Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

While I can understand plenty discussing authorial intent for this or that scene, do note that the notion you can draw conclusions from a fight in which all fighters were suppressing their power to an unknown degree is more or less like stating you can solve an equation in which you only know variables.

That's why they are taking into account more than one equation containing same variables and performing operations on them to single one out..

Regarding 17 vs. Goku, you mean?
(If that was the case I'd be all for hearing the solution, actually).

[HeroR]

It isn't ambiguous at all outside of how much Goku was holding back from his full power.

"It isn't ambiguous at all outside of the very thing that makes it ambiguous."

Was Goku forced to use ssj blue? He was. That's all you need.

Goku being forced to use Blue would at best just imply that 17 was stronger than Goku's previous accessible form, Super Saiyan 3. It certainly doesn't prove that 17 was on par with Blue because it's flat-out stated that Goku was holding back.

You're more than welcome to hold to the notion that 17 is God level, and even I don't believe it's impossible, but it's not really something that was confirmed in the slightest.

In the case I am taking about, it is ambiguous on how much of Goku's god power he's using. It's the different between Goku fighting Cell before and after he charged up, however, no one believes that Goku could have fought Cell that well even pre-charged up in his base form.

It's like Goku Black's power-up after he fought Goku in the present.

He became strong enough to actually manage something against SSB Vegeta in base form after being equal to SS3 Goku previously, but transforming into a SSR made him equal or slightly stronger than SSB.

Actually, that's not a bad guess. 17 being around Goku Black's base power, whether it range from SS3 to low SSB range. Although I personally believe that he's just SS2 Goku range at this point, and that Goku just used SSB instead of SS2. HEADCANON, AWAY!

17 wouldn't even be able to keep up with Goku if he was only on par with Goku's Super Saiyan 2 form. There is a vast power between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Even him being only in Super Saiyan 3 range would be considered low since Vegeta scoffed that Black will be easy to handle when he saw how he performed against Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Unless we're ever told how much SSB Goku held back, all we know is that 17 is stronger than SS Goku.

[BWri]

Wait, couldn't it be that Super Saiyan doesn't give Gohan anywhere near as much power boost as it should?

I don't think it gives anyone the amount of power boost that it should anymore. That's why we see Goku fighting in base so often and doing fairly well. I'm mainly thinking of the Hit fight. Even if he understood the time stop ability, since he essentially beats it by overpowering it, Blue Vegeta should have been able to do the same compared to base Goky but that wasn't the case.

Well, it took Goku first learning how to counter the Time-Skip in the first place, THEN powering up to such a degree that he'd be beyond Hit to a ludicrous level just to counter him advancing so quickly, and even then still ended up not being quite enough because Hit was still using it after advancing it FURTHER.

Vegeta had none of this going for him, especially since he was the first one in and was completely unprepared for what Hit was dishing out.

It was only after his climactic fight with Hit that Goku figured out how to no-sell Hit's Time-Skip, admitted by the assassin himself that it wouldn't work anymore. Of course, some people think this is due to pure power, but I don't personally believe so. The intent seems to be that Goku has figured out that little trick, so it won't work now that he knows exactly what it's all about and can counter it accordingly.

Yeah, that's the problem with it. They never explain how he countered it really, so it just looks like he overpowered it by getting stronger and faster than Hit. So even if you can anticipate your opponent, if you're say 4,000 - 400,000 (whatever the SSB boost is supposed to be) stronger and faster then the anticipation part would be negated would it not? If you can move faster than someone can react then the time stop would be voided as Goku proved later by doing just that. Goku figured out that it was a jump forward in time and figured out the amount of time, but even so if SSB was such a power boost then that jump forward seems like it would be negated to a large degree. I'm just saying that Goku's base, in no way shape or form should be able to tangle with Hit if SSB Vegeta couldn't. Manga explains it a little better, but introduces a more problematic aspect to the form.

[pacz360]

Unless we're ever told how much SSB Goku held back, all we know is that 17 is stronger than SS Goku.

I don't see how 17 could be ssj2 level since outright force goku to use blue goku has ssj2 and three in his arsenal the fact that he didn't use it on him tells you 17 is that strong we seen ssj2 trunks face ssjb vegeta and he got stomped with ease if he was at the level dende let alone goku wouldn't bother mentioned him being fearsome if was an enemy.

[BWri]

Unless we're ever told how much SSB Goku held back, all we know is that 17 is stronger than SS Goku.

