Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

Whether #17 is God level or not, all of us can at least agree that he's stronger than SS Goku, right? Then that begs the question of how did 17 actually manage to get this strong?
Besides, if 17 can get this strong by training on his own, then how strong would that make Android 18 who trained with an actual competent martial artist for the 25th Budokai?

Nope I'm actually going by facts that happen in the video while you kept trying to use krillin an example even though both being different situations besides goku holding back. where goku was simply testing krillin,17 outright pushed him to use it.
So unless you show me goku and vegeta being forced to use the form by someone not around there level in the
Show I see nothing that says he isn't a god tier level.

Even if 17 pushed Goku to transform further than regular Super Saiyan, it still doesn't mean that he's in the same realm of power as SSB.
SSB Goku was holding back enough against Arale that he was able to increase his power by 100x to match Arale who did the same. It's very much possible that Goku was holding back a lot against Android 17. Nothing necessarily states that 17 is stronger than SS2 or SS3 Goku.

Goku still took all of krillins attack with ease not a single scratch was on him so i won't even be surprised if he was still holding back on him.

He still had to block them and put up his guard and was still forced back. SSJ3 Gotenks punched and blasted away at Copy Vegeta with his arms at his side's and he didn't move or even need to move. Yet that wasn't the case with Goku against Krillin.

What's to say Gohan would be damaged if he didn't block Krillin's attacks? How would Krillin be able to get strong enough to harm Gohan, who should be several dozens of times stronger than him?

[pacz360]

Whether #17 is God level or not, all of us can at least agree that he's stronger than SS Goku, right? Then that begs the question of how did 17 actually manage to get this strong?
Besides, if 17 can get this strong by training on his own, then how strong would that make Android 18 who trained with an actual competent martial artist for the 25th Budokai?

Nope I'm actually going by facts that happen in the video while you kept trying to use krillin an example even though both being different situations besides goku holding back. where goku was simply testing krillin,17 outright pushed him to use it.
So unless you show me goku and vegeta being forced to use the form by someone not around there level in the
Show I see nothing that says he isn't a god tier level.

Even if 17 pushed Goku to transform further than regular Super Saiyan, it still doesn't mean that he's in the same realm of power as SSB.
SSB Goku was holding back enough against Arale that he was able to increase his power by 100x to match Arale who did the same. It's very much possible that Goku was holding back a lot against Android 17. Nothing necessarily states that 17 is stronger than SS2 or SS3 Goku.

Goku still took all of krillins attack with ease not a single scratch was on him so i won't even be surprised if he was still holding back on him.

He still had to block them and put up his guard and was still forced back. SSJ3 Gotenks punched and blasted away at Copy Vegeta with his arms at his side's and he didn't move or even need to move. Yet that wasn't the case with Goku against Krillin.

What's to say Gohan would be damaged if he didn't block Krillin's attacks? How would Krillin be able to get strong enough to harm Gohan, who should be several dozens of times stronger than him?

https://youtu.be/xSrRL53xQCY when was it stated goku was holding back against arale?
Also if he wasn't why didn't goku use those forms he has it and nothing says he can't use it
He did to trunks,black, and zamasu last arc
So he did then I see no reasons why he can't use it against 17 here.
Your ignoring goku saying he didn't have any intention to use blue at all against 17 trunks couldn't do that yet 17 did.

[DBZ Macky]

when was it stated goku was holding back against arale?

I'll just quote Speedster on that:

Goku is indeed holding back. There is no question about it. By how much though? Probably this Arale episode (ep. 69) will help…
[spoiler][/spoiler]
As you can see against Arale, SSJB Goku had an initial beam clash which sort of ended in a draw. Then Goku could seemingly produce a Kamehameha that would be 100x stronger, meaning that in the initial clash he was holding back to only around 1% of his power.

Also if he wasn't why didn't goku use those forms he has it and nothing says he can't use it
He did to trunks,black, and zamasu last arc
So he did then I see no reasons why he can't use it against 17 here.
Your ignoring goku saying he didn't have any intention to use blue at all against 17 trunks couldn't do that yet 17 did.

