Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Vegetes]

Not Using direct powerlevels, these are numbers to represent what I think it's accurate to:

- means or less, + means or more
Z SSj3 Vegito: 1450
Ssjg Goku: 1600
Base BoG Goku:21.33
Rof SSjb Goku and Vegeta: 250000 -
Golden Frieza:260000 -
Tournament ssjb Goku and Vegeta: 267500 - -
Hit tornament ark: 2140000
Black ark ssjb Goku: 275000 + -
Hit Goku assassination: 2942500
Ssjb Vegito: 55 million - -
Beerus: 1 quadrillion + + +
Whis: 100 quadrillion + + + +
Zen-ho guards: 1.5 quadrillion + + +
Grand priest : 10 quintillion + + + + + + +
Zen-ho( in regular power level numbers): Google

GT:
Ssj4 Goku 270000 + - -
Ssj4 Vegeta 265000 + - -
Omega Shenron: 360000 + + + - -
Ssj4 Gogeta: 25 million + - -

Do you realize what a quadrillion is? There's no way that scale would work. SSB Vegetto is definately closer to Beerus than that!! 55 million is extremely small compared to 1 quadrillion. I don't think Beerus is that strong. Your God tier characters are way too high in relation to the other members on this list. Also, Zenchan doesn't have fighting power so he shouldn't really be on this list. He just have hax god powers not fighting strength. Didn't you learn from Whis, not everything can be measured by battle strength?

Yes I understand, Tha ABSOLUTE MASSIVENESS of a quadrillion, I can't even comprehend it, just thinking about it is crazy, but that's just how strong super is probably,


But yeah you're right, ssjb Vegito is probably more close to a couple billion, I didn't think ahead on Vegito enough.

And yeah these are a bit too high, but I'm trying to stay with General consensus that Super is just that much stronger, I don't live by numbers, in fact I think it's dumb and the show deosnt try to think like this, this is just a random idea of what i would maybe Imagine, it's not that accurate.

And yeah ssjb are WAAAAAYYYY closer than I depicted, idk what I was thinking :p .

[Marlowe89]

Personally, I feel that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are around Ultimate Gohan's full power currently.

While that's certainly something I could get behind if the series provides further credence for the idea, I think you might be highballing a bit here.

The Goku vs. Gohan spar is distinct from Goku's spars with Krillin in that Goku only became a Super Saiyan there because Gohan specifically asked him not to hold back. To solidify this point even more, the two were getting into the fight so much that they became completely unaware of their surroundings, which typically only occurs when Goku is either no longer holding back or holding back considerably less than he would have been otherwise. Then there's Goku's match with Buu where Buu distracts Goku with ki blasts, rushes him before he can react to defend himself and knocks him to the ground with him feeling hurt by the time the match is finished.

Personally my estimation for base Goku's strength would have to range (roughly) from his SS2 to SS3 levels in the Buu arc; or maybe a bit stronger than SS3 at most.

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan's "original power" and/or "original strength" in context was his Potential unleashed state in which he no longer needs Super Saiyan. It wasn't a specific power level. It's a state. The state itself is Gohan's original strength.

Base Gohan was stated and shown to be Ultimate during the exhibition match by Toei before he got his bang in this episode and he has the exact same traits that he had during BOG. His Ultimate form just didn't have all of his potential in it which is why Super Saiyan was still useful. Gohan in Super was stated to have potential greater than post god Goku & Vegeta, so obviously his Boo arc power level which he showed during the exhibition match is nowhere near his max potential.

Base Gohan was equal to base Goku, whom is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He then got 50x stronger as an SSJ and fought evenly with Goku. He went SSJ2 against Piccolo and fought at a level 2x greater than that. Ultimate Gohan during the Boo arc wasn't even 2x stronger than Gotenks.

What subs are you basing this on? In Crunchyroll's, Piccolo mentions the power Gohan used when he fought Boo. So, as a SS2, Gohan doesn't have that power.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yeah, Piccolo wanted Gohan to use the power he used against Boo. The Potential unleashed state that is above his Super Saiyan. If Gohan is still using Super Saiyan, then it isn't the same power he used against Boo. Just like Beerus stating that Super Saiyan was the power that Goku defeated Freeza with. Doesn't mean that BOG Goku=Namek Goku and going by your logic all forms of Super Saiyan are the same power because they're Super Saiyan which they clearly aren't.