I don't see how 17 could be ssj2 level since outright force goku to use blue goku has ssj2 and three in his arsenal the fact that he didn't use it on him tells you 17 is that strong we seen ssj2 trunks face ssjb vegeta and he got stomped with ease if he was at the level dende let alone goku wouldn't bother mentioned him being fearsome if was an enemy.

The best speculation I've seen (and made myself) is that they're going with the idea that Goku is using SSB at a wide range of levels. So he goes from base to SSJ to Blue now instead of using SSJ2 and SSJ3. Blue kind of just encompasses those forms as well since Goku can lower his power in Blue to those levels just fine and not expend as much energy (theoretically since Blue allegedly conserves ki better than SSJ2 and SSJ3). None of this is proven in any way and everything is contradictory or vague so there's no way to 100% prove this (or anything else anymore) but it's a good bit a speculation in my eyes. It just tells us that #17 is stronger than base and SSJ but in the realm of SSJ2 - SSB. Of course Goku could've been holding back in SSJ form too

[TheMikado]

Unless we're ever told how much SSB Goku held back, all we know is that 17 is stronger than SS Goku.

I don't see how 17 could be ssj2 level since outright force goku to use blue goku has ssj2 and three in his arsenal the fact that he didn't use it on him tells you 17 is that strong we seen ssj2 trunks face ssjb vegeta and he got stomped with ease if he was at the level dende let alone goku wouldn't bother mentioned him being fearsome if was an enemy.

The best speculation I've seen (and made myself) is that they're going with the idea that Goku is using SSB at a wide range of levels. So he goes from base to SSJ to Blue now instead of using SSJ2 and SSJ3. Blue kind of just encompasses those forms as well since Goku can lower his power in Blue to those levels just fine and not expend as much energy (theoretically since Blue allegedly conserves ki better than SSJ2 and SSJ3). None of this is proven in any way and everything is contradictory or vague so there's no way to 100% prove this (or anything else anymore) but it's a good bit a speculation in my eyes. It just tells us that #17 is stronger than base and SSJ but in the realm of SSJ2 - SSB. Of course Goku could've been holding back in SSJ form too

The theory doesn't make sense though because that would make SSB superior in every way. Why even bother with any of the SSJ forms at all?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't see how 17 could be ssj2 level since outright force goku to use blue goku has ssj2 and three in his arsenal the fact that he didn't use it on him tells you 17 is that strong we seen ssj2 trunks face ssjb vegeta and he got stomped with ease if he was at the level dende let alone goku wouldn't bother mentioned him being fearsome if was an enemy.

The best speculation I've seen (and made myself) is that they're going with the idea that Goku is using SSB at a wide range of levels. So he goes from base to SSJ to Blue now instead of using SSJ2 and SSJ3. Blue kind of just encompasses those forms as well since Goku can lower his power in Blue to those levels just fine and not expend as much energy (theoretically since Blue allegedly conserves ki better than SSJ2 and SSJ3). None of this is proven in any way and everything is contradictory or vague so there's no way to 100% prove this (or anything else anymore) but it's a good bit a speculation in my eyes. It just tells us that #17 is stronger than base and SSJ but in the realm of SSJ2 - SSB. Of course Goku could've been holding back in SSJ form too

The theory doesn't make sense though because that would make SSB superior in every way. Why even bother with any of the SSJ forms at all?

Because using those forms is cool for the fandom. Also, the other forms are good for testing opponents that are a bit stronger than base without using energy up for the god form.

[pacz360]

Unless we're ever told how much SSB Goku held back, all we know is that 17 is stronger than SS Goku.

I don't see how 17 could be ssj2 level since outright force goku to use blue goku has ssj2 and three in his arsenal the fact that he didn't use it on him tells you 17 is that strong we seen ssj2 trunks face ssjb vegeta and he got stomped with ease if he was at the level dende let alone goku wouldn't bother mentioned him being fearsome if was an enemy.

