"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[IGhostUlt]

Never thought I'd see the day when gohan fans are going against 17 fans. I love this lol

[Lapislettuce]

You keep getting upset with people being biased...and yet you're probably the most vocal one as if no one else is admitting to their own. Everyone has a bias.

Yes 17 counts as it was never a thing just like Freeza, and then suddenly is. Both times it's completely random and hated on. Back during GT's run, and now. If Gohan randomly gets stronger in such a short time without a good reason, it is bullshit. But at least he's had his potential slowly build up over the course of the entire series. He didn't just suddenly go "Oh hey I have this potential now". Also the series itself threw away his first potential release literally in the same arc as Gohan still had rage boosts. So really that complaint has to be lodged at the series itself. Heck even Goku makes a comment on how it's been before and how it sounds like the same thing.

First a potential is supposed to be worked on and not just randomly being unleached out of no where thanks to a magical spell,second how many times does this "Potential" will be unlocked ? as far as i'm concerned it was unlocked in buu saga and Gohan couldn't beat Buu/gotenks,that was his limit,it MAKES 0 sense for him to be even closer to Goku's level,and either 17's potential is NOT out of no where Toriyama said it was enormous you know the creator of the whole series ? people want to argue with Toriyama too about his characters ? go ahead. (sorry for Gohan fans who don't deserve this "rant" but i can't stand double standards nor hypocrisy)

Gohan has had his potential built up as a thing since DAY 1. Secondly he didn't start off super strong and in the upper tier. He still would have died to the likes of Raditz or Nappa early on even. His potential slowly grew and evolved over time which we could see. He didn't just suddenly start of in the highest tier just cause. You can call the magic spell thing out of nowhere if you want, but you'd have to include Zenkai's, The Holy Water, The God transformation, and a butt load of other stuff on that list if you want to go down that path.

Secondly the God level is far beyond normal potential. Ask Goku. He said he NEVER could have gotten this strong on his own. He said it was a realm he never could have hoped to reach. So it's something far surpassing mortal potential. Also Gohan since day 1 has been stated to have more potential than Goku. Day 1. So him being able to one day surpass Goku by taking the same path makes sense, since it's literally always been a thing. Of course in such a short time I do have a problem with.

You seem to be thinking because Toriyama said something, it's ok. Toriyama said this about Freeza, and I never accepted that. I thought it was dumb. Toriyama is not infallible. Just because he says something, doesn't make it suddenly not stupid. I very much appreciate 17 having a long training period. I don't appreciate there is no background on said period, and he once again falls into the trap of suddenly having massive potential out of nowhere for the sake of it. He was not built up at all previously. Nowhere in the series beforehand did he have any sort of mention of being this special. If he did, I'd be more accepting. Cell was the one portrayed as the pinnacle and far more special than 17.

There isn't a double standard or hypocrisy, because I still AM calling bullshit on Gohan if he does something like that. You seem to be using that to try and defend 17 like a fanboy, when people here talking about Gohan, ALREADY know it's bullshit for Gohan. They are fully aware. However unlike the others, Gohan has been built up since day 1. Does that fix the bullshit with Gohan? No. However he at least isn't randomly thrown in as a special snowflake out of nowhere, just cause. That is what people are upset about. No build up for guys like Freeza or 17. They just suddenly are special snowflakes, just cause. The reasoning behind it is so shallow, I can literally apply it to everyone who doesn't train if I feel like it. It's trying to become some get out of jail free card like "Lol magic don't have to explain" or "Lol techno babble no explanation needed." That is what pisses people off.

For either Freeza or 17 I could do a shit ton better job of getting them to this level, without making it such a stupid out of nowhere way. For Freeza, have Champa and Vados be the one's who use him as a secret pawn to get stronger, to further their goals for the Super Dragon Balls, thus setting up the next arc and the current one. For 17 just have him go on a space intergalactic trip that ends up giving him some form of enhancement to his infinite energy system or something like that. Or have some space scientist unlock his Cyborg parts for more power. Something like that to give some better reasoning. No one has a problem with the concept of 17 or Freeza getting stronger. They just hate how it's handled.

You can't compare 17 to Frieza considering 17 trained far longer than Frieza and Frieza trained with some fodder while 17's whole training is a totale mystery and when i say "hypocrisy or double standard" i'm not talking about you,anyway 17 was originally far stronger than Cell before Cell absorbed humans and absorbed him and his sister,Cell needed 17 to become stronger while 17 doesn't need to absorb anyone,i think the problem here is people not accepting that other beings/races can grow in strength faster than saiyans,especially when this later was already stronger than a super saiyan originally without any efforts or training and if Toriyama says that he couldn't showcase 17's strength in the past (which i totally get considering there was so much going on in the buu saga that he probably forgot about him) and that he has an enormous potencial i'm going to believe it,he's the creator of all this basically if we "ignore" what he says it's disrespectful to him,and again Gohan was supposed to be the main character of course he has more built up than 17 don't even compare it,people just don't look at the bigger picture or at least they don't want to because they already have an idea of who should be stronger in their mind and who shouldn't.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

EP 90 sounds good. I'm not a great Tien fan, but you never know, he might surprise me in 89. These arguments blew up like crazy; especially the 17 v Gohan and the coherence ones. Like guys, chill.

