Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Triggered Vegeta]

Looks like Frieza really is back!
Hope we get to see Frost vs Frieza(Non Golden) to prove whether or not the 2 base theory is true.

[Simere]

Someone's saying Good Boo > Base Goku just because he ringed him out?

[TheSaiyanGod]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is this real, Toei Animation?
Are you going to make Gohan hold his own against Goku? With a few hours remaining for the tournament?
Someone tell me the logic of this?

Neither did Freeza become that strong in such a short time.

[ZombieVito]

Guess I should have specified. I was talking about him saying Tenshinhan > Kuririn.

Oh that,I think krillin is still above Tien, because it looks like he's relative to #18 in episode 88 but I want to fully judge Tien and piccolo in episode 90, because This week it looks Tien got caught off guard or buff roshi and Tien are relative to each other in term of power, either way let's wait and see how Tien perform against piccolo and Gohan

But shouldn't have Krillin lost a lot of power after Cell?
Don't get me wrong, I love Krillin but to have him stronger than Tien doesn't make sense
He's only recently gotten his fighting sense back again.

Even the old Toei movies had Tien take on Trunks, forcing him to go SSJ.
He also held back Semi-Perfect Cell. All that whilst Tien continued to train after Cell, honing his skills.

Not really. Piccolo Daimao in 300 years went from 260 to 220-200.

I doubt Kuririn regressed a lot or at all.

[BWri]

As I have pointed out, the weight cloths do not give Piccolo a big boost. On average, it is only 20%.

That's not quite true seeing as how Piccolo can adjust how much his weights weigh, thusly affecting the limiter. An interesting theory is that he suppressed his power more than normal to fight Frieza's mooks, including increasing the heaviness of his weights.

[HeroR]

As I have pointed out, the weight cloths do not give Piccolo a big boost. On average, it is only 20%.

That's not quite true seeing as how Piccolo can adjust how much his weights weigh, thusly affecting the limiter. An interesting theory is that he suppressed his power more than normal to fight Frieza's mooks, including increasing the heaviness of his weights.

Problem. We don't know how much weight Piccolo has and we don't know how it effect his percentage. So, trying to guess if Piccolo gets a 50% boost off his weighted cloths now is speculative. It can't be neither proven or disproven. And that still doesn't explain why he would suppressed himself against Tagoma after seeing him put a hole through Gohan and then when he attacked him.

[ZombieVito]

As I have pointed out, the weight cloths do not give Piccolo a big boost. On average, it is only 20%.

That's not quite true seeing as how Piccolo can adjust how much his weights weigh, thusly affecting the limiter. An interesting theory is that he suppressed his power more than normal to fight Frieza's mooks, including increasing the heaviness of his weights.

Problem. We don't know how much weight Piccolo has and we don't know how it effect his percentage. So, trying to guess if Piccolo gets a 50% boost off his weighted cloths now is speculative. It can't be neither proven or disproven. And that still doesn't explain why he would suppressed himself against Tagoma after seeing him put a hole through Gohan and then when he attacked him.

So what is your explanation for episode 89 confirming Gohan is at the same strength as the Boo arc? Like it or not that destroys base Gohan > Piccolo in the RoF arc.

[BWri]

The problem is Roshis last official power level was 139. He's been one of the strongest martial artists for decades at that point and was pretty much retired. He hasn't had any special training or masters since nor RoSaT or anything. But some how his secret training as a retired old man who Krillin and 18 live with went unnoticed. And he's got to be in the 100,000s if not millions against Tien from a lowly 139 power level which was the best he could achieve in his entire lifetime as a martial artist.

Sigh

I kinda want to sig this. Gotta love how they casually break the lore nowadays for expediency.

Problem. We don't know how much weight Piccolo has and we don't know how it effect his percentage. So, trying to guess if Piccolo gets a 50% boost off his weighted cloths now is speculative. It can't be neither proven or disproven. And that still doesn't explain why he would suppressed himself against Tagoma after seeing him put a hole through Gohan and then when he attacked him.

Yeah, I can't really refute any of that, but it's impossible to now how much the weights increase him nowadays without a clear statement in the show.

I just can't separate the production of the show from the results that we were shown in Super. I just see messy writing, from people who were unclear on exactly how strong these characters are. Seems there's enough evidence to show that Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, in base and in SSJ. In the movie it was super clear, with Gohan taking Piccolo's place in the fight with Sashimi. Piccolo says he can take him, but Gohan says something to the degree of "yeah, but let's not take that chance." In RoF movie, Gohan is undoubtedly stronger than Piccolo. In the anime its messier, but there's enough there to show Gohan > Piccolo. How he was treated by the villains, how he pushed Tagoma back twice, while Piccolo got no-sold and stood by like a bystander after getting bodied. Everyone could argue about this forever and they'd all be right and simultaneously wrong due to all the conflicting information.

[Cursemark505]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is this real, Toei Animation?
Are you going to make Gohan hold his own against Goku? With a few hours remaining for the tournament?
Someone tell me the logic of this?

Neither did Freeza become that strong in such a short time.

Gohan =/= Freeza.
It's been stated multiple times that Gohan's potential is above everyone else and was even made a plot point on numerous occasions.
Did old Kai not remove the shackles from Gohan, allowing him to utilize his full potential?
I don't understand how it's passable for Gohan to receive absurd power boosts by getting emotional but him training as hard as he can with his shackles removed is not.

