Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

Do you guys think Piccolo big power increase came after the U6 arc? He shouldn't get big jumps in power before that arc at least.

Of course. Nobody acknowledged a supposed power up before or during the last tournament, but now he gets the proper acknowledgement, so he improved considerably since then.
Good on them to reference Gohan's power back in the Buu arc. Makes things as clear as they should be for most of us anyways.
Now we can only guess how far above that power Gohan will be by the time of the tournament.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In what versions is it said that he is at the level of a Super Saiyan? Are they reliable versions? Or official? Because in those I have seen it is not said so

There is no way to say that they were stronger than Freeza.
The data they had about Goku, for example, was from the Saiyajin Saga. And he did not even say that it could get so strong in that time. Probably they did not imagine getting so strong about it

They did not even expect Goku to become Super Saiyan.

And in fact, none of them gave a better fight than Freeza. Piccolo stated that Goku in Super Saiyajin was not using all the ability of the form, and later we know it was because of his heart disease.
Vegeta was not even touched by Android 19, and could have defeated him easily in the same way that Trunks defeated Freeza

Then nothing states that they were stronger than Freeza

[ZombieVito]

Do you guys think Piccolo big power increase came after the U6 arc? He shouldn't get big jumps in power before that arc at least.

Of course. Nobody acknowledged a supposed power up before or during the last tournament, but now he gets the proper acknowledgement, so he improved considerably since then.
Good on them to reference Gohan's power back in the Buu arc. Makes things as clear as they should be for most of us anyways.
Now we can only guess how far above that power Gohan will be by the time of the tournament.

I ask mainly to see how much gains I give him during all of Super Arcs for my power list. I do agree, he should get big gains after the U6 arc only.

Man this episode was really helpful with clearing things with Piccolo and Gohan.

[precita]

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Piccolo is somewhere close or above SSJ2 level now. It would be fitting and it's not too far a jump in power from where he was.

[ZombieVito]

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Piccolo is somewhere close or above SSJ2 level now. It would be fitting and it's not too far a jump in power from where he was.

Well that's exactly were he is at. He beat SSJ2 Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

Everyone called Gohan the strongest in Resurrection 'F' even before Super Saiyan. Togamo, Ginyu, and Freeza called Gohan he strongest, and Freeza can sense ki. If Piccolo was truly stronger, they would have pegged him as such. Instead, they treated Piccolo as a mere annoyance with Togamo actively mocking him. And weighed Piccolo only has a increased of 20%, not that big.

What is Super Saiyan 2 wall since Super Saiyan 2 isn't a level, but a multiplier. And Piccolo becoming stronger is no more far-fetched than his 100x increased in the Android Saga. Also, Piccolo got a taste of the wider universe, just like Goku and Vegeta. So he can easily be encouraged to raised his power past its limits.

Trying to gimped Gohan so he can accept Piccolo's increase in power isn't overdoing it since Gohan throughout Resurrection 'F' was shown as the strongest and we know that Piccolo was around Perfect Cell's level at the very least.

I understand I may... well, be playing devil's advocate by now, but this actually strengthens my point. They may have thought he was a Saiyan and that he automatically the strongest. Besides, Freeza knew Gohan could go Super Saiyan and Piccolo may have been suppressed or tired when Freeza sensed his ki. Again, if you want to adopt an in-universe point of view it's relatively easy to retroactively justify ROF. Out of universe, not so much: it's clear they wanted to portray Gohan as the strongest fighter on Earth bar Majin Buu.

Regarding the "Super Saiyan 2 wall", may I suggest some contextual reading instead of raising minor objections to the terminology implemented? I'm pretty sure you understood that I meant something among the lines of "supposing Piccolo kept his usual training routine, Piccolo had not surpassed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games in eight years of training".

[BlueBasilisk]

Even Whis' training is pretty mundane.

I feel like this deserves emphasis. In episode 16 and throughout the following training arc, Whis makes it pretty damn clear that how you are training and what you're focusing on during that training is just as if not more important than how much you're training. It's how Vegeta is able to spike from his BoG power level to Super Saiyan Blue in just a few months and without the ritual. Whis changed his methods and it paid huge dividends for Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

I understand I may... well, be playing devil's advocate by now, but this actually strengthens my point. They may have thought he was a Saiyan and that he automatically the strongest. Besides, Freeza knew Gohan could go Super Saiyan and Piccolo may have been suppressed or tired when Freeza sensed his ki. Again, if you want to adopt an in-universe point of view it's relatively easy to retroactively justify ROF. Out of universe, not so much: it's clear they wanted to portray Gohan as the strongest fighter on Earth bar Majin Buu.

Regarding the "Super Saiyan 2 wall", may I suggest some contextual reading instead of raising minor objections to the terminology implemented? I'm pretty sure you understood that I meant something among the lines of "supposing Piccolo had his usual training routine, Piccolo had not surpassed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games in eight years of training".

Freeza didn't know he could turned Super Saiyan. In any case both times Gohan was said to be the strongest where when they were suppressed and Tagoma was never said to be able to sense Ki.