BS head-canon aside, it isn't spelled out directly, but we can assume that Goku can control his SSB power to below SS3 and SS2 tier levels. Just like how he could control his mastered Super Saiyan to be close to his base power. Still, it's still just an assumption.
I do believe that Android 17 is stronger than SS3 Goku and on par with SSB Goku, albeit in the lower echelon of God tier power. There's a huge gap between SS3 Goku and SSB Goku, I just feel that 17 is a lot closer to SS3.

The only thing that bothers me is that 17 powers up so much by apparently just taking care of poachers and stuff on a daily basis, yet 18 doesn't power up noticeably when she trains with Krillin for the 25th Budokai. Unless 17 has a lot more potential than his sister, I don't see why this is the case.

[TheMikado]

Whether #17 is God level or not, all of us can at least agree that he's stronger than SS Goku, right? Then that begs the question of how did 17 actually manage to get this strong?
Besides, if 17 can get this strong by training on his own, then how strong would that make Android 18 who trained with an actual competent martial artist for the 25th Budokai?

I think you're completely misunderstanding why there's a debate. We can't even agree on how strong SSJ Goku is.
Some people have him at SSG levels while others have him only slightly stronger than SSJ Buu Arc Goku. So in the cause of the latter the gains were not nearly so great so that group would be 100% fine with 17 being only stronger than SSJ if Goku were similar in strength to back then. If you believe that Goku has a super strong base and SSJ levels far exceeding even SSJ3 Gotenks then yes him getting that strong without intense training doesn't make much sense.

[pacz360]

when was it stated goku was holding back against arale?

I'll just quote Speedster on that:

Goku is indeed holding back. There is no question about it. By how much though? Probably this Arale episode (ep. 69) will help…
[spoiler][/spoiler]
As you can see against Arale, SSJB Goku had an initial beam clash which sort of ended in a draw. Then Goku could seemingly produce a Kamehameha that would be 100x stronger, meaning that in the initial clash he was holding back to only around 1% of his power.

Also if he wasn't why didn't goku use those forms he has it and nothing says he can't use it
He did to trunks,black, and zamasu last arc
So he did then I see no reasons why he can't use it against 17 here.
Your ignoring goku saying he didn't have any intention to use blue at all against 17 trunks couldn't do that yet 17 did.

BS head-canon aside, it isn't spelled out directly, but we can assume that Goku can control his SSB power to below SS3 and SS2 tier levels. Just like how he could control his mastered Super Saiyan to be close to his base power. Still, it's still just an assumption.
I do[/i. There's a huge gap between SS3 Goku and SSB Goku, I just feel that 17 is a lot closer to SS3.

The only thing that bothers me is that 17 powers up so much by apparently just taking care of poachers and stuff on a daily basis, yet 18 doesn't power up noticeably when she trains with Krillin for the 25th Budokai. Unless 17 has a lot more potential than his sister, I don't see why this is the case.

I don't see how the that proves goku was holding back to 1% of his Power on all he said he'll try to match hers attack
Base goku stronger than ssj3 level fighters copy vegeta is an example not to mention holding his own against a fired up beerus where before as ssj3 he got to two shotted like a fly
Toriyama confirms that 17 has great potential plus the dude train for 10 years while 18 didn't not to mention had his Power level modified to the point where he could shit on ssj level fighters without training by a guy who didn't knew what the form was.
Again ssj3 was looked as garbage by vegeta when he believe black was at that level in the so no way 17 is only ssj3 level
As I said whether 17 is equal to goku at blue is another question that needs to be seen but he isn't far off where goku and dende comments about him supports him being around there.
Current 17 is at least rof ssjb level.

[DBZ Macky]

Whether #17 is God level or not, all of us can at least agree that he's stronger than SS Goku, right? Then that begs the question of how did 17 actually manage to get this strong?
Besides, if 17 can get this strong by training on his own, then how strong would that make Android 18 who trained with an actual competent martial artist for the 25th Budokai?

I think you're completely misunderstanding why there's a debate. We can't even agree on how strong SSJ Goku is.
Some people have him at SSG levels while others have him only slightly stronger than SSJ Buu Arc Goku. So in the cause of the latter the gains were not nearly so great so that group would be 100% fine with 17 being only stronger than SSJ if Goku were similar in strength to back then. If you believe that Goku has a super strong base and SSJ levels far exceeding even SSJ3 Gotenks then yes him getting that strong without intense training doesn't make much sense.