The best speculation I've seen (and made myself) is that they're going with the idea that Goku is using SSB at a wide range of levels. So he goes from base to SSJ to Blue now instead of using SSJ2 and SSJ3. Blue kind of just encompasses those forms as well since Goku can lower his power in Blue to those levels just fine and not expend as much energy (theoretically since Blue allegedly conserves ki better than SSJ2 and SSJ3). None of this is proven in any way and everything is contradictory or vague so there's no way to 100% prove this (or anything else anymore) but it's a good bit a speculation in my eyes. It just tells us that #17 is stronger than base and SSJ but in the realm of SSJ2 - SSB. Of course Goku could've been holding back in SSJ form too

Not really when 17 outright dealt him several devastating blows which prompt him to use blue.
All we know that 17 isn't far off from him given their talk
Right now he's around rof-u6 ssjb levels (barring kx10 and hit).
If anything since we're using speculation
Toei probably rendered Akiras comments on goku doesn't need ssj2 or ssj3 anymore.

[TheMikado]

The best speculation I've seen (and made myself) is that they're going with the idea that Goku is using SSB at a wide range of levels. So he goes from base to SSJ to Blue now instead of using SSJ2 and SSJ3. Blue kind of just encompasses those forms as well since Goku can lower his power in Blue to those levels just fine and not expend as much energy (theoretically since Blue allegedly conserves ki better than SSJ2 and SSJ3). None of this is proven in any way and everything is contradictory or vague so there's no way to 100% prove this (or anything else anymore) but it's a good bit a speculation in my eyes. It just tells us that #17 is stronger than base and SSJ but in the realm of SSJ2 - SSB. Of course Goku could've been holding back in SSJ form too

The theory doesn't make sense though because that would make SSB superior in every way. Why even bother with any of the SSJ forms at all?

Because using those forms is cool for the fandom. Also, the other forms are good for testing opponents that are a bit stronger than base without using energy up for the god form.

Wait where does it say using God forms takes up more energy? What happened to all the holding ki in and Superior ki control? Only the manga says that's transforming to SSB has any negative impact.

[BWri]

The theory doesn't make sense though because that would make SSB superior in every way. Why even bother with any of the SSJ forms at all?

I thought it was initially supposed to be when it was first introduced. I remember the outrage when they started using these forms again in the U6 tournament, like they were only bringing them back for marketing against what Toriyama san said.

Because using those forms is cool for the fandom. Also, the other forms are good for testing opponents that are a bit stronger than base without using energy up for the god form.

Does god form use up more energy though, or a different kind of energy? I just don't know. Manga makes it clear that the transformation process itself kills a major portion of the user ki, but that's not a thing in the anime.

Not really when 17 outright dealt him several devastating blows which prompt him to use blue.
All we know that 17 isn't far off from him given their talk
Right now he's around rof-u6 ssjb levels (barring kx10 and hit).
If anything since we're using speculation
Toei probably rendered Akiras comments on goku doesn't need ssj2 or ssj3 anymore.

You're right, of course, but I made the comment in jest to show that who really knows with Goku anymore. But yeah, there's enough to show that 17 was at least above SSJ Goku. Hopefully Toei is coming around on using Akira's ideas how he intended them, but honestly if that was the case, they'd drop SSJ too and just go from base to SSB with SSB regulating all the levels of previous transformations. The original thought were that the previous transformations produced a strain that wasn't prevalent with SSB. Though I suppose they did master SSJ (Goku and Gohan at least) so maybe the strain there is virtually non-existent.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The theory doesn't make sense though because that would make SSB superior in every way. Why even bother with any of the SSJ forms at all?

Because using those forms is cool for the fandom. Also, the other forms are good for testing opponents that are a bit stronger than base without using energy up for the god form.

Wait where does it say using God forms takes up more energy? What happened to all the holding ki in and Superior ki control? Only the manga says that's transforming to SSB has any negative impact.

This is mostly based on what Goku said in his fight with Hit. He didn't want to waste any energy turning SS (or maybe SSB) until he figured out how to counter the Time-Skip.

Maybe the same applies to going SS first before going SSB, but I don't know for sure.

The way I see it, Goku fights in base against strong but manageable opponents, turns Super Saiyan for opponents that are above this level but not massively so, and goes SSB for opponents above even that who may or may not be god-level themselves.

Krillin is really the only exception to this, but he's Goku's best friend and kept him on his toes the whole time.

[TheMikado]

Because using those forms is cool for the fandom. Also, the other forms are good for testing opponents that are a bit stronger than base without using energy up for the god form.

Wait where does it say using God forms takes up more energy? What happened to all the holding ki in and Superior ki control? Only the manga says that's transforming to SSB has any negative impact.

This is mostly based on what Goku said in his fight with Hit. He didn't want to waste any energy turning SS (or maybe SSB) until he figured out how to counter the Time-Skip.