[Sandubadear]

OK, Gohanfags will definitely like the episode, but now I too think this is dragging too much. Start the damn tournament already lol.

[dbzfan7]

First a potential is supposed to be worked on and not just randomly being unleached out of no where thanks to a magical spell,second how many times does this "Potential" will be unlocked ? as far as i'm concerned it was unlocked in buu saga and Gohan couldn't beat Buu/gotenks,that was his limit,it MAKES 0 sense for him to be even closer to Goku's level,and either 17's potential is NOT out of no where Toriyama said it was enormous you know the creator of the whole series ? people want to argue with Toriyama too about his characters ? go ahead. (sorry for Gohan fans who don't deserve this "rant" but i can't stand double standards nor hypocrisy)

Gohan has had his potential built up as a thing since DAY 1. Secondly he didn't start off super strong and in the upper tier. He still would have died to the likes of Raditz or Nappa early on even. His potential slowly grew and evolved over time which we could see. He didn't just suddenly start of in the highest tier just cause. You can call the magic spell thing out of nowhere if you want, but you'd have to include Zenkai's, The Holy Water, The God transformation, and a butt load of other stuff on that list if you want to go down that path.

Secondly the God level is far beyond normal potential. Ask Goku. He said he NEVER could have gotten this strong on his own. He said it was a realm he never could have hoped to reach. So it's something far surpassing mortal potential. Also Gohan since day 1 has been stated to have more potential than Goku. Day 1. So him being able to one day surpass Goku by taking the same path makes sense, since it's literally always been a thing. Of course in such a short time I do have a problem with.

You seem to be thinking because Toriyama said something, it's ok. Toriyama said this about Freeza, and I never accepted that. I thought it was dumb. Toriyama is not infallible. Just because he says something, doesn't make it suddenly not stupid. I very much appreciate 17 having a long training period. I don't appreciate there is no background on said period, and he once again falls into the trap of suddenly having massive potential out of nowhere for the sake of it. He was not built up at all previously. Nowhere in the series beforehand did he have any sort of mention of being this special. If he did, I'd be more accepting. Cell was the one portrayed as the pinnacle and far more special than 17.

There isn't a double standard or hypocrisy, because I still AM calling bullshit on Gohan if he does something like that. You seem to be using that to try and defend 17 like a fanboy, when people here talking about Gohan, ALREADY know it's bullshit for Gohan. They are fully aware. However unlike the others, Gohan has been built up since day 1. Does that fix the bullshit with Gohan? No. However he at least isn't randomly thrown in as a special snowflake out of nowhere, just cause. That is what people are upset about. No build up for guys like Freeza or 17. They just suddenly are special snowflakes, just cause. The reasoning behind it is so shallow, I can literally apply it to everyone who doesn't train if I feel like it. It's trying to become some get out of jail free card like "Lol magic don't have to explain" or "Lol techno babble no explanation needed." That is what pisses people off.

For either Freeza or 17 I could do a shit ton better job of getting them to this level, without making it such a stupid out of nowhere way. For Freeza, have Champa and Vados be the one's who use him as a secret pawn to get stronger, to further their goals for the Super Dragon Balls, thus setting up the next arc and the current one. For 17 just have him go on a space intergalactic trip that ends up giving him some form of enhancement to his infinite energy system or something like that. Or have some space scientist unlock his Cyborg parts for more power. Something like that to give some better reasoning. No one has a problem with the concept of 17 or Freeza getting stronger. They just hate how it's handled.

You can't compare 17 to Frieza considering 17 trained far longer than Frieza and Frieza trained with some fodder while 17's whole training is a totale mystery and when i say "hypocrisy or double standard" i'm not talking about you,anyway 17 was originally far stronger than Cell before Cell absorbed humans and absorbed him and his sister,Cell needed 17 to become stronger while 17 doesn't need to absorb anyone,i think the problem here is people not accepting that other beings/races can grow in strength faster than saiyans,especially when this later was already stronger than a super saiyan originally without any efforts or training and if Toriyama says that he couldn't showcase 17's strength in the past (which i totally get considering there was so much going on in the buu saga that he probably forgot about him) and that he has an enormous potencial i'm going to believe it,he's the creator of all this basically if we "ignore" what he says it's disrespectful to him,and again Gohan was supposed to be the main character of course he has more built up than 17 don't even compare it,people just don't look at the bigger picture or at least they don't want to because they already have an idea of who should be stronger in their mind and who shouldn't.