That comparison doesn't really matter since it got proven wrong this episode. Not a single thing confirms Gohan can access a portion of the Ultimate transformation in his regular base.

[HeroR]

Freeza didn't know he could turned Super Saiyan. In any case both times Gohan was said to be the strongest where when they were suppressed and Tagoma was never said to be able to sense Ki.

That comparison doesn't really matter since it got proven wrong this episode. Not a single thing confirms Gohan can access a portion of the Ultimate transformation in his regular base.

I am not sure how that is 'proven wrong' in this episode other than Gohan wasn't near his peak, which was already known. Not being near his peak, in base form, however, doesn't equal him to being reduced to his Buu Saga's level, especially when everyone called him the strongest warrior before they knew he could transformed. Piccolo was regarded as a joke by Ginyu and Ginyu got on Gohan saying he can do better than this.

Freeza can sense ki and Ginyu knew that Gohan had more than what he was showing. Remember, even without sensing Ginyu almost correctly guessed base form Goku's power without the Kaioken on Namek. Why would Piccolo be majorly suppressed against a guy who no sold his attack and ripped his arm off? Why wouldn't he go all out against Ginyu who he felt was stronger than Tagomo, the same person who just worfed him.

I understand I may... well, be playing devil's advocate by now, but this actually strengthens my point. They may have thought he was a Saiyan and that he automatically the strongest. Besides, Freeza knew Gohan could go Super Saiyan and Piccolo may have been suppressed or tired when Freeza sensed his ki. Again, if you want to adopt an in-universe point of view it's relatively easy to retroactively justify ROF. Out of universe, not so much: it's clear they wanted to portray Gohan as the strongest fighter on Earth bar Majin Buu.

Regarding the "Super Saiyan 2 wall", may I suggest some contextual reading instead of raising minor objections to the terminology implemented? I'm pretty sure you understood that I meant something among the lines of "supposing Piccolo kept his usual training routine, Piccolo had not surpassed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games in eight years of training".

That really does't make sense since Freeza saw that Piccolo was stronger than Vegeta before Vegeta blew a hole in his chest. He also was stunned by Nail's power who craps on any Saiyan Freeza has ever met. So why would Freeza just assumed Gohan was stronger just based on him being a Saiyan, especially when he can sensed energy. Ginyu also got closed to guessing Goku's power in Namek, without the Kaioken, despite not sensing energy. When fighting Gohan, he knew he had more to his power, something he didn't say to Piccolo.

Freeza didn't know he could go Super Saiyan. He nearly had PTSD when he saw the form and he didn't expect Gohan to have it. And why would Piccolo surpassed himself against a guy who just tore his freaking arm off? Before then Tagomo blew a hole in Gohan's chest and nearly killed him, and Piccolo was clearly pissed off about that. He had no reason to hold back. None of this can be justified in-universe.

Super Saiyan 2 level doesn't mean jack because it raises of the question of whose Super Saiyan 2 are you talking about.

[namekiansaiyan]

We still dont really know how strong Piccolo and Gohan are since at the end with Piccolo vs Ultimate Gohan, they never really showed much power. Piccolo just showed Gohan that his awareness is not good. Piccolo did that thing with his arm on purpose obviously and did not just let Gohan do that to him. We should het more soon.

[Chillekasper]

I think Piccolo is around Gohan SSj2 level. Maybe he is stronger, but maybe not. But my opinion is that he is between the strengt of SSJ 1 and 2. But he is much smarter in fighting, and has a lot killing moves, like he did with his arms. Gohan is in his ssj2 and mystic form stronger, but not smarter and I think a little bit naïef also...

[LowRyder2005]

That really does't make sense since Freeza saw that Piccolo was stronger than Vegeta before Vegeta blew a hole in his chest. He also was stunned by Nail's power who craps on any Saiyan Freeza has ever met. So why would Freeza just assumed Gohan was stronger just based on him being a Saiyan, especially when he can sensed energy. Ginyu also got closed to guessing Goku's power in Namek, without the Kaioken, despite not sensing energy. When fighting Gohan, he knew he had more to his power, something he didn't say to Piccolo.

PTSD related to his death, maybe? But anyway, I was merely presenting the possibility. I understand you may want to try and weaken the argument because you don't like the general idea, but I didn't say it was likely.

Freeza didn't know he could go Super Saiyan. He nearly had PTSD when he saw the form and he didn't expect Gohan to have it. And why would Piccolo surpassed himself against a guy who just tore his freaking arm off? Before then Tagomo blew a hole in Gohan's chest and nearly killed him, and Piccolo was clearly pissed off about that. He had no reason to hold back. None of this can be justified in-universe.

Super Saiyan 2 level doesn't mean jack because it raises of the question of whose Super Saiyan 2 are you talking about.

