Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

in b4 there's a fight where everyone is assured Goku is in God base only for him to go SSJ1 and be stronger.

[TheMikado]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

See my post above. This really only applies to the movie, and it was already clearly working off the "god-level overall" interpretation.

The anime has befuddled things and added extra details compounded by the material that came after it.

I fail to see how this proves anything beyond "it was that way in the movie, but doesn't look to be the same in the anime adaptation". You guys need to stop saying this "proves" anything, just say that it "might support". Don't latch onto this singular datapoint so strongly without the additional context.

It proves Toriyamas intent. If you want to argue that Super isn't canon because it doesn't follow Toriyamas original design then you are more than welcome to and I'd love to agree with you.

[Lord Beerus]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

See my post above. This really only applies to the movie, and it was already clearly working off the "god-level overall" interpretation.

The anime has befuddled things and added extra details compounded by the material that came after it.

I fail to see how this proves anything beyond "it was that way in the movie, but doesn't look to be the same in the anime adaptation". You guys need to stop saying this "proves" anything, just say that it "might support". Don't latch onto this singular datapoint so strongly without the additional context.

The events of the movie happened in the show. The anime made no real major changes in the Resurrection F re-telling compared to what happened in the movie and any changes that were made still doesn't contradict the idea that Goku and Vegeta can use God ki at will in their base forms. The only thing that were added on the subject of strength was the idea that Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. But that's a non factor at this stage now.

[Bullza]

If you think about the times Goku has used this super strong Base form, against Frieza, Gotenks and possibly Hit, when he did actually transform he turned Blue.

We never saw him fight at a high level like that or when he fought Monaka-Beerus and then he'd transform and he'd be blonde. It was always blue.

You could maybe even extend that to Black aswell and that he turned Rose instead of Blonde.

Maybe that wasn't coincidental.

Do we just disregard SS God red in the manga as manga shenanigans?

I'd say it was the same idea except he does need to change forms in that version whereas he doesn't in the anime. Makes it a bit more obvious.

[emperior]

It would have been a lot better if they stated this "God powered base form" back during U6 arc. It fix almost all the issues Super has with power scaling.
Though in my eyes the two base theory is now less of a theory, because the show has showed us that Goku and Vegeta have a very strong base at times and even Goku Black (hell Goku Black's base was exactly as powerful as we expected Goku to be in his God base, and he didn't get 50x stronger when he went Rosè)

[TheMikado]

If you think about the times Goku has used this super strong Base form, against Frieza, Gotenks and possibly Hit, when he did actually transform he turned Blue.

We never saw him fight at a high level like that or when he fought Monaka-Beerus and then he'd transform and he'd be blonde. It was always blue.

You could maybe even extend that to Black aswell and that he turned Rose instead of Blonde.

Maybe that wasn't coincidental.

Do we just disregard SS God red in the manga as manga shenanigans?

I'd say it was the same idea except he does need to change forms in that version whereas he doesn't in the anime. Makes it a bit more obvious.

The Black thing doesn't make sense in the context that he has a SSJ form too so I can't imagine what Toriyamas intended if he even thought that much about it.
The visual difference in the manga was probably for the best given the confusion in the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I still don't buy into "separate godly and regular base forms".

I don't deny that the godly base exists. Far from it, I believe it's the norm. I just don't think it's a separate level of power accessed separately from Super Saiyan forms. All this tells us is that Goku and Vegeta have SSG's power as part of their regular power, without needing to transform into a SSG. This is told to us in the series proper.

What this DOESN'T tell us is whether or not this godly power is as strong as SSG. I debate the notion that this power is as strong as SSG and makes Goku and Vegeta have an alternate non-SS-based god-level of power. To me, after all the material afterwards, the narrative seems to point to SSG's power being retconned into only making Goku and Vegeta very strong in non-god forms, at the level of some form of Majin Buu when they're in an untransformed state.

