Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:33 pm

apex_pretador wrote:Some notable points from this episode:

- Gohan said he wanted to become "even stronger". Therefore, this acknowledges his several month training past RoF, so he is stronger than he was back then.
- It was also emphasized that he was not lacking power.
- Piccolo acts a bit shocked for a moment when gohan goes super saiyan, but then goes back to normal instantly. Does this imply he is surprised by Gohan's Super Saiyan state?
- It is confirmed that Gohan was not or hasn't been as strong as Mystic since long time. Therefore, either Gohan's super saiyan states are nowhere near as good boost as they used to be, or Lavender is a joke compared to Basil and Bergamo.
- Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was losing to Piccolo.
- Gohan can't believe Piccolo's power level. So, this means Piccolo has far surpassed his past self
- Piccolo fights ultimate gohan for hours off panel
- Piccolo says that this power is not the limit for gohan, and they both training together will break the limit.
Other than that you may have point.



The chain looks like:

U Gohan >= Piccolo > SS2 Gohan (Current) > SS Gohan (Current) > Majin buu (Fat buu) > U6 arc Piccolo > base gohan current) > SS Gohan (RoF) > Tagoma > RoF Piccolo > SS kid trunks >> #18 > Krillin

Piccolo finally surpassing buu looks likely.



As for goku and Vegeta, their battles can never be used as an indication for power levels.

- Goku exchanged blows with assaault form frost and then transformed to super saiyan. Vegeta also transformed against weakened frost.
- Vegeta transformed against Cabba to super saiyan and to SSB
- Goku transformed against trunks and zamasu
- Goku transformed against Gohan
- Goku transformed against Bergamo
- He transformed against Krillin
- He used SSB against 17


So, basically, Goku can fight anyone with any form.
With bergamo goku needed to overpower his abilty and even then bergamo was able to catch and push back ssjb kk goku kamehameha until the latter put more energy to it
17 outright pushed goku to use blue if goku truly felt if he could beat 17 as a ssj then he wouldn't bust out blue
And say he didn't have any intentions to use the form on him.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:10 pm

You know, with the current scaling, I think I know where to place the Trio De Dangers, at least on a a surface level.

If the multipliers hold up for Gohan's Super Saiyan forms, and if his current Ultimate is still only equal to his previous level from before, we have little wiggle room for how strong the brothers besides Bergamo could be.

We can have SS2 Gohan being up to as strong as SS3 Gotenks while still maintaining Ultimate as a significant power-up. So where does that place base Gohan? Well, if he's gotten at most 4 times stronger overall for his SS2 to be equal to Gotenks's SS3, my scaling has Gohan's base power at around his Cell Games SS2 power, or Buu Saga Goku's and Vegeta's SS power. Given how Basil performed, putting him and Lavender at this level isn't so bad.

A serious Buu Saga SS could potentially get the same results against a non-serious Majin Buu like Basil did, and Lavender's power being around this level wouldn't be a bad assumption to make.

I may have possibly cracked this case wide open, but let me know what you guys think.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:27 pm

The previous episode confirmed the Trio De Dangers are really weak physically. They shouldn't be stronger than Kamiccolo from the Android arc.

They do have special abilities and that fruit that makes them dangerous though.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:03 pm

SSJ2 Gohan isn't anywhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:29 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:SSJ2 Gohan isn't anywhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.
Okay then, what have you got to reconcile everything so far?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:02 pm

ZombieVito wrote:The previous episode confirmed the Trio De Dangers are really weak physically. They shouldn't be stronger than Kamiccolo from the Android arc.

They do have special abilities and that fruit that makes them dangerous though.
Nothing confirms that at all the hell you get this?
That version of piccolo would get stomped by any of them

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:40 pm

pacz360 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:The previous episode confirmed the Trio De Dangers are really weak physically. They shouldn't be stronger than Kamiccolo from the Android arc.

They do have special abilities and that fruit that makes them dangerous though.
Nothing confirms that at all the hell you get this?
That version of piccolo would get stomped by any of them
Base Saiyans without Saiyan beyond God aren't dozens of times stronger than their BoG self's. That should be obvious by now.

