters around that level if they fight god tier level fighters.

What hype? Where was this hype? They just introduced him after a long time, that's all.

If anyone had hype then it was Trunks and yet upon introduction he was only SSJ2 level or SSJ3 level, he struggled against Dabura. He was nowhere near God level, obviously as he couldn't sense God Ki.

So that idea doesn't work. All he did was fight a God Tier fighter that was holding back by an unknown amount, something Krillin did. Other than that the only thing we can say for sure is he's stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

Amazing your still pushing this krillin bs despite the fact that goku was obviously testing when he literally was testing him,
Gohan train for 8 months and again with piccolo nothing says gohan didn't get stronger
Neither goku or black going all out in their fight so your point?
Yet dende knew how strong he was and said he would be terrifying if he was an enemy
Also he said rather he's stronger then ever your point?
Doesn't change that goku confirmed that dende was right
Android 17 outright push goku to use blue where goku didn't have any intention to use the form.
Krillin got his ass smacked by base gohan who was holding back goku never was even forced to use blue against krillin
Toei hyping his ass to be the ultimate Android
Literally saying he's stronger than ever
Literally made a promo fof his return.
Having trading blows with blue goku while both holding back without getting steamed rolled like trunks did against vegeta
So yeah it actually does work considering goku never was pressured by krillin to use blue while 17 straight up did
Goku has ssj2 and ssj3 if he used against those three I've mentioned then there no reason why he couldn't use it against 17.
17 had 10 years to get to that level if Frieza can do it 4 months than Android 17 shouldn't have any problems getting there.
By all means tell me how krillin situation was comparable to 17 where the former was tested by goku who he had to hide from when the guys turn ssj and the latter outright pushed goku to the use form where he had no intentions to whatsoever
You would had a point if you know krillin traded blows with ssjb goku except it didn't happened and 18 saving his ass where he barely budged the thing
17 is god tier level you denying evidence isn't gonna change it.

[Bullza]

Amazing your still pushing this krillin bs despite the fact that goku was obviously testing when he literally was testing him,

He was testing Buu and Trunks as well, still didn't go Blue.

Gohan train for 8 months and again with piccolo nothing says gohan didn't get stronger

Yet he could well be weaker than Piccolo as a Super Saiyan who could still be below Buu. He trained for 8 months whereas Goku who was already hundreds of times stronger then trained for 3 years. Then got boosted up in the following saga yet they were still equal.

Neither goku or black going all out in their fight so your point?

Just like Goku didn't go all out against Android 17.

Yet dende knew how strong he was and said he would be terrifying if he was an enemy

No he's an Android. They said Androids can't be sensed. Dende can't sense Android 17's power.

Android 17 outright push goku to use blue where goku didn't have any intention to use the form.

Which still doesn't mean he was God Tier as he was only shown to be able to hold his own against SSJB Goku holding back to an epunknown extent.

Krillin got his ass smacked by base gohan who was holding back goku never was even forced to use blue against krillin

He still forced him to use Super Saiyan though even though Base Goku without any retcon would be as strong as Super Saiyan God. That makes no sense for obvious reasons.

Toei hyping his ass to be the ultimate Android

No they didn't.

Literally saying he's stronger than ever

Which doesn't mean anything considering his former strength by current standards is worthless anyway. Him being stronger than ever doesn't mean he has to be hundreds of times stronger than ever.

Literally made a promo fof his return

They did the same for Trunks who was confirmed to not be God level.

Having trading blows with blue goku while both holding back without getting steamed rolled like trunks did against vegeta

The key word there being that Goku held back. Trading blows with someone holding back doesn't make him God level. Krillin matched Kamehameha's with Goku and he's not God level either. Vegeta wasn't said to have held back either.

Goku has ssj2 and ssj3 if he used against those three I've mentioned then there no reason why he couldn't use it against 17.

Same can be said for other instances in the show. Goku could have used those forms against Krillin.

17 had 10 years to get to that level if Frieza can do it 4 months than Android 17 shouldn't have any problems getting there.