[HeroR]

So what is your explanation for episode 89 confirming Gohan is at the same strength as the Boo arc? Like it or not that destroys base Gohan > Piccolo in the RoF arc.

Episode 89 never said he was back to his Buu Saga's strength. It only said he got his old power back, meaning he can turn Ultimate. Why would Gohan with eight months of training with Piccolo and then on and off training over a period of time only be exactly as strong as he was during the Buu Saga? Especially since we saw Gohan fight someone who is at least as strong as Basil in his base form while poisoned.

The problem is Roshis last official power level was 139. He's been one of the strongest martial artists for decades at that point and was pretty much retired. He hasn't had any special training or masters since nor RoSaT or anything. But some how his secret training as a retired old man who Krillin and 18 live with went unnoticed. And he's got to be in the 100,000s if not millions against Tien from a lowly 139 power level which was the best he could achieve in his entire lifetime as a martial artist.

Sigh

I kinda want to sig this. Gotta love how they casually break the lore nowadays for expediency.

I just can't separate the production of the show from the results that we were shown in Super. I just see messy writing, from people who were unclear on exactly how strong these characters are. Seems there's enough evidence to show that Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, in base and in SSJ. In the movie it was super clear, with Gohan taking Piccolo's place in the fight with Sashimi. Piccolo says he can take him, but Gohan says something to the degree of "yeah, but let's not take that chance." In RoF movie, Gohan is undoubtedly stronger than Piccolo. In the anime its messier, but there's enough there to show Gohan > Piccolo. How he was treated by the villains, how he pushed Tagoma back twice, while Piccolo got no-sold and stood by like a bystander after getting bodied. Everyone could argue about this forever and they'd all be right and simultaneously wrong due to all the conflicting information.

The writer in Super has never been mess, despite what fans believe. Only the animation, the actual writing actually clears up stuff that were left vague in the movies.

In the Japanese version, Gohan only says he will handle it not 'yeah, but let's not take that chance'. Gohan is undoubtedly stronger in Super too since he two-shotted Ginyu who kicked everyone's ass. He also got bear hugged by Sashimi and didn't even flinched and nothing has been suggested that Sashimi is nerf compared to his movie counterpart, especially since everyone else was made stronger.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That's not quite true seeing as how Piccolo can adjust how much his weights weigh, thusly affecting the limiter. An interesting theory is that he suppressed his power more than normal to fight Frieza's mooks, including increasing the heaviness of his weights.

Problem. We don't know how much weight Piccolo has and we don't know how it effect his percentage. So, trying to guess if Piccolo gets a 50% boost off his weighted cloths now is speculative. It can't be neither proven or disproven. And that still doesn't explain why he would suppressed himself against Tagoma after seeing him put a hole through Gohan and then when he attacked him.

So what is your explanation for episode 89 confirming Gohan is at the same strength as the Boo arc? Like it or not that destroys base Gohan > Piccolo in the RoF arc.

Pure powerscaling wise, it actually doesn't.

Even if Gohan were over twice as strong as Piccolo in base form, that would put him at around half of Buu Saga SS Goku's power, of which Piccolo's is only a fourth. Multiply 50 times over, you get power that'd equal SS2 Gotenks, at least 6 times weaker than Ultimate Gohan. And that's the high-ball estimate.

One could easily make the assumption that, without weighted clothing, Piccolo would equal Gohan, and both would be at 1/4th of Buu Saga SS Goku's power, and would place SS Gohan's at SS Gotenks's level. Even if he got 4 times stronger since then, he'd still only be equal to SS3 Gotenks or Super Buu as a SS2, easily still weaker than his Ultimate form by a good 50%.

[BWri]

The writer in Super has never been mess, despite what fans believe. Only the animation, the actual writing actually clears up stuff that were left vague in the movies.

The anime is so unclear that the levels of the fighters can be interpreted in just about every which way. Just look at Gohan, he can be as weak as his Cell Saga counterpart (maybe even weaker) in light of evidence introduced in ep. 89 or he can be as strong as his Ultimate form which is how it seemed to be played at the time.

In the Japanese version, Gohan only says he will handle it not 'yeah, but let's not take that chance'. Gohan is undoubtedly stronger in Super too since he two-shotted Ginyu who kicked everyone's ass. He also got bear hugged by Sashimi and didn't even flinched and nothing has been suggested that Sashimi is nerf compared to his movie counterpart, especially since everyone else was made stronger.

I'm with you on everything except for Sashimi. Unlike with Tagoma, no one noted his power and he wasn't stated to have trained with Frieza. I think they just traded places in the storyline this time, and Sashimi stayed at his hyped up Zarbon/Dodoria level but most I could give him is doubling his power to Ginyu Force levels. Funny, how he's so irrelevant now that we're both calling him the wrong name, the actual food he was based on

