Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

$20 says Frieza is stronger than all of them.

Given that he has not been stated to have been surpassed by unmerged mortals, that would kinda be consistent with that.
Would be pretty dumb of course.

There's now way in hell they would be able to sell to me the concept that Golden Freeza is still stronger than Goku and Vegeta. I wouldn't buy that for a fucking second.

[HeroR]

Given that he has not been stated to have been surpassed by unmerged mortals, that would kinda be consistent with that.
Would be pretty dumb of course.

There's now way in hell they would be able to sell to me the concept that Golden Freeza is still stronger than Goku and Vegeta. I wouldn't buy that for a fucking second.

Huh, Black was called the strongest unmerged character and Vegeta was closed to that level. And the show have said several times that Goku and Vegeta has gotten stronger like the rematched between Goku and Hit, so where is this narrative that Golden Freeza maybe stronger coming from?

If anything, Freeza's returning will kill the narrative that the power levels were retcon since Goku fought true form Freeza in his base form.

It would definitely be some bullshit if Golden Frieza was still stronger.

Super Saiyan Rose Black originally was already much more powerful than Golden Frieza. Whis said that Goku and Vegeta working together would take down Frieza but Black was kicking the two of them and Trunks around at the same time and Goku and Vegeta were even stronger at this point.

Then Black powered up twice and by the end of the saga Goku and Vegeta were stronger than him.

There should be no conceivable way that Golden Frieza should be stronger but you never know what'll happen in this show.

Goku nor Vegeta were stronger than Black at the end of the saga. He is officially recognized as the strongest character after Beerus if we don't count the fusions.

[Bullza]

Goku nor Vegeta were stronger than Black at the end of the saga. He is officially recognized as the strongest character after Beerus if we don't count the fusions.

That was said by a producer, it was just what he thought and was said as of an unknown point in the story.

[HeroR]

Goku nor Vegeta were stronger than Black at the end of the saga. He is officially recognized as the strongest character after Beerus if we don't count the fusions.

That was said by a producer, it was just what he thought and was said as of an unknown point in the story.

He's the producer of that arc giving him more authority than anyone outside of Toriyama when it comes to the anime. He approves of every script and what the story will be. Meaning, what he says is basically word of god unless Toriyama chimes in and he called Black the strongest character after Beerus if you don't count fusions. It also wasn't said as an unknown since he was asked who was strongest out of everyone in the poster, and he named Black the strongest despite him not even being in the picture. Meaning, that he didn't want to say if Vegetto or Merged Zamasu was the strongest, but he had no problem naming Black. We also saw Black surpassed his own limits before fusing and he was screwing with Goku and Vegeta.

At this point, trying to say Black wasn't the strongest is just denial.

[TAF108]

Freeza should be outclassed by now. He wasn't THAT much stronger than Goku & Vegeta, who have powered up significantly.

[Marlowe89]

Episode 89 never said he was back to his Buu Saga's strength. It only said he got his old power back, meaning he can turn Ultimate.

Yes it did. Piccolo explicitly said Gohan couldn't even invoke his original strength; the literary meaning of the phrase "original strength" is "how strong X was originally". That statement refers to a specific power level.

Moreover, if the instances of "power" in the episode happened to be the Japanese word chikara then that would also refer to a specific degree of force or strength, not just an ability - in which case, the characters would have repeatedly been saying that Gohan simply wasn't as strong as he was in the Buu arc.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I agree with HeroR... Frieza coming back could help with the whole 2 base theory, hopefully he fights Base Goku again or even Frost, to finally clear things up.

[HeroR]

Episode 89 never said he was back to his Buu Saga's strength. It only said he got his old power back, meaning he can turn Ultimate.

Yes it did. Piccolo explicitly said Gohan couldn't even invoke his original strength; the literary meaning of the phrase "original strength" is "how strong X was originally". That statement refers to a specific power level.

Moreover, if the instances of "power" in the episode happened to be the Japanese word chikara then that would also refer to a specific degree of force or strength, not just an ability - in which case, the characters would have repeatedly been saying that Gohan simply wasn't as strong as he was in the Buu arc.

Depends on how you read 'original strength' since he can easily just mean, 'you can't even go 'Ultimate' even more. For example, if Goku lost Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but he kept training and got his base form stronger, would his Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan be exactly as strong as it was when he lost it?

I agree with HeroR... Frieza coming back could help with the whole 2 base theory, hopefully he fights Base Goku again or even Frost, to finally clear things up.

It wouldn't help the two-base theory since we know Goku had no god ki fighting Freeza. That was explicitly said.

[DBZ Macky]

Copy-Vegeta tanks SS3 Gotenks' attacks and "Base" Goku should be stronger than or equal to Copy-Vegeta. Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc was stated to be "a little stronger" than SS3 Gotenks, and current Base/SS/SS2 Gohan was stated to be weaker than his "Original self".
Going by the statements, we can agree on this right:

"Base" Goku >= Copy-Vegeta >>> Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks >> SS2 Gohan

So then how is Gohan able to fight in par with Goku on equal forms? Is Goku holding back? If he is, then there's no reason to use him as a measuring stick anyways. I don't see how you can make sense out of this without the "Two-Base theory".