No that is not it at all. People would be far more accepting if the reasoning behind it was actually good. That's what the issue is. The reasoning is absolute horse shit. Cell was the one with the true potential and ultimate pinnacle of Gero. He said that a whole bunch. He was only weaker because he had to go into his larval form to use the time machine, and build himself back up by absorbing humans. That much is said. 17 and 18 were designed to create the ultimate being. That was the story arc. That was the establishment. If they want to change that fine, then give A GOOD REASON!

Above I covered how to make both work. Anyone can be as strong as they want, so long as there is a good reason and build up to it. A nice narrative piece to accompany such a direction. I compare Freeza and 17 as 2 people who never had such potential, but suddenly do when no such thing was ever shown before. That is what I compare. You can have Roshi or Yamcha in god tier for all I care, but have a damn good reason and backstory to it. Don't just go "Lol trained somehow so I am now".

If Super wasn't so terrible at set ups and build ups, while immediately jumping into a pay off, 17 and Freeza would be just fine. But no they just immediately want to launch right into a pay off. Thankfully at least Gohan is getting set up and build up in this arc. Imagine if he got the same treatment here in Super. They could have just gone. "Hey guys I have massive potential and off screen, just made myself god tier. Just been training since the whole Freeza thing and am now a SSJB. How'd I do it? I got the potential lolz!"

Give people a full set up and build up, and I guarantee complaints would drop down a good 50% from power level enthusiasts. Add those two key factors in and suddenly you have a full explanation to changing the status quo, how the change started, what was done, and where it leads. Set up, build up, pay off. It's the ground to complete product pretty much everything goes through.

[LowRyder2005]

No, consistency means following a set of rules or principles. The greatest artists have had their work make an impact by spinning this logic on it's head and either not follow the rules of their medium or changing them to fit their vision. That doesn't mean putting pages in random order, that means changing ideas, introducing new ones or sometimes even dropping everything and just doing what feels right.

Again, I don't how if I can word it better than I did, but his example was perfectly fine because "consistence" is also a synonym of "coherence". If you drastically alter the logical progression of a series of given events, you lose any semblance of coherence (alas, rendering something "inconsistent"); now, unless you're a dadaist or someone with similar principles, I suppose, this usually doesn't work in favor of the writer when trying to build a story. You'd probably hear about well-received novels written by monkeys with typewriters, wouldn't you?

But anyway, without going too in-depth with the semanthics, I believe you're arguing against yourself here: one can also be "consistent" in "improving" or "revolutionizing" something. Hence, the idea that "consistency" is necessarily something equivalent to stagnation, aversion to change, or anything inherently bad is quite simply a gross extremization.

I'd also argue that it's far too noble a defense for Super's narrative, which is most likely the product of simple carelessness and negligence on its writing team's part, but let's just leave it at that.

And his example of coherence being the same as sequencing is wrong. You can be coherent even if things are out of order, if that is the intent. The whole "local coherence" thing he tried to catch me with, even though he fails to understand it's exactly what I'm saying. But I never advocated that anything should be enjoyed or critiqued outside of said "local coherence". He created a straw man. Narrative consistency, especially in the way it's being used in the context of this thread prior to his unrelated "argument", was following the rules of what came before. I said following those rules turned out like shit and it's good they dropped them.

I am not arguing that consistency or following rules is bad, but taking my WHOLE post into account that should be pretty clear. I am saying that if you're actually going to try and do something new, you shouldn't be tied to the prior works, especially when you're doing Dragon Ball, a series that goes for the superficial aspects of storytelling. If the result of breaking the "narrative consistency" is fun and the intent of it was to be fun, why should it matter? That's the gist of what I said in my original post.

Mikado tried to turn this into a whole different conversation, using a non-argument and didn't actually reply to anything of substance I wrote in my post.

Also, in my post to you I wasn't defending Super. I was debating the unrelated argument you two created. I am not giving Super credit that it's trying to break all this rules and emerge a masterpiece. It's a stupid show for stupid kids, going for the most basic form of fun. I understand it and I like it for what it is. If people can't actually criticize it for what it is, but for what they wish it would be, that's their problem. It's stupid fun akin to fart jokes, sometimes it lands, sometimes it doesn't. Criticizing it for not being more is fair, but it's not trying to be more and it never will, so critique should start focusing more on how to become a better stupid show, instead of trying to change it's core idea.

Last of my posts on the subject, since it's off topic, but we can keep it up via PM if you really want to reply.

First off, I believe your initial post was basically stating "consistency is the death of art". Not "consistency is the death of Dragon Ball (Z)". Something which - when put in such broad terms - would definitely appear eyebrow-raising to most people in the context of defending Dragon Ball Super, especially since they're not agains Super doing new things per se as much as they are against Super doing new things with a poor execution.