Gohan was stated to be Ultimate before this episode, before he gained his bang back. Therefore he was Ultimate during the exhibition match. He simply has more potential than before, so even though he was equal to his Boo arc level, he still benefited from Super Saiyan.

Ultimate Gohan(Full potential)>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Gohan=SSJ Goku>Base Goku=Base Gohan(Ultimate)=BOG Ultimate Gohan=Boo arc Ulimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks

You actually didn't bring nothing new to your post. You are confusing power with form. Unless you do have a different translation to what chikara means in this context, it is implied Gohan hasn't been using against Piccolo power comparable to what he used against Boo.

[Bullza]

At this point I think Base Goku is either

1. As strong as he was in the Resurrection F saga. So stronger than Super Saiyan God still without any change since then.

Or

2. As strong as he was at the start of Dragon Ball Super. So he's not as strong as Super Saiyan God unless he turns Blue.

I wouldn't think he was at some random level in between but you never know. He's supposed to fight Gohan again soon right? We'll see how that turns out.

[Marlowe89]

I wouldn't think he was at some random level in between but you never know.

I don't think there's anything "random" about it. The show repeatedly makes the case that Goku is always training and becoming stronger; that's a central theme of his character.

I doubt he's still going to be as low as his Buu arc base level this far into the show. I don't even think that's the case in the manga.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Oh, my god! Seriously?! It's really not this complicated. You're making this unnecessarily confusing when it doesn't need to be. This is just wrong.

You're advocating for the 2 base theory despite it not being implied anywhere. I'm not the one making things complicated.

You actually didn't bring nothing new to your post. You are confusing power with form. Unless you do have a different translation to what chikara means in this context, it is implied Gohan hasn't been using against Piccolo power comparable to what he used against Boo.

I'm not confusing anything. The semantics you're trying to argue to make it seem like the work contradicted itself is pointless.
The form is power by definition, just like all of the Super Saiyan forms are power. Just like Super Saiyan is the power that defeated Freeza. Just like Trunks had the same power that Goku had on Namek.

Your interpretation isn't implied any more than mine is. Rather it's flat out contradicted by what Toei already stated and showed in their design art. My interpretation is consistent with that and the fact that Gohan is as strong as Goku in equal forms, whom is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in base.

[Hugo Boss]

Oh, my god! Seriously?! It's really not this complicated. You're making this unnecessarily confusing when it doesn't need to be. This is just wrong.

You're advocating for the 2 base theory despite it not being implied anywhere. I'm not the one making things complicated.

You actually didn't bring nothing new to your post. You are confusing power with form. Unless you do have a different translation to what chikara means in this context, it is implied Gohan hasn't been using against Piccolo power comparable to what he used against Boo.

I'm not confusing anything. The semantics you're trying to argue to make it seem like the work contradicted itself is pointless.
The form is power by definition, just like all of the Super Saiyan forms are power. Just like Super Saiyan is the power that defeated Freeza. Just like Trunks had the same power that Goku had on Namek.

Your interpretation isn't implied any more than mine is. Rather it's flat out contradicted by what Toei already stated and showed in their design art. My interpretation is consistent with that and the fact that Gohan is as strong as Goku in equal forms, whom is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in base.

I don't know where you are getting this from. Provide sources, please. I'm talking about one particular line, which is worded in very clear English. It doesn't make sense for Piccolo to call the power Gohan used against Boo if he has been putting out more power than that all along. Not to mention your interpretation ignores the context of the episode, which is putting Gohan back to shape. It would be incredible that Gohan can get stronger only by studying and researching.

[avasatu]

My intuition tells me that Goku can exist with or without god ki. If he goes SS without god ki, we end up with the golden haired forms SS1-SS3. If he goes SS with god ki, we get SS Blue. This lends credence to the statement made by Goku, where he said something to the effect of "SS Blue is the power of a Super Saiyan mixed with the power of a god." Forgive me for the inevitable misquote.