I just rewatched ep 21. Scale wise, Gohan isn't sure if he can go SSJ. He thinks he's weaker than Frieza, even though both are in base/suppressed. Shisami thinks he's the strongest in the army, Sorbet thinks so too. Tagoma looks at him like "wtf are you smoking" when he hears that statement. Krillin calls Shisami a "tough guy" or "tough looking guy". Gohan volunteers to fight Shisami and Weighted Piccolo asks if he needs some help. Gohan declines saying he's grown up. Shisami does punch through Gohan's generic rapid ki blasts, but Frieza had stated just minutes before that Gohan was fighting like a pacifist and just trying to knock his enemies out. The ki blasts weren't very strong in all likelihood. Shisami has his aura extended and tries to crush Gohan but a casual Gohan is completely no-selling while Shisami is straining, trying his hardest to crush him. No indication that he powered up whatsoever. Tagoma shoots through both of them and nails Gohan who's obviously powered down/suppressed at the time. Tagoma's reasoning was to "take out the strongest fighter" aka Gohan (though he and Piccolo were definitely suppressed). Sorbet says that Tagoma is above the Ginyu Force. Tagoma powers up and Goten and Trunks feel his "strong energy" from CC, the first reaction that they have to the battle so far. So that means the the power outputted by any of the humans, Gohan, Piccolo, the foot soldiers or Shisami was high enough to catch their radar but Tagoma's sure was. Again, suppressed Z fighters. Also vs. foot soldiers Krillin struggles (PTSD), everyone else but Roshi completely stomps, Roshi uses some effort but has no problem with the soldiers.

Ep. 22. Gohan says Tagoma is "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Tagoma thinks he can take all the Z-fighters at once, though again they're suppressed. Piccolo volunteers and Tagoma says he'll finish him in 3 minutes though Piccolo is strangely confident and still in weights. This is the same Tagoma who powered up and who's energy the boys called strong, who Gohan just said seconds before was "as probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Piccolo sensed that, heard that, and still smugly challenged him WITH FREAKING WEIGHTS ON, WTF SUPER! Weighted Piccolo powers up and the others are surprised, mouths very open. Weighted Piccolo charges Tagoma and his punch to the face shows no effect whatsoever much to Piccolo's surprise. Tagoma just casually rips off his arm and combos him doing heavy damage in the process. Base Gohan saves him with a surprise attack, blasting Tagoma away. Piccolo needs a sensu. Clearly the combo must've done all the damage since Piccolo regrows arms like every day, rather casually too. Tagoma shows no sign of being affected by Gohan's blast. Krillin says the obvious, Tagoma is unaffected. Tagoma explains how training with Frieza gave him an "body of steel". Super Gotenks comes and headbutts Tagoma in the nads and diffuses. Tagoma understandably shows pain for the first time in this fight. Ginyu takes over Tagoma. Ginyu says he's not used to Tagoma's body but challenges the Z-fighters anyway. Ginyu-goma powers up, Z-fighters have worried reactions. Ginyu-goma races past everyone and takes out Tien before anyone can react, then steamrolls everyone else in an instant. Piccolo says Ginyu-goma is stronger than before (even stronger than Gohan at his best if we remember Gohan's earlier quote). Jaco says he's utilizing "all of that Tagoma fellows strength", but I'm not sure how he even knows this. Piccolo remarks about Ginyu-goma's "body of steel" as well as his speed and strength, saying that he won't be taken down easily. That makes me think there's something special about the "body of steel" ability. Gohan confidently states that he can take Ginyu-goma and curiously only tells Roshi and Tien to take senzu (kinda implying that they're the weakest) which I missed before. Whis thinks it might've been too early to chuck Goku and Vegeta into his staff but Beerus mentions that they're the type who get stronger the more they get pushed. He wants them to get stronger faster or else they "won't be worth playing with". Goku and Vegeta can't even move in surrounded by such pressure inside Whis' staff but Vegeta figures it out first "if you increase your energy and control it, you can move". And that ... is the start of SSB, weird. You can already tell it's a haphazard concept from that explanation. I'm confused though, it seems like they are in the RoSaT because they reference the building with the food and how they have to find it, but maybe its a joke. Ginyu-goma is disappointed by base Gohan, who says he has a low power level. Gohan says "I can't utilize my full potential. It's because I haven't been training." Ginyu-goma gets the better of base Gohan. Gohan is covered in scratches after the attack. Gohan seems to have reservations about going Super Saiyan or trying it anyway. He seems to transform with no problem though (prob due to limited animation). Ginyu-goma says Gohan should've started with that power and thinks he's been played for a fool. Gohan's not sure if his body can take it (not even joking). Ginyu-goma's generic blast is effortlessly swatted away and SSJ Gohan folds him with a single kick and drops him with an elbow. Gohan turns his back on Ginyu-goma and says that fight is over and that there's no pointed in continuing. Base/Max suppressed Frieza is pissed and intervenes, hitting Gohan with Death Beams. Casually from his chair, base Frieza declares that he will finish off SSJ Gohan. Piccolo and Krillin step forward but Ginyu-goma rushes over in front of them to bar their way. Base Frieza tortures SSJ Gohan into submission from his chair. Weighted Piccolo bypasses Ginyu-goma in time to rescue Gohan from Frieza's last beam which could imply that Weighted Piccolo is indeed comparable to Ginyu-goma in some fashion unless he was distracted, which wasn't shown at all. Think about that, Weighted Piccolo was faster than Frieza's death beam, if he could see the attack coming and get there in time to place his body between it and Gohan.

So at the end of it all, the power scaling looks like:
Base Frieza >>>>>>>>> SSJ Gohan > Weighted Piccolo's Confidence > Ginyu-goma > Tagoma = Ultimate Gohan > Weighted Piccolo's speed feat > Base Gohan > Weighted Piccolo > Krillin > Tien > Roshi

That said, I can see how people could interpret Piccolo or Gohan to be stronger than the other here. I can also see the confusion with Ultimate Gohan. SSJ Gohan clearly surpassed that level by his own implication. The only thing that saves it from 100% being the case is that it was left vague with a "probably" thrown in. But a statement's, a statement and Gohan (the voice of Toei in this scene) is the one who has confused the fandom on this issue.