Frieza was made out to be a prodigy whose overwhelming strength just came naturally to him. Him actually training and unleashing his full potential made him God level as was proven by him matching a serious SSJB Goku and winning.

All Android 17 was said to have done was train for 10 years. Trunks also said he trained for over 10 years too and he wasn't God level. Your logic is off on this one.

You would had a point if you know krillin traded blows with ssjb goku except it didn't happened and 18 saving his ass where he barely budged the thing

Krillin faded Kamehameha's with SSJB Goku and even forced it back. Krillin isn't God level though because we know Goku held back. This is the exact same reason why Android 17 isn't God level.

17 is god tier level you denying evidence isn't gonna change it

There is no evidence so there's nothing to change. Android 17 whilst holding back to an unknown extent held his own against SSJB Goku holding back to an unknown extent. That's all that's known therefore there's nothing at all to say he's God level.

It's merely assumption and nothing more for the time being.

[pacz360]

Amazing your still pushing this krillin bs despite the fact that goku was obviously testing when he literally was testing him,

He was testing Buu and Trunks as well, still didn't go Blue.
Cause neither wre strong enough to push him

Gohan train for 8 months and again with piccolo nothing says gohan didn't get stronger

Yet he could well be weaker than Piccolo as a Super Saiyan who could still be below Buu. He trained for 8 months whereas Goku who was already hundreds of times stronger then trained for 3 years. Then got boosted up in the following saga yet they were still equal.
We saw gohan and him fight to a stalemate in u6 buu hadn't shown signs of geing stronger than either of them

Neither goku or black going all out in their fight so your point?

Just like Goku didn't go all out against Android 17.
Just like 17

Yet dende knew how strong he was and said he would be terrifying if he was an enemy

No he's an Android. They said Androids can't be sensed. Dende can't sense Android 17's power.
Yet dende said he gotten stronger than ever why say that if you can't sense him?

Android 17 outright push goku to use blue where goku didn't have any intention to use the form.

Which still doesn't mean he was God Tier as he was only shown to be able to hold his own against SSJB Goku holding back to an epunknown extent.
I don't see anything that points to goku holding back to an extreme amount like he did with krillin.

Krillin got his ass smacked by base gohan who was holding back goku never was even forced to use blue against krillin

He still forced him to use Super Saiyan though even though Base Goku without any retcon would be as strong as Super Saiyan God. That makes no sense for obvious reasons.
Only to to avoid a ringout base gohan smacked him like a fly while holding back,not to mention goku tanking all of his attacks
Without any injury

Toei hyping his ass to be the ultimate Android

No they didn't.
They literally did ain't my fault your ignore evidence.

Literally saying he's stronger than ever

Which doesn't mean anything considering his former strength by current standards is worthless anyway. Him being stronger than ever doesn't mean he has to be hundreds of times stronger than ever.
uh it does no point of hyping him up and having tori comment on his potential,among other shit if he wasn't gonna be worth shit to ssjb goku
They hyped frieza as when he came back and bam he's blue level in four months
Trunks went from ssj2 to blue tier in two days.

Literally made a promo fof his return

They did the same for Trunks who was confirmed to not be God level.
Mind showing me where they hyped up his strength if not no.

Having trading blows with blue goku while both holding back without getting steamed rolled like trunks did against vegeta

The key word there being that Goku held back. Trading blows with someone holding back doesn't make him God level. Krillin matched Kamehameha's with Goku and he's not God level either. Vegeta wasn't said to have held back either.
Krillin was literally struggling to even budge goku kamehameha to the point 18 saving his ass no where near comparable
I see nothing that implied vegeta was going all out on trunks in their spar.

Goku has ssj2 and ssj3 if he used against those three I've mentioned then there no reason why he couldn't use it against 17.