This same blurb also points out that turning into a SS possessing this godly power puts them beyond the legend, beyond SSG. It never says that they're at SSG's level or above it, just that they have its power and turning into a SS with this power puts it above SSG.

This way, it conforms to the story going forward whilst also not having to come up with an arbitrary system of power levels, as well as respecting Goku and Vegeta's power growing as a whole.

===

So where does this leave SSB then, knowing that the other SS forms can still be used?

Well, according to my own interpretation above, Goku and Vegeta have SSG's power as their own, but it's never called SSG's power, it's called their own, until they transform into the SSB state. Perhaps SSB is basically a way of tapping into MORE of SSG's power via the SS form and not allowing this power to leak out, thus resulting in a blue-haired SS that has godly Ki.

[larzooma]

Given the current evidence from the recruitment episodes, the team ranking goes:

1. Goku/Vegeta - Minus Kiaoken, they're about even in power. Goku may be hiding a new form or a way to "break his limits", but we will have to wait until the tournament.

2. Ultimate Gohan - By the end of his training with Piccolo and Goku, Gohan is going to exhibit a level of power far beyond anything we've seen from him up until this point.

3. 17/Piccolo - We know 17 held back against SSJB Goku, but we really don't know how much power he kept hidden. Piccolo is in a similar situation. He easily took out SSJ2 Gohan, and although the on-screen interaction with Ultimate Gohan is brief, I believe he intentionlly let Gohan severe his arm to prove his point. Piccolo keeps his true power hidden until he's faced with a situation that calls for him to go all out. I feel he's around SSJ3 level, and to maintain a historical comparison from Z, Piccolo and 17 will be kept close in power level.

4. Fit Buu - I put him below 17/Piccolo, but he's the ultimate wildcard on the list. We have no clue how quickly a Majin can gain strength through training. Not to mention, he's never shown an interest in training prior to his recruitment episode. He's actually an ingenious fighter with the widest variety of abilities at his disposal. Ignoring his magical abilities, Buu's power level could be much higher than we think.

5. 18 - An android programed to stomp SSJ level fighters like Vegeta when first introduced. Her power level is far beyond the humans on the team, and given the gains 17 made over his years of training, she may have increased her original power to a decent level even through sporadic training over the past decade.

6. Tien/Krillin:

Tien - Although I always see people putting them on the same level, I'd give anything to see Tien gain a large power boost in the next episode. I'd say he's the bravest Z fighter, risking himself on multiple occasion against enemies with far greater power. He's a fully dedicated martial artist and warrior in the same way as Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo. In addition, Tien can't access power associated with his third eye due to the corruption of Master Shen's teachings. The extent of the power is unknown, but I believe the next episode may allow Tien to overcome the corruption by training his students in the Crane technique as a means to protect the weak and defend what's good in the world.

Krillin - Similar to Gohan, Krillin's biggest obstacle is a mental block he needed to overcome to unlock his true potential. He overcame the mental block with Goku when they went to retrieve Master Roshi's plant. Although he didn't receive Ultimate level gains, I think he tapped into a power dormant since Freeza killed him on Namek causing him to lose all confidence. I truly feel he's far below Tien even without a power boost in the next episode.

7. Roshi - In terms of mental power, he probably offers the most to the team outside of maybe Piccolo. If we consider his power level, I have a feeling people may be flicking him out of the ring left and right without some type of power gain. In another post, I through out a Hail Mary pass theory that Roshi could gain power in the next episode by maintaining the level he gains when he becomes a scroll zombie or whatever it's called. We see him going toe to toe with base Goku, which would make him a pretty strong fighter. If we reluctantly accept the idea that in a similar manner to Goku gaining the power of SSJG when his body became accustomed to the power given to him by the other Sayians, Roshi could gain the power of his Berserker state by experiencing the increase given to him by the scroll.

[Lord Beerus]

If you think about the times Goku has used this super strong Base form, against Frieza, Gotenks and possibly Hit, when he did actually transform he turned Blue.

