Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Goku specifically said one line, "even blue won't last long" just after he pulled the kaioken.
The reason it lasted that long because he was pushing himself too hard, we see him grip his arm out of pain in the fight..
This pushing isn't natural, and that's the reason he had the ki issue, king kai said it's bad to push yourself so much.. he goes on to say this is because of using ki in a reckless way..


Goku didn't know how long a match lasts, he is new to baseball, all he knew was he had to throw the ball fast

I thought that line was in reference to lasting long against hit in terms of being about to fight him and the "even" implies it would last longer than his other forms.
I understand the pushing using kaioken, but we are talking about just SSB. I was pointing out that even with 10x its normal ki use SSB did not seem to have time limit versus his other forms.

My point was SS can be used longer than SSB, even if we ignore everything, SS has been mastered to the point of maintaining it in sleep, but SSB needs very specific conditions to even transform, It's pretty natural for the form which you can even sleep in to be better at stamina usage than the one you haven't displayed such a feat with

What are the specific conditions? I'm not disagreeing that he should be able to hold SSJ longer but if SSB has perfect ki control he should to some extent be able also reduce that to minimum levels. How much SSB affects stamina is up in the air though. We don't get any indication one way or the other in the anime.

[Ki Breaker]

I thought that line was in reference to lasting long against hit in terms of being about to fight him and the "even" implies it would last longer than his other forms.
I understand the pushing using kaioken, but we are talking about just SSB. I was pointing out that even with 10x its normal ki use SSB did not seem to have time limit versus his other forms.

My point was SS can be used longer than SSB, even if we ignore everything, SS has been mastered to the point of maintaining it in sleep, but SSB needs very specific conditions to even transform, It's pretty natural for the form which you can even sleep in to be better at stamina usage than the one you haven't displayed such a feat with

What are the specific conditions? I'm not disagreeing that he should be able to hold SSJ longer but if SSB has perfect ki control he should to some extent be able also reduce that to minimum levels. How much SSB affects stamina is up in the air though. We don't get any indication one way or the other in the anime.

A calm mind and no ki leakage are the main ones,the no ki leakage needs concentration..
SS is better than SSB at stamina usage, and thus can be maintained longer, while SSB isn't terrible to the level of SS3 but still being inferior to SS..

[TheMikado]

My point was SS can be used longer than SSB, even if we ignore everything, SS has been mastered to the point of maintaining it in sleep, but SSB needs very specific conditions to even transform, It's pretty natural for the form which you can even sleep in to be better at stamina usage than the one you haven't displayed such a feat with

What are the specific conditions? I'm not disagreeing that he should be able to hold SSJ longer but if SSB has perfect ki control he should to some extent be able also reduce that to minimum levels. How much SSB affects stamina is up in the air though. We don't get any indication one way or the other in the anime.

A calm mind and no ki leakage are the main ones,the no ki leakage needs concentration..
SS is better than SSB at stamina usage, and thus can be maintained longer, while SSB isn't terrible to the level of SS3 but still being inferior to SS..

But again where are you getting this information? You just stated several things but when I am looking for where to find these statements in universe I'm turning up empty.
Where do they compare the SSB stamina usage, how do we know its better than SSJ3 but inferior to SSJ in terms of stamina? Where is this information coming from?

[ChiefWamsutta]

But goku was matching gohan in base after that fight, so mystic base if goes god it should be way stonger than SSB now..

Goku wasn't using Saiyan beyond God when he fought Gohan.

I use my theory with Two base theory as a support as well, but there is no mention of this in the show itself, I am looking for answers from the show if possible

Maybe try reading my thoughts. I wonder if it will help you.

I'm going to try and explain this.

We learned from this episode that Gohan is using Ultimate and Super Saiyan 2 again. He had not used these forms in DBS until Ep. 88 (BoG black-haired Gohan was his Base form). That means that during his fight in Super Saiyan against SS Goku, Gohan was near his Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1 powers.

If Super Saiyan 1 Gohan is approximately Super Saiyan 1 Goku, then their Bases should be the same. However, a Base Goku pushed a Beerus attack away during the end of Battle of Gods, as well as battled moderately okay against Monaka-Beerus.

Gohan absolutely was never above his Ultimate state when he fought Goku. This means Base Goku against Base Gohan MUST BE WEAK. Yet, how is it possible that Base Goku fights well against Beerus? THIS MUST RESULT IN A STRONG AND WEAK-LOOKING BASE.

So, here is my theory.

Also, if anyone says that some parts of DBS anime are not canon, please leave. We have been over this time and time and time again. I will be trying to find internal consistency.