What our common friend showed you was a very simple, and yet effective counterargument, since some phrases laid incoherently removed any artistic worth from a literary masterpiece. At this point it's pretty clear to me you yourself realized what he meant and you're just acting very defensively about it. Furthermore, since you were the one apparently talking through absolutes, his point and what can reasonably be deduced from it was that proper sequencing could be among the standard prerequisites of something "coherent". And again, I doubt you can prove him wrong. If I started to write randomly changing wovels or consonants you would not address my writing as "coherent" or that putting stuff in a sequence in the proper way is unneeded for my writing to be coherent, meaningful or both.

Quite frankly, it would've been classier to just admit you hadn't quite grasped his example instead of labeling it as "stupid" - again, another unneeded absolute - or that perhaps you did not think you had sent the point across. Who knows, maybe it could've even benefited your exchange instead of this random talk about logical fallacies.

[Kanassa]

You know, re-watching the Future Trunks Arc, I had a laugh at the real cruel irony in Trunks's future.

Dude dedicates everything to protecting his home, training himself half to death, doing his best to take out threats before they have a chance to kick his ass, caring about the random bystanders and even going across time to get one chance of saving his world. And in the end, his timeline gets erased. Goku and Vegeta on the other hand seem to do everything in their power to make a bad situation worse with every threat, letting the Androids come to power, letting their enemies transform, aiding in Buus resurrection for the sake of pride, hiding their transformations for some reason, playing around with Frieza and thus allowing him to blow up the planet. And yet, they basically get a pat on the back and a second chance to redo.

Probably best for Trunks that he didn't get to hear all the shit that happened after he left, or he'd just stab himself when he realises that the universe just fucking hates him.

[jeffbr92]

Ok, now I'm a Gohan fan and I usually don't complain about power levels, but man things are getting out of hand. Like someone said before: What's the point of showing Goku and Vegeta training with Gods and achieving a great power boost if suddenly everyone can get the same by training with the simplest methods?

I love that Gohan is getting his deserved screentime, I love that he is training for the sake of protecting his loved ones, but what the fuck? He always had ''Mystic''? He lost? Or he in fact forgot to use? The series is not clear about this.

Gohan reaching a level that Goku only got after doing a special ritual and training with Whis by just training in the wasteland with Piccolo for less than 20 hours, don't feel right to me.

OK, Gohanfags will definitely like the episode

Was there any need to be this ofensive to fellow members man?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

You know, re-watching the Future Trunks Arc, I had a laugh at the real cruel irony in Trunks's future.

[spoiler]Dude dedicates everything to protecting his home, training himself half to death, doing his best to take out threats before they have a chance to kick his ass, caring about the random bystanders and even going across time to get one chance of saving his world. And in the end, his timeline gets erased. Goku and Vegeta on the other hand seem to do everything in their power to make a bad situation worse with every threat, letting the Androids come to power, letting their enemies transform, aiding in Buus resurrection for the sake of pride, hiding their transformations for some reason, playing around with Frieza and thus allowing him to blow up the planet. And yet, they basically get a pat on the back and a second chance to redo.

Probably best for Trunks that he didn't get to hear all the shit that happened after he left, or he'd just stab himself when he realises that the universe just fucking hates him.[/spoiler]

When you put it in that perspective, yeah. Future!Trunks is not allowed to have a happy story.

[dbzfan7]

Ok, now I'm a Gohan fan and I usually don't complain about power levels, but man things are getting out of hand. Like someone said before: What's the point of showing Goku and Vegeta training with Gods and achieving a great power boost if suddenly everyone can get the same by training with the simplest methods?

I love that Gohan is getting his deserved screentime, I love that he is training for the sake of protecting his loved ones, but what the fuck? He always had ''Mystic''? He lost? Or he in fact forgot to use? The series is not clear about this.

Gohan reaching a level that Goku only got after doing a special ritual and training with Whis by just training in the wasteland with Piccolo for less than 20 hours, don't feel right to me.

I really do hate how the series made a big deal about this level, and then suddenly mundane methods left and right are achieving it. We don't know where Gohan stands, but I won't be surprised if small training just ends up throwing him in this tier as the special god tier they spent so long trying to build up is continually shat on.

[spoiler]You know, re-watching the Future Trunks Arc, I had a laugh at the real cruel irony in Trunks's future.

Dude dedicates everything to protecting his home, training himself half to death, doing his best to take out threats before they have a chance to kick his ass, caring about the random bystanders and even going across time to get one chance of saving his world. And in the end, his timeline gets erased. Goku and Vegeta on the other hand seem to do everything in their power to make a bad situation worse with every threat, letting the Androids come to power, letting their enemies transform, aiding in Buus resurrection for the sake of pride, hiding their transformations for some reason, playing around with Frieza and thus allowing him to blow up the planet. And yet, they basically get a pat on the back and a second chance to redo.

Probably best for Trunks that he didn't get to hear all the shit that happened after he left, or he'd just stab himself when he realises that the universe just fucking hates him.[/spoiler]

Well Trunks is a character all about tragedy and hope. So it makes sense it's kept that way. Just like how Bardock is supposed to be a tragic figure, so is Trunks. Happy endings I don't feel suit them.