Crunchyroll subs btw.

[HeroR]

The writer in Super has never been mess, despite what fans believe. Only the animation, the actual writing actually clears up stuff that were left vague in the movies.

The anime is so unclear that the levels of the fighters can be interpreted in just about every which way. Just look at Gohan, he can be as weak as his Cell Saga counterpart (maybe even weaker) in light of evidence introduced in ep. 89 or he can be as strong as his Ultimate form which is how it seemed to be played at the time.

In the Japanese version, Gohan only says he will handle it not 'yeah, but let's not take that chance'. Gohan is undoubtedly stronger in Super too since he two-shotted Ginyu who kicked everyone's ass. He also got bear hugged by Sashimi and didn't even flinched and nothing has been suggested that Sashimi is nerf compared to his movie counterpart, especially since everyone else was made stronger.

I'm with you on everything except for Sashimi. Unlike with Tagoma, no one noted his power and he wasn't stated to have trained with Frieza. I think they just traded places in the storyline this time, and Sashimi stayed at his hyped up Zarbon/Dodoria level but most I could give him is doubling his power to Ginyu Force levels. Funny, how he's so irrelevant now that we're both calling him the wrong name, the actual food he was based on

I just rewatched ep 21. Scale wise, Gohan isn't sure if he can go SSJ. He thinks he's weaker than Frieza, even though both are in base/suppressed. Shisami thinks he's the strongest in the army, Sorbet thinks so too. Tagoma looks at him like "wtf are you smoking" when he hears that statement. Krillin calls Shisami a "tough guy" or "tough looking guy". Gohan volunteers to fight Shisami and Weighted Piccolo asks if he needs some help. Gohan declines saying he's grown up. Shisami does punch through Gohan's generic rapid ki blasts, but Frieza had stated just minutes before that Gohan was fighting like a pacifist and just trying to knock his enemies out. The ki blasts weren't very strong in all likelihood. Shisami has his aura extended and tries to crush Gohan but a casual Gohan is completely no-selling while Shisami is straining, trying his hardest to crush him. No indication that he powered up whatsoever. Tagoma shoots through both of them and nails Gohan who's obviously powered down/suppressed at the time. Tagoma's reasoning was to "take out the strongest fighter" aka Gohan (though he and Piccolo were definitely suppressed). Sorbet says that Tagoma is above the Ginyu Force. Tagoma powers up and Goten and Trunks feel his "strong energy" from CC, the first reaction that they have to the battle so far. So that means the the power outputted by any of the humans, Gohan, Piccolo, the foot soldiers or Shisami was high enough to catch their radar but Tagoma's sure was. Again, suppressed Z fighters. Also vs. foot soldiers Krillin struggles (PTSD), everyone else but Roshi completely stomps, Roshi uses some effort but has no problem with the soldiers.

Ep. 22. Gohan says Tagoma is "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Tagoma thinks he can take all the Z-fighters at once, though again they're suppressed. Piccolo volunteers and Tagoma says he'll finish him in 3 minutes though Piccolo is strangely confident and still in weights. This is the same Tagoma who powered up and who's energy the boys called strong, who Gohan just said seconds before was "as probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Piccolo sensed that, heard that, and still smugly challenged him WITH FREAKING WEIGHTS ON, WTF SUPER! Weighted Piccolo powers up and the others are surprised, mouths very open. Weighted Piccolo charges Tagoma and his punch to the face shows no effect whatsoever much to Piccolo's surprise. Tagoma just casually rips off his arm and combos him doing heavy damage in the process. Base Gohan saves him with a surprise attack, blasting Tagoma away. Piccolo needs a sensu. Clearly the combo must've done all the damage since Piccolo regrows arms like every day, rather casually too. Tagoma shows no sign of being affected by Gohan's blast. Krillin says the obvious, Tagoma is unaffected. Tagoma explains how training with Frieza gave him an "body of steel". Super Gotenks comes and headbutts Tagoma in the nads and diffuses. Tagoma understandably shows pain for the first time in this fight. Ginyu takes over Tagoma. Ginyu says he's not used to Tagoma's body but challenges the Z-fighters anyway. Ginyu-goma powers up, Z-fighters have worried reactions. Ginyu-goma races past everyone and takes out Tien before anyone can react, then steamrolls everyone else in an instant. Piccolo says Ginyu-goma is stronger than before (even stronger than Gohan at his best if we remember Gohan's earlier quote). Jaco says he's utilizing "all of that Tagoma fellows strength", but I'm not sure how he even knows this. Piccolo remarks about Ginyu-goma's "body of steel" as well as his speed and strength, saying that he won't be taken down easily. That makes me think there's something special about the "body of steel" ability. Gohan confidently states that he can take Ginyu-goma and curiously only tells Roshi and Tien to take senzu (kinda implying that they're the weakest) which I missed before. Whis thinks it might've been too early to chuck Goku and Vegeta into his staff but Beerus mentions that they're the type who get stronger the more they get pushed. He wants them to get stronger faster or else they "won't be worth playing with". Goku and Vegeta can't even move in surrounded by such pressure inside Whis' staff but Vegeta figures it out first "if you increase your energy and control it, you can move". And that ... is the start of SSB, weird. You can already tell it's a haphazard concept from that explanation. I'm confused though, it seems like they are in the RoSaT because they reference the building with the food and how they have to find it, but maybe its a joke. Ginyu-goma is disappointed by base Gohan, who says he has a low power level. Gohan says "I can't utilize my full potential. It's because I haven't been training." Ginyu-goma gets the better of base Gohan. Gohan is covered in scratches after the attack. Gohan seems to have reservations about going Super Saiyan or trying it anyway. He seems to transform with no problem though (prob due to limited animation). Ginyu-goma says Gohan should've started with that power and thinks he's been played for a fool. Gohan's not sure if his body can take it (not even joking). Ginyu-goma's generic blast is effortlessly swatted away and SSJ Gohan folds him with a single kick and drops him with an elbow. Gohan turns his back on Ginyu-goma and says that fight is over and that there's no pointed in continuing. Base/Max suppressed Frieza is pissed and intervenes, hitting Gohan with Death Beams. Casually from his chair, base Frieza declares that he will finish off SSJ Gohan. Piccolo and Krillin step forward but Ginyu-goma rushes over in front of them to bar their way. Base Frieza tortures SSJ Gohan into submission from his chair. Weighted Piccolo bypasses Ginyu-goma in time to rescue Gohan from Frieza's last beam which could imply that Weighted Piccolo is indeed comparable to Ginyu-goma in some fashion unless he was distracted, which wasn't shown at all. Think about that, Weighted Piccolo was faster than Frieza's death beam, if he could see the attack coming and get there in time to place his body between it and Gohan.