Gohan has his Base form and his Ultimate transformation. This episode confirms that they are different things (his SS2 hair flickered into Ultimate, for god's sake). The confusion stems from the fact that they look too similar because of the black hair.

Gohan has two black-haired forms: Base and Ultimate. Goku should have two black-haired forms: Base and Super Saiyan God.

If Gohan's Base was not in Ultimate and he cannot stack Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate as people had thought ... then SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku, as shown during the field fight where Chi-Chi yells at them. If their SS1 forms are equal and their Base forms are equal, then Goku's Base form and SS1 form cannot be as strong as it was during Battle of Gods ... unless ...

My belief is that when Goku went SSGod and had red hair he lost it, but it got absorbed into his Super Saiyan form for a bit and then transitioned into his Base form. The SSGod power was merging with Goku's being. During DBS Ep. 14 his Super Saiyan form was very powerful, but as I spoke about ... SS1 should have only been that powerful in that moment. My idea is that for a VERY BRIEF BIT the SSGod power was imbedded in Goku's Super Saiyan form. When he is fighting the sun ball attack from Beerus he turns into Base form and is able to stop it. This should be when the SSGod power was merging with his Base form. It hadn't merged with his Base form yet because he went into SS1 during the ritual.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Our biggest issue has been whether Goku's power is incredibly strong now. With the recent episodes, we all seem to be in agreement that Goku's forms are all weaker than SSGod except for SSBlue. SS2 Goku and SS3 Goku during the Black arc make sense to be relatively around their Buu arc powers (how could Trunks get so strong to be above SSGod?). That leaves BoG Ep. 14 Super Saiyan and the weird instances of Goku's Base form being strong.

I think it makes sense to just say that the powerful SS1 at SSGod level was just the SSGod power being semi-merged with Goku. It only was fully merged after the sun ball attack. So Goku's Base would be relatively at Buu arc levels, and he now has Super Saiyan God but it looks and feels like a Base form. During DBS Ep. 14, Goku basically had Super Saiyan God, but it just looked and felt ki-wise like SS1. This idea works perfectly because he goes from SSGod to SS1 to Base and doesn't switch around among those. As seen in the graphic above and in the show, it is consistent. It makes sense to believe it was merging with him.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So Goku used Base against Botamo and Frost. He used a black-haired SSG against Hit and Monaka-Beerus. This makes things consistent, as they are both above SSG tier. Goku also could be said to use black-haired SSG against RoF Frieza. He didn't feel like he was jumping from relative Buu arc Base to SSB, as Frieza compares black-haired Goku to stronger than Majin Buu. The intent behind the RoF arc was that Goku's Base was around SSG anyways. Black-haired SSG explains how a seemingly Base Goku fought evenly with Base Copy-Vegeta who crushed SS3 Gotenks, yet Base Goku is around Base Gohan who was not Ultimate. This could explain why a strengthened Slim Buu didn't instantly kill a relative Buu arc Base Goku. He could have used black-haired SSG. This also keeps consistency with the DBS manga where Goku and Vegeta have SSGod. In the manga they have Base, SS1, SS2/SS3, SSG, SSB. In the anime they have Base, SS1, SS2/SS3, black-haired SSG, SSB.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Ki Breaker]

What are the specific conditions? I'm not disagreeing that he should be able to hold SSJ longer but if SSB has perfect ki control he should to some extent be able also reduce that to minimum levels. How much SSB affects stamina is up in the air though. We don't get any indication one way or the other in the anime.

A calm mind and no ki leakage are the main ones,the no ki leakage needs concentration..
SS is better than SSB at stamina usage, and thus can be maintained longer, while SSB isn't terrible to the level of SS3 but still being inferior to SS..

But again where are you getting this information? You just stated several things but when I am looking for where to find these statements in universe I'm turning up empty.
Where do they compare the SSB stamina usage, how do we know its better than SSJ3 but inferior to SSJ in terms of stamina? Where is this information coming from?

I am using logic on some inuniverse explanations

FPSS doesn't have stamina issues..

SS3 has really bad stamina usage, goku couldn't even maintain it long enough to finish buu

SSB can't be sensed, we know they compress ki to transform, but in base form they can be sensed, their compression is a conscious effort at keeping their ki inside.. Which they need concentration for..

SSB hasn't shown feats in stamina which FPSS has, but it has shown to be not as straining as SS3

This puts SS>SSB>SS3
In stamina usage..