We never saw him fight at a high level like that or when he fought Monaka-Beerus and then he'd transform and he'd be blonde. It was always blue.

You could maybe even extend that to Black aswell and that he turned Rose instead of Blonde.

Maybe that wasn't coincidental.

Do we just disregard SS God red in the manga as manga shenanigans?

I'd say it was the same idea except he does need to change forms in that version whereas he doesn't in the anime. Makes it a bit more obvious.

The Black thing doesn't make sense in the context that he has a SSJ form too so I can't imagine what Toriyamas intended if he even thought that much about it.
The visual difference in the manga was probably for the best given the confusion in the anime.

Goku Black having the SSJ form doesn't change anything. Goku can use God ki in his base form and still has access to SSJ1, SSJ2 and SSJ3.

[Marlowe89]

Given how this seems to have come out alongside the RoF movie, unless I'm mistaken, we shouldn't put too much stock into it for the anime, which made multiple small changes to the story.

You can't really pry the two apart so easily though.

That blurb about SSB (or SSGSS as it's known formally) being the result of a God-like Saiyan going Super Saiyan actually reinforces what we were told in the RoF arc in the anime, where Goku calls this form the "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" - but if SSB is a Super Saiyan "SbG", then what are the yellow forms? They can't be Super Saiyan SbGs as well because that's exactly what Super Saiyan Blue is, which presupposes the existence of two bases and provides further credence for the idea that this God-like power is something to be controlled as the scan implies. It all seems to rather strongly hint that Goku and Vegeta can freely use it and not use it while in their base states.

Then there's Episode 20 in which Whis instructs them both to meditate and focus their ki strictly within themselves, which causes them to manifest something that seems to be a kind of "God power" in base as soon as they clash fists. Vegeta appears to do the same exact meditative thing in Episodes 47 and 71 when we see him transition into some odd glowy-looking base form; then he uses that form as a sort of catalyst to go into Super Saiyan Blue, which is also consistent with what we're shown from the scan.

My main point though is that the manner in which this explanation is tied into the nature of Super Saiyan Blue makes it rather unlikely that the films and anime were ever intended to be that dramatically different. If it concerns the inherent attributes of a specific form, I don't see why they would be different.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I thought people would use common sense, but apparently not. The text didn't say anything that wasn't shown in the ROF manga. Neither Goku or Vegeta switch base forms and there isn't any material saying that, just a bunch of people with comprehension issues and confirmation bias.

Goku & Vegeta have god power in their base, but it's their only base form that is stated to exist. They have one base form and they use all of their forms from one base.

Base>SSJ>SSJ2>SSJ3>SSJG>SSB

It is stated absolutely nowhere that they can't use the original Super Saiyan from the one base form that they possess. That's headcanon.

Freeza: "Go on. Channel that Super Saiyan glow that I hate so much."
Goku: "To be honest, Freeza, I'm not so sure I need to yet."

Stated in the ROF movie itself. Freeza is talking about the original gold Super Saiyan, and Goku says that he doesn't need to use that yet. He can use all of his original Super Saiyan forms from the one base form that he is stated to have in addition to Blue. Once again, people need to stop being biased.

[LowRyder2005]

It is stated absolutely nowhere that they can't use the original Super Saiyan from the one base form that they possess. That's headcanon.

Freeza: "Go on. Channel that Super Saiyan glow that I hate so much."
Goku: "To be honest, Freeza, I'm not so sure I need to yet."

Stated in the ROF movie itself. Freeza is talking about the original gold Super Saiyan, and Goku says that he doesn't need to use that yet. He can use all of his original Super Saiyan forms from the one base form that he is stated to have in addition to Blue. Once again, people need to stop being biased.

That's an equally far-fetched conclusion when pertaining to the theoretical state of affairs at the time ROF was produced, not entirely devoid of confirmation bias itself: Freeza didn't know about Super Saiyan Blue, but Goku may have been referring to that very Super Saiyan Blue form all the same, or being slightly tongue-in-cheek about the fact that he possessed a much more powerful version of the regular Super Saiyan Freeza knew about.
Again, you're giving literal meanings precedence over context.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It is stated absolutely nowhere that they can't use the original Super Saiyan from the one base form that they possess. That's headcanon.

