Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Gohan's original strength is his full power Potential unleashed state which supersedes his Super Saiyan forms.

Gohan's original strength is how strong he was originally, because that's exactly what "original strength" means. You're not going to convince anyone that these two words aren't abiding by their textbook definitions.

Can't just ignore the material that states and shows that Gohan was Ultimate before this episode. Once again, bangless Gohan with his father's gi is Ultimate.

That material doesn't state Gohan was Ultimate before this episode, and sure I can, because that's advertising material for future content. We've seen other previews of a bangless Gohan at the Tournament of Power and a "scoop" is exactly what it implies, a taste of what we're about to see in the arc.

Can't understand myself this idea that the V Jump article in question needs to be taken literally when referring to something that may, say, have been changed during production among many other possibilities. Honestly, what if they changed Caulifla's design again as well? I mean, would it be her third long lost twin? Plastic surgery before the tourney?

While there were some understandable doubts before, it has become clear that the two forms (base and Ultimate) are rendered as being visually almost the same by now. Is it really less simple to think that V Jump might have been inaccurate? Honestly, seeing that picture, everyone would have thought it was Ultimate Gohan even if it was "Gohan in base form with a slightly more menacing look".

[pacz360]

The previous episode confirmed the Trio De Dangers are really weak physically. They shouldn't be stronger than Kamiccolo from the Android arc.

They do have special abilities and that fruit that makes them dangerous though.

Nothing confirms that at all the hell you get this?
That version of piccolo would get stomped by any of them

Base Saiyans without Saiyan beyond God aren't dozens of times stronger than their BoG self's. That should be obvious by now.

There's also the fact that Kuririn wasn't completely stomped by Basil in the mental training Goku and Gohan had.

I failed to see how that means anything krillin had to rely on skill and techniques to stand a chance against basil and even then basil still laughed at krillin attacks as it didn't do shit to him.
There's no saiyans beyond god in goku and vegeta base form are simply that strong.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, the real headscratcher is where to place SS2 Gohan and Piccolo. For simplicity's sake, let's say the two are dead even and are both below the Ultimate state.

Gohan was interpreted as the strongest fighter during RoF, even more so than Piccolo. But for simplicity's sake, I decided to go with the notion that Piccolo's full power was equal to Gohan's base form in an earlier analysis. People are quick to write off RoF in discussion because it makes things a lot more complicated, but I'm not gonna make it so easy for myself.

If we make the assumption that max power Piccolo and base Gohan are dead even, and that Piccolo hasn't improved at all since the Buu Saga, then according to my scaling, that would put them at SS Goku's power during the Cell Games, 1/4th of Buu Saga SS Goku's and SS2 Pre-Teen Gohan's power. Gohan can then turn SS and multiply his power 50 times because he lost access to the Ultimate state from a lack of training.

According to my scaling, that would place SS Gohan somewhat above SS3 Goku, or at SS Gotenks's level. Which isn't a bad assumption to make, having Gotenks's base be equal to Piccolo, makes things a lot easier for debating. That means that, at most, Gohan could have only gotten 4 times stronger up until the latest episode before hitting the cap for his SS2 power that would still place it below his original Ultimate power.

As you saw above, I assumed that Gohan was 1/4th of Buu Saga SS Goku's power, so that would make Gohan, at most equal to that Goku in base form as of right now, which would make his full SS2 power equal to SS3 Gotenks. Adjust lower if you feel that's too high, but the general idea is still sound.

[LowRyder2005]

If we make the assumption that max power Piccolo and base Gohan are dead even, and that Piccolo hasn't improved at all since the Buu Saga, then according to my scaling, that would put them at SS Goku's power during the Cell Games, 1/4th of Buu Saga SS Goku's and SS2 Pre-Teen Gohan's power. Gohan can then turn SS and multiply his power 50 times because he lost access to the Ultimate state from a lack of training.