So at the end of it all, the power scaling looks like:
Base Frieza >>>>>>>>> SSJ Gohan > Weighted Piccolo's Confidence > Ginyu-goma > Tagoma > Ultimate Gohan > Weighted Piccolo's speed feat < Base Gohan < Weighted Piccolo > Krillin > Tien > Roshi

That said, I can see how people could interpret Piccolo or Gohan to be stronger than the other here. I can also see the confusion with Ultimate Gohan. SSJ Gohan clearly surpassed that level by his own implication. The only thing that saves it from 100% being the case is that it was left vague with a "probably" thrown in. But a statement's, a statement and Gohan (the voice of Toei in this scene) is the one who has confused the fandom on this issue.

Crunchyroll subs btw.

It really hasn't. We know that Gohan wasn't as weak as his Cell Saga counterpart because if he was, he wouldn't be pushing back Tagoma who ripped off Piccolo's arm. We also saw base form Gohan fight Piccolo in Episode 30. Nothing in Super ever showed Gohan as weak as you imply. And Gohan in his base form fought a person who was about as strong or stronger than Basil. The same Basil who got hits in on Buu even after he took the fight more seriously. And he was poison. The only thing Episode 89 implied is that he got his old transformation back, which would be way stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart since Gohan's base form back in the Buu Saga was weaker than Namek Saga Freeza.

Why wouldn't Sashimi train? He knew he was going against two legendary Super Saiyans since he thought Trunks was on Earth and he knew those Super Saiyans killed his boss, the former strongest in the universe, and Majin Buu. It is crazy to think that Sashimi, one of the elites, sat on his butt for four months and didn't train. Especially when movie Sashimi was on par with Piccolo. In Super, Freeza and Tagoma got major power boosts, so why would Sashimi be the odd man out and nerf? And, seriously, Sorbet never said that Sashimi was Zarbon/Dodoria's level. It's rank, not power, as Herms started when the movie came out.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Didn't Herms look over Gohan's dialogue in that arc, and come to the conclusion that Gohan was referring to his best at that very moment a.k.a. healthy and well-trained base form?

[HeroR]

Didn't Herms look over Gohan's dialogue in that arc, and come to the conclusion that Gohan was referring to his best at that very moment a.k.a. healthy and well-trained base form?

That is how Herms' read it, but the line itself it pretty vague. Especially since Gohan wasn't tried and his current best got floored by Tagoma. Unless he was thinking about Super Saiyan, which Gohan two-shotted and Tagoma got stronger.

[BWri]

The writer in Super has never been mess, despite what fans believe. Only the animation, the actual writing actually clears up stuff that were left vague in the movies.

The anime is so unclear that the levels of the fighters can be interpreted in just about every which way. Just look at Gohan, he can be as weak as his Cell Saga counterpart (maybe even weaker) in light of evidence introduced in ep. 89 or he can be as strong as his Ultimate form which is how it seemed to be played at the time.

In the Japanese version, Gohan only says he will handle it not 'yeah, but let's not take that chance'. Gohan is undoubtedly stronger in Super too since he two-shotted Ginyu who kicked everyone's ass. He also got bear hugged by Sashimi and didn't even flinched and nothing has been suggested that Sashimi is nerf compared to his movie counterpart, especially since everyone else was made stronger.

