Things that grind your gears

[TheGodfather93]

The Gohan dodge jokes are getting old, and increasingly more annoying. I love TFS as much as the next guy, and am thankful to them for helping keep DB popular, but people quoting the same stuff over and over is really starting to grind my gears. I daresay it's almost as annoying as the 'Broly's power is maximum' crap.

[ABED]

You see, back in the day I was fine with spoilers. I used to follow Naruto and One Piece spoilers and had a blast speculating until proven fake and my mindset was : "It doesn't matter how it ends, but what happens in-between."

But now I want to be surprised when I watch something. Knowing what's happening isn't fun anymore for me and I no longer care for spoilers and avoid them as best as possible, but it's kinda hard when the internet is around.

I fall somewhere in the middle. I prefer not to be spoiled, but stories are more than just surprises. It is about the journey and the execution.

Ditto, although there are times I've spoiled something for myself and it only made me more excited to watch the movie, like TDKRises.

It's interesting, James Gunn just wrote a Facebook post discussing this exact issue. Here's an excerpt:

"there are studies that show spoilers don't really spoil anything. In a good story, our brains feel just as much pleasure whether or not we know the plot point ahead of time - and a new sort of pleasure emerges when we're piecing together the story we know is leading to some already-known element."
I agree to an extent. If a movie or show is good, I have little issue getting emotionally invested. That said, a great surprise is an amazing feeling.

[ekrolo2]

I fall somewhere in the middle. I prefer not to be spoiled, but stories are more than just surprises. It is about the journey and the execution.

Ditto, although there are times I've spoiled something for myself and it only made me more excited to watch the movie, like TDKRises.

It's interesting, James Gunn just wrote a Facebook post discussing this exact issue. Here's an excerpt:

"there are studies that show spoilers don't really spoil anything. In a good story, our brains feel just as much pleasure whether or not we know the plot point ahead of time - and a new sort of pleasure emerges when we're piecing together the story we know is leading to some already-known element."
I agree to an extent. If a movie or show is good, I have little issue getting emotionally invested. That said, a great surprise is an amazing feeling.

Funny you mention James Gunn, I wasn't really interested in seeing GotG2 (I'm suffering from comic book movie burn out) but once I read the spoilers, that instantly made me a lot more excited for it.

[ABED]

CBM burnout? For shame, there's no such thing. In all seriousness, how? Even if there were 1 a month, that's still not much of a time commitment. DB is a time commitment and I have gotten burned out on it several times over the years.

[ekrolo2]

CBM burnout? For shame, there's no such thing. In all seriousness, how? Even if there were 1 a month, that's still not much of a time commitment. DB is a time commitment and I have gotten burned out on it several times over the years.

It's admittedly a weird kind of burn out. I'm real sick of the MCU formula and how it keeps getting in the way of more interesting stuff being made (Doc Strange is literally just Iron Man 1.... again with a couple acid trip moments so Fiege can pretend like it's exploring new territory) and how a lot of them just feel like two hour commercials for more commercials instead of actual films.

That's why I really liked Logan, Lego Batman, BvS, Deadpool (well, like is a strong word for Deadpool but I appreciate the princinple behind the people involved) where the crews behind them were doing their own thing, preconcieved notions, CBM tropes and mother fucking, scum sucking shared universes be damned.

[ABED]

Dr. Strange successfully subverts the tropes of third act destruction that have become so prevalent in these big blockbusters. And Iron Man 1 didn't create the structure of the origin story. That's the most similar thing they share, otherwise Dr. Strange is not IM1 at all. There's no equivalent to Mordo or The Ancient One or Wong in IM1 and the villains are very different. The structure of origin stories is familiar, but the differences are in the particulars. When people talk about the Marvel formula, it sounds good, but I believe they only have some vague notion of what they believe. I don't care about the formula, it's all about execution and I believe they execute very well and have begun subverting a number of tropes that will keep the MCU fresh. I'll attempt to make this point general, so it can apply to DB, it grinds my gears when people put too much emphasis on the ideas instead of the execution. I don't know if that applies exactly, but I have trouble expressing exactly what I mean.

Lego Batman was okay, but really boring. I don't care about some platonic notion of filmmaker driven movies that do their own thing, I just care if I enjoy it. I love a good shared universe. I get enjoyment out of superheroes interacting with each other.