Freeza: "Go on. Channel that Super Saiyan glow that I hate so much."
Goku: "To be honest, Freeza, I'm not so sure I need to yet."

Stated in the ROF movie itself. Freeza is talking about the original gold Super Saiyan, and Goku says that he doesn't need to use that yet. He can use all of his original Super Saiyan forms from the one base form that he is stated to have in addition to Blue. Once again, people need to stop being biased.

That's an equally far-fetched conclusion when pertaining to the theoretical state of affairs at the time ROF was produced, not entirely devoid of confirmation bias itself: Freeza didn't know about Super Saiyan Blue, but Goku may have been referring to that very Super Saiyan Blue form all the same, or being slightly tongue-in-cheek about the fact that he possessed a much more powerful version of the regular Super Saiyan Freeza knew about.
Again, you're giving extreme literacy precedence over context.

Everyone that sees the statement is immediately going to come to the conclusion of gold Super Saiyan. It doesn't matter if Freeza didn't know about Blue because that's not what Goku's talking about. He's responding to what Freeza has in mind.

It was stated nowhere that they can't use their regular Super Saiyan forms. That's an unnecessary extrapolation.

What is the Super Saiyan glow that Freeza hates so much? Gold Super Saiyan.
Goku says that he doesn't need to go that far.

Goku stated that he does not need to go as far as to use that glow that Freeza hates. It's not far-fetched. It's stated. Freeza told Goku to use gold Super Saiyan and Goku said that he didn't need to go that far.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It is stated absolutely nowhere that they can't use the original Super Saiyan from the one base form that they possess. That's headcanon.

Freeza: "Go on. Channel that Super Saiyan glow that I hate so much."
Goku: "To be honest, Freeza, I'm not so sure I need to yet."

Stated in the ROF movie itself. Freeza is talking about the original gold Super Saiyan, and Goku says that he doesn't need to use that yet. He can use all of his original Super Saiyan forms from the one base form that he is stated to have in addition to Blue. Once again, people need to stop being biased.

That's an equally far-fetched conclusion when pertaining to the theoretical state of affairs at the time ROF was produced, not entirely devoid of confirmation bias itself: Freeza didn't know about Super Saiyan Blue, but Goku may have been referring to that very Super Saiyan Blue form all the same, or being slightly tongue-in-cheek about the fact that he possessed a much more powerful version of the regular Super Saiyan Freeza knew about.
Again, you're giving extreme literacy precedence over context.

By that same metric, though, for people first going in who didn't know about SSB at the time, seeing Goku say he didn't need to turn SS to fight Final Form Freeza would most likely lead to the assumption that he wouldn't need the regular gold-haired form.

[LowRyder2005]

It is stated absolutely nowhere that they can't use the original Super Saiyan from the one base form that they possess. That's headcanon.

Freeza: "Go on. Channel that Super Saiyan glow that I hate so much."
Goku: "To be honest, Freeza, I'm not so sure I need to yet."

Stated in the ROF movie itself. Freeza is talking about the original gold Super Saiyan, and Goku says that he doesn't need to use that yet. He can use all of his original Super Saiyan forms from the one base form that he is stated to have in addition to Blue. Once again, people need to stop being biased.

That's an equally far-fetched conclusion when pertaining to the theoretical state of affairs at the time ROF was produced, not entirely devoid of confirmation bias itself: Freeza didn't know about Super Saiyan Blue, but Goku may have been referring to that very Super Saiyan Blue form all the same, or being slightly tongue-in-cheek about the fact that he possessed a much more powerful version of the regular Super Saiyan Freeza knew about.
Again, you're giving extreme literacy precedence over context.