[kinisking]

OK, Gohanfags will definitely like the episode, but now I too think this is dragging too much. Start the damn tournament already lol.

Gohanfags? Put some effort in your insults please.

It's only been like 6 episodes since we had the prelims, you guys have no patience. What happened to wanting buildup and a slower pace ?

[Lapislettuce]

Gohan has had his potential built up as a thing since DAY 1. Secondly he didn't start off super strong and in the upper tier. He still would have died to the likes of Raditz or Nappa early on even. His potential slowly grew and evolved over time which we could see. He didn't just suddenly start of in the highest tier just cause. You can call the magic spell thing out of nowhere if you want, but you'd have to include Zenkai's, The Holy Water, The God transformation, and a butt load of other stuff on that list if you want to go down that path.

Secondly the God level is far beyond normal potential. Ask Goku. He said he NEVER could have gotten this strong on his own. He said it was a realm he never could have hoped to reach. So it's something far surpassing mortal potential. Also Gohan since day 1 has been stated to have more potential than Goku. Day 1. So him being able to one day surpass Goku by taking the same path makes sense, since it's literally always been a thing. Of course in such a short time I do have a problem with.

You seem to be thinking because Toriyama said something, it's ok. Toriyama said this about Freeza, and I never accepted that. I thought it was dumb. Toriyama is not infallible. Just because he says something, doesn't make it suddenly not stupid. I very much appreciate 17 having a long training period. I don't appreciate there is no background on said period, and he once again falls into the trap of suddenly having massive potential out of nowhere for the sake of it. He was not built up at all previously. Nowhere in the series beforehand did he have any sort of mention of being this special. If he did, I'd be more accepting. Cell was the one portrayed as the pinnacle and far more special than 17.

There isn't a double standard or hypocrisy, because I still AM calling bullshit on Gohan if he does something like that. You seem to be using that to try and defend 17 like a fanboy, when people here talking about Gohan, ALREADY know it's bullshit for Gohan. They are fully aware. However unlike the others, Gohan has been built up since day 1. Does that fix the bullshit with Gohan? No. However he at least isn't randomly thrown in as a special snowflake out of nowhere, just cause. That is what people are upset about. No build up for guys like Freeza or 17. They just suddenly are special snowflakes, just cause. The reasoning behind it is so shallow, I can literally apply it to everyone who doesn't train if I feel like it. It's trying to become some get out of jail free card like "Lol magic don't have to explain" or "Lol techno babble no explanation needed." That is what pisses people off.

For either Freeza or 17 I could do a shit ton better job of getting them to this level, without making it such a stupid out of nowhere way. For Freeza, have Champa and Vados be the one's who use him as a secret pawn to get stronger, to further their goals for the Super Dragon Balls, thus setting up the next arc and the current one. For 17 just have him go on a space intergalactic trip that ends up giving him some form of enhancement to his infinite energy system or something like that. Or have some space scientist unlock his Cyborg parts for more power. Something like that to give some better reasoning. No one has a problem with the concept of 17 or Freeza getting stronger. They just hate how it's handled.

You can't compare 17 to Frieza considering 17 trained far longer than Frieza and Frieza trained with some fodder while 17's whole training is a totale mystery and when i say "hypocrisy or double standard" i'm not talking about you,anyway 17 was originally far stronger than Cell before Cell absorbed humans and absorbed him and his sister,Cell needed 17 to become stronger while 17 doesn't need to absorb anyone,i think the problem here is people not accepting that other beings/races can grow in strength faster than saiyans,especially when this later was already stronger than a super saiyan originally without any efforts or training and if Toriyama says that he couldn't showcase 17's strength in the past (which i totally get considering there was so much going on in the buu saga that he probably forgot about him) and that he has an enormous potencial i'm going to believe it,he's the creator of all this basically if we "ignore" what he says it's disrespectful to him,and again Gohan was supposed to be the main character of course he has more built up than 17 don't even compare it,people just don't look at the bigger picture or at least they don't want to because they already have an idea of who should be stronger in their mind and who shouldn't.

No that is not it at all. People would be far more accepting if the reasoning behind it was actually good. That's what the issue is. The reasoning is absolute horse shit. Cell was the one with the true potential and ultimate pinnacle of Gero. He said that a whole bunch. He was only weaker because he had to go into his larval form to use the time machine, and build himself back up by absorbing humans. That much is said. 17 and 18 were designed to create the ultimate being. That was the story arc. That was the establishment. If they want to change that fine, then give A GOOD REASON!

Above I covered how to make both work. Anyone can be as strong as they want, so long as there is a good reason and build up to it. A nice narrative piece to accompany such a direction. I compare Freeza and 17 as 2 people who never had such potential, but suddenly do when no such thing was ever shown before. That is what I compare. You can have Roshi or Yamcha in god tier for all I care, but have a damn good reason and backstory to it. Don't just go "Lol trained somehow so I am now".