I initially believed it was a typo, but just why are you writing Tagomo? Autocorrect?
Anyway, regarding the "Super Saiyan 2" part, I'll apologize if it was unclear to you, but I do hope you understood well enough the point I was trying to send across in the previous post, in that I think it was pretty clear I was referring to SS2 Gohan from the Cell Game. I'll also reiterate the concept that everything in Revival of F can technically be justified just fine in-universe with a convenient set of added preconditions - although the intent from an out-of-universe point of view was quite clearly that of portraying Gohan as stronger than Piccolo in general. Besides, it's not like you can make something like "Current Piccolo > Current SS2 Gohan > Current SS Gohan > Post U7 Base Goku > ROF SS Gohan > ROF Base Gohan > ROF Piccolo" easily work without added preconditions anyway.

[Chillekasper]

I think in power it is like this:
Gohan normaal < SS1 < Piccolo < SSJ2 < mystic

But in terms of smartnes en moves Piccolo has the upper hand.

[LowRyder2005]

Here’s a more interesting tidbit of discussion, perhaps.
I’ve actually bothered to rewatch the very brief fight between Tagoma-Ginyu and base Gohan in Super. I have to say that compared to what we have seen in many episodes nowadays it doesn’t even come off as particularly eyebrow-raising anymore. Base Gohan doesn’t even scratch Tagoma-Ginyu (who calls his power in base “puny”). Gohan laments his inability to draw out his full power; Ginyu is hardly impressed with Gohan’s barrage of punches and swats him away. And that’s it. If anything, I'm afraid it might be even more well written than some of the fights they write today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53FO0iTgass

The most Gohan does, in base that is, is saving Piccolo by kicking Tagoma away; not unlike what Piccolo himself did to final form Freeza back in the day. Compared to stuff like base Goku outperforming SSB Vegeta their skirmish is much more easily interpreted as Tagoma simply not bothering with base Gohan attacking him. Guess some of us were really hung up - directly or indirectly - on the idea that some powered-up form of Gohan and Tagoma had to be equals because of Gohan’s hazy words about having “comparable powers” when at "their best". Hence, they automatically interpreted that scene with Gohan performing in an Ultimate-ish state, and being overall much more powerful than Piccolo. In all likelihood, especially after the specific confirmations we had today, I'd definitely conclude Tagoma could have done to Gohan exactly the same thing he had done to Piccolo and he was fighting the regular base Gohan at regular levels.

[Chillekasper]

Here’s a more interesting tidbit of discussion, perhaps.
I’ve actually bothered to rewatch the very brief fight between Tagoma-Ginyu and base Gohan in Super. I have to say that compared to what we have seen in many episodes nowadays it doesn’t even come off as particularly eyebrow-raising anymore. Base Gohan doesn’t even scratch Tagoma-Ginyu (who calls his power in base “puny”). Gohan laments his inability to draw out his full power; Ginyu is hardly impressed with Gohan’s barrage of punches and swats him away. And that’s it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53FO0iTgass

The most Gohan does, in base that is, is saving Piccolo by kicking Tagoma away; not unlike what Piccolo himself did to final form Freeza back in the day. Compared to stuff like base Goku outperforming SSB Vegeta their skirmish is much more easily interpreted as Tagoma simply not bothering with base Gohan attacks. Guess some of us were really hung up - directly or indirectly - on the idea that some powered-up form of Gohan and Tagoma had to be equals because of Gohan’s hazy words about having “comparable powers” when at "their best". Hence, they automatically interpreted that scene with Gohan performing in an Ultimate-ish state, and being overall much more powerful than Piccolo. In all likelihood, especially after the specific confirmations we had today, I'd definitely conclude Tagoma could have done to Gohan exactly the same thing he had done to Piccolo and he was fighting the regular base Gohan at regular levels.

Tagoma is weaker then Ultimate...

Maybe that time in power: Gohan normal/Piccolo < Tagoma < Gohan SSJ < Vegeta normal < Mystic Gohan

[Zamasu55]

Piccolo did far better than Lavenda against a stronger version of Gohan.
I assume he's stronger then. By a far margin.

[emperior]

Piccolo did far better than Lavenda against a stronger version of Gohan.
I assume he's stronger then. By a far margin.

I think right now Piccolo should be on par with Fit Buu. He is stronger than SSJ Gohan for sure.

[Bullza]

I wonder if he's still inferior to Fat Buu.

There's plenty of room for him to be superior to SSJ2 Gohan but inferior to Fat Buu if Gohan was anything like he was in the Buu saga.

[Overlord78]

I think in power it is like this:
Gohan normaal < SS1 < Piccolo < SSJ2 < mystic

But in terms of smartnes en moves Piccolo has the upper hand.

Better moves doesn't mean much when most people in Dragon Ball just over power their opponents. Gohan couldn't break free from Piccolo's grasp so that confirms to me that he is above SSJ2 Gohan.

[Lord Frieza]

Even Whis' training is pretty mundane.

I feel like this deserves emphasis. In episode 16 and throughout the following training arc, Whis makes it pretty damn clear that how you are training and what you're focusing on during that training is just as if not more important than how much you're training. It's how Vegeta is able to spike from his BoG power level to Super Saiyan Blue in just a few months and without the ritual. Whis changed his methods and it paid huge dividends for Vegeta.

That also goes a long way to explaining why, despite spending almost two years in the time chamber, he he could not catch up to Goku in the Android arc.