I get what your point is and while a time commitment is a factor, not enjoying what you watch will lead to burn out far faster which I imagine will happen when I see Super. I'll probably start out strong because it's new, but quickly grow tired as I watch if I don't enjoy it.

[ekrolo2]

Dr. Strange successfully subverts the tropes of third act destruction that have become so prevalent in these big blockbusters. And Iron Man 1 didn't create the structure of the origin story. When people talk about the Marvel formula, it sounds good, but I believe they only have some vague notion of what they believe. I don't care about the formula, it's all about execution and I believe they execute very well and have begun subverting a number of tropes that will keep the MCU fresh.

Lego Batman was okay, but really boring. I don't care about some platonic notion of filmmaker driven movies that do their own thing, I just care if I enjoy it. I love a good shared universe. I get enjoyment out of superheroes interacting with each other.

I get what your point is and while a time commitment is a factor, not enjoying what you watch will lead to burn out far faster which I imagine will happen when I see Super. I'll probably start out strong because it's new, but quickly grow tired as I watch if I don't enjoy it.

I didn't mean that Iron Man invented the origin formula in-general but Marvel has constantly used for all of their origin movies. Bar Captain America First Avenger, they all can be summed up as "Arrogant prick who thinks the world revolves around him receives a wake up call, meets a mentor figure then must defeat said mentor figures rogue student/apprentice/son to complete his arc of not being a prick anymore." The final act of Doc Strange also contradicts the whole theme of time (advancement) being a good thing when Strange weaponizes it so he can beat the bad guy.

I do get the love of seeing the shared universe angle and having superheroes interact but I'm sick of good creators being put on these projects and told "You're gonna make it like this, you can put in a couple of your own stuff but if you fuck with our assembly line of products we will fuck you in the uvula with a flaming chainsaw." Examples include Favreau, Whedon, Wright and Shane Black.

Execution is important, yes, but I can only take so much of the same exact humor, action set pieces, story structures, dialogue and aesthetics before I just need to roll my eyes and go to greener pastures someplace else. It's one of the reasons why I disliked X-Men Apocalypse the most of last years batch of CBMs and why I hate Super: they're both so tired and lacking in anything resembling originality or a fresh take on something, anything to justify their existence.

[8000 Saiyan]

CBM burnout? For shame, there's no such thing. In all seriousness, how? Even if there were 1 a month, that's still not much of a time commitment. DB is a time commitment and I have gotten burned out on it several times over the years.

It's admittedly a weird kind of burn out. I'm real sick of the MCU formula and how it keeps getting in the way of more interesting stuff being made (Doc Strange is literally just Iron Man 1.... again with a couple acid trip moments so Fiege can pretend like it's exploring new territory) and how a lot of them just feel like two hour commercials for more commercials instead of actual films.

That's why I really liked Logan, Lego Batman, BvS, Deadpool (well, like is a strong word for Deadpool but I appreciate the princinple behind the people involved) where the crews behind them were doing their own thing, preconcieved notions, CBM tropes and mother fucking, scum sucking shared universes be damned.

Could you explain to me how BvS was a good movie?

[ABED]

The final act of Doc Strange also contradicts the whole theme of time (advancement) being a good thing when Strange weaponizes it so he can beat the bad guy.

That wasn't the theme.

Your first paragraph is exactly what I'm referring to. You've gotten so hung up on the very broad idea that you miss the particulars.

I do get the love of seeing the shared universe angle and having superheroes interact but I'm sick of good creators being put on these projects and told "You're gonna make it like this, you can put in a couple of your own stuff but if you fuck with our assembly line of products we will fuck you in the uvula with a flaming chainsaw." Examples include Favreau, Whedon, Wright and Shane Black.

I don't give a crap what they are told. I only care about the end product. You used BvS as an example of a movie you liked. I didn't care for it. It's awful. The Lego Batman movie is also not interesting nor funny. It's jokes are often telegraphed and the moral is bland. I don't recall any issues between Marvel and Shane Black except after the fact where they said The Mandarin was real in a one shot on the Blu-ray. All I care about is execution. Batman Returns is definitely a Tim Burton movie, but that doesn't stop me from disliking it. DB is definitely the work of Toriyama, but that doesn't mean I like it all. The end product is all that matters. It doesn't matter to me if his editors were more involved or not, all I care is if I enjoy the story.