What makes it so hard to accept the theory? We already have official backing with that recent article and it isn't contradicted by anything either.

[HeroR]

Copy-Vegeta tanks SS3 Gotenks' attacks and "Base" Goku should be stronger than or equal to Copy-Vegeta. Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc was stated to be "a little stronger" than SS3 Gotenks, and current Base/SS/SS2 Gohan was stated to be weaker than his "Original self".
Going by the statements, we can agree on this right:

"Base" Goku >= Copy-Vegeta >>> Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks >> SS2 Gohan

So then how is Gohan able to fight in par with Goku on equal forms? Is Goku holding back? If he is, then there's no reason to use him as a measuring stick anyways. I don't see how you can make sense out of this without the "Two-Base theory".

What makes it so hard to accept the theory? We already have official backing with that recent article and it isn't contradicted by anything either.

Goku held back. He did it against Krillin when he used Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan on him when he could have pounded Krillin without transforming. Roshi also fought 'evenly' with Goku, yet no one says that Roshi is equal to base form Goku or Goku isn't using god ki, that's why he's weak.

Two-base theory doesn't work because the two-base theory goes on the notion that Goku has a base form with god ki. He fought final form Freeza and everyone sensed him until he went Blue. He fought both Frost and Hit in base, yet no one noted that Goku got stronger while fighting Hit in his base form.

And what recent article?

[Marlowe89]

For example, if Goku lost Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but he kept training and got his base form stronger, would his Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan be exactly as strong as it was when he lost it?

He wouldn't be exactly as strong, no, and if base Gohan post-weakening is indeed still stronger than the base Gohan who trained with Supreme Kai, his Ultimate form would probably be a bit stronger than it was during the Buu arc. We don't know that at all, but I'm willing to acknowledge the possibility.

But that's not what my post was concerned with. I'm focusing specifically on what Piccolo told Gohan prior to him re-unlocking Ultimate, which is that he couldn't invoke his original strength -- and unless we're now abandoning the literary meaning of phrases and assuming the words don't mean what they actually mean, the statement would have to refer to how strong Gohan was originally. My point isn't so much concerned with Ultimate Gohan as it is Super Saiyan 1-2 Gohan.

[HeroR]

For example, if Goku lost Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but he kept training and got his base form stronger, would his Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan be exactly as strong as it was when he lost it?

He wouldn't be exactly as strong, no, and if base Gohan post-weakening is indeed still stronger than the base Gohan who trained with Supreme Kai, his Ultimate form could be a bit stronger than it was during the Buu arc. We don't know that at all, but I'm willing to acknowledge the possibility.

But that's not what my post was concerned with. I'm focusing specifically on what Piccolo told Gohan prior to him re-unlocking Ultimate, which is that he couldn't invoke his original strength -- and unless we're now abandoning the literary meaning of phrases and assuming the words don't mean what they actually mean, the statement would have to refer to how strong Gohan was originally.

Problem is that Goku said that Gohan wasn't as strong as he could be. Not that he wasn't as strong as he was before, or least something to that extent. The way Goku phase it made it sound like Gohan wasn't vastly weaker, but he wasn't where he should have been if he kept training. Kind of like how Vegeta called Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from Buu Saga vastly weaker than he was against Cell.

[TheMikado]

Frieza could have always mediated and gotten to a higher state of being like Piccolo while in hell. Something like that could make him the strongest pretty easily and give Goku a legitimate reason for asking Frieza to join.

[Triggered Vegeta]

HeroR... either way, if Base Goku is able to fight 4th form again, that'd at least prove Base form power hasn't been retcon. I just hope they fight again.

[Marlowe89]

Problem is that Goku said that Gohan wasn't as strong as he could be. Not that he wasn't as strong as he was before, or least something to that extent. The way Goku phase it made it sound like Gohan wasn't vastly weaker, but he wasn't where he should have been if he kept training. Kind of like how Vegeta called Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from Buu Saga vastly weaker than he was against Cell.

Goku just said "Considering Gohan's original power, he should have been able to do better", which English-wise is ambiguous regarding the nature of how Gohan compares to his old Buu self; again, though, if Goku's usage of "power" was the Japanese chikara (and that's what it sounded like) then Goku absolutely would have been referring to Gohan's strength in the same manner that Piccolo referred to it. It would have meant "original strength".

Either way, it hardly negates what Piccolo said during their training, so I don't see how it's a problem.

[HeroR]

Problem is that Goku said that Gohan wasn't as strong as he could be. Not that he wasn't as strong as he was before, or least something to that extent. The way Goku phase it made it sound like Gohan wasn't vastly weaker, but he wasn't where he should have been if he kept training. Kind of like how Vegeta called Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from Buu Saga vastly weaker than he was against Cell.