But it's the same general thing. If anyone thinks that Base Goku is God level, then they're already accepting insane gains as the norm. Consider Goku and Gohan's fight. SS Gohan was weaker than 1st Form Freeza while Base Goku was able to fight with a noticeable advantage against True Form Freeza. Yet after training for a couple months with Piccolo, SS Gohan's able to fight on par with SS Goku. Now, you can rationalize this fight in the following 3 ways:

1. Cop-Out [Most Common]- "It was just a sparring match, Goku was definitely holding back. No way Gohan can catch up to a Goku who's God tier."
2. Accept it all [Less Common]- "Well, if Freeza can catch up to Goku in 4 months, then why not Gohan? He's a prodigy too, isn't he?"
3. Theorize [Least Common]- "Goku wasn't actually in his base against Freeza, It's his Saiyan Beyond God form."

No matter how you look at it, there's only 3 camps of people. There isn't much "debate" to Goku's strength or for that matter, anyone else's except people choosing one of these three camps and then stubbornly bringing up the same points which are open to interpretation anyways. If you belong to camp one, then you're definitely always going to think Goku was holding back. Against Gohan, Krillin, 17 & against everyone else. If you belong to camp two, then you don't give a single fuck either way. If you belong to camp three, then it might make some sense to you, but you're going to see the scenes differently than the guys from camp 1 & 2, so good luck trying to make them listen to your theory, even if it completely explains everything. Because to them, they're "baseless" and "too complex".

[TheMikado]

Whether #17 is God level or not, all of us can at least agree that he's stronger than SS Goku, right? Then that begs the question of how did 17 actually manage to get this strong?
Besides, if 17 can get this strong by training on his own, then how strong would that make Android 18 who trained with an actual competent martial artist for the 25th Budokai?

I think you're completely misunderstanding why there's a debate. We can't even agree on how strong SSJ Goku is.
Some people have him at SSG levels while others have him only slightly stronger than SSJ Buu Arc Goku. So in the cause of the latter the gains were not nearly so great so that group would be 100% fine with 17 being only stronger than SSJ if Goku were similar in strength to back then. If you believe that Goku has a super strong base and SSJ levels far exceeding even SSJ3 Gotenks then yes him getting that strong without intense training doesn't make much sense.

But it's the same general thing. If anyone thinks that Base Goku is God level, then they're already accepting insane gains as the norm. Consider Goku and Gohan's fight. SS Gohan was weaker than 1st Form Freeza while Base Goku was able to fight with a noticeable advantage against True Form Freeza. Yet after training for a couple months with Piccolo, SS Gohan's able to fight on par with SS Goku. Now, you can rationalize this fight in the following 3 ways:

1. Cop-Out [Most Common]- "It was just a sparring match, Goku was definitely holding back. No way Gohan can catch up to a Goku who's God tier."
2. Accept it all [Less Common]- "Well, if Freeza can catch up to Goku in 4 months, then why not Gohan? He's a prodigy too, isn't he?"
3. Theorize [Least Common]- "Goku wasn't actually in his base against Freeza, It's his Saiyan Beyond God form."

No matter how you look at it, there's only 3 camps of people. There isn't much "debate" to Goku's strength or for that matter, anyone else's except people choosing one of these three camps and then stubbornly bringing up the same points which are open to interpretation anyways. If you belong to camp one, then you're definitely always going to think Goku was holding back. Against Gohan, Krillin, 17 & against everyone else. If you belong to camp two, then you don't give a single fuck either way. If you belong to camp three, then it might make some sense to you, but you're going to see the scenes differently than the guys from camp 1 & 2, so good luck trying to make them listen to your theory, even if it completely explains everything. Because to them, they're "baseless" and "too complex".