Execution is important, yes, but I can only take so much of the same exact humor, action set pieces, story structures, dialogue and aesthetics

The set pieces are different. You point to Dr. Strange, but the final act is VERY different than any I've seen in years. I don't care how original something is if I don't like it. Logan was good because it told a good story, not because it was different. This is what I'm talking about. You refer to MCU formula but I don't think you quite know exactly what it is because I can name numerous ways that the structures are either different or subvert the formula.

Given what I'm reading about Super, I imagine I'm going to dislike it because it will contain a lot of fan service and the power scaling is so ridiculous that it shows a lack of attention paid to the story Toriyama created.

[ekrolo2]

The final act of Doc Strange also contradicts the whole theme of time (advancement) being a good thing when Strange weaponizes it so he can beat the bad guy.

That wasn't the theme.

Your first paragraph is exactly what I'm referring to. You've gotten so hung up on the very broad idea that you miss the particulars.[/quote]
The theme behind a lot of the movie is letting things go instead of being fixed in a particular point in time. Doctor Strange does it when he moves on from his old life as a doctor and moves into the mystic arc, Galen Erso (I don't remember the bad guys name since he's blander than Malekith) sees time as entropy an enemy of all things that needs to get destroyed and the Ancient One is literally frozen in time by virtue of being immortal. Doctor Strange is able to move on and improve from his previous point low point thanks to the passage of time, time is a good thing, not the enemy. Until it IS the enemy when Strange weaponizes it to pull Dormamu into a loop so he can beat him, so, which is it? Is time the enemy of us all or is it a necessary step in helping us move forward and we shouldn't fear it?

I don't give a crap what they are told. I only care about the end product. You used BvS as an example of a movie you liked. I didn't care for it. It's awful. The Lego Batman movie is also not interesting nor funny. It's jokes are often telegraphed and the moral is bland. I don't recall any issues between Marvel and Shane Black except after the fact where they said The Mandarin was real in a one shot on the Blu-ray. All I care about is execution. Batman Returns is definitely a Tim Burton movie, but that doesn't stop me from disliking it. DB is definitely the work of Toriyama, but that doesn't mean I like it all. The end product is all that matters. It doesn't matter to me if his editors were more involved or not, all I care is if I enjoy the story.

I do give a crap when it gets in the way of a good story being told which was the case with Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3 (to a lesser extent, Maya Hansen and Killian were originally the same person but Marvel wouldn't let them have a female antagonist so you've got two awkwardly written bad guys who don't come to true fruition), Wright needs no explaining and neither does Whedon. When their executive meddling gets in the way of a better executed product for the sake of the shared universe or the Marvel formula, I'm gonna get annoyed by it.

And I get what you mean with say Batman Returns, I dislike Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, I can't stand that take on the charater but if I have to choose between hating something because I just don't like what the creator does with it rather than hating something that could've potentially been good because some producer asshat cut it to shit in post, I'm gonna pick the former.

The set pieces are different. You point to Dr. Strange, but the final act is VERY different than any I've seen in years. I don't care how original something is if I don't like it. Logan was good because it told a good story, not because it was different. This is what I'm talking about. You refer to MCU formula but I don't think you quite know exactly what it is because I can name numerous ways that the structures are either different or subvert the formula.

Given what I'm reading about Super, I imagine I'm going to dislike it because it will contain a lot of fan service and the power scaling is so ridiculous that it shows a lack of attention paid to the story Toriyama created.

The problem of Doctor Stranges last act is that it ultimately can't decide on what it has to say on time, I really like the concept of Doctor Strange using his wits to beat the bad guy, but I don't think the execution works. Logan was a good story on its own but it also did things differently and executed it well. There's no big action set piece in the end or forced, shared universe cameos & setup so Wong can have his own trilogy by 2025. They came in there, told the story they wanted to tell, had the grace to do it well and didn't get fucked by the studio needing shared universe crap or fanservice to get in the way.

[ABED]

This is becoming about the MCU instead of DB, so I'll just PM you.

[Dbzk1999]

This is becoming about the MCU instead of DB, so I'll just PM you.