Here's the thing. Trying to take all the implications into account, I think this latest episode casted quite some doubts on the notion that Piccolo and base Gohan were "even" all along in Super, which is something - in hindsight - based on a feeble feat (Gohan attacking Tagoma, managing to perform just as bad as Piccolo).
We know that base Gohan's power was "puny" compared to Tagoma's, and the same base Gohan in Super had regressed to a level where transforming into a regular Super Saiyan (no "Ultimate + Super Saiyan" extravaganza) was a tall order. Purely in theory, it'd be enough to put him back to mid-Android arc if one wanted. Which would in turn fit with many things: Trunks' addressing Gohan's power as less impressive and all the talk about Gohan underperforming compared to his all time best, mainly.

People addressing Gohan as the "powerhouse" in their team makes me think they could probably understand he was the one with the biggest reserve of power (but he still couldn't draw it fully). But in general it's no big deal and still needs to be reconciled with the fact that Gohan was considerably weaker back then and still needed considerable training to get back in shape as of today, still in the process of being retrained. I'd probably rewatch the arc or the specific quotes for comparison, though.

[Marlowe89]

Is it really less simple to think that V Jump might have been inaccurate?

Perhaps it was inaccurate, but it doesn't have to be. It's also possible that having one hair bang was just something the episode's animators employed to have the viewers make that connection between Ultimate Gohan in the Buu arc and the current one. He's supposedly going to be even stronger by the time the Tournament of Power begins, so maybe his hair will become bangless again as the advertising materials and opening both suggest.

Either way, the advertisement clearly states "The strong Gohan of old who surpassed his father has returned!", implying that he had to have regained that power at some point during training, and that's... exactly what this episode was all about. There's no way anyone watching this isn't going to immediately come to the conclusion that Gohan is finally returning to the "Gohan of old", especially after the characters repeatedly state that he's just now getting his original strength back (something that was NEVER commented on in the show before). There's also no way V Jump readers aren't going to think that the ad refers to future episodes within the Tournament of Power itself since it's obviously a "scoop" and features unintroduced participants. Even if one subscribes to the notion that Gohan may have been Ultimate before this episode, it doesn't change the fact that Gohan didn't regain the full extent of his former strength until now.

[buutenks]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

[pacz360]

Current u7 Power rankings
1.goku
2.vegeta
3.17
4.gohan.
5.piccolo
6.buu.
7.18
8.Krillin
9.Tien
10.Roshi
Gohan could be two or three depending on how episode 90 plays out.

[pacz360]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

How strong do you have current piccolo?
Besides I believe most barring hit of u6 fighters are around ssj3 tier given base vegeta and goku are above ssj3 gotenks
And you magetta giving vegeta a run for his money in ssj.

[buutenks]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

How strong do you have current piccolo?
Besides I believe most barring hit of u6 fighters are around ssj3 tier given base vegeta and goku are above ssj3 gotenks
And you magetta giving vegeta a run for his money in ssj.

Hmm, Piccolo is proly ssj2 Kid Gohan level I think.

And Magetta, well, idk. I think Magetta is simply incredibly tough. But exactly where he stands is unknown to me.

Rest of the fighters is pretty easy. Cabba is clearly at pre Buu saga levels and so is Frost. Goku simply went easy on him. Why I think this is due to Goku telling Frost that he is weak. While Goku praised Freeza for being so strong after his training. And this is basically the same Goku power wise, since ROST didn't make them many times stronger, just a bit strong.

So I believe except for Hit and Magetta, Mr Buu would have wiped the floor with them. Even Magetta if Mr Buu would insult him, tho no insult Buu gets ringed out.

And why I place them at that level is also due to Piccolo's performance vs Frost. While Frost was proly weaker, Piccolo is only at Buu saga ssj2 level after constantly training since u6 arc. So at best he got to FPssj Goku level during the u6 arc.

[TheMikado]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

How strong do you have current piccolo?
Besides I believe most barring hit of u6 fighters are around ssj3 tier given base vegeta and goku are above ssj3 gotenks
And you magetta giving vegeta a run for his money in ssj.

Hmm, Piccolo is proly ssj2 Kid Gohan level I think.