If Super wasn't so terrible at set ups and build ups, while immediately jumping into a pay off, 17 and Freeza would be just fine. But no they just immediately want to launch right into a pay off. Thankfully at least Gohan is getting set up and build up in this arc. Imagine if he got the same treatment here in Super. They could have just gone. "Hey guys I have massive potential and off screen, just made myself god tier. Just been training since the whole Freeza thing and am now a SSJB. How'd I do it? I got the potential lolz!"

Give people a full set up and build up, and I guarantee complaints would drop down a good 50% from power level enthusiasts. Add those two key factors in and suddenly you have a full explanation to changing the status quo, how the change started, what was done, and where it leads. Set up, build up, pay off. It's the ground to complete product pretty much everything goes through.

17 and 18 are the only enhanced humans in the show their potential is unique compared to the rest,Cell wasn't that special again because he needed people to get stronger he needed to absorb 17 and 18,Toriyama said that 17 and 18 can get stronger if they trained which is what 17 did and as far as we know we have no idea about how much he trained or how he trained moreover we have no idea what kind of gains an artificial human who doesn't need to sleep nor eat,have unlimited stamina and energy can obtain so you can't call it bs considering we don't even know their limits nor their whole capacity,it was already mentioned in the manga that 17 was power focused this power boost isn't out of no where especially that it's been over a decade.

[sintzu]

I think this is dragging too much. Start the damn tournament already.

Episode 90 will mark 2 months of waiting for it and with no starting point in sight I think we might end up waiting longer.

What happened to wanting buildup and a slower pace ?

We didn't want it to be this slow and most of it didn't make any sense.

[kinisking]

Kanassa's quote didn't exactly say he didn't like that Gohan is relevant though.

True. He just doesn't like him being as relevant as Goku. Still a lot of people would agree. I don't think he is as relevant as Goku though.

That is not what I said.

My post had nothing to do with relevancy, it was simply that I didn't like from a narritive point of view GOhan's character getting this powerful after the Cell saga, Buu Saga and all the time pre-ROF

Oh, when you said the same tier as him from a narrative stand point it made me think relevancy.

And I'm assuming you think he doesn't deserve it because he slacked off ? Or is it another reason?

[Ki Breaker]

Gohan reaching a level that Goku only got after doing a special ritual and training with Whis by just training in the wasteland with Piccolo for less than 20 hours, don't feel right to me.

The thing is, Gohan's base is already so strong with mystic, goku and Vegeta trained their base to increase its power with whis training, which gohan already has with kais unlock..

Now, all goku had to do after getting a powerful base is learn about god ki and how to transform using it..
Now that its already been figured out what to transform into and what to aim for, it all comes down to how quick gohan can learn to compress ki..
Gohan learns fast and he already got the natural potential to back it up..
Him getting down the god ki thing when pointed out by piccolo who was also a god himself Should be easy..
We know piccolo gave him some new "way" of training, it could just be the ki compression..

And there you go, Gohan's up there with SSB

[dbzfan7]

You can't compare 17 to Frieza considering 17 trained far longer than Frieza and Frieza trained with some fodder while 17's whole training is a totale mystery and when i say "hypocrisy or double standard" i'm not talking about you,anyway 17 was originally far stronger than Cell before Cell absorbed humans and absorbed him and his sister,Cell needed 17 to become stronger while 17 doesn't need to absorb anyone,i think the problem here is people not accepting that other beings/races can grow in strength faster than saiyans,especially when this later was already stronger than a super saiyan originally without any efforts or training and if Toriyama says that he couldn't showcase 17's strength in the past (which i totally get considering there was so much going on in the buu saga that he probably forgot about him) and that he has an enormous potencial i'm going to believe it,he's the creator of all this basically if we "ignore" what he says it's disrespectful to him,and again Gohan was supposed to be the main character of course he has more built up than 17 don't even compare it,people just don't look at the bigger picture or at least they don't want to because they already have an idea of who should be stronger in their mind and who shouldn't.

No that is not it at all. People would be far more accepting if the reasoning behind it was actually good. That's what the issue is. The reasoning is absolute horse shit. Cell was the one with the true potential and ultimate pinnacle of Gero. He said that a whole bunch. He was only weaker because he had to go into his larval form to use the time machine, and build himself back up by absorbing humans. That much is said. 17 and 18 were designed to create the ultimate being. That was the story arc. That was the establishment. If they want to change that fine, then give A GOOD REASON!

Above I covered how to make both work. Anyone can be as strong as they want, so long as there is a good reason and build up to it. A nice narrative piece to accompany such a direction. I compare Freeza and 17 as 2 people who never had such potential, but suddenly do when no such thing was ever shown before. That is what I compare. You can have Roshi or Yamcha in god tier for all I care, but have a damn good reason and backstory to it. Don't just go "Lol trained somehow so I am now".