Now, ignoring all the inuniverse examples provided, if goku could master SSB to that level as SS, he would have mastered it in the years he spent in the time chamber, but he didn't, because it's form that needs to meet the specific conditions mentioned, which can't be mastered to the extent as FPSS

[avasatu]

Gohan's latest powerup is the biggest asspull in a loong time, an even bigger asspull than Freeza's 4 months. I'm not mad about it since I enjoy characters getting relevant again, but I will call a spade a spade

What's going to be even more of a spade is when Gohan surpasses SSB in less than 9 hours.

[Ki Breaker]

Gohan's latest powerup is the biggest asspull in a loong time, an even bigger asspull than Freeza's 4 months. I'm not mad about it since I enjoy characters getting relevant again, but I will call a spade a spade

What's going to be even more of a spade is when Gohan surpasses SSB in less than 9 hours.

It's entirely possible, Gohan's power stems from the need to save others as well as his teacher piccolo is a former god who knows about god ki..
This phenomenon as been seen before It's even more potent than god ki and is regarded as "plot ki"

[TheMikado]

A calm mind and no ki leakage are the main ones,the no ki leakage needs concentration..
SS is better than SSB at stamina usage, and thus can be maintained longer, while SSB isn't terrible to the level of SS3 but still being inferior to SS..

But again where are you getting this information? You just stated several things but when I am looking for where to find these statements in universe I'm turning up empty.
Where do they compare the SSB stamina usage, how do we know its better than SSJ3 but inferior to SSJ in terms of stamina? Where is this information coming from?

I am using logic on some inuniverse explanations

FPSS doesn't have stamina issues..

SS3 has really bad stamina usage, goku couldn't even maintain it long enough to finish buu

SSB can't be sensed, we know they compress ki to transform, but in base form they can be sensed, their compression is a conscious effort at keeping their ki inside.. Which they need concentration for..

SSB hasn't shown feats in stamina which FPSS has, but it has shown to be not as straining as SS3

This puts SS>SSB>SS3
In stamina usage..

Now, ignoring all the inuniverse examples provided, if goku could master SSB to that level as SS, he would have mastered it in the years he spent in the time chamber, but he didn't, because it's form that needs to meet the specific conditions mentioned, which can't be mastered to the extent as FPSS

But SSB is built on SSJ, a form they already mastered to eliminate the stamina drain. The two additional criteria you cite. Peaceful mind and concentration sound a lot like mediation and I'm not sure how having those additional criteria translates directly into stamina drain. Again not stating it's not true but the evidence isn't there. It could be just as or even less stamina draining and we wouldn't know. We just have feats from when we saw them sleeping in the form and assume they can't do that in SSB.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Gohan's latest powerup is the biggest asspull in a loong time, an even bigger asspull than Freeza's 4 months. I'm not mad about it since I enjoy characters getting relevant again, but I will call a spade a spade

What's going to be even more of a spade is when Gohan surpasses SSB in less than 9 hours.

It's entirely possible, Gohan's power stems from the need to save others as well as his teacher piccolo is a former god who knows about god ki..
This phenomenon as been seen before It's even more potent than god ki and is regarded as "plot ki"

I have a question for you guys: Do you think SSBlue is a transformation that is natural to Saiyans (like Great Ape) and Goku unlocked it? OR do you think Goku invented it?

I feel like Super Saiyan Grades 2-6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage, SSRose, Ultimate, and SSB KK were all invented. Great Ape, Super Saiyan Grade 1, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue were all natural forms Saiyans could achieve.

[Ki Breaker]

I have a question for you guys: Do you think SSBlue is a transformation that is natural to Saiyans (like Great Ape) and Goku unlocked it? OR do you think Goku invented it?

I feel like Super Saiyan Grades 2-6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage, SSRose, Ultimate, and SSB KK were all invented. Great Ape, Super Saiyan Grade 1, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue were all natural forms Saiyans could achieve.

SS is natural, SSG is natural hence god ki is as well, Saiyan transformed with god ki is SSB, also natural..

[ChiefWamsutta]

I have a question for you guys: Do you think SSBlue is a transformation that is natural to Saiyans (like Great Ape) and Goku unlocked it? OR do you think Goku invented it?

I feel like Super Saiyan Grades 2-6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage, SSRose, Ultimate, and SSB KK were all invented. Great Ape, Super Saiyan Grade 1, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue were all natural forms Saiyans could achieve.

SS is natural, SSG is natural hence god ki is as well, Saiyan transformed with god ki is SSB, also natural..

Yeah, I agree. I try to think of it as if a random Saiyan could achieve these forms. Great Ape is obviously natural. SS Grade 1 is natural but is uncommon. SSGod and SSBlue are natural but really rare.