And Magetta, well, idk. I think Magetta is simply incredibly tough. But exactly where he stands is unknown to me.

Rest of the fighters is pretty easy. Cabba is clearly at pre Buu saga levels and so is Frost. Goku simply went easy on him. Why I think this is due to Goku telling Frost that he is weak. While Goku praised Freeza for being so strong after his training. And this is basically the same Goku power wise, since ROST didn't make them many times stronger, just a bit strong.

So I believe except for Hit and Magetta, Mr Buu would have wiped the floor with them. Even Magetta if Mr Buu would insult him, tho no insult Buu gets ringed out.

Then why would Goku go SSJ at all if he could take Frost in base?

[buutenks]

How strong do you have current piccolo?
Besides I believe most barring hit of u6 fighters are around ssj3 tier given base vegeta and goku are above ssj3 gotenks
And you magetta giving vegeta a run for his money in ssj.

Hmm, Piccolo is proly ssj2 Kid Gohan level I think.

And Magetta, well, idk. I think Magetta is simply incredibly tough. But exactly where he stands is unknown to me.

Rest of the fighters is pretty easy. Cabba is clearly at pre Buu saga levels and so is Frost. Goku simply went easy on him. Why I think this is due to Goku telling Frost that he is weak. While Goku praised Freeza for being so strong after his training. And this is basically the same Goku power wise, since ROST didn't make them many times stronger, just a bit strong.

So I believe except for Hit and Magetta, Mr Buu would have wiped the floor with them. Even Magetta if Mr Buu would insult him, tho no insult Buu gets ringed out.

Then why would Goku go SSJ at all if he could take Frost in base?

Well tbh Goku went ssj to make Frost transform. Now why Vegeta went ssj to one shot Frost. That I don't know. But Frost cannot be buu saga ssj3 level, since Piccolo is only now after allot of time ssj2 buu saga level. Even if Frost was ssj3 level and dropped to PC level from Goku's few punches, it wouldn't make sense why Vegeta used ssj, since his base form would be leagues above him. So he proly used ssj cos he hates him because he looks like Freeza and he wanted to beat him with the legendary ssj form.

[pacz360]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

How strong do you have current piccolo?
Besides I believe most barring hit of u6 fighters are around ssj3 tier given base vegeta and goku are above ssj3 gotenks
And you magetta giving vegeta a run for his money in ssj.

Hmm, Piccolo is proly ssj2 Kid Gohan level I think.

And Magetta, well, idk. I think Magetta is simply incredibly tough. But exactly where he stands is unknown to me.

Rest of the fighters is pretty easy. Cabba is clearly at pre Buu saga levels and so is Frost. Goku simply went easy on him. Why I think this is due to Goku telling Frost that he is weak. While Goku praised Freeza for being so strong after his training. And this is basically the same Goku power wise, since ROST didn't make them many times stronger, just a bit strong.

So I believe except for Hit and Magetta, Mr Buu would have wiped the floor with them. Even Magetta if Mr Buu would insult him, tho no insult Buu gets ringed out.

And why I place them at that level is also due to Piccolo's performance vs Frost. While Frost was proly weaker, Piccolo is only at Buu saga ssj2 level after constantly training since u6 arc. So at best he got to FPssj Goku level during the u6 arc.

Where did Goku said that?
Goku did stated that frost was weakened from his fight with goku and piccolo did ask frost if he could hold back a little and his best shot of winning was using sbc
vegeta stated cabba was his equal in base which which why he wanted him to go ssj.
Magetta overpowered vegeta's galick gun briefly stalemated his final flash and hold his own before vegeta insulted him.

[TheMikado]

Hmm, Piccolo is proly ssj2 Kid Gohan level I think.

And Magetta, well, idk. I think Magetta is simply incredibly tough. But exactly where he stands is unknown to me.

Rest of the fighters is pretty easy. Cabba is clearly at pre Buu saga levels and so is Frost. Goku simply went easy on him. Why I think this is due to Goku telling Frost that he is weak. While Goku praised Freeza for being so strong after his training. And this is basically the same Goku power wise, since ROST didn't make them many times stronger, just a bit strong.