Everyone that sees the statement is immediately going to come to the conclusion of gold Super Saiyan. It doesn't matter if Freeza didn't know about Blue because that's not what Goku's talking about. He's responding to what Freeza has in mind.

It was stated nowhere that they can't use their regular Super Saiyan forms. That's an unnecessary extrapolation.

What is the Super Saiyan glow that Freeza hates so much? Gold Super Saiyan.
Goku says that he doesn't need to go that far.

Goku stated that he does not need to go as far as to use that glow that Freeza hates.

Saying that they undoubtedly can is also (forced) extrapolation, since in the context of the ROF movie we don't see Goku turning into a regular Super Saiyan. The rest is you making personal inferences on some exchange's intended meaning; the objection above still stands.

I would also like to point out that for taking everything literally - or conventiently literally at times - you are leaving aside the crucial implication of the evidence saying "when a godly-empowered Saiyan goes Super Saiyan he goes Blue". If the statement is truthful, it means in order that only non-godly-empowered Saiyans can go Super Saiyan. So either Goku can be godly-empowered and not godly-empowered or he can't go Super Saiyan at all.

By that same metric, though, for people first going in who didn't know about SSB at the time, seeing Goku say he didn't need to turn SS to fight Final Form Freeza would most likely lead to the assumption that he wouldn't need the regular gold-haired form.

The exchange is quite simply about Goku not needing to transform to fight Freeza. Do note that at the time ROF took place, in-universe, "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" didn't even have a proper name. "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" popped after the movie in other material along with "Super Saiyan Blue" in the context of the manga; as far as the movie is concerned, even a phrase like "turning Super Saiyan" could have meant "turning Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan".

[Marlowe89]

You could maybe even extend that to Black aswell and that he turned Rose instead of Blonde.

That does almost explain why we don't see Black using the regular Super Saiyan form in the anime. Instead of using a Godly-powered base, Goku simply transforms into Super Saiyan God itself in the manga - so it makes sense that Black would become a golden Super Saiyan when he transforms in that continuity whereas in the anime he simply becomes Super Saiyan Rose as it's already presumably the Super Saiyan progression of a Godly-powered base. To achieve Rose in the manga, Black just powers up his Super Saiyan state to go beyond God as Zamasu implies.

It doesn't neatly solve everything since Black also had a super strong base in the manga, but it's very interesting to think about nonetheless.

That's an equally far-fetched conclusion when pertaining to the theoretical state of affairs at the time ROF was produced, not entirely devoid of confirmation bias itself: Freeza didn't know about Super Saiyan Blue, but Goku may have been referring to that very Super Saiyan Blue form all the same, or being slightly tongue-in-cheek about the fact that he possessed a much more powerful version of the regular Super Saiyan Freeza knew about.

This. It was never actually confirmed that Goku's response was only concerned with one specific variant of Super Saiyan, that's just something inferred by the person you replied to. Super Saiyan Blue is the Super Saiyan form of Goku's newly-acheived base in RoF and he said as much himself.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Saying that they undoubtedly can is also (forced) extrapolation, since in the context of the ROF movie we don't see Goku turning regular Super Saiyan. The rest is you making personal inferences on some exchange intended meaning; the objection above still stands.

I would also like to point out that for taking everything literally - or conventiently literally at times - you are leaving aside the crucial implication of the evidence saying "when a godly-empowered Saiyan goes Super Saiyan he goes Blue". If the statement is truthful, it means in order that only non-godly-empowered Saiyans can go Super Saiyan. So either Goku can be godly-empowered and not godly-empowered or he can't go Super Saiyan.

Concluding that they could use gold Super Saiyan isn't an extrapolation since Goku said that he could use it. The fact that he didn't use it in the movie doesn't matter.

Freeza: Use gold Super Saiyan.
Goku: Nope, don't need to yet.

There is no inferences being made on my end. He's not talking about anything else since Blue isn't the glow that Freeza hates.