Same can be said for other instances in the show. Goku could have used those forms against Krillin.
why would he? Ssj2 nor 3 is his peak He wanted to see what krillin could do to against someone around ssjb level of power given guys like bergamo,hit,toppo and jiren are going to be there so why not see if he could come up with a plan to overcome the gap between.
He literally said that to krillin when he went blue

17 had 10 years to get to that level if Frieza can do it 4 months than Android 17 shouldn't have any problems getting there.

Frieza was made out to be a prodigy whose overwhelming strength just came naturally to him. Him actually training and unleashing his full potential made him God level as was proven by him matching a serious SSJB Goku and winning.

All Android 17 was said to have done was train for 10 years. Trunks also said he trained for over 10 years too and he wasn't God level. Your logic is off on this one.
Nah my logic is fine given the nature in super
Please show me where in frieza potential that said he could surpass ssjg and the rest in four months by beating a random mook all Freeza knew is that goku surpassed buu not that he even attained ssjg or fought beerus, if anything he should be ssj3 level at yet shitted on that in four months
Akira said the same thing about 17 in the recent scan with him and goku where he said 17 has amazing potential
Yet trunks got strong enough to block a blow from ssjr black where before he got stomped by base black as a ssj2 and 17 was thanks gero set at level that allowed him to shit on ssj without training
Akira confirms that they can get stronger by training and he had 10 years to get to that level.

You would had a point if you know krillin traded blows with ssjb goku except it didn't happened and 18 saving his ass where he barely budged the thing

Krillin faded Kamehameha's with SSJB Goku and even forced it back. Krillin isn't God level though because we know Goku held back. This is the exact same reason why Android 17 isn't God level.
Yeah a little and thats it and was shaking hinself to death while 17 not only was ably to use barrier to block but came out of the explosion fine and clash with goku then later exchange blows with goku which goku confims that he's glad he's not an enemy why would goku said that if 17 wasn't in the god tier range?

17 is god tier level you denying evidence isn't gonna change it

There is no evidence so there's nothing to change. Android 17 whilst holding back to an unknown extent held his own against SSJB Goku holding back to an unknown extent. That's all that's known therefore there's nothing at all to say he's God level.

It's merely assumption and nothing more for the time being.

He is god level show me where in the anime that either vegeta or goku were forced by someone that were not god tier level into using blue?

[Marlowe89]

Evidence says 17 is in god tier levels sorry that your ridiculous Theory doesn't allow it.

There's not even a modicum of evidence that suggests that. You're basing this whole notion entirely off of the scene in which Goku uses Super Saiyan Blue despite the fact that A.) neither of them were going all-out and B.) Goku used the form against Krillin of all people.

An example of actual evidence would be a piece of dialogue that directly associates 17 with the level of gods, but that never happens in the episode. You're relying on a bunch of weak anecdotes to prove a largely insubstantial point.

[buutenks]

I don't see why all the arguing. He forced Goku to go ssj blue and Dende also said 17 would be a terrifying opponent, if he were an enemy. He is clearly up there at ssj blue level.

[Marlowe89]

Dende also said 17 would be a terrifying opponent, if he were an enemy.

And what does that prove? To this day, Buu is still being hyped with all sorts of astonishing descriptions and he's obviously not Blue-level.

The episode deliberately had them both say they were holding back to maintain a level of ambiguity. There is no sufficient evidence yet to assert that 17 is definitively a god-level fighter.

[HeroR]

Dende also said 17 would be a terrifying opponent, if he were an enemy.

And what does that prove? To this day, Buu is still being hyped with all sorts of astonishing descriptions and he's obviously not Blue-level.

The episode deliberately had them both say they were holding back to maintain a level of ambiguity. There is no sufficient evidence yet to assert that 17 is definitively a god-level fighter.

17 made Goku used his god power up, Buu didn't. If he wasn't in that level, Goku would have used his lesser Super Saiyan forms. And before Krillin is brought into this discussion, it was said within the episode that Goku was testing Krillin and even hold back, Krillin was pushed back by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Compared that to 17 who evenly traded hands with Goku even if he was suppressed. And Goku had no intention of even using that form. We have no such line from Goku with Krillin.