So I believe except for Hit and Magetta, Mr Buu would have wiped the floor with them. Even Magetta if Mr Buu would insult him, tho no insult Buu gets ringed out.

Then why would Goku go SSJ at all if he could take Frost in base?

Well tbh Goku went ssj to make Frost transform. Now why Vegeta went ssj to one shot Frost. That I don't know. But Frost cannot be buu saga ssj3 level, since Piccolo is only now after allot of time ssj2 buu saga level. Even if Frost was ssj3 level and dropped to PC level from Goku's few punches, it wouldn't make sense why Vegeta used ssj, since his base form would be leagues above him. So he proly used ssj cos he hates him because he looks like Freeza and he wanted to beat him with the legendary ssj form.

Oooorrr... you know.. the two base theory thing.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Why do people assume that Piccolo is at a Buu Saga SS2 level?

Gohan has consistently been portrayed as trying to reach his previous level after the events of RoF, and this is acknowledged in-universe. Even if one assumes he made ZERO growth in terms of power, his SS2 would still likely be equal to that of Gotenks's own, given that his base form was AT LEAST around Piccolo's old level.

Even assuming that Piccolo isn't as strong as SS2 Gohan right now and only equal to his SS power, that'd STILL place him squarely above Majin Buu and possibly even SS3 Goku from the Buu Saga.

[pacz360]

Then why would Goku go SSJ at all if he could take Frost in base?

Well tbh Goku went ssj to make Frost transform. Now why Vegeta went ssj to one shot Frost. That I don't know. But Frost cannot be buu saga ssj3 level, since Piccolo is only now after allot of time ssj2 buu saga level. Even if Frost was ssj3 level and dropped to PC level from Goku's few punches, it wouldn't make sense why Vegeta used ssj, since his base form would be leagues above him. So he proly used ssj cos he hates him because he looks like Freeza and he wanted to beat him with the legendary ssj form.

Oooorrr... you know.. the two base theory thing.

Which also has a lot holes in there.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Why do people assume that Piccolo is at a Buu Saga SS2 level?

Gohan has consistently been portrayed as trying to reach his previous level after the events of RoF, and this is acknowledged in-universe. Even if one assumes he made ZERO growth in terms of power, his SS2 would still likely be equal to that of Gotenks's own, given that his base form was AT LEAST around Piccolo's old level.

Even assuming that Piccolo isn't as strong as SS2 Gohan right now and only equal to his SS power, that'd STILL place him squarely above Majin Buu and possibly even SS3 Goku from the Buu Saga.

After sensing Tagoma(Pre Ginyu) Goten & Trunks felt the need to fuse into Gotenks.. skipped Base & went straight to SS. SS Gotenks should be comparable to Fat Buu(Pre Split) or even stronger.

Tagoma survived a headbutt from Gotenks to the groin... later got back up. This was Tagoma who was offguard btw... if he knew Gotenks was coming, he could've probably dodged or took less damage. Gohan later powers up to SS and stomps an even stronger Tagoma(Ginyu)... who wasn't offguard. I think Gohan was at least comparable to SS1 Gotenks during RoF... much weaker than prime.

Gohan has trained since then, so I'd place his SS at SS Gotenks & his SS2 at a hypothetical SS2 Gotenks... Piccolo is now comparable to SS2 Gohan at the very least so yeah... I wouldn't put them at Buy saga SS2 level.

Gotenks(Pre Rosat) survived a beating from an angry Buu... Gotenks(Base) is more powerful than that.

[buutenks]

How strong do you have current piccolo?
Besides I believe most barring hit of u6 fighters are around ssj3 tier given base vegeta and goku are above ssj3 gotenks
And you magetta giving vegeta a run for his money in ssj.

Hmm, Piccolo is proly ssj2 Kid Gohan level I think.

And Magetta, well, idk. I think Magetta is simply incredibly tough. But exactly where he stands is unknown to me.