I'm with you on everything except for Sashimi. Unlike with Tagoma, no one noted his power and he wasn't stated to have trained with Frieza. I think they just traded places in the storyline this time, and Sashimi stayed at his hyped up Zarbon/Dodoria level but most I could give him is doubling his power to Ginyu Force levels. Funny, how he's so irrelevant now that we're both calling him the wrong name, the actual food he was based on

I just rewatched ep 21. Scale wise, Gohan isn't sure if he can go SSJ. He thinks he's weaker than Frieza, even though both are in base/suppressed. Shisami thinks he's the strongest in the army, Sorbet thinks so too. Tagoma looks at him like "wtf are you smoking" when he hears that statement. Krillin calls Shisami a "tough guy" or "tough looking guy". Gohan volunteers to fight Shisami and Weighted Piccolo asks if he needs some help. Gohan declines saying he's grown up. Shisami does punch through Gohan's generic rapid ki blasts, but Frieza had stated just minutes before that Gohan was fighting like a pacifist and just trying to knock his enemies out. The ki blasts weren't very strong in all likelihood. Shisami has his aura extended and tries to crush Gohan but a casual Gohan is completely no-selling while Shisami is straining, trying his hardest to crush him. No indication that he powered up whatsoever. Tagoma shoots through both of them and nails Gohan who's obviously powered down/suppressed at the time. Tagoma's reasoning was to "take out the strongest fighter" aka Gohan (though he and Piccolo were definitely suppressed). Sorbet says that Tagoma is above the Ginyu Force. Tagoma powers up and Goten and Trunks feel his "strong energy" from CC, the first reaction that they have to the battle so far. So that means the the power outputted by any of the humans, Gohan, Piccolo, the foot soldiers or Shisami was high enough to catch their radar but Tagoma's sure was. Again, suppressed Z fighters. Also vs. foot soldiers Krillin struggles (PTSD), everyone else but Roshi completely stomps, Roshi uses some effort but has no problem with the soldiers.

Ep. 22. Gohan says Tagoma is "probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Tagoma thinks he can take all the Z-fighters at once, though again they're suppressed. Piccolo volunteers and Tagoma says he'll finish him in 3 minutes though Piccolo is strangely confident and still in weights. This is the same Tagoma who powered up and who's energy the boys called strong, who Gohan just said seconds before was "as probably as strong as me when I was at my best". Piccolo sensed that, heard that, and still smugly challenged him WITH FREAKING WEIGHTS ON, WTF SUPER! Weighted Piccolo powers up and the others are surprised, mouths very open. Weighted Piccolo charges Tagoma and his punch to the face shows no effect whatsoever much to Piccolo's surprise. Tagoma just casually rips off his arm and combos him doing heavy damage in the process. Base Gohan saves him with a surprise attack, blasting Tagoma away. Piccolo needs a sensu. Clearly the combo must've done all the damage since Piccolo regrows arms like every day, rather casually too. Tagoma shows no sign of being affected by Gohan's blast. Krillin says the obvious, Tagoma is unaffected. Tagoma explains how training with Frieza gave him an "body of steel". Super Gotenks comes and headbutts Tagoma in the nads and diffuses. Tagoma understandably shows pain for the first time in this fight. Ginyu takes over Tagoma. Ginyu says he's not used to Tagoma's body but challenges the Z-fighters anyway. Ginyu-goma powers up, Z-fighters have worried reactions. Ginyu-goma races past everyone and takes out Tien before anyone can react, then steamrolls everyone else in an instant. Piccolo says Ginyu-goma is stronger than before (even stronger than Gohan at his best if we remember Gohan's earlier quote). Jaco says he's utilizing "all of that Tagoma fellows strength", but I'm not sure how he even knows this. Piccolo remarks about Ginyu-goma's "body of steel" as well as his speed and strength, saying that he won't be taken down easily. That makes me think there's something special about the "body of steel" ability. Gohan confidently states that he can take Ginyu-goma and curiously only tells Roshi and Tien to take senzu (kinda implying that they're the weakest) which I missed before. Whis thinks it might've been too early to chuck Goku and Vegeta into his staff but Beerus mentions that they're the type who get stronger the more they get pushed. He wants them to get stronger faster or else they "won't be worth playing with". Goku and Vegeta can't even move in surrounded by such pressure inside Whis' staff but Vegeta figures it out first "if you increase your energy and control it, you can move". And that ... is the start of SSB, weird. You can already tell it's a haphazard concept from that explanation. I'm confused though, it seems like they are in the RoSaT because they reference the building with the food and how they have to find it, but maybe its a joke. Ginyu-goma is disappointed by base Gohan, who says he has a low power level. Gohan says "I can't utilize my full potential. It's because I haven't been training." Ginyu-goma gets the better of base Gohan. Gohan is covered in scratches after the attack. Gohan seems to have reservations about going Super Saiyan or trying it anyway. He seems to transform with no problem though (prob due to limited animation). Ginyu-goma says Gohan should've started with that power and thinks he's been played for a fool. Gohan's not sure if his body can take it (not even joking). Ginyu-goma's generic blast is effortlessly swatted away and SSJ Gohan folds him with a single kick and drops him with an elbow. Gohan turns his back on Ginyu-goma and says that fight is over and that there's no pointed in continuing. Base/Max suppressed Frieza is pissed and intervenes, hitting Gohan with Death Beams. Casually from his chair, base Frieza declares that he will finish off SSJ Gohan. Piccolo and Krillin step forward but Ginyu-goma rushes over in front of them to bar their way. Base Frieza tortures SSJ Gohan into submission from his chair. Weighted Piccolo bypasses Ginyu-goma in time to rescue Gohan from Frieza's last beam which could imply that Weighted Piccolo is indeed comparable to Ginyu-goma in some fashion unless he was distracted, which wasn't shown at all. Think about that, Weighted Piccolo was faster than Frieza's death beam, if he could see the attack coming and get there in time to place his body between it and Gohan.