SS Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage just seem to be SS Grade 1 outputting more power and it takes on a new look. SSRose is just SSBlue but when a God uses it. SSB KK Goku created, obviously. Ultimate is just forcing out Gohan's power and it looks like Base.

[Ki Breaker]

I have a question for you guys: Do you think SSBlue is a transformation that is natural to Saiyans (like Great Ape) and Goku unlocked it? OR do you think Goku invented it?

I feel like Super Saiyan Grades 2-6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage, SSRose, Ultimate, and SSB KK were all invented. Great Ape, Super Saiyan Grade 1, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue were all natural forms Saiyans could achieve.

SS is natural, SSG is natural hence god ki is as well, Saiyan transformed with god ki is SSB, also natural..

Yeah, I agree. I try to think of it as if a random Saiyan could achieve these forms. Great Ape is obviously natural. SS Grade 1 is natural but is uncommon. SSGod and SSBlue are natural but really rare.

SS Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage just seem to be SS Grade 1 outputting more power and it takes on a new look. SSRose is just SSBlue but when a God uses it. SSB KK Goku created, obviously. Ultimate is just forcing out Gohan's power and it looks like Base.

SS grades is what happens when a Saiyan lacks creativity, think of it like wanting to increase your strength but using brute force to do so instead of brains..

Brute force
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Brains
[spoiler][/spoiler]

We know who's gonna win between those two, SS grades are natural as well, it's a Saiyan lacking creativity that's all..

SSI is what I like to call bull fucking shit, I don't believe it exists and I will never..
Any attempt to describe it becomes pointless, it is a pointless logicless pile of shit form, end of story

SSR, SSBKK & Ultimate are all fine

[ChiefWamsutta]

SS is natural, SSG is natural hence god ki is as well, Saiyan transformed with god ki is SSB, also natural..

Yeah, I agree. I try to think of it as if a random Saiyan could achieve these forms. Great Ape is obviously natural. SS Grade 1 is natural but is uncommon. SSGod and SSBlue are natural but really rare.

SS Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage just seem to be SS Grade 1 outputting more power and it takes on a new look. SSRose is just SSBlue but when a God uses it. SSB KK Goku created, obviously. Ultimate is just forcing out Gohan's power and it looks like Base.

SS grades is what happens when a Saiyan lacks creativity, think of it like wanting to increase your strength but using brute force to do so instead of brains..

Brute force
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Brains
[spoiler][/spoiler]

We know who's gonna win between those two, SS grades are natural as well, it's a Saiyan lacking creativity that's all..

SSI is what I like to call bull fucking shit, I don't believe it exists and I will never..
Any attempt to describe it becomes pointless, it is a pointless logicless pile of shit form, end of story

SSR, SSBKK & Ultimate are all fine

Haha, I like your hatred of SSRage. Yeah, I may not be describing well what I mean. I'm trying to say that SS Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage, etc. were invented. We had only heard of Great Ape, SS, SSGod. Like, there weren't tales of SS3.

[Ki Breaker]

Yeah, I agree. I try to think of it as if a random Saiyan could achieve these forms. Great Ape is obviously natural. SS Grade 1 is natural but is uncommon. SSGod and SSBlue are natural but really rare.

SS Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage just seem to be SS Grade 1 outputting more power and it takes on a new look. SSRose is just SSBlue but when a God uses it. SSB KK Goku created, obviously. Ultimate is just forcing out Gohan's power and it looks like Base.

SS grades is what happens when a Saiyan lacks creativity, think of it like wanting to increase your strength but using brute force to do so instead of brains..

Brute force
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Brains
[spoiler][/spoiler]

We know who's gonna win between those two, SS grades are natural as well, it's a Saiyan lacking creativity that's all..

SSI is what I like to call bull fucking shit, I don't believe it exists and I will never..
Any attempt to describe it becomes pointless, it is a pointless logicless pile of shit form, end of story

SSR, SSBKK & Ultimate are all fine

Haha, I like your hatred of SSRage. Yeah, I may not be describing well what I mean. I'm trying to say that SS Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage, etc. were invented. We had only heard of Great Ape, SS, SSGod. Like, there weren't tales of SS3.

All SS forms except god are basically SS only, we have heard of SS before and that covers every one of these forms including SS2 and 3 and thus, makes it natural..

If you want to say these guys discovered what they could do naturally first, then you are right, until we hear a different story changing it of course

[ChiefWamsutta]

All SS forms except god are basically SS only, we have heard of SS before and that covers every one of these forms including SS2 and 3 and thus, makes it natural..