Rest of the fighters is pretty easy. Cabba is clearly at pre Buu saga levels and so is Frost. Goku simply went easy on him. Why I think this is due to Goku telling Frost that he is weak. While Goku praised Freeza for being so strong after his training. And this is basically the same Goku power wise, since ROST didn't make them many times stronger, just a bit strong.

So I believe except for Hit and Magetta, Mr Buu would have wiped the floor with them. Even Magetta if Mr Buu would insult him, tho no insult Buu gets ringed out.

And why I place them at that level is also due to Piccolo's performance vs Frost. While Frost was proly weaker, Piccolo is only at Buu saga ssj2 level after constantly training since u6 arc. So at best he got to FPssj Goku level during the u6 arc.

Where did Goku said that?
Goku did stated that frost was weakened from his fight with goku and piccolo did ask frost if he could hold back a little and his best shot of winning was using sbc
vegeta stated cabba was his equal in base which which why he wanted him to go ssj.
Magetta overpowered vegeta's galick gun briefly stalemated his final flash and hold his own before vegeta insulted him.

I agree about Magetta. But with Frost and Cabba is a little iffy. And Goku told Frost that he is weak and he should train.

[ZombieVito]

Nothing confirms that at all the hell you get this?
That version of piccolo would get stomped by any of them

Base Saiyans without Saiyan beyond God aren't dozens of times stronger than their BoG self's. That should be obvious by now.

There's also the fact that Kuririn wasn't completely stomped by Basil in the mental training Goku and Gohan had.

I failed to see how that means anything krillin had to rely on skill and techniques to stand a chance against basil and even then basil still laughed at krillin attacks as it didn't do shit to him.
There's no saiyans beyond god in goku and vegeta base form are simply that strong.

There is a Saiyan beyond God. The manga proved as much with Black.

Question: Who is stronger between these two: SSJ Cabba or Magetta?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There is a Saiyan beyond God. The manga proved as much with Black.

Question: Who is stronger between these two: SSJ Cabba or Magetta?

Has it really been proven, though? From what I've read and watched of people who read the manga, I haven't seen any mention of the power of SSG being in Goku Black's base form.

===

As to the other one, SS Vegeta seemed about dead even with Magetta, maybe ever so slightly stronger, and certainly not enough to do anything significant in a reasonable timeframe.

Cabba fought well enough as a SS against SS Vegeta, but then eventually hit a brick wall for some reason. I'm making the assumption that he burned through a lot of energy after transforming and used up enough to eventually do nothing against SS Vegeta.

So, in terms of pure power, I'd say the two are even. However, Magetta can dish it out and take it for much longer than SS Cabba can.

[pacz360]

Hmm, Piccolo is proly ssj2 Kid Gohan level I think.

And Magetta, well, idk. I think Magetta is simply incredibly tough. But exactly where he stands is unknown to me.

Rest of the fighters is pretty easy. Cabba is clearly at pre Buu saga levels and so is Frost. Goku simply went easy on him. Why I think this is due to Goku telling Frost that he is weak. While Goku praised Freeza for being so strong after his training. And this is basically the same Goku power wise, since ROST didn't make them many times stronger, just a bit strong.

So I believe except for Hit and Magetta, Mr Buu would have wiped the floor with them. Even Magetta if Mr Buu would insult him, tho no insult Buu gets ringed out.

And why I place them at that level is also due to Piccolo's performance vs Frost. While Frost was proly weaker, Piccolo is only at Buu saga ssj2 level after constantly training since u6 arc. So at best he got to FPssj Goku level during the u6 arc.

Where did Goku said that?
Goku did stated that frost was weakened from his fight with goku and piccolo did ask frost if he could hold back a little and his best shot of winning was using sbc
vegeta stated cabba was his equal in base which which why he wanted him to go ssj.
Magetta overpowered vegeta's galick gun briefly stalemated his final flash and hold his own before vegeta insulted him.

I agree about Magetta. But with Frost and Cabba is a little iffy. And Goku told Frost that he is weak and he should train.

Maybe when the tournament starts it could help clear up on how strong they are.