The one issue with this is the manga re-displaying the SSG form recently. The only way we can interpret that as sensical is if we imagine SSG merely as a weakened form of SSB with fewer stamina issues, rather than as a direct power up. We could imagine that Vegeta figured out how to accomplish such a thing in his training.

Two things that could ruin my theory:

1) The existence of a fight post-Beerus arc where it is heavily implied Goku is using god level powers while in SS1. This would in fact mean that SSB is more than just SS combined with god ki, as there would be no need for SS1 otherwise. I can't think of such a fight off the top of my head, nor can I find one by doing some quick googling.

2) The huge boost in 17s power. If SS1 is just the SS powerup in non-god base form, then why does Goku, in his fight with 17, jump from SS1 to SSB, which is many orders of magnitude more powerful? Wouldn't a jump to SS2 or SS3 suffice?

Perhaps Goku is both trying to show off his god powers to those who have not seen it, and/or trying to develop some kind of control over all his forms and levels that will make his upcoming implied power boost easier for him to accomplish and more perfected. Maybe he is practicing for this boost, which I assume is some kind of complete Kaioken, by fighting in all different forms at all different power levels, with and without god ki, etc. Maybe this is why he has been spamming KK in fights where it's clearly not needed.

[ZombieVito]

My intuition tells me that Goku can exist with or without god ki. If he goes SS without god ki, we end up with the golden haired forms SS1-SS3. If he goes SS with god ki, we get SS Blue. This lends credence to the statement made by Goku, where he said something to the effect of "SS Blue is the power of a Super Saiyan mixed with the power of a god." Forgive me for the inevitable misquote.

The one issue with this is the manga re-displaying the SSG form recently. The only way we can interpret that as sensical is if we imagine SSG merely as a weakened form of SSB with fewer stamina issues, rather than as a direct power up. We could imagine that Vegeta figured out how to accomplish such a thing in his training.

Two things that could ruin my theory:

1) The existence of a fight post-Beerus arc where it is heavily implied Goku is using god level powers while in SS1. This would in fact mean that SSB is more than just SS combined with god ki, as there would be no need for SS1 otherwise. I can't think of such a fight off the top of my head, nor can I find one by doing some quick googling.

2) The huge boost in 17s power. If SS1 is just the SS powerup in non-god base form, then why does Goku, in his fight with 17, jump from SS1 to SSB, which is many orders of magnitude more powerful? Wouldn't a jump to SS2 or SS3 suffice?

Perhaps Goku is both trying to show off his god powers to those who have not seen it, and/or trying to develop some kind of control over all his forms and levels that will make his upcoming implied power boost easier for him to accomplish and more perfected. Maybe he is practicing for this boost, which I assume is some kind of complete Kaioken, by fighting in all different forms at all different power levels, with and without god ki, etc. Maybe this is why he has been spamming KK in fights where it's clearly not needed.

It's not actually god ki. It's the power of Super Saiyan God they tap to turn blue.

What post-Beerus arc fight? I don't remember Super Saiyan Goku ever performing on god level after that arc.

I suppose Super Saiyan Blue has better ki control and stamina than Super Saiyan 2 and 3. Your explanation about wanting to show off is also a good one.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Oh, my god! Seriously?! It's really not this complicated. You're making this unnecessarily confusing when it doesn't need to be. This is just wrong.

You're advocating for the 2 base theory despite it not being implied anywhere. I'm not the one making things complicated.

That is very far-stretched to say that it is not implied absolutely anywhere.

Even if Goku confirmed he had two bases, you wouldn't accept it, dude. You kinda twist stuff.

[avasatu]

My intuition tells me that Goku can exist with or without god ki. If he goes SS without god ki, we end up with the golden haired forms SS1-SS3. If he goes SS with god ki, we get SS Blue. This lends credence to the statement made by Goku, where he said something to the effect of "SS Blue is the power of a Super Saiyan mixed with the power of a god." Forgive me for the inevitable misquote.

The one issue with this is the manga re-displaying the SSG form recently. The only way we can interpret that as sensical is if we imagine SSG merely as a weakened form of SSB with fewer stamina issues, rather than as a direct power up. We could imagine that Vegeta figured out how to accomplish such a thing in his training.