So at the end of it all, the power scaling looks like:
Base Frieza >>>>>>>>> SSJ Gohan > Weighted Piccolo's Confidence > Ginyu-goma > Tagoma > Ultimate Gohan > Weighted Piccolo's speed feat < Base Gohan < Weighted Piccolo > Krillin > Tien > Roshi

That said, I can see how people could interpret Piccolo or Gohan to be stronger than the other here. I can also see the confusion with Ultimate Gohan. SSJ Gohan clearly surpassed that level by his own implication. The only thing that saves it from 100% being the case is that it was left vague with a "probably" thrown in. But a statement's, a statement and Gohan (the voice of Toei in this scene) is the one who has confused the fandom on this issue.

Crunchyroll subs btw.

It really hasn't. We know that Gohan wasn't as weak as his Cell Saga counterpart because if he was, he wouldn't be pushing back Tagoma who ripped off Piccolo's arm. We also saw base form Gohan fight Piccolo in Episode 30. Nothing in Super ever showed Gohan as weak as you imply. And Gohan in his base form fought a person who was about as strong or stronger than Basil. The same Basil who got hits in on Buu even after he took the fight more seriously. And he was poison. The only thing Episode 89 implied is that he got his old transformation back, which would be way stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart since Gohan's base form back in the Buu Saga was weaker than Namek Saga Freeza.

Why wouldn't Sashimi train? He knew he was going against two legendary Super Saiyans since he thought Trunks was on Earth and he knew those Super Saiyans killed his boss, the former strongest in the universe, and Majin Buu. It is crazy to think that Sashimi, one of the elites, sat on his butt for four months and didn't train. Especially when movie Sashimi was on par with Piccolo. In Super, Freeza and Tagoma got major power boosts, so why would Sashimi be the odd man out and nerf? And, seriously, Sorbet never said that Sashimi was Zarbon/Dodoria's level. It's rank, not power, as Herms started when the movie came out.

I never thought Gohan was that weak, but Episode 89 makes it seem like he's almost that weak if he's been chasing his Buu saga PL this whole time. The clear statements from Piccolo and Gohan in 89 emphatically state that yes, Gohan is trying to get his previous power back. The problem is eps 21 and 22 show us that he surpassed Ultimate already, so in all likelihood, Toei goofed on his level of power in RoF. If you need an in-universe reason, either Piccolo was talking about Ultimate Form in episode 89 or Gohan was flat out wrong in episode 21 and 22 when it came to assessing Tagoma's power and thusly his own.

As far as Shisami, there's nothing to prove either way if he trained or didn't train. If he did train, I'm sure it wasn't significant enough to matter since Frieza wasn't his training partner. So I can't see him beating any of the Z-fighters except Roshi, since I've personally put them well over the Ginyus including the captain since the Android saga. Movie Shisami being on par with Piccolo is still the worst oversight in that movie. They stated he was comparable to Zarbon and Dodoria, didn't say he trained or anything, then expect us to believe he can tangled with Super Piccolo, BS.

[HeroR]

I never thought Gohan was that weak, but Episode 89 makes it seem like he's almost that weak if he's been chasing his Buu saga PL this whole time. The clear statements from Piccolo and Gohan in 89 emphatically state that yes, Gohan is trying to get his previous power back. The problem is eps 21 and 22 show us that he surpassed Ultimate already, so in all likelihood, Toei goofed on his level of power in RoF. If you need an in-universe reason, either Piccolo was talking about Ultimate Form in episode 89 or Gohan was flat out wrong in episode 21 and 22 when it came to assessing Tagoma's power and thusly his own.

As far as Shisami, there's nothing to prove either way if he trained or didn't train. If he did train, I'm sure it wasn't significant enough to matter since Frieza wasn't his training partner. So I can't see him beating any of the Z-fighters except Roshi, since I've personally put them well over the Ginyus including the captain since the Android saga. Movie Shisami being on par with Piccolo is still the worst oversight in that movie. They stated he was comparable to Zarbon and Dodoria, didn't say he trained or anything, then expect us to believe he can tangled with Super Piccolo, BS.

The episode never implied he was chasing his Buu Saga level. Only reaching the level that he should have reached at this point. That is why Goku said that Gohan isn't as strong as he could be, not as he should be.

Toei didn't goof anything since in Toriyama's outline of the movie he said Gohan was the strongest Z-Fighter. He was also the only warrior not tired after all the fighting in the movie.

Again, why wouldn't he train? It make no sense for him not to since he knew what he was up again. The movie never said he trained either and he knocked Piccolo around. And, once again, he was talking about rank not power levels.

To be frank, the show or movie shouldn't have to tell us he trained because it the fact that he could face Piccolo proved that he did. I mean, I like that Toei gave their audience some credit, but apparently no one wants to believe someone can get stronger unless someone say they trained.

[Lord Beerus]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is this real, Toei Animation?
Are you going to make Gohan hold his own against Goku? With a few hours remaining for the tournament?
Someone tell me the logic of this?

Neither did Freeza become that strong in such a short time.

Gohan =/= Freeza.
It's been stated multiple times that Gohan's potential is above everyone else and was even made a plot point on numerous occasions.
Did old Kai not remove the shackles from Gohan, allowing him to utilize his full potential?
I don't understand how it's passable for Gohan to receive absurd power boosts by getting emotional but him training as hard as he can with his shackles removed is not.

Yeah, if anything, Gohan is the sort of person who strength would reasonably spike, with the quality training. And he's been training with Piccolo's assistance since the end of Resurrection F. It wouldn't surprise me if his strength skyrocketed.