Not to intrude, but may I also take part in the convo? I love discussing the MCU and other CBMs with others

[ABED]

This is becoming about the MCU instead of DB, so I'll just PM you.

Not to intrude, but may I also take part in the convo? I love discussing the MCU and other CBMs with others

Feel free to PM me.

[Alruneia]

People trying to force Caulifla's name as Cauli. No! That's not right! This isn't like the Bra/Bulla and Tien/Tenshinhan thing, where the differences come from translations, this is like calling Piccolo "Picc"! I understand that a lot of people predicted that the name would be Cauli, but trying to bend reality to fit that is just stupid.

Also

The Gohan dodge jokes are getting old, and increasingly more annoying.

I agree.

[Draconic]

TFS quotes. It seems everywhere else you go regarding Dragon Ball, there's someone just going "I am the hype", "Dodge", "Fuck power levels and fuck you" etc. I know it's not uncommon on the internet for jokes to be ran into the ground, but most can hardly qualify as jokes in the first place.

[ekrolo2]

When someone says that having halfway plausible context & consistency for character strengths doesn't matter in a series about fighting and self-improvement. If you set a precedent for characters randomly, without any good reason at all, becoming randomly powerful or weaker at the drop of a hat, why should anyone care what they achieve through self-improvement?

Who can possibly give one one hundredth of a Kardashian's ass about Gohan getting Ultimate back or a new strength level when the show's gonna randomly fluctuate between him being able to rolf stomp Goku at his best to being worthless shit tier to Mister Satan without any good reason for either extreme or basically anything in-between?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

When someone says that having halfway plausible context & consistency for character strengths doesn't matter in a series about fighting and self-improvement. If you set a precedent for characters randomly, without any good reason at all, becoming randomly powerful or weaker at the drop of a hat, why should anyone care what they achieve through self-improvement?

Who can possibly give one one hundredth of a Kardashian's ass about Gohan getting Ultimate back or a new strength level when the show's gonna randomly fluctuate between him being able to rolf stomp Goku at his best to being worthless shit tier to Mister Satan without any good reason for either extreme or basically anything in-between?

No one cares anymore because everyone is so burnt out on the endless power level discussions. If anything, I want DBS to be inconsistent just so these people will go away.

[ekrolo2]

When someone says that having halfway plausible context & consistency for character strengths doesn't matter in a series about fighting and self-improvement. If you set a precedent for characters randomly, without any good reason at all, becoming randomly powerful or weaker at the drop of a hat, why should anyone care what they achieve through self-improvement?

Who can possibly give one one hundredth of a Kardashian's ass about Gohan getting Ultimate back or a new strength level when the show's gonna randomly fluctuate between him being able to rolf stomp Goku at his best to being worthless shit tier to Mister Satan without any good reason for either extreme or basically anything in-between?

No one cares anymore because everyone is so burnt out on the endless power level discussions. If anything, I want DBS to be inconsistent just so these people will go away.

The power level discussions miss the points of the problem, they spend too much time on mechanics & theories instead of pointing out the fact training means nothing when Future Trunks can wank himself off-screen for 10 years and attain a strength Goku & Vegeta worked their asses off to get.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

When someone says that having halfway plausible context & consistency for character strengths doesn't matter in a series about fighting and self-improvement. If you set a precedent for characters randomly, without any good reason at all, becoming randomly powerful or weaker at the drop of a hat, why should anyone care what they achieve through self-improvement?

Who can possibly give one one hundredth of a Kardashian's ass about Gohan getting Ultimate back or a new strength level when the show's gonna randomly fluctuate between him being able to rolf stomp Goku at his best to being worthless shit tier to Mister Satan without any good reason for either extreme or basically anything in-between?

No one cares anymore because everyone is so burnt out on the endless power level discussions. If anything, I want DBS to be inconsistent just so these people will go away.

The power level discussions miss the points of the problem, they spend too much time on mechanics & theories instead of pointing out the fact training means nothing when Future Trunks can wank himself off-screen for 10 years and attain a strength Goku & Vegeta worked their asses off to get.

Exactly, but like I mentioned, the endless discussion over power scaling and inconsistencies have devalued the premise so much that no one cares anymore.

[ABED]

It's because of the randomness that people care. It takes them out of the story.