Two things that could ruin my theory:

1) The existence of a fight post-Beerus arc where it is heavily implied Goku is using god level powers while in SS1. This would in fact mean that SSB is more than just SS combined with god ki, as there would be no need for SS1 otherwise. I can't think of such a fight off the top of my head, nor can I find one by doing some quick googling.

2) The huge boost in 17s power. If SS1 is just the SS powerup in non-god base form, then why does Goku, in his fight with 17, jump from SS1 to SSB, which is many orders of magnitude more powerful? Wouldn't a jump to SS2 or SS3 suffice?

Perhaps Goku is both trying to show off his god powers to those who have not seen it, and/or trying to develop some kind of control over all his forms and levels that will make his upcoming implied power boost easier for him to accomplish and more perfected. Maybe he is practicing for this boost, which I assume is some kind of complete Kaioken, by fighting in all different forms at all different power levels, with and without god ki, etc. Maybe this is why he has been spamming KK in fights where it's clearly not needed.

It's not actually god ki. It's the power of Super Saiyan God they tap to turn blue.

What post-Beerus arc fight? I don't remember Super Saiyan Goku ever performing on god level after that arc.

I suppose Super Saiyan Blue has better ki control and stamina than Super Saiyan 2 and 3. Your explanation about wanting to show off is also a good one.

I'm just saying that if such a fight exists, it nullifies my theory. And I'm using the term "god ki" loosely here. I just mean whatever energy/stamina/ki control increase is responsible for the godly levels of power.

[ChiefWamsutta]

My intuition tells me that Goku can exist with or without god ki. If he goes SS without god ki, we end up with the golden haired forms SS1-SS3. If he goes SS with god ki, we get SS Blue. This lends credence to the statement made by Goku, where he said something to the effect of "SS Blue is the power of a Super Saiyan mixed with the power of a god." Forgive me for the inevitable misquote.

The one issue with this is the manga re-displaying the SSG form recently. The only way we can interpret that as sensical is if we imagine SSG merely as a weakened form of SSB with fewer stamina issues, rather than as a direct power up. We could imagine that Vegeta figured out how to accomplish such a thing in his training.

Two things that could ruin my theory:

1) The existence of a fight post-Beerus arc where it is heavily implied Goku is using god level powers while in SS1. This would in fact mean that SSB is more than just SS combined with god ki, as there would be no need for SS1 otherwise. I can't think of such a fight off the top of my head, nor can I find one by doing some quick googling.

2) The huge boost in 17s power. If SS1 is just the SS powerup in non-god base form, then why does Goku, in his fight with 17, jump from SS1 to SSB, which is many orders of magnitude more powerful? Wouldn't a jump to SS2 or SS3 suffice?

Perhaps Goku is both trying to show off his god powers to those who have not seen it, and/or trying to develop some kind of control over all his forms and levels that will make his upcoming implied power boost easier for him to accomplish and more perfected. Maybe he is practicing for this boost, which I assume is some kind of complete Kaioken, by fighting in all different forms at all different power levels, with and without god ki, etc. Maybe this is why he has been spamming KK in fights where it's clearly not needed.

It's not actually god ki. It's the power of Super Saiyan God they tap to turn blue.

What post-Beerus arc fight? I don't remember Super Saiyan Goku ever performing on god level after that arc.

I suppose Super Saiyan Blue has better ki control and stamina than Super Saiyan 2 and 3. Your explanation about wanting to show off is also a good one.

I'm just saying that if such a fight exists, it nullifies my theory. And I'm using the term "god ki" loosely here. I just mean whatever energy/stamina/ki control increase is responsible for the godly levels of power.

Yeah, it's subtly weird how the Saiyan forms work.

I see it as Saiyans have four possible inherent transformations: Great Ape, Super Saiyan, SSGod, SSBlue.

The Great Ape flaw is that it is too huge and not strong enough.

In order to strengthen Super Saiyan beyond Grade 1 the Z Fighters had to invent new grades. Its flaw seems to be that it can't keep ki inside.