I completely agree with all of this, the problem I referencing is that you said we should be thinking about how 17 got so strong. Camp one thinks Goku is holding back to whatever 17 levels are, Camp 2 doesn't care and camp 3 will just use their theory. The three camps can't even discuss the basics of what's narratively happening in the show because people are literally watching three different shows with similar plot points but different character motivations and reasons. The most people can realistically agree on is that 17 and Goku sparred to some degree. They how's and whys will just end up resulting in debates again.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well, I'll just update the list of characters.

It has been about 1 year since the end of the Black Saga (considering that in this Saga Bulma was not pregnant and only gave birth to a few episodes ago).
Of course, those who still continue training as Goku and Vegeta tend to always get stronger, since they give food to Whis in exchange for training.

Not considering angels and Zeno.

1-Vegetto
2-Merged Zamasu
3-Beerus / Champa
4-Goku (Kaioken)
5-Vegeta SSB / Hit
6-Toppo / Goku Black
7-Trunks (SSJ Rage)
8-Zamasu
9-Kyabe
10-Frost

[BWri]

I guess I'm not understanding why or how he's simultaneously able to expend more energy and prevent himself from using more energy while simultaneously holding back and straining.

Lol, and that's DBS in a nutshell. Keep things vague and contradictory. In a universe that makes sense SSB would be the form with the best ki control, right? It's a form that's supposed to prevent ki leakage and thus would be the form with the best stamina or better yet the optimal form of forms for the saiyans. But because Vegeta jobbed out to Hit, it looks like Toei and Toyotaro created two unique ways to retcon that. I guess it's not really a retcon if they didn't explain it completely in the first place so they can just tack on new stipulations to it, but the stipulations are getting dangerously close to undermining what the form was apparently supposed to be.

You know that makes no sense right? It's like Goku going kaioken x20 and then suppressing himself to x4. Why go x20 in the first place? Why not stay at x4. Goku has tiered forms of increasing power it's the same premise. It makes no sense to go to the top level and suppress downwards, but st the same time if it's the perfect form then it would make no sense to use the lower forms. There's really no good argument you can use both ways to explain why he can use both SSJ states and suppressed to base SSB states.

Yeah, that's the whole problem. They F'd it up by not sticking to their initial ideas. Things made sense in the Res' F arc because they continued from the idea of SbG in BoG which now transforms into SSB, a natural progression of power. Then Uni 6 comes along and for whatever reason Toei and even Toyotaro decided to use SSJ1. From then on the scale was kinda weird and we've had to craft theories around it. But it's different from your KK analogy, cuz KK and SSB affect the body differently. KK is destructive like fire and SSB is tranquil like water almost. If they stuck with the original idea for SSB then there would be no need for previous SSJ forms.

[TheMikado]

Lol, and that's DBS in a nutshell. Keep things vague and contradictory. In a universe that makes sense SSB would be the form with the best ki control, right? It's a form that's supposed to prevent ki leakage and thus would be the form with the best stamina or better yet the optimal form of forms for the saiyans. But because Vegeta jobbed out to Hit, it looks like Toei and Toyotaro created two unique ways to retcon that. I guess it's not really a retcon if they didn't explain it completely in the first place so they can just tack on new stipulations to it, but the stipulations are getting dangerously close to undermining what the form was apparently supposed to be.

You know that makes no sense right? It's like Goku going kaioken x20 and then suppressing himself to x4. Why go x20 in the first place? Why not stay at x4. Goku has tiered forms of increasing power it's the same premise. It makes no sense to go to the top level and suppress downwards, but st the same time if it's the perfect form then it would make no sense to use the lower forms. There's really no good argument you can use both ways to explain why he can use both SSJ states and suppressed to base SSB states.

Yeah, that's the whole problem. They F'd it up by not sticking to their initial ideas. Things made sense in the Res' F arc because they continued from the idea of SbG in BoG which now transforms into SSB, a natural progression of power. Then Uni 6 comes along and for whatever reason Toei and even Toyotaro decided to use SSJ1. From then on the scale was kinda weird and we've had to craft theories around it. But it's different from your KK analogy, cuz KK and SSB affect the body differently. KK is destructive like fire and SSB is tranquil like water almost. If they stuck with the original idea for SSB then there would be no need for previous SSJ forms.