If you want to say these guys discovered what they could do naturally first, then you are right, until we hear a different story changing it of course

I apologize for the confusion with the word 'natural.' I am having trouble precisely describing my intent.

Maybe I would describe it as Super Saiyan Grade 1 would be the standard start of the Super Saiyan chain. Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage follow this chain as extensions.

Then SSGod is another chain with the powerful SS form from Ep. 14 being an extension. The Base-looking SSGod would be the next extension.

I'm wondering if SSBlue would be the start of a new chain or continue off a previous one.

[Ki Breaker]

All SS forms except god are basically SS only, we have heard of SS before and that covers every one of these forms including SS2 and 3 and thus, makes it natural..

If you want to say these guys discovered what they could do naturally first, then you are right, until we hear a different story changing it of course

I apologize for the confusion with the word 'natural.' I am having trouble precisely describing my intent.

Maybe I would describe it as Super Saiyan Grade 1 would be the standard start of the Super Saiyan chain. Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage follow this chain as extensions.

Then SSGod is another chain with the powerful SS form from Ep. 14 being an extension. The Base-looking SSGod would be the next extension.

I'm wondering if SSBlue would be the start of a new chain or continue off a previous one.

This brings the two base theory in play again, which I don't want to subscribe to until it's stated in the show, even if logically it makes sense..

We are getting a new transformation soon, that will answer if SSB will be having continuation or not, I hope it dosen't and it's just goku finally unlocking the real god power which SSG & SSB were just tapping into..

[ChiefWamsutta]

All SS forms except god are basically SS only, we have heard of SS before and that covers every one of these forms including SS2 and 3 and thus, makes it natural..

If you want to say these guys discovered what they could do naturally first, then you are right, until we hear a different story changing it of course

I apologize for the confusion with the word 'natural.' I am having trouble precisely describing my intent.

Maybe I would describe it as Super Saiyan Grade 1 would be the standard start of the Super Saiyan chain. Grades 2 - 6, SS2 Mutation, SSRage follow this chain as extensions.

Then SSGod is another chain with the powerful SS form from Ep. 14 being an extension. The Base-looking SSGod would be the next extension.

I'm wondering if SSBlue would be the start of a new chain or continue off a previous one.

This brings the two base theory in play again, which I don't want to subscribe to until it's stated in the show, even if logically it makes sense..

We are getting a new transformation soon, that will answer if SSB will be having continuation or not, I hope it dosen't and it's just goku finally unlocking the real god power which SSG & SSB were just tapping into..

True, true, true. I think this conversation is better to have in a few weeks.

[Bullza]

With what we know now it makes it all the more odd that Vegeta would have needed to transform against Frost.

Currently Piccolo is around Buu saga SSJ2 level and stronger than he was during the Universe 6 saga. He put up a decent effort against Frost and was capable of beating him so he couldn't have been more than two or three times stronger if that.

So it definitely doesn't make sense that a God level Base Vegeta would need to transform to beat him. The difference between him and Frost would have been significantly larger than the difference between suppressed Beerus and the ordinary SSJ2 Vegeta and that ended with him just touching him with a finger.

Take the God power out of the equation and it does make sense though in the same way it does in the manga.

[ZombieVito]

With what we know now it makes it all the more odd that Vegeta would have needed to transform against Frost.

Currently Piccolo is around Buu saga SSJ2 level and stronger than he was during the Universe 6 saga. He put up a decent effort against Frost and was capable of beating him so he couldn't have been more than two or three times stronger if that.

So it definitely doesn't make sense that a God level Base Vegeta would need to transform to beat him. The difference between him and Frost would have been significantly larger than the difference between suppressed Beerus and the ordinary SSJ2 Vegeta and that ended with him just touching him with a finger.

Take the God power out of the equation and it does make sense though in the same way it does in the manga.

Piccolo should be higher than that. Unless you think the base Saiyan's normal base never improved at all since the BoG arc. Even Gohan's.

[Bullza]

Piccolo should be higher than that. Unless you think the base Saiyan's normal base never improved at all since the BoG arc. Even Gohan's.

Well it's hard to say how much power he lost and then how much he gained through training in the Universe 6 saga to know how he really compares to the Gohan of the Buu saga.

Prior to becoming Ultimate and after training with the Z Sword I'd say Gohan was stronger than Goku. So comfortably​ stronger than he was at the Cell Games. If he were around that now then Piccolo could be between SSJ2-SSJ3 level.

For now I'm still just gonna assume Piccolo is weaker than Fat Buu.