It isn't ambiguous at all outside of how much Goku was holding back from his full power.

[buutenks]

Dende also said 17 would be a terrifying opponent, if he were an enemy.

And what does that prove? To this day, Buu is still being hyped with all sorts of astonishing descriptions and he's obviously not Blue-level.

The episode deliberately had them both say they were holding back to maintain a level of ambiguity. There is no sufficient evidence yet to assert that 17 is definitively a god-level fighter.

Was Goku forced to use ssj blue? He was. That's all you need.

[pacz360]

Evidence says 17 is in god tier levels sorry that your ridiculous Theory doesn't allow it.

There's not even a modicum of evidence that suggests that. You're basing this whole notion entirely off of the scene in which Goku uses Super Saiyan Blue despite the fact that A.) neither of them were going all-out and B.) Goku used the form against Krillin of all people.

An example of actual evidence would be a piece of dialogue that directly associates 17 with the level of gods, but that never happens in the episode. You're relying on a bunch of weak anecdotes to prove a largely insubstantial point.

Yeah let's ignore the fact that he was testing krillin with blue while 17 outright forced him to use it
Dende said he would be terrifying if he was still an enemy
Goku confirms this and said it himself when fighting him
Why say if he wasnt around blue level to a degree?
Weak anecdotes my ass

[Bullza]

It doesn't matter if he were forced to use Blue. He didn't use the full power of the Blue form against Android 17 as was stated.

Android 17 held his own against a suppressed Blue Goku, that's it. Trunks could react to and take hits from Blue Vegeta and he wasn't God level.

Krillin forced Goku to use Super Saiyan yet nobody is saying Krillin is Super Saiyan level because he isn't.

[pacz360]

It doesn't matter if he were forced to use Blue. He didn't use the full power of the Blue form against Android 17 as was stated.

Android 17 held his own against a suppressed Blue Goku, that's it. Trunks could react to and take hits from Blue Vegeta and he wasn't God level.

Krillin forced Goku to use Super Saiyan yet nobody is saying Krillin is Super Saiyan level because he isn't.

Uh-huh it does matter that fact he pushed goku to use it where goku had no intentions says otherwise.
https://youtu.be/QD3VYR0pVsQ trunks got his ass beatdown like a dog don't know what your watching
Don't see how that's remotely comparable considering goku did it into avoid a ringout that's it not to mention krillin Had to hide from ssj goku and go for another ringout.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SSB is basically the "testing form" at this point, used to signify that things are going to be amped up.

Probably easier to animate than transforming into SS2 or SS3, since you just need to put on aura effects and re-colour the Super Saiyan hair.

[pacz360]

Amazing how people keep using krillin as an example as if both of them are remotely comparable
Krillin
>got his ass smacked gohan who was holding back
>Had to blind him with an upgraded attack to get a ringout and win
>Literally said this to gohan
Fought base goku
>Couldn't even hurt him,barely got a scratch on him with the dd which didn't do shit to base goku
>When the latter turn ssj he had to hide from him and go for the ringout.
>When goku turned blue he said to krillin what will you do now? Straight up testing him.
>18 and gohan comments the massive powergap between them.
>Kamehameha s commence and krillin at best slightly budged it while he's getting overpowered by goku's.
>Android 18 had to come save his ass
>Literally was shaking him self to death.

Now 17
>Confirmed by dende to be sronger than ever and if he was enemy it would be terrifying
>Fights ssj goku who's slot stronger than he was in bog
Goku surprised 17 was this strong
>17 confirms he's been training for 10 years
Delivered several powerful blows to ssj goku
>Goku went blue telling 17 he didn't had any intentions to use blue against him.
>Ssjb goku launches a Kamehameha at him 17 uses his barrier to shield him.
>It get destroyed, he comes out of the explosion just fine clash against ssjb goku once again
Both exchange blows with each other while krillin couldn't accomplish this.
>While both were holding back ssjb Goku confirms dende was right that if 17 were an enemy it would be terrifying

So by all means tell me how both situations are remotely comparable at all

[Marlowe89]

It isn't ambiguous at all outside of how much Goku was holding back from his full power.