There's also the fact that Kuririn wasn't completely stomped by Basil in the mental training Goku and Gohan had.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:56 pm

ZombieVito wrote:The previous episode confirmed the Trio De Dangers are really weak physically. They shouldn't be stronger than Kamiccolo from the Android arc.

They do have special abilities and that fruit that makes them dangerous though.
I don't think Piccolo from the Android arc is stronger than them, because Fat Buu fought one of them (can't remember which one), and it was a good fight. Perhaps the best fight in the Zen Matches, and Fat Buu is miles ahead of Android Arc Piccolo.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 01, 2017 12:01 am

omaro34 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:The previous episode confirmed the Trio De Dangers are really weak physically. They shouldn't be stronger than Kamiccolo from the Android arc.

They do have special abilities and that fruit that makes them dangerous though.
I don't think Piccolo from the Android arc is stronger than them, because Fat Buu fought one of them (can't remember which one), and it was a good fight. Perhaps the best fight in the Zen Matches, and Fat Buu is miles ahead of Android Arc Piccolo.
Basil only gave Boo a "fight" when he took that drug.

Lavender is also stronger than normal Basil and the former was on par with base Gohan, who is far far weaker than Boo.

The trio aren't that strong. There's a reason Kuririn was shown in that mental fight to be able to hold up against Basil.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Mon May 01, 2017 12:08 am

ZombieVito wrote:
omaro34 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:The previous episode confirmed the Trio De Dangers are really weak physically. They shouldn't be stronger than Kamiccolo from the Android arc.

They do have special abilities and that fruit that makes them dangerous though.
I don't think Piccolo from the Android arc is stronger than them, because Fat Buu fought one of them (can't remember which one), and it was a good fight. Perhaps the best fight in the Zen Matches, and Fat Buu is miles ahead of Android Arc Piccolo.
Basil only gave Boo a "fight" when he took that drug.

Lavender is also stronger than normal Basil and the former was on par with base Gohan, who is far far weaker than Boo.

The trio aren't that strong. There's a reason Kuririn was shown in that mental fight to be able to hold up against Basil.
Ah yes, I forgot about that drug. You're right. But even before he took that drug he was throwing Boo around, but that's just probably Boo being Boo as it didn't really affect him. And given how Gohan nearly lost that fight against Lavender, it's no shock Goku said he was out of practice during this latest episode.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon May 01, 2017 12:08 am

He wasn't "holding up" much anyways. So I don't think it matters much. I still think Gohan kinda has three bases at this point, one of it's the regular one which is a little stronger than his Buu arc base, the second one is his maximum output which puts him above Buu Saga Piccolo and makes him relatively close to Tagoma in power and finally, his original power, "Ultimate" Gohan.

Btw, how strong do you guys have Tenshinhan and Krillin over the years and currently?
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 01, 2017 12:31 am

DBZ Macky wrote:He wasn't "holding up" much anyways. So I don't think it matters much. I still think Gohan kinda has three bases at this point, one of it's the regular one which is a little stronger than his Buu arc base, the second one is his maximum output which puts him above Buu Saga Piccolo and makes him relatively close to Tagoma in power and finally, his original power, "Ultimate" Gohan.

Btw, how strong do you guys have Tenshinhan and Krillin over the years and currently?
Nowhere is this confirmed.

Piccolo or Gohan never said that the latter could access a portion of the power of his Ultimate form in is base form. He also is nowhere near Tagoma, Ginyu said Gohan's power was puny and treated him as a joke.

I wouldn't put Kuririn or Tenshinhan over 10 million personally and that feels a bit high to me.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon May 01, 2017 12:44 am

ZombieVito wrote: Piccolo or Gohan never said that the latter could access a portion of the power of his Ultimate form in is base form. He also is nowhere near Tagoma, Ginyu said Gohan's power was puny and treated him as a joke.