[LowRyder2005]

Episode 89 makes it seem like he's almost that weak if he's been chasing his Buu saga PL this whole time. The clear statements from Piccolo and Gohan in 89 emphatically state that yes, Gohan is trying to get his previous power back. The problem is eps 21 and 22 show us that he surpassed Ultimate already, so in all likelihood, Toei goofed on his level of power in RoF. If you need an in-universe reason, either Piccolo was talking about Ultimate Form in episode 89 or Gohan was flat out wrong in episode 21 and 22 when it came to assessing Tagoma's power and thusly his own.

There's quite a handful of statements and situations, actually.

* People feel like Majin Buu is their best bet to take out Freeza's army when Gohan's around even before they discover Gohan has not been training. This may suggest Mr. Buu was already the top dog on Earth, bar Goku and Vegeta.
* Gohan has reportedly not trained around the time ROF takes place. We'd be advocating he became, say, ten times stronger in base form. Although I guess you may argue that he trained a lot after the Buu saga and until BOG? Still seems extremely out of character, all the more so after his current character arc in Super.
* Gotenks feels Tagoma's ki, says it's pretty big and wants to check it out, but when he gets there and knocks out Tagoma he doesn't give him one second glance and focuses on First Form Freeza. This may either be Gotenks acting reckless or feeling that Tagoma, while notable, wasn't much of a challenge in the first place.
* SS Kid Trunks' power (which is handwaved to be inferior to Base Future Trunks', who is about even with Base Goku) was strong enough to be the equivalent of SS Gohan's signal to Goku. I don't think we can give a conclusion on which of the two kiais was stronger, but this alone very clearly establishes that SS Kid Trunks of all people was factually stronger than base Gohan, while the both of them were obviously inferior to base Goku and base Future Trunks. Trunks are Goten are also implied to be weaker than Piccolo in the U6 Arc, since according to Vegeta they are too puny to enter the tournament when unfused.
* Gohan says Piccolo "had been retraining him from scratch" when Goku interrupts, suggesting he's still in the process of getting back in shape.
* Trunks says that he doesn't feel "the same brimming power" from base Gohan when he sees him. Assuming the untransformed Saiyans were weaker than Piccolo at the end of the Buu Saga, he'd actually be feeling the power of a Gohan who is over ten times stronger. I know some people argue that he was referring to SS2 Gohan, but Trunks did also interact with base Cell Games Gohan afterwards.
* Goku actually says that considering "Gohan's original power" he "should've fought better" than the way he fought against Lavender. Goku should reasonably know that Super Saiyan is not the Ultimate form. Super Saiyan Gohan should therefore be inferior to Ultimate Gohan power-wise.
* Piccolo fights Super Saiyan Gohan and says that Gohan "can't even evoke his original power" after his poor showing against an undeterred Piccolo. Technically it's only much after that he states "you possessed another form above Super Saiyan, didn't you". The scene does apparently imply that even his Super Saiyan form is underwhelming.

I'd like to check the instances in which Gohan was hyped up in ROF though in more detail to see if they can be justified in-universe, nevertheless. Though, if you count in everything that happened basically after, Gohan being "stronger than ever" before today seems very improbable.

EDIT: After reading the play-by-play commentary (pretty terrific job, at least in helping someone who didn't want to go through the episodes again), yeah, I don't think the episode looks even remotely convincing anymore in establishing that Gohan was "stronger than ever" or "stronger than Piccolo". Freeza telling us Gohan could've wiped his army by himself is basically irrelevant since every other fighter (bar maybe Roshi?) could've done it as well if they, apparently, had not minded knocking them out without killing them; Tagoma saying Gohan was the strongest guy was based off an estimation. And, by playing devil's advocate, we could also argue that Piccolo could have used extreme weights and that he was more tired than Gohan. He doesn't take the Senzu until after he gets smacked around. But anyway, both Piccolo and base Gohan have basically the same feat of doing squat against Tagoma and the former most certainly didn't have the chance to fight seriously.
The only thing I feel like disagreeing with is that Gohan technically says Tagoma might be "hiding power at least on par with (his) own". Personally speaking, I'm still inclined to believe he was not counting his Ultimate form back there; the vibe I had from the episodes was that he had discounted his Ultimate form pretty quickly and then made a "nothing to lose" try against Tagoma because he - quite literally - has nothing more to lose at that point.

Problem. We don't know how much weight Piccolo has and we don't know how it effect his percentage. So, trying to guess if Piccolo gets a 50% boost off his weighted cloths now is speculative. It can't be neither proven or disproven. And that still doesn't explain why he would suppressed himself against Tagoma after seeing him put a hole through Gohan and then when he attacked him.

Well, it's exactly because you don't know how much weight Piccolo has that you can't conclude he's wrong when claiming Piccolo had a hundred tons on his shoulders. As it usually happens here, you're in fact both speculating, the only difference is that you're advocating the likelihood of an outcome based on some inductive reasoning (which is still anything but absolute, although it tends to give more credibility).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That instance of SS Trunks signalling to Goku is a little suspect.

Freeza's and Tagoma's enormous power weren't present anymore, but Piccolo AND Gohan had been training together for nearly a year, increasing in power tremendously. It's possible that their increases were enough to allow SS Trunks to just edge out the power needed to signal to Goku from Beerus's planet.

It's also possible that Goku simply got better at sensing Ki from such vast distances that Trunks flaring up as a Super Saiyan after the events of Freeza's return, intentionally or not.