Maybe the same applies to going SS first before going SSB, but I don't know for sure.

The way I see it, Goku fights in base against strong but manageable opponents, turns Super Saiyan for opponents that are above this level but not massively so, and goes SSB for opponents above even that who may or may not be god-level themselves.

Krillin is really the only exception to this, but he's Goku's best friend and kept him on his toes the whole time.

I guess I'm not understanding why or how he's simultaneously able to expend more energy and prevent himself from using more energy while simultaneously holding back and straining.

[BWri]

I guess I'm not understanding why or how he's simultaneously able to expend more energy and prevent himself from using more energy while simultaneously holding back and straining.

Lol, and that's DBS in a nutshell. Keep things vague and contradictory. In a universe that makes sense SSB would be the form with the best ki control, right? It's a form that's supposed to prevent ki leakage and thus would be the form with the best stamina or better yet the optimal form of forms for the saiyans. But because Vegeta jobbed out to Hit, it looks like Toei and Toyotaro created two unique ways to retcon that. I guess it's not really a retcon if they didn't explain it completely in the first place so they can just tack on new stipulations to it, but the stipulations are getting dangerously close to undermining what the form was apparently supposed to be.

[Bullza]

Uh-huh it does matter that fact he pushed goku to use it where goku had no intentions says otherwise.
https://youtu.be/QD3VYR0pVsQ trunks got his ass beatdown like a dog don't know what your watching
Don't see how that's remotely comparable considering goku did it into avoid a ringout that's it not to mention krillin Had to hide from ssj goku and go for another ringout.

He pushed Goku to using a suppressed level of Super Saiyan Blue. That doesn't make him Blue level. He didn't do what Golden Frieza, Black, Hit or Toppo did where they forced him to fight seriously.

So he's not a Blue level, he's at a suppressed Blue level which obviously says nothing considering he can suppress himself down to Krillin levels.

Goku should never have been in a position to even be ringed out. He's supposed to be so strong he can stand there and SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't do squat to him and yet Krillin can force him to put up his guard and force him backwards.

[pacz360]

Uh-huh it does matter that fact he pushed goku to use it where goku had no intentions says otherwise.
https://youtu.be/QD3VYR0pVsQ trunks got his ass beatdown like a dog don't know what your watching
Don't see how that's remotely comparable considering goku did it into avoid a ringout that's it not to mention krillin Had to hide from ssj goku and go for another ringout.

He pushed Goku to using a suppressed level of Super Saiyan Blue. That doesn't make him Blue level. He didn't do what Golden Frieza, Black, Hit or Toppo did where they forced him to fight seriously.

So he's not a Blue level, he's at a suppressed Blue level which obviously says nothing considering he can suppress himself down to Krillin levels.

Goku should never have been in a position to even be ringed out. He's supposed to be so strong he can stand there and SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't do squat to him and yet Krillin can force him to put up his guard and force him backwards.

Oh you mean forcing him to use a form where he said it himself he didn't have any intentions of using it where he thought ssj would be enough cause I'm pretty sure he did whether or not he's equal to ssjb goku is something to see but the fact that goku confirmed what dende said that 17 would be a terrifying if he was enemy says he isn't far off from him
Krillin barely do shit to goku's kamehameha while 17 was able erect barrier to block it, survive the explosion,engage in clash of fists and even traded blows with him. Something krillin couldn't even to a surpress ssjb goku
Goku still took all of krillins attack with ease not a single scratch was on him so i won't even be surprised if he was still holding back on him.
17 has more evidence of being god tier than krillin does so keep up bringing the comparison and i'll keep knocking it down.
We've been doing this shit for days so lets leave it at here unless you wanna go for another pointless arguments

[TheMikado]

I guess I'm not understanding why or how he's simultaneously able to expend more energy and prevent himself from using more energy while simultaneously holding back and straining.

Lol, and that's DBS in a nutshell. Keep things vague and contradictory. In a universe that makes sense SSB would be the form with the best ki control, right? It's a form that's supposed to prevent ki leakage and thus would be the form with the best stamina or better yet the optimal form of forms for the saiyans. But because Vegeta jobbed out to Hit, it looks like Toei and Toyotaro created two unique ways to retcon that. I guess it's not really a retcon if they didn't explain it completely in the first place so they can just tack on new stipulations to it, but the stipulations are getting dangerously close to undermining what the form was apparently supposed to be.