"It isn't ambiguous at all outside of the very thing that makes it ambiguous."

Was Goku forced to use ssj blue? He was. That's all you need.

Goku being forced to use Blue would at best just imply that 17 was stronger than Goku's previous accessible form, Super Saiyan 3. It certainly doesn't prove that 17 was on par with Blue because it's flat-out stated that Goku was holding back.

You're more than welcome to hold to the notion that 17 is God level, and even I don't believe it's impossible, but it's not really something that was confirmed in the slightest.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It isn't ambiguous at all outside of how much Goku was holding back from his full power.

"It isn't ambiguous at all outside of the very thing that makes it ambiguous."

Was Goku forced to use ssj blue? He was. That's all you need.

Goku being forced to use Blue would at best just imply that 17 was stronger than Goku's previous accessible form, Super Saiyan 3. It certainly doesn't prove that 17 was on par with Blue because it's flat-out stated that Goku was holding back.

You're more than welcome to hold to the notion that 17 is God level, and even I don't believe it's impossible, but it's not really something that was confirmed in the slightest.

It's like Goku Black's power-up after he fought Goku in the present.

He became strong enough to actually manage something against SSB Vegeta in base form after being equal to SS3 Goku previously, but transforming into a SSR made him equal or slightly stronger than SSB.

Actually, that's not a bad guess. 17 being around Goku Black's base power, whether it range from SS3 to low SSB range. Although I personally believe that he's just SS2 Goku range at this point, and that Goku just used SSB instead of SS2. HEADCANON, AWAY!

[LowRyder2005]

While I can understand plenty discussing authorial intent for this or that scene, do note that the notion you can draw conclusions from a fight in which all fighters were suppressing their power to an unknown degree is more or less like stating you can solve an equation in which you only know variables.

[Ki Breaker]

While I can understand plenty discussing authorial intent for this or that scene, do note that the notion you can draw conclusions from a fight in which all fighters were suppressing their power to an unknown degree is more or less like stating you can solve an equation in which you only know variables.

That's why they are taking into account more than one equation containing same variables and performing operations on them to single one out..

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

While I can understand plenty discussing authorial intent for this or that scene, do note that the notion you can draw conclusions from a fight in which all fighters were suppressing their power to an unknown degree is more or less like stating you can solve an equation in which you only know variables.

That's why they are taking into account more than one equation containing same variables and performing operations on them to single one out..

HISSSSSS!!

TAKE YOUR SSSSSSSILLY MATHEMATICSSSSS AWAY FROM THIS HOLY PLAYSSSSSSSEE!

[Ki Breaker]

While I can understand plenty discussing authorial intent for this or that scene, do note that the notion you can draw conclusions from a fight in which all fighters were suppressing their power to an unknown degree is more or less like stating you can solve an equation in which you only know variables.

That's why they are taking into account more than one equation containing same variables and performing operations on them to single one out..

HISSSSSS!!

TAKE YOUR SSSSSSSILLY MATHEMATICSSSSS AWAY FROM THIS HOLY PLAYSSSSSSSEE!

Ain't that hilarious when the sole purpose of this place is to compare numbers

[TheMikado]

The fact that we're too this point is sad . I've never ever bought into the idea of power levels and numbers and didn't care at all until Super.

I remember seeing lists for SSJ Trunks, Cell, etc. and simply not caring at all. While it could be a little wonky sometimes I at least had a general idea of where characters stood power-wise and how far the gap was.

That's what the problem is now, we literally have people who put Gohan and Goku as equals in SSJ while some have Goku as SSJ God level and Gohan as below SPC as SSJ. It's hard to have any kind of discussion with that level of difference in thought, so people, myself included have resorted to mathematically proving their points because the narrative itself is so convoluted. It should have never have been this way and does more harm than good for the franchise.