I was talking strictly in terms of power, when adding in the other added benefits of SSB it makes even less sense to use lower SSJ forms IF SSB can actually be held back to below base levels. They should never have a reason to ever use SSJ again. This wasn't a choice Toei or Toyotaro had a choice in making. Toriyama wrote the outline, doesn't look like he gave a good reason for why they can use them again and just let everyone else figure it out. IMO it seems like he didn't care enough to provide and explanation to anyone. It looks like at least Toyotaro attempts to explain it but that can't be easy if the source material lacks info.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, people, if Gohan does unlock his "Ultimate" potential once again, or at least powers up significantly after training with Piccolo some more, where do you guys think he'll stand?

I made estimates based on considering Gohan's current base form as low-level Majin Buu tier and how big of a boost his original ritual boost was when he was somewhat weaker than his old Cell Games self, and I have him possibly reaching low-level god-tier, possibly as strong as SSG or maybe even SSB.

Of course, this is assuming that the boost would proportionally be the same. It very well might not be. However, if it is, he may surpass 17 and become the undeniably third strongest member of Universe 7's team. I honestly wouldn't mind Gohan becoming a god-tier Saiyan alongside Vegeta and his father.

[Lord Beerus]

Live notes:
- Piccolo kicks Gohan ass in his base and SSJ form and Piccolo is not even trying that hard. Piccolo > Base/SSJ Gohan is pretty much a thing it seems.
- Krillin is easily overwhelmed by 18 in a sparring match and Krillin even tells 18 "Hey, hold back a little!". Krillin is very much established to be below the SSJ's and Base Saiyans, if that wasn't common knowledge beforehand. And it confirms that SSJB was holding back as hell of lot of strength.
- Ultimate Gohan easily takes care of Piccolo's clones but is hurt by a ki blast from Piccolo's severed arm as Gohan dropped his guard.

EDIT: Piccolo is actually SSJ2 tier considering he was able to go to toe with SSJ2 Gohan.

[Doctor.]

Looks like Piccolo without his weights can go toe-to-toe with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

[Lord Frieza]

Also it looks like Gohan's got his dad's weakness too. Keep your guard up Gohan!

[Beyond]

Piccolo got at least 100x stronger from rof probably more than that.

Next episode will make this episode look like a joke.

[The gr]

Piccolo is indeed ultimate tier or around there, and i was right krillin is still below #18

[Lord Frieza]

Piccolo got at least 100x stronger from rof probably more than that.

Next episode will make this episode look like a joke.

There going to be fighting Jiangshi (Chinese Vampires) of course its going to be a joke.

However Jiangshi feed on chi/ki, so if one latched onto Goku they could get very powerful.

[incarnati0n]

Piccolo is indeed ultimate tier or around there, and i was right krillin is still below #18

Nah, he only caught Gohan because he let his guard down. I mean, his arm popped off just by touching Gohan.

[Bullza]

New episode and it is one of the most useful ones for a good while.

1. Piccolo with his weights on had an advantage over Super Saiyan Gohan. Without his weights he had an advantage over Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

The episode definitely makes it seem as though he was not as his previous Ultimate Gohan level up to yet in Super until he re-achieved the form. Now I'm unsure if he even had the form in the Battle of Gods saga either. I do think he was practically at his Buu saga levels in Base and Super Saiyan.

Piccolo's definitely powered up but he can still be under Buu as he was in the Universe 6 saga. Certainly below Ultimate Gohan.

2. Android 18 obviously stronger than Krillin like she should be.

3. It also confirmed Hit was still above Cabba, no surprises there. Does it imply Cauliflower is stronger than Cabba? She almost surely will be. Maybe even stronger than Hit aswell? We'll see.

[Lord Beerus]

Piccolo is indeed ultimate tier or around there, and i was right krillin is still below #18

Piccolo isn't Ultimate tier. Ultimate Gohan wasted the clones instantly and easily cut off Piccolo's arm by accident. He could only damage Ultimate Gohan by catching him caught off guard. Piccolo has certainly made some great gains, though. He's finally broken through the glass ceiling of the Cell arc and is now I'd say somewhere between Dabra and Super Perfect Cell, at the least. But he's nowhere near Ultimate Gohan tier or SSJ3 tier.