SSGod is hugely more powerful, but its flaw is that it has a time limit. The only way to solve it is to merge with it.

SSBlue is the Super Saiyan versus of SSGod. It is stronger than SSGod, no time limit, and keeps ki inside perfectly which is why SSBlue2 and SSBlue3 won't exist.

[avasatu]

It's fairly tough for me to reconcile the somewhat recent appearance of red-haired SS god with this theory. If Vegeta has access to a black-haired base form that has god level power, and SSB is the SS version of a saiyan using god essence, then that would almost give Vegeta 3 base forms: black-haired base without god essence, black-haired base with god essence, and red-haired SS god. As I said before, though, I think that SS god is meant to be protrayed as a back-off stamina modification of SSB at this point rather than as a modification of base power as it was originally. Luckily, it hasn't re-appeared in the anime, which I suspect is on purpose.

[Ki Breaker]

Can we say buu saga mystic gohan is equal to goku base who faught with freeza?
This will make gohan reaching blue levels easy to digest, his base already is on par with goku, all he has to do is learn to Compress ki and voila..

[TheMikado]

My intuition tells me that Goku can exist with or without god ki. If he goes SS without god ki, we end up with the golden haired forms SS1-SS3. If he goes SS with god ki, we get SS Blue. This lends credence to the statement made by Goku, where he said something to the effect of "SS Blue is the power of a Super Saiyan mixed with the power of a god." Forgive me for the inevitable misquote.

The one issue with this is the manga re-displaying the SSG form recently. The only way we can interpret that as sensical is if we imagine SSG merely as a weakened form of SSB with fewer stamina issues, rather than as a direct power up. We could imagine that Vegeta figured out how to accomplish such a thing in his training.

Two things that could ruin my theory:

1) The existence of a fight post-Beerus arc where it is heavily implied Goku is using god level powers while in SS1. This would in fact mean that SSB is more than just SS combined with god ki, as there would be no need for SS1 otherwise. I can't think of such a fight off the top of my head, nor can I find one by doing some quick googling.

2) The huge boost in 17s power. If SS1 is just the SS powerup in non-god base form, then why does Goku, in his fight with 17, jump from SS1 to SSB, which is many orders of magnitude more powerful? Wouldn't a jump to SS2 or SS3 suffice?

Perhaps Goku is both trying to show off his god powers to those who have not seen it, and/or trying to develop some kind of control over all his forms and levels that will make his upcoming implied power boost easier for him to accomplish and more perfected. Maybe he is practicing for this boost, which I assume is some kind of complete Kaioken, by fighting in all different forms at all different power levels, with and without god ki, etc. Maybe this is why he has been spamming KK in fights where it's clearly not needed.

I hope you understand this is the two base theory and it's no coincidence that you have come to this conclusion by yourself. Any logical analysis of the story would lead to the same conclusion.

[Bullza]

Can we say buu saga mystic gohan is equal to goku base who faught with freeza?

Nah the Base Goku who fought Final From Frieza was stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

[Ki Breaker]

Can we say buu saga mystic gohan is equal to goku base who faught with freeza?

Nah the Base Goku who fought Final From Frieza was stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

But goku was matching gohan in base after that fight, so mystic base if goes god it should be way stonger than SSB now..

[OLKv3]

Gohan's latest powerup is the biggest asspull in a loong time, an even bigger asspull than Freeza's 4 months. I'm not mad about it since I enjoy characters getting relevant again, but I will call a spade a spade

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Gohan's latest powerup is the biggest asspull in a loong time, an even bigger asspull than Freeza's 4 months. I'm not mad about it since I enjoy characters getting relevant again, but I will call a spade a spade

At least Gohan actually had this power beforehand, and simply lost access to it due to a lack of training and a warrior's mind/heart.

[OLKv3]

Gohan's latest powerup is the biggest asspull in a loong time, an even bigger asspull than Freeza's 4 months. I'm not mad about it since I enjoy characters getting relevant again, but I will call a spade a spade

At least Gohan actually had this power beforehand, and simply lost access to it due to a lack of training and a warrior's mind/heart.

He had power to take down Super Buu, not to rival SSB Goku lmao