The blurb doesn't state that Goku can't use gold Super Saiyan. It states what we already know, which is that Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan, but Goku already said that going gold was a higher level than his base form, so these ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

We're never gonna agree on these things, are we?

We think about these on fundamentally different levels.

I believe that they have a singular base form with the power of SSG, but that that power has been retconned downward to not be at god-level itself, and SSB is just specifically tapping into that power to become stronger than SSG using the SS form and not letting the power leak out. When they don't consciously attempt to tap into that power, their Ki is multiplied normally and they turn into regular Super Saiyans.

You guys believe that they can turn their godly power on and off like a light-switch, and doing so in base form then turning Super Saiyan results in SSB. Any opponent that would be stronger than their supposed "regular" base is fought using this "supposed" second base form that's consciously tapped into separately.

[LowRyder2005]

Concluding that they could use gold Super Saiyan isn't an extrapolation since Goku said that he could use it. The fact that he didn't use it in the movie doesn't matter.

Freeza: Use gold Super Saiyan.
Goku: Nope, don't need to yet.

There is no inferences being made on my end.

The blurb doesn't state that Goku can't use gold Super Saiyan. It states what we already know, which is that Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan, but Goku already said that going gold was a higher level than his base form, so these ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

It is an extrapolation by all means and accounts, since you can't automatically assume that in the context of the ROF movie "going Super Saiyan" meant "going gold or going Blue". That's what you are trying to prove, and so far there's hardly compelling evidence.
Freeza said that Goku needed to turn Super Saiyan and we can realistically state he referred to the original golden form. Goku says that he doesn't need to. Obviously, it could have meant "I don't need to because if I try to go Super Saiyan I'd go Super Saiyan Blue and utterly annihilate you". Coincidentially, the same thing the blurb above implied ("when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God goes Super Saiyan, here's what happens").

Alas, if Freeza had actually said "use your golden Super Saiyan form" (which he'd never say, since it would presume he knew about multiple types of Super Saiyan forms) and Goku said "I don't need to use my golden Super Saiyan form" you'd obviously have a stronger argument, but you'd also be removing the ambiguous phrasing in the first place - which is more or less what Goku meant with "to go Super Saiyan" in reference to Freeza's provocation.
And there's still the fact that the excerpt at face value is much stronger evidence in favor of what you're arguing against.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It is an extrapolation by all means and accounts, since you can't automatically assume that in the context of the ROF movie "going Super Saiyan" meant "going gold or going Blue". That's what you are trying to prove, and there's quite simply not enough conclusive evidence.
Freeza said that Goku needed to turn Super Saiyan and we know he referred to the original golden form. Goku says that he doesn't need that to. Obviously, it could have meant "I don't need to because if I try to go Super Saiyan I'd go Super Saiyan Blue and utterly annihilate you".

Alas, if Freeza had actually said "use your gold Super Saiyan form" (which he'd never say, since it would presume he knew about multiple types of Super Saiyan forms) and Goku said "I don't need to use my gold Super Saiyan form" you'd obviously have a stronger argument, but you'd also be removing the ambiguous phrasing in the first place - which is "go Super Saiyan".
Furthermore, the blurb in question states that if a Saiyan with a godly-empowered form turns Super Saiyan they go "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" and it's, technically speaking, much stronger evidence in favor of what you're arguing against.

No, Freeza specifically said to use the Super Saiyan glow that he hates. That is gold and Goku said that he didn't need to go that far, hence there are no inferences on my side. You're arguing that Freeza and Goku's conversation doesn't mean what it means, which makes no sense.

>Glow that Freeza hates=Gold.
>Goku said that he doesn't need to go that far.

The blurb doesn't specifically state that gold Super Saiyan is impossible to use, so it doesn't mean anything. It's just reiterating what was already said in the movie and despite that, Goku still stated that he could go gold.
We already have feats of Goku using gold Super Saiyan against Beerus despite possessing Super Saiyan God's power, so I don't know where he idea comes from that it's lost forever. If he could use it against Beerus, then he can still use it now.