I wouldn't put Kuririn or Tenshinhan over 10 million personally and that feels a bit high to me.
I can somewhat agree with you there. But I recall that Gohan was stated to be the strongest fighter before he went Super Saiyan, am I mistaken? Besides, Gohan even said that Tagoma's power was comparable to his "best".

Taking filler into account, I have Yamcha being close to Cell Arc Goku (Because of being able to one-shot Olibu) and Tenshinhan and Krillin being close to Buu Arc Goku with Krillin having an unnoticeable lead over the latter in terms of sheer battle power numbers.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 01, 2017 12:56 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Piccolo or Gohan never said that the latter could access a portion of the power of his Ultimate form in is base form. He also is nowhere near Tagoma, Ginyu said Gohan's power was puny and treated him as a joke.

I wouldn't put Kuririn or Tenshinhan over 10 million personally and that feels a bit high to me.
I can somewhat agree with you there. But I recall that Gohan was stated to be the strongest fighter before he went Super Saiyan, am I mistaken? Besides, Gohan even said that Tagoma's power was comparable to his "best".

Taking filler into account, I have Yamcha being close to Cell Arc Goku (Because of being able to one-shot Olibu) and Tenshinhan and Krillin being close to Buu Arc Goku with Krillin having an unnoticeable lead over the latter in terms of sheer battle power numbers.
Both times that happened the Z fighters were suppressed. Yesterday revelations make base Gohan > Piccolo impossible in RoF.

That would make them stronger than base Goten and Trunks. I don't think that's the case.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chillekasper » Mon May 01, 2017 1:35 am

I think when we compare the team that we can say this:

Roshi << Krillin/Tien < Goku/Gohan/Vegeta base <<< SSJ 1 (all) << Android 18 < Buu (slim) < Piccolo < SSJ 2 (all) << Android 17 < Ultimate Gohan < SSB <<< SSBKK

< = close to/around the same
<< = Stronger
<<< = overpower

I think in power the SSJ 1 transformation is still much stronger than the other earthlings, they can only compesate that with tricks and special moves (like Krillin did in his match with Goku).
Last edited by Chillekasper on Mon May 01, 2017 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon May 01, 2017 1:37 am

I can see the argument of her being above base Saiyans but what in hell makes #18 above the Super Saiyans?
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Chillekasper » Mon May 01, 2017 1:48 am

DBZ Macky wrote:I can see the argument of her being above base Saiyans but what in hell makes #18 above the Super Saiyans?
I edit my post, I think Android 18 is stronger because inlije Krillin she didn't had power lost during those years. She has special ability that make her also stronger than a SSJ. She has unlimited energy, strong base power, and moves like that deflective shield (like Android 17).

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon May 01, 2017 1:57 am

Isn't Piccolo stronger than SSJ2 Gohan?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon May 01, 2017 2:00 am

Android 18, 17 and 16 were all surpassed by regular SS forms when the Saiyans returned from the RoSaT. There's no way 18 is stronger than any current SS.

Gohan actually knocked Piccolo away in SS2 but was caught by Piccolo's strechy hands. While Pic was able to restrain him with that, he didn't get any good hits in direct combat. IMO Piccolo's between SS and SS2 Gohan but much, much closer to SS2.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon May 01, 2017 2:54 am