If Super wasn't so terrible at set ups and build ups, while immediately jumping into a pay off, 17 and Freeza would be just fine. But no they just immediately want to launch right into a pay off. Thankfully at least Gohan is getting set up and build up in this arc. Imagine if he got the same treatment here in Super. They could have just gone. "Hey guys I have massive potential and off screen, just made myself god tier. Just been training since the whole Freeza thing and am now a SSJB. How'd I do it? I got the potential lolz!"

Give people a full set up and build up, and I guarantee complaints would drop down a good 50% from power level enthusiasts. Add those two key factors in and suddenly you have a full explanation to changing the status quo, how the change started, what was done, and where it leads. Set up, build up, pay off. It's the ground to complete product pretty much everything goes through.

17 and 18 are the only enhanced humans in the show their potential is unique compared to the rest,Cell wasn't that special again because he needed people to get stronger he needed to absorb 17 and 18,Toriyama said that 17 and 18 can get stronger if they trained which is what 17 did and as far as we know we have no idea about how much he trained or how he trained moreover we have no idea what kind of gains an artificial human who doesn't need to sleep nor eat,have unlimited stamina and energy can obtain so you can't call it bs considering we don't even know their limits nor their whole capacity,it was already mentioned in the manga that 17 was power focused this power boost isn't out of no where especially that it's been over a decade.

Cell was the ultimate creation of Gero. If it were the other way around, Gero would have just not bothered with him. That's why he made Cell. He's labeled the ultimate artificial human for a reason. It's changed not by good story reason, but because of fan service.

You're missing the point entirely. Set up, build up, pay off. They are missing the first 2. 17 is the case of jumping right into a pay off. If they set up and built him up properly in the series itself, there would be no problem. But they didn't. They threw a pay off at him. If everyone was done this way, Gohan would basically be saying what I just said. No set up, no build up, just saying he got real good from training somehow. By this logic and lack of explaining. I can make Roshi into god tier if I wanted to easily. Just gotta make up a half hearted bullshit training start. Cover it up by he did it mysteriously so we can't judge for some reason, and say he possibly tapped into something he never had.

Yes I can call bullshit because none of it is set up or built up properly. It's never been a thing until they literally went "Hey did you guys know Freeza and 17 are really awesome...no really." I don't even expect a long arc for them, but they did nothing. I have no issue with them powering up, but not to such a massive degree that's way out of left field. Hell Piccolo is handled so much better than Freeza and 17 combined. I'm surprised they didn't just pull this shit with him too.

[Kanassa]

[spoiler]You know, re-watching the Future Trunks Arc, I had a laugh at the real cruel irony in Trunks's future.

Dude dedicates everything to protecting his home, training himself half to death, doing his best to take out threats before they have a chance to kick his ass, caring about the random bystanders and even going across time to get one chance of saving his world. And in the end, his timeline gets erased. Goku and Vegeta on the other hand seem to do everything in their power to make a bad situation worse with every threat, letting the Androids come to power, letting their enemies transform, aiding in Buus resurrection for the sake of pride, hiding their transformations for some reason, playing around with Frieza and thus allowing him to blow up the planet. And yet, they basically get a pat on the back and a second chance to redo.

Probably best for Trunks that he didn't get to hear all the shit that happened after he left, or he'd just stab himself when he realises that the universe just fucking hates him.[/spoiler]

Well Trunks is a character all about tragedy and hope. So it makes sense it's kept that way. Just like how Bardock is supposed to be a tragic figure, so is Trunks. Happy endings I don't feel suit them.

I know it completely fits Turnks character, I was just saying that it makes him all the more tragic and ironic. Especially with this arc building up the Uni 7 team as the 'bad guys', when being the bad guys is what somehow made their universe the safer one. Really, the only thing missing is Trunks in-universe being seen as a villain for one final quick shot to the stomach

[kinisking]

I think this is dragging too much. Start the damn tournament already.

Episode 90 will mark 2 months of waiting for it and with no starting point in sight I think we might end up waiting longer.

What happened to wanting buildup and a slower pace ?

We didn't want it to be this slow and most of it didn't make any sense.

Most of it didn't make sense? What an exaggeration.

[Lapislettuce]

No that is not it at all. People would be far more accepting if the reasoning behind it was actually good. That's what the issue is. The reasoning is absolute horse shit. Cell was the one with the true potential and ultimate pinnacle of Gero. He said that a whole bunch. He was only weaker because he had to go into his larval form to use the time machine, and build himself back up by absorbing humans. That much is said. 17 and 18 were designed to create the ultimate being. That was the story arc. That was the establishment. If they want to change that fine, then give A GOOD REASON!

Above I covered how to make both work. Anyone can be as strong as they want, so long as there is a good reason and build up to it. A nice narrative piece to accompany such a direction. I compare Freeza and 17 as 2 people who never had such potential, but suddenly do when no such thing was ever shown before. That is what I compare. You can have Roshi or Yamcha in god tier for all I care, but have a damn good reason and backstory to it. Don't just go "Lol trained somehow so I am now".