You know that makes no sense right? It's like Goku going kaioken x20 and then suppressing himself to x4. Why go x20 in the first place? Why not stay at x4. Goku has tiered forms of increasing power it's the same premise. It makes no sense to go to the top level and suppress downwards, but st the same time if it's the perfect form then it would make no sense to use the lower forms. There's really no good argument you can use both ways to explain why he can use both SSJ states and suppressed to base SSB states.

[DBZ Macky]

It's definitely a case of "Full Power" but "Minimal Effort". Goku might be hundreds of times stronger than his base but still put low enough effort that he's not overwhelmingly stronger than his base.
Besides, that's exactly what was implied. It seemed as if Goku wanted to give an idea of the level of opponents he might have to face in the tournament.

[Bullza]

Oh you mean forcing him to use a form where he said it himself he didn't have any intentions of using it

And then he proceeded to hold back in that form. As in he didn't fight at full power. Hence Android 17 only matched Super Saiyan Blue Goku at a suppressed level like Krillin. Therefore he's not God level.

Krillin barely do shit to goku's kamehameha while 17 was able erect barrier to block it, survive the explosion,engage in clash of fists and even traded blows with him.

All while Goku held back.

Goku still took all of krillins attack with ease not a single scratch was on him so i won't even be surprised if he was still holding back on him.

He still had to block them and put up his guard and was still forced back. SSJ3 Gotenks punched and blasted away at Copy Vegeta with his arms at his side's and he didn't move or even need to move. Yet that wasn't the case with Goku against Krillin.

17 has more evidence of being god tier than krillin does so keep up bringing the comparison and i'll keep knocking it down.

Neither are God level. It's not about one being stronger than the other or one being God level and the other not. Neither of them are and there's zero evidence that they are. Both of them went up against a suppressed Blue Goku that's it.

We've been doing this shit for days so lets leave it at here unless you wanna go for another pointless arguments

It was always a pointless argument because you're just jumping the gun and making assumptions. Android 17 holding back matched Blue Goku holding back that's all that we know.

[pacz360]

Oh you mean forcing him to use a form where he said it himself he didn't have any intentions of using it

And then he proceeded to hold back in that form. As in he didn't fight at full power. Hence Android 17 only matched Super Saiyan Blue Goku at a suppressed level like Krillin. Therefore he's not God level.
Pls show me krillin actually doing the same 17 did
Krillin was still struggling while goku was holding back while 17 shows no sign of it

Krillin barely do shit to goku's kamehameha while 17 was able erect barrier to block it, survive the explosion,engage in clash of fists and even traded blows with him.

All while Goku held back.
I don't anything that said goku was holding the same amount just like he did with will krillin

Goku still took all of krillins attack with ease not a single scratch was on him so i won't even be surprised if he was still holding back on him.

He still had to block them and put up his guard and was still forced back. SSJ3 Gotenks punched and blasted away at Copy Vegeta with his arms at his side's and he didn't move or even need to move. Yet that wasn't the case with Goku against Krillin.
They not gonna have goku outright demolish krillin besides krillin gotten stronger and again didn't do shit to him

17 has more evidence of being god tier than krillin does so keep up bringing the comparison and i'll keep knocking it down.

Neither are God level. It's not about one being stronger than the other or one being God level and the other not. Neither of them are and there's zero evidence that they are. Both of them went up against a suppressed Blue Goku that's it.
Krillin isn't but 17 is around that level or ain't far from it
Dende commenting on how 17 is stronger than ever and if he was an enemy it would be terrifying
Goku surprised 17 was this strong
17 confirms that he had train for the past ten years
Overpowering ssj goku post god ki training
Goku forced to use blue where he didn't have intentions to
Goku admitting while in ssjb holding back that dende was right and he's glad he isn't an enemy
Show me krillin having the same out of evidence instead repeating the same old shit then you have something.

We've been doing this shit for days so lets leave it at here unless you wanna go for another pointless arguments

It was always a pointless argument because you're just jumping the gun and making assumptions. Android 17 holding back matched Blue Goku holding back that's all that we know.

Nope I'm actually going by facts that happen in the video while you kept trying to use krillin an example even though both being different situations besides goku holding back. where goku was simply testing krillin,17 outright pushed him to use it.
So unless you show me goku and vegeta being forced to use the form by someone not around there level in the
Show I see nothing that says he isn't a god tier level.