- Gohan said he wanted to become "even stronger". Therefore, this acknowledges his several month training past RoF, so he is stronger than he was back then.
- It was also emphasized that he was not lacking power.
- Piccolo acts a bit shocked for a moment when gohan goes super saiyan, but then goes back to normal instantly. Does this imply he is surprised by Gohan's Super Saiyan state?
- It is confirmed that Gohan was not or hasn't been as strong as Mystic since long time. Therefore, either Gohan's super saiyan states are nowhere near as good boost as they used to be, or Lavender is a joke compared to Basil and Bergamo.
- Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was losing to Piccolo.
- Gohan can't believe Piccolo's power level. So, this means Piccolo has far surpassed his past self
- Piccolo fights ultimate gohan for hours off panel
- Piccolo says that this power is not the limit for gohan, and they both training together will break the limit.
Other than that you may have point.
Most of these aren't simple plot points, since you're adding your own inferences to the mix. There are some relevant counterarguments, as well: first and foremost, Goku expressly says that Gohan's original power was higher than what it was at the tournament. By all means and accounts, Goku knows the difference between Super Saiyan forms and the Ultimate form; therefore there's a considerable chance that this Gohan was weaker all around (even as a Super Saiyan) and that this alone could've contributed to his overall poor performance against Piccolo even by limiting ourselves to this very episode. Another element that probably needs to be added is that Gohan was also still in the process of "being retrained" when the U7 Arc took place; at the very least, we know that he was therefore weaker than usual, at least back then. Then we also know Gohan has not fought Piccolo for some time and the he probably spent considerable time "doing research" and "being a scholar", so Gohan not progressing further also seems likely.

Other things are also particularly off: Gohan wanting to become "even stronger" doesn't also mean he was already stronger. Its meaning ranges from wanting to become stronger than what he is at present (alas, someone who improved over a weaker form) to stronger than ever. Piccolo also says when fighting Super Saiyan Gohan that Gohan can't “evoke (his) original strength", which would fit together with everything that's stated above. This could in turn mean Gohan wasn't putting his heart into the fight, that he was unable to draw his ki as a Super Saiyan, that he could not go Ultimate, that he was plain weaker or some combination of these assertions.
Piccolo being de facto stronger than SS2 Gohan (whom, again, looks and feels like he's still weaker than usual for a plethora of reasons) is also debatable. Gohan is also established to be someone who, apparently, isn't fighting Piccolo without being some sort of psychologically impaired fighter who is either:

A. Always distracted.
B. Suppressing his power for multiple reasons.
C. Someone who drops his guard very often (all four things are basically repeated a dozen times in total in the episode) because he tends to get cocky.

Then again, Gohan was definitely edging out Piccolo in SS2 in the few moments they fought. However, after landing a hit or two he then got "cocky" by Piccolo's own admission – which, again, in the context of the episode was further clarified as Gohan suppressing his power, guard or both things - and the opponent was able to choke him (the "binding" part being something that Goku could do to Raditz back in the day). I wouldn't be surprised if the idea was that at least Super Saiyan 2 Gohan had quite the edge in power ("you're powerful, but you have a weakness"), but that his cocky attitude let Piccolo get the tactical advantage.

Lastly, this whole situation in part of the fandom looks and feels like "U7 Piccolo became stronger than Vegito" part 2. While it has been objectively established is that Piccolo is stronger than what Gohan remembered, thi is - perhaps predictably - getting extremely overemphasized (while downplaying everything else in the episode, as well) since no other means of comparison are established and we only know that Piccolo trained a little on his own. We know that he's most likely able to hurt the current Super Saiyan Gohan even without Gohan's mind playing shenanigans and that he could be able to hold his own against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Nevertheless, concluding that Piccolo had been improving his power tenfold in such a short timespan and off screen is absolutely premature, if not downright dubious.
Furthermore, if we want to get rid of most of the contradictions or headscratchers, "Gohan was still extremely weakened all along" looks much more probable on paper by piecing everything we know. While going somewhat against the feat of Gohan sparring with Goku, there's still no doubt that both Piccolo and Gohan were way more serious in at least some portions of their fight.
After rewatching the fight and paying due attention to the dialogue, I'm very, very inclined to believe that Piccolo is only appreciably stronger than an out of shape Super Saiyan Gohan and behind the relative SS2 Gohan, who's "powerful" but who has the critical weakness of not taking things seriously, the current Ultimate Gohan being far above him anyway. In short, Piccolo could be marginally stronger and the outcomes could have been the same without theorizing gigantic leaps in power.
To sum it up, I'm mostly certain that if Piccolo were to face Super Saiyan Goku, Super Saiyan Vegeta or any form of Buu he'd still play second fiddle (just like non-Ultimate Gohan would).
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Mon May 01, 2017 4:53 am, edited 14 times in total.

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