If Super wasn't so terrible at set ups and build ups, while immediately jumping into a pay off, 17 and Freeza would be just fine. But no they just immediately want to launch right into a pay off. Thankfully at least Gohan is getting set up and build up in this arc. Imagine if he got the same treatment here in Super. They could have just gone. "Hey guys I have massive potential and off screen, just made myself god tier. Just been training since the whole Freeza thing and am now a SSJB. How'd I do it? I got the potential lolz!"

Give people a full set up and build up, and I guarantee complaints would drop down a good 50% from power level enthusiasts. Add those two key factors in and suddenly you have a full explanation to changing the status quo, how the change started, what was done, and where it leads. Set up, build up, pay off. It's the ground to complete product pretty much everything goes through.

17 and 18 are the only enhanced humans in the show their potential is unique compared to the rest,Cell wasn't that special again because he needed people to get stronger he needed to absorb 17 and 18,Toriyama said that 17 and 18 can get stronger if they trained which is what 17 did and as far as we know we have no idea about how much he trained or how he trained moreover we have no idea what kind of gains an artificial human who doesn't need to sleep nor eat,have unlimited stamina and energy can obtain so you can't call it bs considering we don't even know their limits nor their whole capacity,it was already mentioned in the manga that 17 was power focused this power boost isn't out of no where especially that it's been over a decade.

Cell was the ultimate creation of Gero. If it were the other way around, Gero would have just not bothered with him. That's why he made Cell. He's labeled the ultimate artificial human for a reason.

You're missing the point entirely. Set up, build up, pay off. They are missing the first 2. 17 is the case of jumping right into a pay off. If they set up and built him up properly in the series itself, there would be no problem. But they didn't. They threw a pay off at him. If everyone was done this way, Gohan would basically be saying what I just said. No set up, no build up, just saying he got real good from training somehow.

Yes I can call bullshit because none of it is set up or built up properly. It's never been a thing until they literally went "Hey did you guys know Freeza and 17 are really awesome...no really." I don't even expect a long arc for them, but they did nothing. I have no issue with them powering up, but not to such a massive degree that's way out of left field. Hell Piccolo is handled so much better than Freeza and 17 combined.

Again 17's potential could stand on it's own,he had over a decade to work on it,don't compare him to Cell when Cell himself needed him to get stronger,Gohan already had his potential unlocked many times and it doesn't make sense for him to come close to Goku and Vegeta's level for the simple reason he didn't train with Whis,at least 17 is not a saiyan but Gohan is a saiyan and he always have that power up that surpasses Goku and Vegeta and why ? because he's Gohan. at least make him train with Whis in the time chamber or something like that.

[jeffbr92]

Ok, now I'm a Gohan fan and I usually don't complain about power levels, but man things are getting out of hand. Like someone said before: What's the point of showing Goku and Vegeta training with Gods and achieving a great power boost if suddenly everyone can get the same by training with the simplest methods?

I love that Gohan is getting his deserved screentime, I love that he is training for the sake of protecting his loved ones, but what the fuck? He always had ''Mystic''? He lost? Or he in fact forgot to use? The series is not clear about this.

Gohan reaching a level that Goku only got after doing a special ritual and training with Whis by just training in the wasteland with Piccolo for less than 20 hours, don't feel right to me.

I really do hate how the series made a big deal about this level, and then suddenly mundane methods left and right are achieving it. We don't know where Gohan stands, but I won't be surprised if small training just ends up throwing him in this tier as the special god tier they spent so long trying to build up is continually shat on.

And I won't be surprised if then again in the next arc we got some lame excuse for him to be weaker again and less participative.

Gohan reaching a level that Goku only got after doing a special ritual and training with Whis by just training in the wasteland with Piccolo for less than 20 hours, don't feel right to me.

The thing is, Gohan's base is already so strong with mystic, goku and Vegeta trained their base to increase its power with whis training, which gohan already has with kais unlock..

Now, all goku had to do after getting a powerful base is learn about god ki and how to transform using it..
Now that its already been figured out what to transform into and what to aim for, it all comes down to how quick gohan can learn to compress ki..
Gohan learns fast and he already got the natural potential to back it up..
Him getting down the god ki thing when pointed out by piccolo who was also a god himself Should be easy..
We know piccolo gave him some new "way" of training, it could just be the ki compression..

And there you go, Gohan's up there with SSB

You are a fan like me, you don't need to be biased about it just because it's Gohan.

Base Goku power is a unsolved mystery in Super yet, some say he is stronger as a SSJ God and others says he is just a little bit stronger than Boo Arc counterpart (which don't make sense for me IMO)

Like dbzfan7 said above it doesn't make sense that they made a huge deal about reaching the level of Gods so to now everyone can get the same much more easily, they spent a long time training with Whis to achieve this kinda level. We don't see any special method is just a usual training in the wasteland between Gohan and Piccolo and was more efficient than training in RoSaT or with Whis you may like it but I think it is bullcrap, sorry