Goku just said "Considering Gohan's original power, he should have been able to do better", which English-wise is ambiguous regarding the nature of how Gohan compares to his old Buu self; again, though, if Goku's usage of "power" was the Japanese chikara (and that's what it sounded like) then Goku absolutely would have been referring to Gohan's strength in the same manner that Piccolo referred to it.

Either way, it hardly negates what Piccolo said during their training, so I don't see how it's a problem.

Which I took as, 'considering where he's at now, he should be stronger'. Kind of like what Goku said about Gohan in the Buu Saga.

But I don't know enough Japanese to go against your argument. I am just saying that I don't think Gohan was vastly weaker than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga and when he regained the form it would be stronger than before, not exactly the same.

[Marlowe89]

I am just saying that I don't think Gohan was vastly weaker than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga and when he regained the form it would be stronger than before, not exactly the same.

Then I suppose I can agree with you to an extent. My point was merely that if we abide by the literary meaning of Piccolo's statement then Super's SS2 Gohan shouldn't be as strong as Buu arc's Ultimate Gohan. However, if the gap between Buu arc's SS2 Gohan and Buu arc's Ultimate Gohan is LARGER than the gap between Super's SS2 Gohan and Buu arc's Ultimate Gohan, then yes, logically-speaking Gohan should be stronger than ever now. And he probably is.

Is it a vast improvement? I don't personally think so, but I don't think our opinions here would matter at this point considering that Gohan is about to become even stronger than we see him in Episode 88 according to the episode's dialogue. I believe he's inevitably bound to leave that level of power in the dust anyway, especially if that advertisement about him "surpassing his father" holds any real weight.

[HeroR]

I am just saying that I don't think Gohan was vastly weaker than his Ultimate self from the Buu Saga and when he regained the form it would be stronger than before, not exactly the same.

Then I suppose I can agree with you to an extent. My point was merely that if we abide by the literary meaning of Piccolo's statement then Super's SS2 Gohan shouldn't be as strong as Buu arc's Ultimate Gohan. However, if the gap between Buu arc's SS2 Gohan and Buu arc's Ultimate Gohan is LARGER than the gap between Super's SS2 Gohan and Buu arc's Ultimate Gohan, then yes, logically-speaking Gohan should be stronger than ever now. And he probably is.

Is it a vast improvement? I don't personally think so, but I don't think our opinions here would matter at this point considering that Gohan is about to become even stronger than we see him in Episode 88 according to the episode's dialogue. I believe he's inevitably bound to leave that level of power in the dust anyway, especially if that advertisement about him "surpassing his father" holds any real weight.

That's fair. In the grand scheme of things, how much stronger Ultimate Gohan was in Episode 88 to his Buu Saga counterpart is a moot point. He isn't fighting in a tournament at this level and we have incomplete data until Episode 90.

[ZombieVito]

Goku held back. He did it against Krillin when he used Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan on him when he could have pounded Krillin without transforming. Roshi also fought 'evenly' with Goku, yet no one says that Roshi is equal to base form Goku or Goku isn't using god ki, that's why he's weak.

Two-base theory doesn't work because the two-base theory goes on the notion that Goku has a base form with god ki. He fought final form Freeza and everyone sensed him until he went Blue. He fought both Frost and Hit in base, yet no one noted that Goku got stronger while fighting Hit in his base form.

And what recent article?

Huh? This is flat out incorrect.

Having the power of Super Saiyan God in base =/= Having god ki.

Saiyan beyondd God doesn't have god ki. The end of the BoG arc proved as much.

It was information on volume F. It said Saiyans can have the power of Super Saiyan God without changing forms. It's a few pages back, you'll have no problem finding it.

[HeroR]

Goku held back. He did it against Krillin when he used Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan on him when he could have pounded Krillin without transforming. Roshi also fought 'evenly' with Goku, yet no one says that Roshi is equal to base form Goku or Goku isn't using god ki, that's why he's weak.

Two-base theory doesn't work because the two-base theory goes on the notion that Goku has a base form with god ki. He fought final form Freeza and everyone sensed him until he went Blue. He fought both Frost and Hit in base, yet no one noted that Goku got stronger while fighting Hit in his base form.

And what recent article?

Huh? This is flat out incorrect.

Having the power of Super Saiyan God in base =/= Having god ki.

Saiyan beyondd God doesn't have god ki. The end of the BoG arc proved as much.

It was information on volume F. It said Saiyans can have the power of Super Saiyan God without changing forms. It's a few pages back, you'll have no problem finding it.

Okay, so what is this super powerful base form made of and why does a weaker base form even exists? And didn't anyone noticed the different between base form Goku against Frost then the one who fought Hit?

Most of all, this statement only supports Toriyama saying that Goku didn't need Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed it. Not that he suddenly have two-base forms that no on within the show mentions.